Internet Phamous?

[space boy]

Duhhh, a placebo is hardly going to work unless you claim that it will.

Duh, to you too. Did I ever say anything that would contradict that?

Kind of like how magicians never say "actually, the bunny was in the hat the whole time... you just paid to see me man-handle a rabbit." Are magicians fraudulent because they aren't actually sawing your grandma in half?

Magician and doctor are two entirely different proffesions and you can't really compare magical tricks to medical treatment.

And if the homeopathist... person believes in the cure themselves, it's naturally going to make the patient believe in it too. Which will cure them even better.

And if we all sit in a circle and believe really strongly together we can make ourselves levitate!

I'm not saying psychiatrists are fraudulent quacks, I'm just saying that there isn't much difference between doctors and herbalists and psychotherapists and psychics...

There is a huge difference which is obvious if you just look at those people. If you don't see it though I can explain it to you if you wish.

I know plenty of people who...

I could stop right here. Anegdotal evidence is no evidence.
Dividing medicine into "mainstream" and "alternative" is a false dichotomy. There is only medicine that either works or doesnt work(at which point you cant really call it medicine and homeopathy false under that). "alternative" is the stuff that didnt go through the scientific filter. "all the drugs in the world" is an absolute and unfounded statement and i can't really take it seriously. You may debate the effectiveness of "alternative medicine" all you want. Scientific evidence speaks for itself.

[mouthuvmine]

And the lovely Ivy has been ** drumroll** hijacked. Since I don't belive either of you are doctors, palm readers, or magicians, you're just bouncing opinions against each other. Here's mine. The guy's an ass because he runs from junk peddler to junk peddler proving to the world that their junk is, in fact, junk. There's no basis behing it, it dosen't work, and they should all feel very stupid now. At the same time, all that junk isn't really helping anyone. Who cares if it makes them happy. This is not a pride parade!
Then to the guys credit, he just doing the same thing the palm readers are...making money doing something that, in the end won't help anyone.

And to the ivy : Congradulations! It was quite a funny peice

[space boy]

And the lovely Ivy has been ** drumroll** hijacked.

Oops, sorry. No more offtopic from me. I just felt I had to put some things straight, but we can take it to another topic.

Yeah, congrats Ivy! For some reason I thought I already commented on that... sorry again for messing up the topic. >.>

[Emerald]

Duh, to you too. Did I ever say anything that would contradict that?

Yes, you said that homeopathy is fraudulent because they claim it works when it supposedly doesn't. Which is stupid, because by that same logic magicians are fraudulent because they claim that there's no bunny in the hat prior to tapping it with a wand. (What does that have anything to do with comparing magic to medicine?)


All I'm saying is that ignoring the importance of things like religion, homeopathic remedies, chiropractors, acupuncture and anything else one might consider 'unscientific' is just plain ignorant.

Over the course of history I'd say prayer, meditation, and placebos have saved far more lives than Paxil and Acetaminophen. Maybe not directly, but everyone knows at least one person who's found new meaning in life through the bible, or was cured from a disease/pain simply by believing in someone's healing powers.

'Debasing' people's personal beliefs on national television is about the most abhorent thing you could do, in my book. If you want to spread your own beliefs with like-minded people, that's fine, but making money through petty argument under the guise of "educating the world about these dreadful pseudo-sciences" is cockery most foul.




P.S. Sorry for hi-jacking. (Although by 'hi-jacking', I mean posting continuously without letting other people in on the debate. I'm pretty sure so far we've danced within the boundaries of what can be considered on-topic. Unless of course the whole point of this thread is to talk about Ivy and how awesome she is... Which is a worthy topic, but I figured it was more far-reaching than that... (and somehow I doubt it's what Ivy intended))

[MrColossal]

Over the course of history I'd say prayer, meditation, and placebos have saved far more lives than Paxil and Acetaminophen. Maybe not directly, but everyone knows at least one person who's found new meaning in life through the bible, or was cured from a disease/pain simply by believing in someone's healing powers.

What ended polio? What ended the black plague? What can treat and often times defeat cancer? What ended small pox? What has SIGNIFICANTLY increased the life span of a person with HIV/AIDS? What has SIGNIFICANTLY increased the life span of humanity?

It wasn't wishful thinking and sitting in a quiet room and thinking about Jesus... You are so, so wrong about everything, basically, that it's very hard to even BEGIN to rebut your comments.

Either it works or it doesn't, Emerald... The scientific method is a tool used to determine that. Acupuncture, homeopathy, chiropractic claims of healing sickness, prayer, psychic surgery, etc.. They have all failed. If you make a claim and that claim doesn't happen, you've failed. It's very simple. If you some day in the future get cancer, who is the FIRST person you will run to to fix you?

[Emerald]

That's a very good point. But it's irrelevant. This isn't about medicine. This isn't even medicine versus alternative stuff. I'm not some nut who's saying throw away your medicine cabinet contents and get a voodoo staff, I'm saying, for the people who believe that a voodoo dance would help them, that their beliefs should not be questioned.

Saying "Actually, Mr. terminal patient, I'm afraid praying to God will not help 'cause he's not real. Neither will a herbologist, 'cause we tested it in a lab, and didn't find anything in the stuff. Sorry, but you're totally screwed. Buh-bye," is not constructive. It's destructive. It's not helping anyone, it's just masturbating Mr. Dawkin's ego. Because he is a cock.

[space boy]

What's with the cock obsession dude. Stop repeating that, we get the idea.

[The Ivy]

Heh, no worries about the thread "hijacking." Obviously I care about the atheism debate or I wouldn't have written the comic (thanks for all the kind words, by the way. ).

Personally, as someone who's about to head into a science career, I can't help but see the dangers of homeopathic "placebos." If someone in your family is seriously ill, but they've been convinced that non-medical treatments could help them, it could cost them their life. It's unethical to treat ineffective treatments like they deserve the same "chance" to work. As Eric said, we've got the scientific method to tell us what works and what doesn't.

I think a lot of the misunderstanding comes from the thinking that, "Hmm, this diluted herbal solution* could help me feel better, so I should be allowed to try it." I forget whether it was Dawkins or Hitchens who pointed this out, but a lot of people commit a mathematical error with this thinking. People who pursue herbal solutions tend to think theres a 50% chance of success: either the treatment works or it doesn't. However, the likelihood of some random herb working to treat your problem is more like .02% (or less, probably). I'm not saying modern medicine is flawless, but mathematically, it's really your best shot at getting better.

And re: Emerald, while I see where you're coming from in saying Dawkins crushes people's dreams, I prefer to think he's out to expose bad logic. People commit logical fallacies all the time, e.g. by assuming something works just because lots of people believe in it (appeal to popularity) or believing something is better because it is new (appeal to novelty). I took a course in critical thinking and believe me, once you start seeing bad logic, you realize it's everywhere.

*A common homeopathic remedy. Google it if you want to depress yourself a little.

[space boy]

Since it's ok to discuss that here I'm going to post the response to Emerald I pmed him earlier.

Yes, you said that homeopathy is fraudulent because they claim it works when it supposedly doesn't. Which is stupid, because by that same logic magicians are fraudulent because they claim that there's no bunny in the hat prior to tapping it with a wand. (What does that have anything to do with comparing magic to medicine?)

Magicians are not fraudulent because magicians actually don't hide the fact that their "magic" is just tricks. They may claim it to be "real magic" for the purposes of the show but an honest magician asked if he has real supernatural powers will say no. The comparison of medicine and magic is just pretty weak in my eyes for the reason i stated above.

All I'm saying is that ignoring the importance of things like religion, homeopathic remedies, chiropractors, acupuncture and anything else one might consider 'unscientific' is just plain ignorant.

These things have not been ignored and have been tested scientifically many times and just don't stand the test.

Over the course of history I'd say prayer, meditation, and placebos have saved far more lives than Paxil and Acetaminophen. Maybe not directly, but everyone knows at least one person who's found new meaning in life through the bible, or was cured from a disease/pain simply by believing in someone's healing powers.

Again, what you say there is unscientific and anecdotal.

'Debasing' people's personal beliefs on national television is about the most abhorent thing you could do, in my book. If you want to spread your own beliefs with like-minded people, that's fine, but making money through petty argument under the guise of "educating the world about these dreadful pseudo-sciences" is cockery most foul.

Like i said, lots of the people Dawkins fights against are actually a threat. He's not attacking innocent people for no reason. He has very good reasons to put the claims of these people to the test. They are not just private individuals who practice their beliefs for themselves. Their actions influence and can actually hurt other people.

[Haddas]

Not taking sides here.

I believe this is a testament to human stupidity and not to religion.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html

[MrColossal]

And no one, especially Dawkins should be allowed to tell the parents that what they did was disgusting and wrong.

[Emerald]

http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/can-prayer-heal


Yay, I found an article on the internet that supports my point. I pwn intellectual debates... w00t.

People who pursue herbal solutions tend to think theres a 50% chance of success: either the treatment works or it doesn't. However, the likelihood of some random herb working to treat your problem is more like .02% (or less, probably).

Again, in further reiteration: it's about personal belief - i.e. the placebo effect - not actual medicinal qualities. Dawkins is a cock, et cetera. You people have totally made me bored with that phrase now... shame on you...

[space boy]

Your arguments have been pretty weak so far. You are just an ad hominem gun.

[TwinMoon]

Forgot to post here, but congratulations Ivy! Nice comic!


And, on the danger of resparking this furious debate:

Anyone giving someone water with a little flavour added to it and charging 5.99 for it, is just robbing credulous people, and they know it.

Or are you one of those people who would rather see everyone miserable, than blissfully ignorant...? Because, really, what is ignorance? Wasn't the world a much more magical place when Santa flew through the night skies, bringing you whatever you wanted?

And there we have it. Santa really gives everyone presents, because it makes us feel all warm and fuzzy inside to believe that.
It's scary to realise that that's not reality, but when you get used to the idea the fear will go away, and you'll be a person with one false idea less.

To quote Dick Dawkins when someone said to him 'There's got to be more to life than this' : "Isn't this enough?"