Adventure Game Studio

I've searched through the forum, but couldn't find anything similar, so here's a tribute thread to one of the greatest musicians of all time, John Lennon, who unfortunately was shot 25 years ago by the Dakota apartment-building in New York City. I might not've lived during his lifetime, but that doesn't stop me from listening to and enjoying all the great songs he has composed/written in the past. I hope his murderer feels guilty and regrets what he's done, because murdering a great person who did so much good music and had a strong influence on rock, is just sick, in my opinion.

So, are there anymore Lennon-fans who wants to spend a few minutes writing a tribute-post to him? I sure hope so. ;P

25... I wasn't even born back then. Yet I have my own reasons of feeling sorry for the event and angry for the shooter, who just wanted publicity. A great band, a great band, The Beatles I must admit, and John Lennon, what a great artist. Not only was he then, but his songs will never die. Well, I guess he just got too good and popular for his own good. 25 years ago we had a moment that silenced the whole world, I shall have mine now. And as a fan in general, I shall put my word for George Harrison too who assed away a few years ago. Nevertheless, there ought not to be too much grief, no-one would want that. Hey, all you need is love, and that we shall have, right ;)

I've had the urge to play some of his hits, but I know it's not what he'd want.

The real tragedy is not Lennon's death, but the scandal he made to those that were innocent... even 25 years later. Some of his songs gave terrible messages, and some of his albums with Yoko-Ono were plain pornographic. It's also sad that he never was able to patch up his broken relations with his band member & friend, Paul Mccartney. He was talented, but full of himself. This brought the band to its demise.

If Lennon would have been still alive, I'm sure he would have never made that album with the other band members, made a few years back.

What?

The post confuses me quite a bit. So a man making some albums is worse than his death?

John claimes that he was about the music. And that the other band members (mainly "fucckking" McCartney) were in it for the glory. He claimed he was the "true artist."

He also said he hated the fans at his concerts whom shouted and that they didn't understand his music and they need to listen to something else.

Quote from: Largo on Thu 08/12/2005 19:50:03
...because murdering a great person who did so much good music and had a strong influence on rock, is just sick, in my opinion...

So if Chapman was murdering somebody else, say someone unfamous, he wouldn't be sick?
Just something that struck me as strange!

I like the Beatles and I like Lennon's music. I also like McCartney's music. And everybody's else. I've heard that generally they didn't get allong very well, but I guess that every detail will be left over as a myth better than a fact...

As far as I know he was a great man, a great musician, a great thinker and a great leader. It is a shame...

I talk to John one day on hollywood and vine , had a nice talk about diff things and he was a charming man.
I still feel sad to this day anout his death.

Quote from: MrColossalSo a man making some albums is worse than his death?

That's not what i said.

QuoteThe real tragedy is not Lennon's death, but the scandal he made to those that were innocent... even 25 years later. Some of his songs gave terrible messages, and some of his albums with Yoko-Ono were plain pornographic.

Yes, I would think that the real tragedy was that he died and not that he made some albums you don't like.

You must really be a Lennon fan to get so picky about words. I hear what he's saying, man (notice the hippie speak? Did ya?? My own tribute to Lennon!)

Seriously, I hate Lennon and Ono and her stupid bloody camera ads. I especially hate the Beatles and Paul McCartney (arrogant tosser).

I have no particular beef with G. Harrison though I do love Ringo. What a DUDE! Thomas the Tank Engine, and the Simpsons. He rocks.

I couldn't give less of a shit about Lennon's death and I'll agree with rharpe that his music is a bigger tragedy because although he was always gonna die at some point, but I'm still forced to occasionally listen to his music.

Quote from: MrColossalYes, I would think that the real tragedy was that he died and not that he made some albums you don't like.

Agreed. Agreed with every bone in my body.

Quote from: rharpe on Fri 09/12/2005 00:26:04

Quote from: MrColossalSo a man making some albums is worse than his death?

That's not what i said.

QuoteThe real tragedy is not Lennon's death, but the scandal he made to those that were innocent... even 25 years later. Some of his songs gave terrible messages, and some of his albums with Yoko-Ono were plain pornographic.

But that IS what you said. You said the tragedy wasn't his death. Then you said the real tragedy was that his music had some "bad" messages (and let's face it, asking for peace and saying you're a walrus are BAD messages). The way you have weighed things (i.e. placing Lennon's death as "not a tragedy" and his music's messages in the "tragedy" category) means that you think the messages in his music were worse than the fact he was murdered.

Which leaves me to reply, "Umm, have you got your priorities right?"

Also:

QuoteIf Lennon would have been still alive, I'm sure he would have never made that album with the other band members, made a few years back.

Yes, I think that if a musician were alive there'd be less chance of him making a reunion album than if he were dead. I'm also looking forward to Zombie Cobain's reunion with the rest of Nirvana.

I'm going to say the same thing here as I said to my friends when Reagan died:
He died.  It's sad.  Many people liked him, and weather or not you agreed with his messages, he was a well loved man who died tragically.

Rharpe go ahead and correct me if I'm wrong, but basically his messages that you find offensive would be about him being a vastly influential figure with a strong leftist, secular agenda, right? Just so the people of this thread can make more sense of where you're coming from.

Cause being a lefty is worse than killing lefties. Hey, sounds like a Maddox article...

"I HATE HIPPIES, KILL THEM ALL lol

23,563 people think Hippies are deserving of death"

Kinoko: Why so much hate? You actually mean that you don't mind him dying but you mind listening to his music? That's, that's, that's....

rharpe: you did sound exactly as your post suggests. and as everybody thinks...

I think that Lennon was deified by his murder, which is really strange. I think people put too much weight on him, and his legacy and he isn't alive to live it down.

He wanted people to make the world better by believing in themselves, not blindly following someone else. My making yourself better, you make the world better. In a way, after his death, he became everything he worked against.

Now people go around quoting "Imagine" like it's a mantra, and they can barely name any other Plastic-Ono Band songs.  People take what they like and discard the rest.

Bt

Look, now this is just it. You're all only jumping on this bandwagon because rharpe said that about omfg!11 John Lennon.

Were this a thread about, say... Rolf Harris or the Pretenders, you'd all keep your mouths shut and understand that it doesn't -MATTER- that he doesn't shed a tear of baby laughter at the mention of John Lennon's death. He's a famous figure, and hence not a terribly real person in most people's lives. You know what? I rather hope John Howard gets raped by a camel.

Is it gonna happen? Unlikely. Will John Howard feel bad that I said that? Even less likely because he'll never know. Me saying I don't give a crap about John Lennon's death didn't receive much of a response at all, but rharpe making somewhat of a wise-crack about JL's music being shit has got you all clinging to your PC Bibles.

Seriously, I'm a little disappointed.

Nik: Look, I like you, but grow a sense of humour, okay :) Shit-talking, people. Shit talking.

But no, I don't care that he died. Why should I? You're all just offended because YOU like John Lennon and god forbid some other people don't. Or at least, they don't worship him. I actually hate him, his music shits me, and it's crap and boring. I'd be upset if, say, Alice Cooper died. I'd be upset if Michael Jackson were indeed found guilty of child molestation. These are people whose music means something to me and so I'd be sad to see them out of the scene (although they both are anyway).

I don't like the Beatles, I don't like John Lennon, I'm actually rather glad they didn't have the chance to keep going so I'd have even more of their music to avoid.


Oh, and I don't wanna hear anyone talk shit about Maddox >:|

I really don't like the beatles or john lennon, for one. In fact oversaturation of beatles songs (or anyone's songs really) irritates me as much as anyone, and I'm not defending him, but I don't see the point of posting on a 'tribute' thread of some dead guy to say that he sucks or his music was bad or the things he stands for are awful.

So you'd be sad if someone who's music mattered to you died, so you come into a Lennon tribute thread to tell people who feel Lennon's music mattered to get a life?

I'm confused.

Also, I don't have an opinion one way or the other for The Beatles or Lennon as a musician. I don't listen to either, I've heard maybe 2 albums all the way through, what I'm surprised at is that Rharpe who I thought was a religious guy would be able to say that the tragedy wasn't a human life being lost but that some of his music was bad.

Also also, DG likes Maddox.

edit:

"Me saying I don't give a crap about John Lennon's death didn't receive much of a response at all, but rharpe making somewhat of a wise-crack about JL's music being shit has got you all clinging to your PC Bibles."

Nikolas said something it seems, what type of response would you like? And what are you talking about, PC Bibles?

Quote from: MrColossal on Fri 09/12/2005 01:47:26
Also also, DG likes Maddox.

DG is Maddox, it's just another one of his jokes....That wacky Jokester...

I just wanted to back rharpse up a bit, by giving some people a little perspective.

MC: I did NOT come here telling everyone here to get a life, but I told them not to be so stiff. rharpse just made a slightly smart ass comment about JL's music. He wasn't seriously wishing grief upon a man's family.

There's just no way you guys would have made a big deal about that comment if it were directed at a "lesser" star.

Re: DG & Maddox - fair enough. All is well.

For those that cannot understand what I'm trying to say:
1. I don't like John Lennon.
2. The real tragedy is that his work has had a lasting bad influence over the 25 years.
3. The albums he has made had pr0n covers with Yoko Ono.
4. He was selfish.
5. The world praises him as a great martyr, saint, etc... He's not.
6. He may have died tragically, but so have so many others that have gone unrecognized.

You may all look up to him as a god, (notice: the "g" is lowercase,) but he is far from it.

why did you come to a Lennon tribute thread to tell people how much you hate Lennon then?

Kinoko, I don't care if he's a star, he was a human being and now he is dead. He was a man that was murdered.

which fits in with this:

6. He may have died tragically, but so have so many others that have gone unrecognized.

So which dead people deserve to be mourned and which don't?

Quote2. The real tragedy is that his work has had a lasting bad influence over the 25 years.

explain

Lennon was the direct inspiration for Linkin Park, American Idol and R. Kelly's Trapped In The Closet Helm.

It's an open thread, I don't see why someone can't come here to express a different opinion on the subject. If the OP had specified "Please, no negative posts" I would have refrained. If there was a thread on how great cricket was, I'd probably pop in to say how stupid cricket was. If there were a thread on how great volleyball was, Ã, I wouldn't care. I really, really think cricket is dumb and the same goes for John Lennon. I also find that Beatles fans tend to get a little carried away with thinking the world is in unison in terms of love for them. I reckon it gives you guys just a little perspective. Keeps you on your toes, perhaps.

Think of it also like me butting in on a thread about how great the Nazis were. I'd be all, "No way man, they sucked!". Sometimes you feel it's your duty to help people with bad opinions by expressing your opposite one.

I guess this makes me a bit of a Jehovah's Witness... O_O

EDIT: Oh god, don't even get me started on how annoyed I was at the Australia Idol Beatles special. As if the Beatles were a freaking genre of music!

My intentions were not to make people mad, but as is always the case, I differ in the tribute opinion. *embarrassed* I didn't realize it was an official tribute post. My mistake.

So, for tribute posts, a person isn't allowed to post their dislike for the person(s) that the post is tributed to? *slaps hand and goes to sit in a corner*

I guess I would be classified as a tribute-post picketer. :) (Just a little lite humor) *no one laughs*

Notice I never said you couldn't. I asked why you would.

I hope your fight against Beatles fans goes well, Kinoko.

So I guess I'll go back to clutching my PC bible... Whaever that means, I guess I was being politically correct in some way?

I don't know about political correctness, but surprisingly enough the fact that "meh, cricket is stupid" isn't the same thing as "meh, he didn't deserve to live anyway" seems to need pointing out.

I was afraid I was going to get a call from my sister today about this mess, but she spared me becuase I didn't bring up Frank Zappa's death's 12th anniversery on Sunday.

I suppose I should just log back off until 2018 until it's time to make my own "It's been 25 years" thread..

If you don't understand it now after my example of John Howard and the camel, you'll probably never get it.

And if you don't understand the fact that for me and Helm and I'm assuming Fuzz, it's about a human being dying, not a star, then you'll never get it either. So that's that then!

Quote from: Kinoko on Fri 09/12/2005 01:40:52
Were this a thread about, say... Rolf Harris or the Pretenders, you'd all keep your mouths shut

Hey! I love The Pretenders!

They give me a sense of purpose, a real sense of purpose, now.

Quote from: MrColossal on Fri 09/12/2005 01:47:26
Also also, DG likes Maddox.

I do. And like Sesame Street, Mr T and other things I like, I make fun of Maddox.

Quote from: Squinky on Fri 09/12/2005 01:51:10
DG is Maddox, it's just another one of his jokes....That wacky Jokester...

Fuck it. I'm everyone. The internet is just a bunch of fake accounts created by me. AND I FOOL YUO ALL!!1 (and by yuo, and really mean me)


Listen, have whatever opinion you want of Lennon. If you love him, hate him, whatever, fine. Post it here. No big deal. I'm fine with it.

Hoever, when someone say things like "The real tragedy is that Lennon's music was distasteful and not the fact that he died" they can only expect people to go "Hey, wait, that's a fucked thing to say!"

I like Lennon, sure. I prefered the Beatles as a whole though. I dug their music. I also think that it's very sad he died. And not just died, but murdered. And I find it sad when someone who creates something with such great depth gets killed. There is so much potential wasted.

I've always thought Lennon was an elitist ass-hole, but I agree his death was a tragedy....

I can't help but think he has been made more interesting to people because of his death. It kinda being "cool" to like him....

I also think that if he didn't die that way, he would have spiraled into obscurity.....

And DG, why do you hate Idaho so much?
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=idaho_blows

Like Tu Pac and Kurt Cobain.　How many shirts would those guys be on if they have lived? My god, if I see one more picture of Tu Pac with wings and a halo... I guess I'll be exactly the same. If it happens today though I'll probably laugh at the coincidence.

"i hope he gaets raped by a camel lol ^_^" is such an ingenious bit of philosophy.

You guys obviously just don't get how deep and expansive it is.

Pff, since when do I spells gets like "gaets".

Anyway, your cutting sarcasm just goes towards my point. It's NOT deep and philosophical, it's talking crap that doesn't matter. Some serious-minded people take it the wrong way and start thinking you actually place no value on a human life.

Quote from: Squinky on Fri 09/12/2005 03:08:44
I also think that if he didn't die that way, he would have spiraled into obscurity.....

I don't know about that. Ray Charles and Johnny Cash both died naturally and I doubt they're going to spiral into obscurity any time soon.

Hell, they even had films made about them.

QuoteAnd DG, why do you hate Idaho so much?
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=idaho_blows

I think my reasons are spelled out quite well in that article, sir!

NAPOLEON DYAMITE? MORE LIKE NAPOLEON DYA-MIGHT NOT!!

Edit: Upon further refection, I cannot spell "dynamite".

Quote from: rharpe on Fri 09/12/2005 01:54:06
The albums he has made had pr0n covers with Yoko Ono.

For anybody who might of been offended by the cover of "Two Virgins" I've made this new improved version:

(http://members.iinet.net.au/~snderson/2virgins.jpg)

Quote from: modgeulator
For anybody who might of been offended by the cover of "Two Virgins" I've made this new improved version:

That version is much better... thank you! Now if only they would have done that 25 years ago...

I'm just doing this to vent, so feel free to ignore me.

Dimebag Darrell was also shot and killed, one year ago today (the same day as Lennon to clarify, as my post is a few hours late) by an angry fan who was upset about the breakup of Pantera.  I didn't hear a single damn thing about him on the radio, or television.  Kinda pisses me off.

I have nothing against Lennon, from what I've mostly heard, he was a great guy, and his music was okay, but what makes him so fucking special?  Darrell, from what I've heard, was also a great guy.  He loved people.  I've heard stories about him giving away amps, pedals, and guitars to kids who were down on their luck.  Just like Lennon, he loved music, and was good at writing it.  Lennon may have been an influence to a lot of modern music, but so was Darrell.

I realize that the media (the local and national news) may not be familiar with heavy metal news and icons (Pantera wouldn't be their first choice in music, but the Beatles would be).  But I think that is somewhat stupid, because Darrell was a human being too, not just some drunken metal-head low-life like many people would think.

I must have heard about Lennon's death 20-some-odd times on the radio today, but not one word about Darrell.

So this ends my interruption of the thread about John Lennon's death, to give some credit where I felt it was due.

Kinoko: I was hoping it would be a joke of some kind, but even so: I can't even start to believe that people would joke about the death of someone/anyone. And from the rest of your post it doesn't seem that it was a joke, but anyhow... I like you too  :)

rharpe: I love porn. And I love the official word pornography. And if you are refering to this specific record then, I don't think it is that bad. I can link you to some lovely sites, where you can find pornography. But I agree with you on one thing. The whole issue about Lennon has taken huge proportions and he could even be considered a god or a saint. Which is bullshit, but check my last paragraph.

Mr. Hyde: You are right! Lennon (un)fortunately is now a legend and will remain this way, for a lot years to come.

Especially since he's dead for 25 years you can hate all you want the "blind" fans, the "deaf" ears, the "money driven" media. I definately think it's more their fault than anyone elses.

He was a great melodies composer. I can make a compilation of his music and I'll surelly get at least 3 hours of enjoyable music, funny, sad, touching or reivindicative, no matter, but enjoyable...

I think he went too far into reivindications... Not because that reivindications shouldn't be made... Ã, World needs idealists! but I see some videos of him and I feel that he was so deep into reividications that he was constantly annoyed with the worLd. I preffered when he was in the beatles, saying the same, or approximatelly, but with humour.

But is that an obstacle for not liking him, or his music? Good Lord, no! Mr. Andail is the official socialist peacifist AGS boy, maybe the person most politically oposed to me I can find, but he's probably one of the members I adore more.

And it's not a matter of closing my eyes when he posts idealists posts. I don't avoid parts of his personality. It is just that, following with the example, Petter is a graphic artist, a musician, mittens 2003 host, the man who invited me to drink Rum, the guy who made gravity experiments in a Greek beach, throwing peebles to the sand, the guy who tryed to speak Spanish, being polite with my girlfriend... Having that, the fact that I can't agree with him in a little aspect of his personality becomes ridiculous towards friendship aspects.

The same happens with the rest of the people. I haven't lost a friendship, or being unable to start a friendship because I don't like an aspect (even an important one) aspect of the personality of the other people.

Why a percentage of religious people just can't do this and automatically has a grudge against people who does not agree with them? Man, if religion finally is a reinforcement of beliefs that will make you automatically going and hating people, I am out... The main message that all religions say is "Love the others". If people can't understand this, and denies the first and most important message for deffensing the other stupid 1000 messages that religions say, I am out.

But that is not a post against religions. Religions are like safety belts... Safety belts are made for saving lives. If you cut the safety belt of your car and use it for commiting suicide we can't go and blame the safety belts, can we?

Rharpe, there was a man who was shot 4 times, he left two orphans and a widow. If you think that the REAL problem is that he made some records you don't like, you're miles away of understanding the message of love that religion stales, you have a problem. Go to the India, shave your head and become Hare Krishna, or Buddhist, or explore whatever you want to find the path, because you are really lost.

And Kinoko... Relax... You hate Nicolas Cage, Lennon... I have a black list too, don't think I am an angel, ok? But in mine it is Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Pinochet and Karadjic. Take a look to the list of people you officially declare as people you hate and realise it's insane to have such list compared with the people that it's out there... It is a pitty that a smart, funny and talented person like you goes wasting energies expressing hate to people that is not the people who really deserves it.

EDIT: Changed "Lennon looked annoyed with the word" for "Lennon was annoyed with the worLd"

Jesus, I don't get this at all.
Needless to say, I guess, I like Lennon's music, I respect his political standings and I think he was an extra-ordinary person when he lived.

His death was a huge tragedy which affected just so many people.

Now, what I don't understand one single bit is how some people choose to defile a tribute thread like this with just hatred and insults. Seriously, if you don't like Lennon, or his music, why feel this urge, in this particular moment, on this particular date, to be a complete ass?

Sorry if media doesn't focus on your particular idol. It's not our fault. If you hold Pantera dearer than Beatles it's totally ok with me, but what can we do about it? Not every death gets the same amount of attention. Incidently, my uncle died on a date not far from today, also 25 years ago. Nobody cared about that.

Rharpe (who is, for the record, supposed to be a good christian), way to shit on somebody's grave. How the heck can you say that Beatles have had a generally bad effect on people for 25 years, when their music was mostly about love and caring? With all the crap bands we have today which preach nothing but hatred and bad behaviour, how the heck can you stare yourself blind on beatles, of all bloody bands?
Since when is it a good christian's duty to trash-talk dead people? This is so hypcritical my stomach aches.

Kinoko, sometimes it's cool to be provocative and all, but you're just being rude and insensitive for no reason. As I said, this isn't at all about peope having different tastes when it comes to music, but it's one thing expressing your disagreement and another thing being down right bitchy. You show a disrespect for human life that can only be matched by your predilection for kittens.
So, please stay out of this thread, just away with you, cause this really means something to me, and I refuse to see a person who cared for love and peace being connected with that crap attitude of yours. Sorry.

I, personally, don't care for the music of Lennon or the Beatles.  And yet, I mourn the loss of somebody taken before their time by a person who deemed it their right to pass judgement.  I sympathize with many of his ideals and a couple of interviews I've read and heard with him have been, for the most part, quite interesting and somewhat edifying. 

For the fans, I'm sorry for the loss of an influential cultural icon.  For those that aren't, at least mourn the loss of one more peace-loving person who represented the antithesis of his demise. 

I'm sure you are, and I will stay away, but allow me one more shining moment in the spotlight.

Jesus christ, some of you people need a sense of humour. *sigh*

Kinoko, great retorts, now can you please try to make yourself just one bit more obnoxious?

I'm not sure it can ahieved, though, after that "you need some sense of humour" comment, along with that *sigh*.

Seriously, there isn't a trace element of respect for you left in my body at the moment.

Farlander and Andail: Thank you.

When I get older, losing my hair, many years from now,
Will you still be sending me a Valentine,birthday greetings,
bottle of wine?
If I'd been out 'till quarter to three,would you lock the door?
Will you still need me, will you still feed me,
When I'm sixty-four?

Hmm------mmm---mmmh.
You'll be older, too.Aaah, and if you say the word, I could stay
with you.


I could be handy, mending a fuse, when your lights have gone.
You can knit a sweater by the fireside, sunday mornings, go for
a ride.
Doing the garden, digging the weeds, who could ask for more?
Will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm sixty
four?


Every summer we can rent a cottage in the Isle of Wightif it's
not to dear. We shall scrimp and save.
Ah, grandchildren on your knee, Vera, Chuck, and Dave.


Send me a postcard, drop me a line stating point of view.
Indicate precisely what you mean to say, yours sincerely wasting
away.
Give me your answer, fill in a form, mine forever more.
Will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm sixty
four?

by John Lennon/Paul McCartney

wow, look at this thread! there are people with different opinions on the intranet-o-tron??? who'da thunk it???

Seriously, can both the Lennon-lovers and Lennon-haters chill out? Love him, hate him, whatever. But stop turning on each other. As Mr Pink says, "Hey, let's be professionals about this!" Also, why do I have to be Mr Pink?

And here, you want a bit of Lennon humour? Okay, here's some levity...

The Dude: It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Donny: I am the walrus.
The Dude: You know what I'm trying to say...
Walter Sobchak: That fucking bitch...
Donny: I am the walrus.



In conclusion.... SHUT THE FUCK UP, DONNY!!!




Note to self: Two Steve Buscemi references in one post. Not bad!

I surely didn't intend to upset anyone with my statement, or disrespect anyone.

And not to take over the thread with religous debate, but I felt I should address a few things said about religion.

I feel it is unfair to jump all over Rharpe, or anybody else who is or claims to be religous when they say or do something wrong. Just because the are in an organized religion does not mean they suddenly become saints, they still have opinions, they are still people full of peoples flaws.

Another statement that struck me was Farlander saying that a percentage of religious people have issues with hating people and, well having issues with people. This is not a religous phenomenom (did I spell that right? Time to go watch Ghostbusters I guess) This is human nature itself. This is the outspoken, extremist religion if anything.

I personally am a religious man, I don't hate gay people, or any of that routine. I swear too much and have a bad sense of humor... I don't think I ever try to force my beliefs on anyone, and try to always respect others views on the subject.

Again, any loss of life is tragic. Especially when a life is cut short...Sorry for butting in to the thread...

Quote from: Kinoko on Fri 09/12/2005 01:40:52
Will John Howard feel bad that I said that? Even less likely because he'll never know.

Apologies for the levity. I'm done now.

Quotesaints, they still have opinions, they are still people full of peoples flaws.

Sure everybody says a few flawed things now and again. Rharpe silently refused to explain why Lennon and the Beatles have been a baaad influence for over 25 years though, he didn't say 'sorry, my bad, I guess cultural interactivity might be a bit more complex than that' or anything. He just ignored my question to explain why, so I'm not cutting him any slack until he explains, and we can see how exactly his religious beliefs can stand along with what I suspect to be honestly quite twisted political beliefs.

Personally, I can find a lot of things wrong about the media exposure of the beatles. They're the archetypical post-religious iconic group of people with saviour complexes, exposing their super-ego from their high alcove of pop stardom, influencing on a massive scale. I think pop icons have done nothing for us, and in fact have fed this modern disease where vecuous publicity has become the paramount goal for the everyman. But this is a general phenomenon of the modern times and can be examined without having to tie Lennon's death into it. What I hear is 'I don't agree with Lennon, and because Lennon had massive influence, it's GOOD that he died'. This is just wrong, it can't be true, coming from a catholic christian?

Kinoko: there's plenty of senses of humour around. Apparently not all parallel to yours.

I'd just like to point out that "John Lennon" is an anagram of "Lone Jehovah"

COINCIDENCE?? ??

/me places his copy of Catcher in the Rye down on the table

Dude, you just BLEW MY MIND!!

Quote from: Helm
Rharpe silently refused to explain why Lennon and the Beatles have been a baaad influence for over 25 years...

The album cover with him and Yoko naked is bad enough... isn't it.

Quote from: Helm...he didn't say 'sorry, my bad, I guess cultural interactivity might be a bit more complex than that' or anything.

I actually did apologize.

Quote from: Helm
He just ignored my question to explain why, so I'm not cutting him any slack until he explains, and we can see how exactly his religious beliefs can stand along with what I suspect to be honestly quite twisted political beliefs.

Poronographic covers, "Make love not war" message, etc., does not go too well with what I stand for as a Catholic. He promotes immorality... does anyone know what that is anymore?

Quote from: Helm
Personally, I can find a lot of things wrong about the media exposure of the beatles. They're the archetypical post-religious iconic group of people with saviour complexes, exposing their super-ego from their high alcove of pop stardom, influencing on a massive scale. I think pop icons have done nothing for us, and in fact have fed this modern disease where vecuous publicity has become the paramount goal for the everyman.

Not just the Beatles...that's right.

Quote from: HelmBut this is a general phenomenon of the modern times and can be examined without having to tie Lennon's death into it. What I hear is 'I don't agree with Lennon, and because Lennon had massive influence, it's GOOD that he died'. This is just wrong, it can't be true, coming from a catholic christian?

I'm not shitting on his grave! It's like what Christ said, "It would be better if you were not born then to scandalize a child." He has definitely scandalized many, even after his death. Many of you are so desensitized, you wouldn't even know it if you were.

I will still pray for the repose his soul, for no one really knows whether he is in Heaven or Hell. And for the record: I don't hate anyone but the Devil and his minions! 

Quote from: rharpe on Fri 09/12/2005 16:35:16
It's like what Christ said, "It would be better if you were not born then to scandalize a child." He has definitely scandalized many, even after his death. Many of you are so desensitized, you wouldn't even know it if you were.

Ummm, I think you need to check that quote. I think he said that about someone who would betray him, not someone who "scandalizes children" whatever that means...  or maybe you equate lennon with Judas?

Matthew 18:6 reads:
(quote from Jesus)
"But whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea." (ASV)

That being said, I don't see what's so pornographic about the album cover. I wouldn't say they're naked as much as nude. America is over-sensitive to nudity (as opposed to other more harmful things, like violence). I'd rather my child see a nipple (I mean, if he was breastfed, he's seen them anyways) then someone breaking another person's neck in a movie.

What a way to hijack this thread, right?

IMO, The Beatle's music was good from the time they made Rubber Soul (1965) to about 1969. But The Grateful Dead pretty much make the Beatles sound like they have the musical prowess of the Backstreet Boys. But who cares, that's my opinion, right?

Ah, right, rharpe must have got that one and Matthew 26:24 confused.

just noticed:

Quote
"Make love not war" message, etc., does not go too well with what I stand for as a Catholic.

So you're saying that the catholics would rather that people killed each other than procreated (possibly even with their spouse!)

Just some education for ya:

Nudity :

A Christian Perspective : http://www.religioustolerance.org/nu_bibl.htm

Examples (kids welcolme):

1: Lennon and Yoko (http://www.zonicweb.net/badalbmcvrs/twovirgins.jpg)
2: Adam and Eve (http://witcombe.sbc.edu/eve-women/images/michelangelotemptfall.jpg)
3: David (http://www.kamikazebrothers.com/images/david%20statue.gif)
4: A young naked Jesus (http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/WebMedia/Images/74/NG744/eNG744.jpg)


Porn (adults only):

1. Fun times (http://gay4play.com/homosexual-pornography.jpg)
2. More Fun Times (http://www.teenpornmodel.com/teen-porn-models/teen-porn-model-2.jpg)
3. One more for good measure (http://www.biw-interracial-porn-fucking.com/011501/ja3pic12.jpg)

I couldn't find any more porn than that, sorry.

Notice that there can be less nudity in Porn than there is in Christian art depicting the saviour and various biblical characters in a highly religious and reverent way.  It's the lust depicted that makes it erotica or Porn, not the nudity, and John and Yoko were very loving and hardly lustful. Their nudity depicts an idea of the pre-fall ignorance of Adam and Eve, and like other art above, it was done long after Adam and Eve were gone.

Also, God hates those who cast judgement, and Jesus was definately opposed to war.  To be in favour of war is to disrespect the word of Jesus, to love the destruction of God's creations and thus to spit in the face of God:

Matthew 26:52 (New International Version)

52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

Luke 6:27 (New International Version)
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

A word against those who accept the authority of rulers (John and Yoko opposed rulers, which is clear in their lyrics):

Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)
"12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

From Sermon on the Mount:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

also:     "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly
    Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their
    trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Also: This (http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol31/htm/ix.lxi.htm)

In other words, forgive and forget John and Yoko, judge them not lest you be judged.

There is so much more--why would any Christian prefer that men kill the creations of God rather than be nude, or even make love within the confines of Marriage?  Remember that John and Yoko depicted VIRGINS--so even that is too sexy for this particular cover.

If you still hate these two for Christian reasons, read these three articles:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/barnwell/barnwell26.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/007/34.86.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lennon#.22More_popular_than_Jesus.22_controversy

Quote from: SSH
Ummm, I think you need to check that quote. I think he said that about someone who would betray him, not someone who "scandalizes children" whatever that means...  or maybe you equate lennon with Judas?

Sorry, even my quote was mixed up.   :-[  Correction (http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47018.htm)

Quote from: bspeers on Fri 09/12/2005 17:43:43
I couldn't find any more porn than that, sorry.

I have a hard time believing that.....

I've been carefully to post that there is JUST a percentage of religious people who becomes annoyingly deffensive about it. And I've said that we can't blame religion, or the people who uses religion propperly, because of the people who uses it in an appropiate way.

The main argue seems to be that this things happens in all the communities, not just in the religious ones. I agree, but my "feeling" is that in religious communities the percentage of "zealots" is higer. I can't really be sure if this feeling is correct, so I can't really argue against anyone saying the opposite....

Just wanted to remark that I am not against religions or against people (99.9 %) who uses it propperly.

On second thought, nein.

Quote from: rharpe on Fri 09/12/2005 16:35:16
I'm not shitting on his grave! It's like what Christ said, "It would be better if you were not born then to scandalize a child." He has definitely scandalized many, even after his death. Many of you are so desensitized, you wouldn't even know it if you were.

It's ironic that you believe in and quote someone who was blamed for spreading immorality, was murdered and then held up as a martyr.


I call shenanigans on this!!

Quote from: DGMacphee
It's ironic that you believe in and quote someone who was blamed for spreading immorality, was murdered and then held up as a martyr.


I call shenanigans on this!!

Actually, the romans tried to strip Christ from all of his garments, but could not. This was a way for them to humiliate Him. And he is not a martyr, but Our Savior!

Quote from: rharpe on Sat 10/12/2005 03:51:23
Actually, the romans tried to strip Christ from all of his garments, but could not. This was a way for them to humiliate Him.

No, I meant how he was arrested on the orders of The Sanhedrin and Joseph Caiaphas for blasphemy. Blasphemy counts as immorality, right?

QuoteAnd he is not a martyr, but Our Savior!

No, no, you're thinking of Flash Gordon.

Look at all the people....

I don't see what all the fuss is about. So John Lennon was a bad influence. Who cares? So am I. So are you. So is everybody. You realize that when Jesus was around, he ate with the sinners, publicans, and harlots, and told the religious crowd they were a bunch of assclowns, right? He said "You jokers are attending mass, and giving tithes, and following the Law and the Prophets... I don't give a fetid pair of dingo's kidneys if you do all that if you aren't treating people right."

How is nudity pornography? If he was knocking her up, then yes, I would say that was pornography. By saying you or God have a problem with that cover is the same as saying that God created something bad. In reality, the Bible says that nothing is inherently evil... What is evil is evil because we make it so. Therefore, nudity is not bad... It's the response to that nudity. So it wasn't John and Yoko who were the sinful ones... If you have a problem with it, IT'S YOU! "Great peace have they which love the Lord, and nothing shall offend them..." The Bible might say to cover your nakedness, and that to look on someone's nakedness is a shame... It ALSO says that a woman is to cover her face, because that is a shame as well, and even though the Bible says a "woman's hair is her glory," THAT TOO needs to be covered, because otherwise it is a shame. So why don't you go slap your wife and tell her to get crackin' with the hats? Do you know any girls that wear their hair in braids? Or that wear earrings, or silver? Or that eat meat and drink milk in one sitting? You know what the Bible says about that, don't you??? I know there is an argument to that, but my point is, why is there an argument to these supposedly "petty" things, but not to nudity? What makes them different? Why are you so afraid of one while you completely allow the others?

Furthermore, along those same lines, there is no such thing as a bad influence. There is, however, a call for bad influences. To go back to the conversation about Jack Thompson... People make video games like GTA because PEOPLE WANT THEM, not because they are trying to corrupt people! Again, if John Lennon is a bad influence, it's because people already have a preexistant state of badness that they want influenced, and hop on the Lennon bandwagon (however it was again that he's a bad influence. You still never seemed to explain that one)...

If you want a bad influence, look at the Church. The Crusades were not a Holy War by any means. The ongoing conflict in Ireland between the Protestants and the Catholics is another thing. How about the Witch Trials? What about the Inquisition (nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!)? What about Roman martyrdom of Protestants during the first couple centuries of the church? Ever read Foxe's Book of Christian Martyrs? What about all the diddling of wee laddies that's been going on here lately, and the covering up and protection of the priests involved by the papacy? Oh yeah, great influences. Yet you have a problem with a man that preferred to have sex over killing people. And why? Because you think the Bible is against people who are immoral?

I think it's interesting to note that the person Jesus said had more faith than anyone else he'd seen in all of Jerusalem was a homosexual (look it up in the Greek... the word "servant" doesn't mean "butler..."). Also, didn't Jesus say he'd rather leave behind 99 religious people to save one person who was a sinner? Where do you see Jesus condemning the woman at the well? Or the woman taken in idolatry? Or Zacchaeus, the theiving tax collector? Or the thief and murderer on the cross next to him? On the other hand, how many times did Jesus call the religious crowd "Vipers," "Asps," "a Generation of serpents???"

I'm sorry. I prolly just angered all the religious AND nonreligious people in this forum. Dammit... But it needed to be said. I, like Farlander, don't have a problem with religions or people, but I have a problem with people who lack logic. Examine the following syllogism:

1. The Church is founded on the Bible.

2. The Bible says that all men are sinners. "There is none righteous, no not one." "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." "They are alltogether gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable." "All your righteousness is as filthy rags." However, the pope, a man, claims that he is the mouthpiece of God on this earth. Just because he said so, apparently, makes it true, and people begin following a man who says everything that comes out of his mouth is ex cathedra.

3. The Church is therefore not following the book it is supposedly founded on.

Isn't that illogical, and hypocritical? You know what (I think I've used this example before, so bear with me)... I'm going to start a religion based on the Lord of the Rings. My first action as founder of said religion is to elevate myself to the position of Dark Lord, and I shall name myself Samwise Gamgee. You don't think my followers will see the discrepancy there, do you?

I have said it before, I appreciate the fact that people have the strength to stand by their beliefs, no matter what those beliefs might be. However, when you start being illogical about it, you lose me. You can believe that the world is made of cheese... I know differently, but you can believe it if you want to. However, when you look in the Book of Cheese and it says the world is made of Bleu Cheese, but you insist it is made of sharp cheddar, then I have a problem with you. YOUR holy book, that YOU say is the very word of God, says one thing, and you believe another just because generations of imperfect human men have said that is the way it is... THAT is why I was smart enough to drop religion like the sack of hot shite it is years ago. John Lennon was a good guy. Alot better than Pope Leo, who wrote the Enchiridion, a book of ceremonial magick for the use of the Jesuits that involves the invocation of demons. Alot better than that one Catholic there... what was his name... Oh yeah, Adolph Hitler... Alot better than the present pope, Joey Ratz, who was a member of youth for Hitler and whom John Paul II made head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (the 'modern' version of the Holy Office of the Inquisition). At least John Lennon knew what he believed without having to be told.

**Esper gets ready to become the least popular person in the forums, bravely saving Kinoko from the same fate**

EDIT: And what do you mean, they couldn't strip him? Is that based on the Bible, or some painting that some guy made that shows Jesus wearing a loincloth just because he didn't feel right drawing the Divine Weiner? Tradition strikes again...

Matthew 27:27-31
Ã,  "Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers. And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe. And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head. And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him (he's naked again), and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him. "

Later on, while he's still alive, the soldiers part his garments amongst them... It was, after all, Roman custom to strip people completely naked who were being crucified.

o_O

I go away for a one day holiday and yet another thread has become a debate about religion. Is this every thread on the internet's ultimate fate?

Well, although I said I'd stay away, I just want to say I'm sorry for getting everyone angry and upon further reflection, I totally misread rharpe's initial post. I didn't even know he was religious! *hides her mountain of porn* (Seriously rharpe, don't go -anywhere- near my website ^_^)

But I don't care. As long as we can agree about the fundamentals of adventure gaming, that's all that matters to me.

Quote from: Kinoko on Sat 10/12/2005 08:21:58
...*hides her mountain of porn* (Seriously rharpe, don't go -anywhere- near my website ^_^)

Now, Kinoko ,which website would that be? I've been looking for some porn in the interent but couldn't find any apart from the three pictures bspeers showed us. Can you help me? I'm desperate... ;D.

BTW Where did you go?

Seriously:

What I see frequently in these forums is that a lot of threads become religious discussions. I follow espers mind pretty closely and I do understand what he's saying (and where he's coming from, as far as I can tell), but I also can follow rharpes mind here too.

A person is intitled to have opinion! And he is intitled to say that opinion. And although things have been misunderstood here with rharped, concerning Lennon, I find that he actually said nothing wrong. He believes in something and he has based his life in his believes (his family also, of course). I respect that, but at the same time, I see everybody questioning that. I'm not sure I enjoy that.

Of course, you're entitled to your own opinions. Everybody is. But when your opinions begin to involve other people (such as, "that person is wrong," or "that person is evil," or "that person is a bad influence") then there's where the problem comes in. Like I said in my post, you can believe that the earth is made of cheese. Far be it from me to try to dissuade you. However, if you said people who ate cheese were destroying something holy, and you got on a forum and said "People who eat cheese are of ::cue reverb:: SATAN!!!!" then you're out of line. If you got on and said "The world is made of cheese," then I might say "Thank you for that info, but I don't believe you're correct." However, if you were to say "The Big Bopper ate a lot of cheese in his lifetime, and so I'm glad he got in that plane crash so he could stop corrupting people's minds with all that cheeseeating," I would say, "Hey, cut that out. He might have eaten cheese, but you eat too many frickin' avocados. The world is made of avocados, don't you know?" And then I might also be tempted to say "And by the way, your very own Book of Cheese states that Cheezus had no tolerance for people who bothered the cheese eating populace, even though he never ate any himself."

You can't find porn? o_o ...Really? I'm more than a little surprised.

Do you mean you can't find free porn? Even that's not too hard. Try typing "sex" into google.

Re: The website, I mean my own art website. which isn't what I'd classify as porn but it's basically just buxom young women with very little clothing. Mind you, it's been dead for at least a year, probably two. http://kinoko.futariba.com if you're interested (I haven't looked at it myself in about a year).

Re: Where I went... nowhere interesting. A couple of towns over to a meeting at a "resort" (it wasn't what I'd call a resort but it was better than I expected) for the day.

esper: Cheezus :P Genius!

I think rharpe is a bad person because he thinks other people are bad people.

I think rharpe is a bad person because I have it on good authority that he eats little children

Thanks for telling me I'm a "bad person", makes me feel like I'm doing something right. :D

Why is it that I'm so bad? I state an opinion or belief that is contrary to everyone else and I'm instantly Hitler! I say pornography/nudity is wrong and everyone is on the defensive. Why are you people here? This is not a porn site, it's a game development site. I'm not the one that is out of place, you all are. If you want your porn and nudity... why come here?

I feel like I'm getting under some of your skins... sorry that wasn't my intention.

Why are you all so afraid of me. Because I stand my ground against all of you that oppose my beliefs? Whatever happened to right and wrong? Were none of you taught this? Do any of you even know right from wrong... sometimes I wonder.

Helm: I don't eat children...unless they just started putting them into canned soups in the US?

Kinoko: You stood by me from the start of this thread... thank you. I know you don't have the same beliefs, but you were also ridiculed for your thoughts on Lennon as well... I'm sorry I placed you in a line of fire.

Vince Twelve: I don't think any of you are bad persons. If I thought that, I wouldn't be here. Many of you are confused, but not bad. AGS has a great community! I'm happy to be apart of it.

esper: As usual, you amaze me by the mountains of information you can type in one post, wow! Read This, (http://www.cin.org/deca.html) I think you'll like it.

Nikolas: Thanks for following me. And at least giving me a chance to explain what I believe. In many ways, people here are very bias to religion... especially the Catholic faith. They feel it is holding back progression... restricts freedom... and ultimately brain-washes a person... it does not. They fear what they can't understand. I'm not a theologian, scholar, or priest, so sometimes my explanations do more harm than good... I'm sorry about that.

DGMacphee: Between you and Helm, I can never take either one of you serious. Helm, I can expect this behavior... He's been in many other boards that I use to frequent... He knows me well for starting/fueling religous battles within forums... especially regarding impurity.

Farlander: I don't see much, or remember much concerning your views about me and my beliefs. I'm sure you side with the others, but at least your more on the neutral side.

Squinky: Yet another person I find hard to talk with without cracking a smile. I can never tell if your serious or not... sorry, you always seem to have wise-crack remarks.

SSH: You tend to keep me on my toes. Last time I "tried" to quote something from the Bible, you showed the correct quote. Sometimes I wonder if you believe the same things as myself? You tend to side with the others, but in all...I wonder?

bspeers: Links to porn sites... come on! People can go out and find them on their own, they don't need your help. Your post was a good example of scandal. Think about it: some kid comes in maybe 10 or 12 and reads your post. Then out of curiosity he sees the links you posted and clicks on them...wham! What the he...! His mom walks into his room while he staring at the images and unplugs his computer then takes it out of his room...Now AGS has one less community member to post games, comments, etc. (Ok, so he saw the "(Adults Only)" disclaimer...you're still partially reponsible.) Thanks for not hotlinking to the image, at least you gave the user a choice to click on it or not.

Mr. Hyde: You don't say much to me concerning religious matters. Maybe you are the only one that feels you don't have to post what you believe? Or maybe you already know arguing religion is an uphill battle? 

Andail: There are times you don't understand my posts... I try to explain the best I can. But when everyone attacks you at once, sometimes it's difficult to clear the smoke, so to say.

big brother: You are an artist, to define nudity, porography, and impurity is very difficult. Some artists draw these things, not to have sexual delight, but for more of a creative license. The problem is, some artists don't realize their art, photos, etc. are not appreciated they way the artist intended them to be.
Which could lead to misinterpretation and scandal. Btw, your art rocks!

MrColossal: I always find you on the offensive with me. Not sure why. You seem to always be the first to lead the attack.

modgeulator: Nice fix on the album cover... would have better if you would have made it a link though. :]

Largo: I'm really sorry I took the thread and made it into a religous debate... that was never my intention. I'm sure you deeply feel connected somehow with Lennon, which brought forth this thread. I do not hate Lennon as almost everyone believes, but I do not like his music or him as a person... That's all I wanted to say. My apologies... but look at the bright side, we kept the post at the top!

I'm not mad at anyone here... this is not a rant either. I'm open to any attack or comment that you may have. If you all could really know me, I'm best described as a very laid-back, humorous goof, that loves computers. When I go out, (as seldom that would be,) I get pretty crazy. (Being married and having a child attributes to this at times.) All-in-all I'm pretty happy-go-lucky... hopefully I didn't offend anyone. :P

Quote from: rharpe on Sat 10/12/2005 16:17:35
Thanks for telling me I'm a "bad person", makes me feel like I'm doing something right. :D

Thanks for saying you think you're doing something right based on the most hollow reactionism. It pretty much defeats your arguments better than anything I'm going to say below does. Sometimes when people dissagree en masse with you, it's not because you're getting under their skin. It's just because you opinions are widely believed to be dangerous, strange or just plain ignorant.

QuoteWhy is it that I'm so bad?

Because you eat children.

QuoteI say pornography/nudity is wrong and everyone is on the defensive.

pornography is not slash nudity. The fact that you choose to disregard or are otherwise incapable of seeing the various shades of a topic such as this paints you like the fundamentalist you probably are. Your usage of RIGHT and WRONG, specifically your RIGHT and everybody else's WRONG further amplifies this impression.

QuoteWhy are you people here? This is not a porn site,

Well, fringe-porn... American Goat Society focuses on bestiality, I guess

QuoteIf you want your porn and nudity... why come here?

People want a lot of things in their lives. This is not about this forum, it's about you saying Lennon was a BAAAD person because he took a picture of himself with his wife in the nude. We are discussing this, not looking for our porn. You're diverting the argument.

QuoteI feel like I'm getting under some of your skins... sorry that wasn't my intention.

Ignorance really itches, yes.

QuoteWhy are you all so afraid of me. Because I stand my ground against all of you that oppose my beliefs?

Yes, let's have a war. Let's not discuss things and reach some sort of sensible conclusion, a middle ground if you will. Stand your ground against all of us that oppose your beliefs, in clear black and white.

QuoteWhatever happened to right and wrong? Were none of you taught this? Do any of you even know right from wrong... sometimes I wonder.

Thankfully, (most of us) were taught of the infinite shades that exist between two disparate ethical positions, and from this comes a humility that doesn't allow us to reach for our LOL YOU'RE WRONG I'M RIGHT LOL card so often, if at all. Thankfully, we don't easily come to the conclusion that what we're doing is based on safe moral foundation just because some book told us what to do. Hey. 

QuoteHelm: I don't eat children...unless they just started putting them into canned soups in the US?

You eat children. God told me.

QuoteVince Twelve: I don't think any of you are bad persons. If I thought that, I wouldn't be here. Many of you are confused, but not bad. AGS has a great community! I'm happy to be apart of it.

Oh

QuoteDGMacphee: Between you and Helm, I can never take either one of you serious. Helm, I can expect this behavior... He's been in many other boards that I use to frequent... He knows me well for starting/fueling religous battles within forums... especially regarding impurity.

Yes I was a moderator on pixelation when you approached people to preach about the evils of communism and I was the one that asked you to stop doing that then. But this is a general board where OT is the point, so by all means, nobody's stopping you from expounding on your beliefs to your heart's content. In fact, I strongly encourage you to do so, so people that might align themselves with you, even in the slightest, know exactly what you're made of, politically and morally.

Quotebspeers: Links to porn sites... come on! People can go out and find them on their own, they don't need your help. Your post was a good example of scandal.

What

QuoteThink about it: some kid comes in maybe 10 or 12 and reads your post. Then out of curiosity he sees the links you posted and clicks on them...wham! What the he...! His mom walks into his room while he staring at the images and unplugs his computer then takes it out of his room...Now AGS has one less community member to post games, comments, etc. (Ok, so he saw the "(Adults Only)" disclaimer...you're still partially reponsible.) Thanks for not hotlinking to the image, at least you gave the user a choice to click on it or not.

Nobody that is 12 should be around here anyway. If they are 16 and they click on the links... it was their choice. Of course their parents might admonish them for the choice they made, but that's after the fact. Actions have consequences and you can only learn that from taking action. From preemptively shielding a child from the concept of a choice, you are creating weak-willed individuals ill-equipped to face reality, instead living in their dream bubble where everything is either RIGHT or WRONG and god tells them what to do about scary naked genitalia and Lennon records.

Quote from: rharpe on Sat 10/12/2005 16:17:35
Why are you all so afraid of me. Because I stand my ground against all of you that oppose my beliefs? Whatever happened to right and wrong? Were none of you taught this? Do any of you even know right from wrong... sometimes I wonder.

I'm not affraid of you, I just think you're an obstinate fundamentalist.

To break down this thread:
* Two people (group A) can't stop expressing how they hate a certain person, and how they're happy he's dead. This is something they repeat plenty of times, along with grave and excessive insults.
* A few other people (group B) tell them that such a behaviour is considered rude and not really appropriate. They ask them to stop defiling a thread which is obviously a tribute to aforementioned late person.
* Group A, for some reason, starts accusing group B for being immoral and not knowing the notion of right or wrong
* This is so silly that you can only laugh at it. Rharpe, you're being so narrow-minded and self-righteous that I regret I ever took you seriously.

I think that this is so interesting and so out of hand.

What started out as a tribute thread for Lennon (which is like 15-20 posts in this thread and we're in the 4th page going on the 5th), has changed into an explanation for rharpe about his beliefes (once again) and references to everybody. And answers from Helm and Andail which could be regarded as offensive. Actually Helm , I don't know, if I can take it seriously. And only the fact that God told him that rharpe eats children is enough. If it was an inside information I would've agreed. If it was a tip off yes. But God told you? Come on, God has other plans. Fortunately rharpe always cracks a smile with your posts. And I do to! This post was hilarious!

But Andail:

Quote* This is so silly that you can only laugh at it. Rharpe, you're being so narrow-minded and self-righteous that I regret I ever took you seriously.

This could be a little insulting.

Actually both people in group A stoped expressing their hatret towards Lennon(s) music but what we have here is something else. We are constantly trying to make rharpe answer for something he did/say that we think is wrong. And there is no way to make this for happening. He has a different belief system than most of us, and no forum will ever change that.

What I'm actually trying to say is that the last post is a "reaction post" from rharpe. I don't think he would've posted ordinarily...

Anyway if I can be regarded as impartial I will also try to break down what I think:

1. Group A said some wrong things. Half of the group A stopped, but the other half is forced into continuing. And goes further into the wrong direction imo.
2. Group B was offended by Group A and had a right to do so, as I was offended but after that just took it too far, and tried to enlighten group A.

Neither group will ever learn. (<-This makes me look a little above ya all! hahahahahaha)

Just an idea: Maybe start a sticky thread with a subject line: "Religious debates", and everytime a religious debate comes on our way throw it in there, so anyone interested could discuss freely without offences to the rest of the community.

Now, on a sidenote: It's been 25 years and a couple of days after Lennon died. Does this make a difference? If not and anyway if yes, can someone tell me what happened to the killer? Was he convicted to death? Life sentence?

Nikolas: The killer is still in jail, his parole being denied repeatedly.

"MrColossal: I always find you on the offensive with me. Not sure why. You seem to always be the first to lead the attack."

Can you please tell me when this happened before? Honestly, I tried searching the forums with search but it only showed me five posts I've made in gen gen so I think it's a little weird and I just don't remember.

also, I like how Bspeers made many interesting and well thought out arguements and you ignore them to focus on 3 links. If John and Yoko being nude is so bad, explain religious iconography. There, same question, no links to porn.

You said them being nude was bad enough to corrupt people for 25 years, so naked paintings that are 600 years old must be really bad.

and then this important question: "why would any Christian prefer that men kill the creations of God rather than be nude, or even make love within the confines of Marriage? "

 ::)

Rharpe, I'm not attacking you. I'm not REALLY attacking your beliefs. What I'm attacking is the fact that you don't seem to make any sense. When you come into a thread that is supposed to be a tribute to John Lennon and make it a religious debate, it's your own damn fault when people jump on you. Contrary to your opinion, it isn't because you're sticking up for God. If you really WERE sticking up for God, then maybe I would have your back. And then, being obstinate and saying when people attack you that you feel like you must be doing something right... I guess that means Flukeblake (no offense intended, little bro) was really doing something right whenever people jumped on him.

And thanks for the link. I read it in it's entirety. I was going to prepare a rebuttal, since almost everything I read on there was based on what people say about the Bible rather than what it actually says for itself. But I won't bother. I'll just use that as a further argument. Why do you have to run to what other people have told you? Why can't you follow the exhortation of Scripture to "Be ye always ready to give an answer to any man that asketh thee a reason of the hope that is in thee with meekness and fear?" or "Study to shew thyself approved, a workman of God that needeth not to be ashamed?" Or follow the example of the Berean church where the Bible says in Acts "Now these (the Bereans) were more noble than those at Thessalonica, for they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so?"

Quote from: rharpe on Fri 09/12/2005 16:35:16
I'm not shitting on his grave!

Didn't that link you gave me say something in the second commandment about using swear words? Oh noes. If the Bible is right when it says that if you have offended in one point of the law, then you are guilty in all points, then you officially have been naked with Yoko Ono. And have robbed banks. And have had wild monkey sex with a large Nordic man named Sven. So leave John alone.

And it's all fine and dandy to sit back and say you're winning. But why don't you answer any of the things any of us have said, rather than just giving generalizations? BSpeers posted a VERY informational link (not t3h pr0n, even though that was a little TOO much information...). Andail said some interesting things, and so did Mr. Colossal. I quoted the Bible. YOU quoted men. How can you say you base your beliefs on the Bible, but when someone quotes it in a way you don't like you hole up with a link from the Catholic Let Us Tell You How To Think Foundation?

Think logically. Most people don't believe in the Bible. Alot of people don't even believe that the historical parts of it are accurate. Whether or not the Bible is true or fictitious is not what is being called on the carpet here. What is being said is, is it right for someone who claims to believe the Bible to say what you are saying. If the question was, "Is it okay to kill someone?" You could say, "No. The Bible commands us not to kill." Then, we could say either "The Bible is true, and I agree," or, "The Bible is not true, and I don't agree, but you probably shouldn't kill anybody, since your holy book tells you not to."

The question is not "Is what you are saying correct." It is not "Is the Bible true." It is, "Should someone who believes the way that you do have made the comment about John Lennon that he did?" No one is REALLY arguing religion. We are arguing whether or not what you said even makes sense according to your own beliefs. I have shown, using ONLY Bible verses and ideas that I could easily look up for you or quote, that no, it doesn't make sense for you to have said what you said. You have responded in turn something like this: "I don't care that the book I hold as my authority says it. Some guy in a robe told me it was true, so it is." I think everyone can agree, whether or not they believe the Bible is true, that if the Bible says what I have quoted it as saying (which, by the way, it does), then your arguments are, by your own belief system, illogical. Yet you persist, because a frocked old man with a white collar and a rosary gave you a website to look at that says otherwise.

Q "Should someone have said what you said about John Lennon that claims to believe the Bible?"

A "I believe the Bible, and no, based on the verses that Esper gave, it's obvious they shouldn't."
                                                             or
A "I don't believe the Bible, but based on the verses that Esper gave, it's obvious they shouldn't."

Both sides should technically agree with me. You don't. Why not just burn your damn Bible? It appears to be useless to you anyway. Oh wait, that's right, in 1229 AD the Bible was placed on the Catholic Forbidden Books list and not taken off until a century ago..

At this point in time, people might be wondering what the hell I am. Am I some Protestant trying to practice what the preacher-man was yelling at me in tent revival meeting? Am I an atheist that hates all religions and religionists? Am I the re-reincarnation of Jesus?

I was going to be a priest. I had enough seminary to have a doctorate in theology. However, because I had my own ideas and thought for myself, I was kicked out of seminary on charges of witchcraft. Then, I tried a Baptist college, thinking the opposite of Catholicism (Protestantism) might be what I was looking for. Guess what? The same goddamned thing happened. Just because I thought for myself and asked the wrong questions to the wrong professor. So if anyone has the right to say "I must be doing something right," based on your arguments, it must be me...

Well, it's great to see that a thread made as a tribute to a person whom I like because of him making what in my opinion is good music, turn out into a disaster of a thread about something I dislike, christianity.
Seriously, so what if John and Yoko commited a (according to some people) 'mistake' by posing nude on an album-cover. It was probably intended to be art, not pornography. And think of all those christian paintings made through the years that has nudity in them, is nudity allright when it's, for example, painted in the roof of a godforsaken church?
Since we're being open with opinions here, I can tell everyone that I hate everything that can be associated with the bible, christianty makes me fucking sick. I might be overreacting now, but I do know for sure that christianity is not that perfect.
Sorry to whomever finds this post insulting, but I'm just tired of all this god-bullshit.

...any reason for this hatred towards all of christianity?

QuoteAnd think of all those christian paintings made through the years that has nudity in them

That was precisely the point most of the people were saying...

QuoteI hate everything that can be associated with the bible, christianty makes me fucking sick.

Any particular reason you hate a large portion of the world's people?

Quotegodforsaken church

Now, that one's just plain funny.

The bad influence John Lennon has had on people for the last 25 years is nothing on the bad influence Jesus has had on people for the last 2000.  :D

PS. I wish Mark Chapman had shot Paul instead... or the Pope. Shooting the Pope would be pretty cool.

Quote from: modgeulator on Sat 10/12/2005 21:25:00
The bad influence John Lennon has had on people for the last 25 years is nothing on the bad influence Jesus has had on people for the last 2000.Ã,  :D

*applauds*

Well, technically, Jesus wasn't the bad influence. Almost every other world religion will say that Jesus was a spiffy guy, or a prophet, or an incarnation of the Buddha... Most atheists will point out that Jesus, although not really the son of God as he claimed, taught some cool stuff. The only problem was that Christians never listened to him.

And that has been my point throughout...

Plus, I think you'll find that John Lennon thought the same way.

QuotePlus, I think you'll find that John Lennon thought the same way.

If you mean he thought the same way as jesus, that's impossible to know for sure.  It depends on translation differences and interpretation.  If not, then sorry, that was entirely useless...

Now, what you've been blaming to "group B" (throw trash against something, knowing that people who likes that something is going to read the trash you're throwing) is what you are doing. Don't over react.

Religions are not compulsery bad. Sure, they can make people go and kill abortive doctors, but this people was insane and should have done something nasty even if religion never existed... Blaming the religions for the zealots is like blaming video-games for violence in the youth. It is fashioned too blame religion. The cruzades, the killing of native indians, and now this DonBroownishy tendency too see conspirations everywhere.

But if you look closer you'll realise that cruzades were an economical fact, and religion was an excuse. Indians should have been killed anyway, but some missionaries deffensed the indians till the end (Garcilaso de la Vega, Fray Bartolomé de las Casas...) Religion was a real shelter for culture in the dark years of the middle age... Lot of bad things, sure, but some good ones.

Religion is a tool... You can use it propperly. You can use it unpropperly. But do not blame the use some people give to it to the tool. It shold be very unfair, IMO.

I think we once agreed not to have any religious debates here so I'm not going to bother taking part in that...

...but I hope John Lennon has rest in peace during these 25 years and will keep it up in the future, too. My knowledge about the Beatles isn't very good, but I do like some of their songs.

Quote from: Petteri on Sat 10/12/2005 22:05:17
I think we once agreed not to have any religious debates here so I'm not going to bother taking part in that...

I didn't know that. I'll try to back it up the best I can.

A little musical info about The Beatles: They were revolutionary. From every aspect. They actually introduced minor chords in English music. No kidding. A minor chord was rarely seen in Brittish music but The Beatles made it happen. They had phychedelia. They had drugs. They had music knowledge. They knew contemporary music. They had personality. They had messages in their songs (and not pornographic ones, but messages about love, caring, peace, some drugs (Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds :LCD). I don't have any record of them, but I know a lot of songs, I play in the piano a lot of songs, and if we define classic as something that withstands time we can honestly say that The Beatles have beaten time. Which does apply to a lot of bands but not in the extend of the Beatles. (<-and this is because I like Pantera... But still the universall acceptance of The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The King and Nikolas Sideris is undenied!!!!! ;D

Just had to say this. I have spent this entire thread arguing against the Christian. Now, let me turn around and do the opposite. I don't claim to be a Christian, or an atheist, or a Buddhist, or a Satanist, or a Wiccan, or an agnostic, or a Hare Krishna, or a Muslim... etc... As such, there is no standard to hold me up to. Rharpe can't randomly speak his mind, because, like I said in a past post, he has the Bible as his guide, and if he strays from it, he can be argued into a corner and broken.

I have no such trappings.

Most logical, intelligent, atheistic people will say "I have logical, intelligent reasons why I'm an atheist. I think Christianity is wrong, along with all the other world religions." Although I am not an atheist, I can say this is where I am. "Christianity" has been the cause of some of the most atrocious horrors in history. I already mentioned the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, etc.. An intelligent, informed person who has nothing to hide from or to fear can stand up and say "Christianity and the Bible are false," and then leave it alone because it bears no importance on their lives. I have some very good friends who are Wiccans, that when I was stupid enough to be trying to become a priest supported me all the way, even though I was becoming part of a religion that states "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

However, it takes an immature, insecure imbecile to say "Christianity and the Bible make me fucking sick." To me, this sounds like Mommy and Daddy shoved a bit too much religion down somebody's throat as a kid. The same way they say "I hate school because they make me do homework and the teachers are in charge of me," and "I hate my parents because they make me go to school and church." You don't like it because it represents someone else trying to be an authority in your life. I can come up with a hundred and one logical arguments against religion. Can you?

No man has authority over me unless I allow it (a guy's gotta make money somehow...). I don't like religion, but I don't feel the need to erupt at it, because I am not threatened by it. By the way, did you mention Islam, or Judaism, or Hinduism, or Paganism, or Rastafarianism? Does it make you sick that people used to believe in Odin, or Zeus, or Baal, or Amon-Ra? Does it bother you at all that some people believe in aliens, or ghosts, or even believe that the Great Old Ones of H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos are real? (funny story... Cthulhu and Dagon ARE mentioned in the Bible).

And I also feel the need to back myself up by saying I haven't once engaged in religious argument. I have engaged in logical arguments against religious arguments, which require using religious terminology, examples, and sources, and I have taken up against both sides not because I am religiously opposed to either side, but because both sides were being illogical. I am not involved in this. ::sneaks away::

EDIT ::sneaks back:: whose responsible for all this, anyway? Somebody set up us the bomb.

All right, I over reacted and posted in a slight immature way which I shouldn't have done, since I didn't act the minimum age on this board. I apologise to whomever find my previous post insulting, it's just that christians who think they're perfect just because they believe in what people have been believing the past 2000 years make me sick. But christians who don't act like heroes I can live with.

I was just shit-stirring. Look at the smiley ->  :D

Jesus was like a totally awesome guy I'm sure.

Quote from: Largo on Sat 10/12/2005 21:05:59
Since we're being open with opinions here, I can tell everyone that I hate everything that can be associated with the bible, christianty makes me fucking sick. I might be overreacting now, but I do know for sure that christianity is not that perfect.
Sorry to whomever finds this post insulting, but I'm just tired of all this god-bullshit.

Sorry, but that's well out of order. You may not be religious but many people are, and insulting posts like that can only stir up tension. In a way people seem to get away with it against Christianity in a way that they don't against other religions; if you said "Islam makes me fucking sick" you'd probably be locked up for racial hatred.

Anyway, you've apologised now so that's fine, I just wanted to make clear where the line is.

Yeah, I really went overboard. Apologies once again for my immature behaviour, but some things just make me annoyed and I just want to express my anger in any way possible, in this case by writing.

Maybe I should've made a general tribute thread. There are after all alot of other artists of different kinds who died too early. I could name an example, but only singers pop into my head. But, take Freddie Mercury for example, he composed and wrote some very good pieces during his lifetime, which, unfortunately, wasn't very long.

After reading this whole, too long post, i went smiling. The whole thing is useless! rharpe keeps argumenting without any arguments and everyone else whacks his arguments away with a newspaper.


And by the way! Pornography never harmed any child who were brought up the right way! Sex isnt a bad thing, but the opposite, and the same goes for nudity! I am neither a nudist or a homosexual but i dont care if anyone chooses to show their genitails or to have sex with the same sex!

This isn't smart.

holy cow, BAN time

edit: i'm not against porn, just against it on the forums.

Sure, porn is not directly harmful, but some people might be viewing these forums from work, and no boss likes seeing his employees looking at porn when they should be working.

NSFW is a nice acronym.

I think i made my point then ;D Sorry if i disturbed anyone, if it was not of religious reason! :)

Penis'! I think I'm gonna be sick!

I have enough of that crap to contend with on the net without you posting it!

And no, I aint religious, I just don't like seeing people do it with each other!

And don't nobody get any ideas about doing a porn AGS game!

EDIT: So if i was offended because of religious reasons, you don't give a shit? Where is you consideration?

The only reason i said "im sorry if i disturbed anyone..." was if situations would occur. Like Ghormak said, a boss could get the wrong idea. Or if a mother walked in on her son/daughters bedroom and saw what they were looking at, when they in fact, only were checking out the forums.

Quote from: ManicMatt on Sun 11/12/2005 01:00:41
So if i was offended because of religious reasons, you don't give a shit? Where is you consideration?

That is correct! I dont think "My religious manic parents/priest told me that nudity is wrong and therefore i hate porn! Even though almost all art based on religion tend to have running nude people in them! And i dont like the feeling i get from watching it! It's this strange tingeling in my body!" Is a good argument. But, if they of some personal experiences, do not like pornography, i can respect that.

Quote from: Andail on Sat 10/12/2005 16:53:32
To break down this thread:
* Two people (group A) can't stop expressing how they hate a certain person, and how they're happy he's dead. This is something they repeat plenty of times, along with grave and excessive insults.
* A few other people (group B) tell them that such a behaviour is considered rude and not really appropriate. They ask them to stop defiling a thread which is obviously a tribute to aforementioned late person.
* Group A, for some reason, starts accusing group B for being immoral and not knowing the notion of right or wrong
* This is so silly that you can only laugh at it. Rharpe, you're being so narrow-minded and self-righteous that I regret I ever took you seriously.

Andail, seeing as you chose to ignore my last PM and then continue to write things like this, let me say it here. I explained myself to you, I apologised, I calmed down and I layed the foundation for us getting over this and I thought you had too... then you threw it back in my face in a way that I can only say shocked me. You're obviously still very angry over this whole thing and you're not in the mood for letting bygones be bygones, but I can't just let you keep writing stuff like what you wrote above.

The first statement is just 100% wrong. I never said I was glad he was dead, I said I didn't care. There's a BIG difference there. It just means it doesn't affect me anymore than the thousands of other people I don't know die every day. I wont get into this any further, I just have a problem with you rubbing it in my face and twisting my words around.

I told you I did what I did out of not wanting to see rharpe crusified for what I believed to be a harmless comment, and that the reason I got so angry was because I find it worse to question a person's morality, a real person that you're talking to, over a joke, as opposed to making a joke about someone none of us know. It turns out, as I've said, I misinterpreted rharpe's comments, but that was the reason. I told you this, I said sorry, and you basically, forgive me if I'm twisting your words, said, "Good, I'm glad you're sorry, but I still don't care and I'm not going to get over this until you figure out why I'm angry" and wrote a bunch of stuff that was just factually wrong. You never replied, and then come back here and continue to write things that just exegerrate what happened (yes, I know I can't spell that word -_-) and generalise by placing me in "group A" and every single other person in "group B".

Sorry, but I just feel you're out of line here.

Please let's just put this behind us. I'm sorry, okay?

Quote from: vict0r on Sun 11/12/2005 01:22:51
almost all art based on religion tend to have running nude people in them!

(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9996/untitled3zo1.png)

Holy Crap! He's right!!!

Seriously, esper, I'm falling in love with you :P If only I didn't have DGs sexy hairy nipples on my mind...

EDITted because I spelt "only" as "noyl". What the... o_O

Seriously? Hmmmm. Come give the good Doctor a nice big kiss....

(http://www.zetaminor.com/images/news_pictures/tom_baker_150.jpg)

Oh, those English teeth A_A

Esper he doesn't need shoes, now does he? What you drew is historically incorrect!

Spoiler

Plus you will probably rot in hell for drawing this! hahahahahahaha! ;D ;D

[close]

I don't think any deity would send me to hell specifically because I can't draw feet. Besides, the purple shoes and fallen tube socks added some humor to an otherwise somber piece of religious iconolatry.

Kinoko, I didn't ignore your last pm at all, I thought I replied to it as well. Sorry, the last thing I'd wanna do is to tell people stuff and then ignore their response.

Quote
The first statement is just 100% wrong. I never said I was glad he was dead, I said I didn't care. There's a BIG difference there.

Ok, if you say so. To me, much of what you said sounded very hostile. For instance

Quote
I don't like the Beatles, I don't like John Lennon, I'm actually rather glad they didn't have the chance to keep going so I'd have even more of their music to avoid.

I'm also sorry if I missed where you said you had misinterpreted Rharpe's posts (but I found it now, though). In the PM you said you were 99% sure he was joking all the time, and, as I think I said in my respones, he struck me as a rather serious, at least when it came to the nudity and the bad influence the Beatles have had for 25 years.

I'm also sorry if I refused to accept your apology, that's silly of me and I was probably heated up at that moment. Naturally, I want to put this behind us too.
So, Kinoko, lassie, we're cool, let's just move on now shall we.

Thankyou so much! ^_^ I feel a lot better now.

Damn it. I was away for the weekend and missed all the memorial hostility and arguments :P Well, I'm still confident to what I said back there on 1st page :D