Kramer is a racist nutbag!

[Andail]

Darth, I don't quite understand your points.
Nigger is a word that has been used excessively during the major part of your nation's history as a derogation, to epxress how a person is worth less due to his skin colour. The word has been used overly as a racist remark, and people of various colours are still offended by it. The entire black community were subject to slavery 150 years ago, but after that they were treated like shit for another hundred years, and still treated questionably in many ways. Look at the demographics of your poorest.
Are there no reasons to be a bit careful with racist comments just because it's 2006?
And what's up with the "why isn't a black person racist when he comments the colour of a white person? etc"...well use your imagination, for God's sakes. Have the white "race" suffered anything during the past, or nowadays? Have your parents been forced off of buses because of their pale skin? Were their parents hanged from lampposts, refused jobs, spat on etc?
Why do you think it matters what you think about the word "nigger"? Isn't the important thing if there, still today, exist people who use it to express their hatred, and if there exist people, still today, who feel hurt when hearing it?
For you it's just a word, but, really...use your imagination here.

[Darth Mandarb]

Andail & Evenwold - I agree with you.  The mis-treatment of ANY group of people because of the color of their skin is intolerable.  I didn't mean/intend to imply otherwise.  I don't condone what Richards did ... it was incredibly ignorant.

My point was simply that I should think that in this day and age a silly little word wouldn't still retain so much power.  Especially given how freely it's used in movies and music.  So why can black people use it freely, but if a white person uses it it's global headline news??  That just doesn't make sense to me.

Have the white "race" suffered anything during the past, or nowadays? Have your parents been forced off of buses because of their pale skin? Were their parents hanged from lampposts, refused jobs, spat on etc?
Why do you think it matters what you think about the word "nigger"? Isn't the important thing if there, still today, exist people who use it to express their hatred, and if there exist people, still today, who feel hurt when hearing it?

My brother was held up at gun point by a black guy.  They arrested the guy later and he said one of the reasons he did it was because my brother was a "racist honkey" in need of killing.  He'd never met my brother before.

I think it does matter what I think about the word.  Too many people who think as I do don't say anything about it (for knowledge they'll simply be called racist and no attention will be paid to the merit of their opinions) and this rediculous notion of power the word has continues ... it's a vicious cycle that needs to stop.  It's just a word.  My not being black doesn't change that.

Not trying to be argumentative.  I just feel really strongly about this subject.

As for "cracker ass white boy", I think if Richards brought up race, it's fair game for the heckler to call him a "cracker ass". That's why the black guy isn't being called a racist. He's trying to fight Richard's on the same terms established by Richards. Fighting fire with fire, so to speak.

I can see your point there.  I don't agree.  I was taught an early age that two wrongs don't make a right.

It brings up another one of my theories which always elicits a chuckle from me ...

And what's up with the "why isn't a black person racist when he comments the colour of a white person?

So ... it's okay for a black guy to use racial slurs on white people because of slavery?  So ... to fight against racism ... you use racism?  I'm sorry, but no, that just isn't acceptable.  Racism, in anger or defense, is NEVER right as far as I'm concerned.  Again, two wrongs don't make a right.

Just to reiterate ... what Richards did was inappropriate.  He lashed out in anger (which is never a good idea).  I don't condone it nor think it was funny.  I just don't think it's any worse than a lot of the other shit I hear daily coming from non-white folk.

If a white person is ignorant enough to use that word in a derogatory manor then they aren't worth your time or consideration.  They're a low-class piece of shit and putting them in the public spot-light accomplishes nothing other than making the problem worse.  Given the current state of things I'm sure what I'm saying is probably ringing as racist to some people reading this.  I can only assure you that I'm not.

I'm all about equal rights ... however, letting one "race" be racist just because bad shit happens/ed to them in the past/present is unacceptable.  There's nothing "equal" about that.  It's ignorant.

My entire philosophy on racism is this: Racism = Ignorance

You can't cure ignorance, thus you can't cure racism.

People just need to accept the fact that there are ignorant folk who will dislike you simply because you aren't like them.  This is a fact that isn't going to go away.  A white person who hates black people is no worse than a black guy that hates white people.  Slavery or no slavery it's just as wrong.

[monkey0506]

I read most of the key points of Darth's post and I also watched the video.

From what I understand from the video this person and/or these people (the "Group") were talking (obviously loud enough for Richards to hear it, and long enough to enrage him) during Richards' stand-up routine, and he got pissed off. He decided to do something about it, and I think we can all agree that his choice wasn't really the best one.

But the facts that the Group was 1) being rude toward Richards in the first place and 2) retaliated by using terms just as derogatory as the term he used to refer to them shouldn't be ignored IMO. I don't condone what Richards did, but I'd say that, at least in part, the Group is also at fault.

My mom got remarried when I was 4 1/2 years old (14 years ago Thursday). My step-dad is perhaps one of the most racist people PRIVATELY that I have ever met. In public he still makes rude comments from time to time, but as long as the person/people in question aren't actually doing anything wrong and he is forced to interact with them, he'll treat them like he would a white person. Then later he'll turn around and talk about how terrible, lazy, worthless, etc. they are for not being white.

My mom is also partially racist, though she admits that some people, though black, are still good people. Just when she's talking with my step-dad she tends to make nasty generalizations saying things like "all [black people]."

However, I have made the concious choice not to end up like my parents. I know that, sure, there are black people out there who are bad people...but there's just as many white people and hispanic people and oriental people etc., etc. that are just as bad. And there's black people that are good people. I've met people with black skin that I regard more highly than I regard my parents.

Racism is a terrible thing IMO. A terribly stupid thing. The idea that someone is inferior just because they were born with a different skin color is perhaps the most invalid, illogical, idiotic line of thinking I have ever heard of (second probably to the line of thinking that nothing in fact exists and everything is just imagined). In the proper company I myself have made light of people's race, but never to the extent of intentionally offending anyone, and I have made it clear that my jokes were just that, jokes, and nothing more.

Anyway, the topic of the thread was the video itself and Richards' actions on the video, so...back on topic...Richards' actions were unacceptable, but the retaliation of the Group on Richards is equally reprehensible.

[scotch]

It's not at all the fact that he said the word "nigger" that has made the news, it's that he started shouting it at some black people in order to offend them along with making reference to lynching black people and generally crashing and burning on stage, which people will always love to watch. It's not the word, but the sentiment... if he came on and said "What's up my niggers!?" and it was a big talking point today I'd be very suprised, and for once people would be justified in their "omg, political correctness gone mad" rants.

My cousin finds it higly amusing to say nigger and he isn't racist, he's just a boring person that likes to be mildly shocking when he can.

The video was certainly odd, I'm not really sure what to make of it now... I doubt he's a particularly racist person, probably just a very silly one that won't back down when they've said something dumb in public.

[Ghormak]

He didn't back down on stage, but it didn't take him long to back down after that. This is the apology video Erenan linked to, now on Google Video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9107547518165183938

[Meowster]

I read most of the key points of Darth's post and I also watched the video.

From what I understand from the video this person and/or these people (the "Group") were talking (obviously loud enough for Richards to hear it, and long enough to enrage him) during Richards' stand-up routine, and he got pissed off. He decided to do something about it, and I think we can all agree that his choice wasn't really the best one.

But the facts that the Group was 1) being rude toward Richards in the first place and 2) retaliated by using terms just as derogatory as the term he used to refer to them shouldn't be ignored IMO. I don't condone what Richards did, but I'd say that, at least in part, the Group is also at fault.

My mom got remarried when I was 4 1/2 years old (14 years ago Thursday). My step-dad is perhaps one of the most racist people PRIVATELY that I have ever met. In public he still makes rude comments from time to time, but as long as the person/people in question aren't actually doing anything wrong and he is forced to interact with them, he'll treat them like he would a white person. Then later he'll turn around and talk about how terrible, lazy, worthless, etc. they are for not being white.

My mom is also partially racist, though she admits that some people, though black, are still good people. Just when she's talking with my step-dad she tends to make nasty generalizations saying things like "all [black people]."

However, I have made the concious choice not to end up like my parents. I know that, sure, there are black people out there who are bad people...but there's just as many white people and hispanic people and oriental people etc., etc. that are just as bad. And there's black people that are good people. I've met people with black skin that I regard more highly than I regard my parents.

Racism is a terrible thing IMO. A terribly stupid thing. The idea that someone is inferior just because they were born with a different skin color is perhaps the most invalid, illogical, idiotic line of thinking I have ever heard of (second probably to the line of thinking that nothing in fact exists and everything is just imagined). In the proper company I myself have made light of people's race, but never to the extent of intentionally offending anyone, and I have made it clear that my jokes were just that, jokes, and nothing more.

Anyway, the topic of the thread was the video itself and Richards' actions on the video, so...back on topic...Richards' actions were unacceptable, but the retaliation of the Group on Richards is equally reprehensible.

I agree with this entirely. It's what I was trying to say, but worded better

[Blackthorne]

I agree that this is an outrage.

We need to keep racsim behind closed doors and in living rooms, where it belongs.


Bt

[LimpingFish]

Devil's advocate: In America, is racism a genuine problem and still as dangerous and oppressive as it was, say, pre-1970? Or has it largely become a crutch used by minorities when things don't go their way?

I can only view this situation as a white male, 18 - 45, with no prior leanings towards either view.

[LimpingFish]

Sorry, double post 

[Blackthorne]

Devil's advocate: In America, is racism a genuine problem and still as dangerous and oppressive as it was, say, pre-1970? Or has it simply become a crutch used by minorities when things don't go their way?

I can only view this situation as a white male, 18 - 45, with no prior leanings towards either view.

You're racist for saying that.  Racist.

Bt

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Honestly, Politically Correct people are such arseholes, ruining everything just because they want to feel all saintly and better about themselves and oooh the poor black people! Grow up and stop feeling like you have to defend the poor black people you condescending assholes...

Yes.

Also, this mindset:

And what's up with the "why isn't a black person racist when he comments the colour of a white person? etc"...well use your imagination, for God's sakes. Have the white "race" suffered anything during the past, or nowadays? Have your parents been forced off of buses because of their pale skin? Were their parents hanged from lampposts, refused jobs, spat on etc?

is as hypocritical as it is narrowminded.  Nice way to legitimize reverse racism, Andail!

Have you even read 1/10 of what Mugabe was/is doing to caucasians and jews in Zimbabwe?  Did you know that before Africa was found to be a source for slave trade countries often used captured prisoners of war for such roles and anyone else they could get their hands on?  And what about jews?  Is it okay for a black man to call someone jewish a kike?  Well, not according to your definitions of justified racism it's not, since the jewish people have suffered terribly through history, and yet why is it that I don't see them using this as a crutch to justify wholly unacceptable behavior?

Racism on any front is bullshit, and justifying it is equal parts bullshit.  End of line.

[monkey0506]

That does of course bring up the point of overcompensating for racism. Racism should be prevented, but that doesn't include giving those who have been affected by it special benefits. That doesn't help the problem. It just exemplifies it.

[skyfire2]

All of this raises an important question. Why is it when a white man makes a black joke it's racism, but when a black man makes a white joke it's comedy?

[MrColossal]

That's not an important question at all. You're just not watching all the other comedians who make jokes about everyone.

LimpingFish: I fear answers to your question. Some people have crazy ideas and now they might post them!

[evenwolf]

The sentiment that is forming about using racism to one's benefit, or a crutch---


Where the hell are you guys coming from? Ã,  hello? Ã,  How bout I just change my argument over to "Damn Kramer idiot! Ã, He's giving them negroids fuel for their fire! Ã,  Now they's going to whine more and reap the benefits them damn liberal democrats will shovel out like candy!"

OK, I kid.Ã,  Ã, You guys are making a point that some people try to take advantage of crap like this, right?Ã,  Ã,  But what are some actual cases where citizens were robbed of freedoms etc because of using race as a crutch?Ã,  Ã,  Ã, Equal rights in colleges?Ã,  Letting 1 black guy into a university over a white kid with better grades?Ã,  Ã, What else?Ã,  Food stamps?

Is there some black Rupert Murdoch out there who gets more block grants from the government simply because he's black?Ã,  Is the government shovelling millions of dollars his way?Ã,  Ã, Because I'm not sure what practical application this crutch has, other than whining.

Most people know that whining gets you nowhere.Ã,  MLK, Malcolm X for example.    As far as I can tell the black population has often had reason to advocate their cause.

[LimpingFish]

The sentiment that is forming about using racism to one's benefit, or a crutch---
The entire race of black people was not sitting there with him, neither are they all using this as a crutch to subdue whitey.

Does somebody out there actually think that black people as a whole are threatening the U.S?   

I didn't imply that they were. What I meant was has it become easy for minorities to blame their problems, whatever they may be, on racism?

Does an african-american have an automatic right to call racism when he/she doesn't get hired for a job, and a white person does? Has it come to the point where being passed over for something automatically becomes about race if the person is black?

Rev. Jessie Jackson once complained that not enough black actors had been nominated for the Academy Awards one year. "More black actors should be nominated!". Why.? Because they deserved to be? Or because they're black? Can I complain about the lack of Irish astronauts?

This is what I meant by 'crutch', an easy option to fall back on when there is a lack of reasonable argument.

"You didn't get the job?"
"Well, I am black."
"Damn racists!"

[evenwolf]

Sorry limping fish, I reworded my post a little bit but you still nailed it all right.

I was motivated to ask my mom, at her workplace does she in fact deal with this minority crutch?    And yeah, she does she says.   She works for a women's clinic for ladies who have been through spouse abuse etc.   

She has to help women get back on their feet, or provide assistance and living space.   Many of the black women in her shelter bring up discrimination for almost everything.  This one time she offered a white woman a blanket (after being told multiple times about how she and her children are freezing), and as soon as the blanket switched hands a black woman started screaming "racism" at the top of her lungs.  She says this comes up all the time.

So I definitely see what you guys are saying, although I'm not exposed to it as frequently as my mother.   But she and I both agree that the type of people who scream "racism" are the poorest of the poor.   They're scraping for anything and if you've been there- you know you'll use anything as an excuse.

But who else besides the poor and Jesse Jackson are really threatening anybody?  If you are lazy, and you make a concious decision to grab at any excuse you can- say racism,  you certainly aren't putting yourself in a position of power.  You are submitting further to defeat.

So I ask again, where is the threat in this crutch?   

[MrColossal]

"This is what I meant by 'crutch', an easy option to fall back on when there is a lack of reasonable argument."

LF, yes of course. The same way people say "I don't have a girlfriend because all women are bitches and untrustworthy!" or something like that.

Some people complain of The Man holding them down when there are other factors involved, not race.

And some people complain about affirmative action or what have you keeping them from getting a job because they're white.

Then more people complain about a secret society of reptile people from the 10th dimension are ruining the earth for some nefarious plan.

Then an insane amount of people believe that not only are they kept from getting a job for some race reason, but satan ALSO stopped them from getting a job...

Does an african-american have an automatic right to call racism when he/she doesn't get hired for a job

Sure they technically have a right to call that if they want but it's not like any old dude can say "RACISM!" and whitey freaks out and hires him.

As to your Jackson quote, can't really speak on that since I don't know the context at all. Was he stating an opinion or holding a protest?

[monkey0506]

Does somebody out there actually think that black people as a whole are threatening the U.S?

My step-dad.

Your argument has valid points, however you can't deny the fact that there are those (in any race) who use anything they can to their own personal benefit as much as they possibly can (up to and including their race).

Not everyone does use it to their advantage, but that's true of anyone. Nobody makes the most advantage possible out of every attribute they have. Not a single person. But as individuals we all hone in on specific attributes and use them, to varying extents, to our advantage.

But it's important to recognize when someone is actually offended by racism and when someone is just using their race as a "crutch" because it is advantageous for them to do so.

If we ignore the fact that there are those who do use their race as a crutch, we just compound the problem; but then we have to be concious that there are those who have genuinely been negatively affected by racism. In order to overcome the problem we have to treat each case as an individual incident and not allow our previous experiences to prejudice our interpretation of the facts.

[EDIT:]

3 posts while I was writing this.

[evenwolf]

I don't really understand the Jesse Jackson issue, either. Ã, From what I understand Jesse Jackson expresses that what can be done legally for black people HAS been done legally, and that it's now up to the individual to change their own lives.

Again, if a poor black person screams "racism" like the boy who cried wolf - that is further submitting to defeat. Ã,  So I don't feel at all threatened or bothered by that. Ã,  That person has made a poor personal choice.

I do sympathize with you as individuals any time you have to bargain with a situation like that.  Where someone makes a racism claim againt you in your business or personal life.    But there's nothing as a society we can do to hush the crutch problem.  Sadly, it's an individual problem just the same.