Kramer is a racist nutbag!

[EagerMind]

I've always felt that celebrities have just as much right to share their opinion as anybody else.

I don't have an issue with celebrities holding an opinion or sharing it if they're answering interview questions or participating in some sort of panel discussion. I do start to have a problem when they abuse their positions as celebrities to foist their opinions on us, they act as authorities on topics they know nothing about, and/or they do/say controversial things simply to generate media attention to revive flagging careers.

Obviously there are intelligent, informed celebrities out there, but in general, I don't know where this idea comes from that they have anything intelligent to say about social and political policy or why we should pay any more attention to them than any other shlub on the street. So some drunk guy gets pulled over and launches into an anti-semitic and racist tirade. Who cares! Wait, the drunk guy was Mel Gibson? Well then, this is a serious issue!

The worst part about it is that the attention these incidents get keep us focused on the superficial aspects of the problem. Racism is a much more deeply-rooted and insidious problem than whites and blacks calling each other "niggers" and "crackers." Yet when this stuff gets plastered all over the news, the rest of us can take false comfort in the fact that since most people don't go around spewing racial slangs with impunity, racism really isn't that big of a problem.

[Babar]

ManicMatt, I believe I understood what you were trying to explain, but that's not the point. We can't just prohibit (implicitly or explicitly) average, everyday words that have been used in anger. If people start taunting lebians by calling them "Man", should we stop using the word man? If we call all Americans "Amreekan" in a derogatory way, being insensitive to the fact that they may be from California, New York, Alaska, Pennsylvania (sp), or even Canada or Mexico, does that mean that the word 'Amreekan" should be banned? However, I can understand, unfortunately, that words like nigger, negro, etc. are too far gone.

I can't really see how people can taunt someone by calling them paki on the basis of their skin colour:
Paki Paki Paki Paki (yes, John Simpson was originally Paki )
Paki Paki Paki Paki

(I realise some of those individual people may not be Pakistani, I'm just giving an example of how they'd look)

About the celebrities pushing their agenda, I can't really complain. Everyone is allowed to say whatever they want to say, from celebrities to non-celebrity drunk hobos. If celebrities have more money, fame or image to help them, you can't really blame them.

PS: To me, you are also a nice person who is a part of the AGS Community. But I may be biased. I haven't listened to your music yet  . Anyhow, you can call me Paki whenever you want.

[evenwolf]

Eager, agreed. Ã, I recently tried to interview Richard Dreyfuss but that ass face does Ã, not consider himself an actor anymore. Ã,  Ã, He thinks he's a "politcal activist" and "ethical leader".

He turned us down for interview because he was "too old" and the interview he did give to this other show he denied to answer any questions based on his acting career. Ã,  He's taught a semester at Oxford and suddenly he's too good to talk about acting and actors. Ã, He gave an hour and a half speech on bringing civics back into classrooms, and about parents being bad role models, and about Bush being impeached. Ã, 

I wouldn't have gotten so pissed off except, here's a guy who has led a pretty good career.Ã,  Ã, I might consider myself to be following in his footsteps. Ã, But nowadays he smirks a shitty smirk when acting comes up like he's too good for it. Ã, Like acting is clown business. Ã,  BUT the only reason anyone would ever listen to his goddamn opinion is that, "ooh look its the guy from Jaws!" or "hey its Doctor Leo Marvin!" Ã,  or "ooh, the guy Darryl Hammond impersonates!"

Richard Dreyfuss left a spoiling bologna taste in my mouth.

[DGMacphee]

Should have told him how much you thought Krippendorf's Tribe was an awesome movie.

[ManicMatt]

Fucking hell Babar! Are you trying to de-sensitive me to the word or something, writing it a hundred times! 

To answer your question, if people started calling lesbians "man" then it should be banned from being used in that context. "Man" has already been a known formal word for so long though it would be a context issue. The p word has, in my country, ONLY EVER been used in a bad way, and it's been a horrible thing to hear said by racists for the whole of my life. So it has no other meaning to me. So every damn time you write that down for me to read I get upset.  :'(

So it's never been used any other way, unlike man, so YES the word is really bad to say over here. 

[voh]

...over here.Ã, 

So technically speaking, not over here. When I refer to a paki (which I rarely do, I usually refer to people from Pakistan as Pakistanis), I mean no harm by it. Context doesn't just have to do with the words around it, but also the situation (be it cultural or otherwise) in which it is spoken.

The same with nigga/nigger, really. When someone non-black uses it, it's a derogatory term. When someone black uses it, it's comparable to dude, homey, bro. Most of the arguments I hear in favour of blacks using the word (and almost always specifically mentioning the difference between -a and -er) is that they've taken the word away from the 'white man' and defused it. That they've made it their own. Sure, I can go for that, they've taken a bit of the sting out. But saying that only blacks can use it, is in itself racist - it's saying that one race can do something, but the other can't.

Culturally speaking, it does make sense. Jews can make fun of other Jews. Hispanics can make fun of other Hispanics. Whites... Well, they're pretty much everyone's targets, and why not? I can certainly understand that the slavery thing is a painful memory, both for those who've got direct lineage from slaves, and those who're merely of the same sub-race (being black, mostly). However, can you blame the current caucasians for wrongdoings in the past? I ask this because basically, that's what's been happening the past decades (and probably the coming decades too).

Skyfire1 made a really, really stupid generalization, but I can't say it shocked me. I read over it and just continued reading. If there's one thing I hate nearly as much as I hate racism itself (in the field of race discrimination, of course, there's loads of things outside of that I hate more and, of course, less), it's an unbased outrage concerning supposed racism.

Discrimination is in itself a shameful concept. We're far beyond the point where pseudo-science attempted to prove that non-whites were inferior based on biological traits (remember how skull shape, nose size, stuff like that was used to demonize people who were deemed inferior by those studies?). I believe that what we need to do now is focus on issues that actually have merit.

People who are discriminated against, be it due to race, religion or the colour of their irises, need to take whatever measure is possible in the legal system to stop it. Set a precedent, and if there already is one, set another. Complain, go to someone who can make it stop, eventually sue if nothing else works, but don't just go and be racist yourself. If you're discriminated against because you're black, make sure the bastard being racist is punished, don't EVER do anything that implies that the stereotype might be right (like when the Pope said the Islam was a hostile, aggressive religion, and the response from the muslim world was outrage, attacks on Christians, non-peaceful demonstrations and lots and lots of flag burnings).

All it does is make racism more logical for those already there.

Stand up against it, don't support it with apathy. What the hecklers from the show did was good - go to the media, show the world what happened. This is a good lesson both for Kramer the asshole, and for the people who watched it and before may not have understood why some things were kind of taboo.

However weird it sounds, racism is necessary to get it out of the world. We need to show it, talk about it, discuss it. Because awareness doesn't come with ignoring it, or trying to make light of it. It IS a problem, and it will REMAIN to be a problem until the (quite simple) idea finally sticks in everyone's mind that everyone is human, and outer differences matter nothing.

Unless you've got four legs, that is. In that case you're a freak, you filthy quadra-ped!Ã, 

edit: By the way, this was written by a guy who's someone's favourite Jew, who in turn happens to be my favourite Palestinian. We're improving the world!

[LimpingFish]

Fucking hell Babar! Are you trying to de-sensitive me to the word or something, writing it a hundred times! 

Why are you so afraid of these words? We aren't using them in a racist manner, but are simply using them to discuss the nature of racism.

Oprah once discussed rasicm on her show, and she and her guests spent an hour saying "...the N word." The couldn't even bring themselves to say it. This is the level of hysteria and fear a word can bring.

Rasicm, or the fear of being perceived racist, it would seem, can flourish even in a passive state.

[CaptainBinky]

Rasicm, or the fear of being perceived racist, it would seem, can flourish even in a passive state.

Yes - there is no such thing as a racist word, only racist context. It's all in how you say it.

[voh]

[Kweepa]

Wow, that's a bad cartoon. Two typos, some half-rate penny arcade inspired visuals (including the font) and an ambiguous punchline.

[LimpingFish]

More from the Rev JJ today. Apparently he's in meetings with entertainment and media execs to discuss the possiblility of banning all racial slurs from TV and movies.

"As a christmas present to our ancestors."

So, technically, no more movies or TV shows about slavery in America, and therefore no rerun of "Roots", no more "gangsta"-inspired shows, 50-Cent, Snopp Dogg, etc, etc.

Unless he's talking about ALL racial slurs...all those comedy shows with self-hating jewish characters, no more movies with british or russian baddies, no leprachauns, no Borat, no...

LimpingFish trails off into oblivion...

[Erenan]

Being offended is a part of life. People would do well to accept that.

Also, I second what voh said about how racism must not be hidden from the public's eye if it will ever be eradicated (unlikely to happen anytime soon, of course).

@ManicMatt: Is your complaint with the word "Paki" that it offends you, or is it specifically because it is racist? Because it seems that you are flipping out every time someone says the word, regardless of whether the context was racist or not. If it's just the word itself that offends you, then I'd point out that you're likely to offend lots more people by shouting "Fucking hell!" and yet you don't seem to have any qualms with that at all.

[EagerMind]

More from the Rev JJ today. Apparently he's in meetings with entertainment and media execs to discuss the possiblility of banning all racial slurs from TV and movies.

If he were smart about this, he'd approach this from the angle of "racism promotes terrorism" ("racial slur makes someone angry, causing them to act out in violence" sort of thing). Then we could reorganize the FCC under the Department of Homeland Security and just hand over final approval of our programming to the government. Really I think it's the cleanest, fairest way to handle this. Plus you've just solved this problem for all forms of media (print, games, etc.)!

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, the FCC and MPAA already do this, so I don't know what his problem is. If it's a toughening of standards he wants, he shouldn't be wasting his time talking to media execs.

Wow, that's a bad cartoon. Two typos ....

Actually, three typos. "Blue eyed" should be hyphenated (i.e. "blue-eyed devil") because it's a compound adjective. Really, can people at least take the time to get the basics right on this stuff?

[ManicMatt]

I'd point out that you're likely to offend lots more people by shouting "Fucking hell!" and yet you don't seem to have any qualms with that at all.

That is offensive in an entirely different manner.

I am ignoring this thread now, as I do not want to read that fucking word again. I will NOT justify WHY, I WILL not explain my fucking past, maybe everything is all roses where you are. lalala!!!! So fucking perfect whooooooooooo!!!!!!Hey why not send me a PM with that word in it, really get to me!!!! You have to wonder WHY the word hurts me so, you have to wonder
what it is that has made such as word strike pain and sorrow into my heart, and wonder you shall as Im not talking about it! Now drop it!

[Helm]

wow Manicmatt, you're not even Pakistani or anything.

[LimpingFish]

Indeed, Manicmatt. :o

If you are going to react in such a verbally violent manner, maybe you should discuss the reasons why?

I'm not trying to be an arse, but surely you see how strange your stance appears?

[Meowster]

If the word offends you that much, perhaps you shouldn't be reading a perfectly acceptable thread full of people discussing racism.

If you have such a violent verbal reaction to it, either don't read and contribute to the thread, or tell us why. Don't expect us to be concerned for you when you're so opposed to a perfectly reasonable discussion for some 'MYSTERIOUS' reason. And to be honest, unless you have a phobia directly related to people saying "nigger" or "paki" or whatever word it is that offends you, then I don't see ANY reason why a bunch of non-racist people (except for skyfire, obviously) discussing the woes of racism, should be a problem for  you.

Unless you can prove otherwise, of course. Otherwise stop having a spack attack and just leave the thread alone.

[Sam.]

Now we can abuse manicmatt, he's not reading this anymore, and can't prove me wrong unless he's a hypocrite as well as an emo.

Hah.

[Ashen]

To my mind (white, English male, 27), 'Paki' is, has always been, and is nothing other than, a racist slur. The only person I've ever know to use it in a way that wasn't specifically meant to be offensive, was my Grandad. And he was 'casually' racist in a way that always made me squirm.

Is 'lalala, I'm not listening to you' a bit of an over-reaction? Yes.
Is 'I think that's a hideous word, please don't use it' so wrong? No.
Do I have a point? Not so much.

m0ds' post below puts it better than I could. Thank you, Mr. L.

[m0ds]

Yet another debate that slowly turns into a minor flame war. Obviously there are some who will be hurt by the reaction of others, and also some (like me) who frankly don't care and realise it's just conversation.

However, Matt is offended, so be it. What if half the people on this forum were black, or muslim, or anything that we constantly debate? It'd fuck things up royally, and then you'd have to face 50 people saying "stop saying that, it's offending me". And you could hardly reply with "Oh, you crazy Afro-Carribean, its only a conversation about your skin colour!" and expect them to reply, "Oh, okay! Hahahaha! We could be talking about Myst or we could be focussing a huge debate on the colour of my skin! LOL!" Don't take my word for it but why cant stupid threads that piss members of our own community like this not be locked, or deleted?

I mean, do you people REALLY come to an adventure game forum to start shouting at one another? To make one another POSITIVE they know EXACTLY how STRONGLY you feel about something that a) is beyond our control b) really not an issue because we all currently know how to handle it responsibly or c) can simply ignore it. Yes? Then you're all sad as far as I see it. Stop being twats towards each other, start respecting one anothers feelings and act like FRIENDS. Not like a bunch of opinionated jerks who all want their 2 cents to be glorified. It is threads like this that really make me wonder why I want to be a part of this kind of community. I just can't beleive that people who are supposed to be even remotely alike still get wound up and go off in pissy little fits with one another because of a point of view. Whatever happened to respecting a point of view, taking it on board and moving on? That counts for both sides presented here.

All threads like this do is work people up, piss people off and make people feel ashamed of themselves or feel far better about themselves, and then compare themselves to other members of the community for new, different discussions. Frankly I'm sick of it, in the same way I'm half-sick of this dumb "general" board that lets even me rant on about whatever I want.

I'm not mad at anyone in particular, I just think people should stop fuelling other peoples emotions when they already know where they stand in relation to them. And what's the point in winding someone up further? That's bullying. Obviously some people will hold a strange point of view in context to your beleifs, and challenging that can be intreresting and thought-provoking, but sometimes it's like people don't know when to stop, and that's a great shame.

I'll regret hitting the "post" button here but I think it's time people learned to be more community-orientated, and not self obsessed. There are a lot of good points in this discussion, one that is very difficult for us all - but there really is no need to pressure people who might be upset by comments they've read here. Perhaps if that person starts calling you names, starts acting racist towards you or what not you would then actually have some credibility to start targetting them back, but at this point, absolutely no-one involved in this debate does - yet some seem to think they do.

Ok, I'm going to have to use some examples here to tie things up. Firstly, I want you to know that I've barely EVER talked to ManicMatt. In the last few weeks, he's opened up to me and has been a pretty cool guy, funny, and taken an interest in things I do. That to me, earns respect. Babar, he's a cool guy - I even made music for him, but I can't see why people - especially those from the UK, who wouldn't want to hear me say fuck the nigger coons is quite happy to hear, as Matt said is simply a derogatory term in our country, paki, paki, paki... etc. I don't think Babar quite grasped that "paki" is just as offensive in this country as the word "nigger", and if someone were to blast that word across our forums, would probably be banned. In fact, political correctness has just about "corrected" every word we have - even "pikey" is a racist word nowadays. So Babar, I think you should be careful. It can be very offensive to use that word.

Okay...rant over. Sadly a lot of the other moderators here won't intervene because they want their opinion to be noted as much as any other. So I'm here to tell you to stop being dickheads towards each other. Move on, carry on, and respect how others feel. It may just be an "internet chat" but it's still a direct communication into people's brains!