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Just finished watching the tour and am v. excited. Ulrich seems to be suffering badly. Is this a sign or an act? Armstong seems to me to be stronger than last year. What do you all think? Is any one except farlander intersetd in cycling?

Heh, Im not that interested in cycling, but I thought I might post in this thread cos there arnt any other replys. Armstrong is a cool guy tho, and I hope he does well.

I'm quite a cycling fan. I used to be a cyclist too.

I'm actually amazed how little a challenge these blokes (Ullrich, Mayo, Heras...) are posing to Amstrong.

I got interested in cycling in the times when Indurain ruled over everybody else,  and I used to like him precisely because he actually had strong rivals to beat: Rominger, Bugno, Pantani, Chiapucci, Lemond, Ugrumov, Breukink, Jalabert, Berzin, Riijs... they were all top class riders!!!

And they all attacked him relentlessly, stage after stage. Still, he managed to beat them every year. He was the champion.

Instead, Amstrong just stays behind Rubiera or Azevedo in the climbs, and watches how everybody else just dies out.

He might get six straight Tour de France wins after his cancer. All credit to him, he certainly deserves it.

But somehow I don't think that's enough to consider him the best of all time, given the sort of opposition he has to contend with. 

Whenever, I hear Lance Armstrong's name, I keep thinking he's some kind of dare-devil or action hero.

"Watch as Lance Armstrong jumps his bicycle over a pit filled with killer bees!"

He is the best.

Tomorrow I'll write more... I hope he gets the VIth.

did you see yesterdays stadge? Fanstastic. I think he really can get a 6th. Its a shame that hamilton is out and mayo is struggling so much. Ulrich seems to have cracked. really impressed with basso and voekler.

Unless somebody trips and make all the competitors behind crash and fall as well, watching cycling is a real bore

I can't really understand why somebody can think that Armstrong has no rivals. Lance fought with two young Tour winners, Ullrich and Pantani, whereas Indurain just did it with LeMond, who was at the end of his career. The list of Lance's rivals is huge, Zülle, Ullrich, Pantani, Beloki, Rumsas, Vinokourov, Hamilton, Simoni, Botero, Basso...

The difference is that Lance usually likes to crush them in the first important stage for not having to fight again. Induráin was told to be generous, but I think he was coward. He gave stage victories to Rominger, Ciapucci, Rijs... just for not make them turn mad and go on with his boring winning-Tour style (Great time trials and boring mountain stages). Lance loves to challenge them to the limit and crush them, with the result that their moral is kaputt for this and the next year. That'w why he has not rivals, they're all different each Tour.

I remember that Beloki atacked him twice at Mont Ventoux in 2002. The basque tried it again, but that made Lance go mad and he counter-stroke... the result, Lance won 4,20 minutes against Beloki that day. Wouldn't you think twice to attack him again?

And it's the cancer stuff... What I learnt with Lance is that you can have a complete life after Cancer... With Indurain the message that was sent to me was "Champions do not use helmet". People was going to the roads with no protection arguing that the 5-time winner did not use it. I think he undirectly caused dozens of deaths.

And of course... there is the Luz Ardiden Stage, the most touching stage in cycling history.  :)

Perhaps my previous post was a bit over the top. I guess I just feel it's a bit of a let down that nobody can face up to Amstrong this year. Competition-wise, I think this is being a bit of a soft one, that's all.

There is no use denying Amstrong's merit. He is the best around.

But Indurain was better in my opinion, and I think his rivals were stronger. And that's just that, my own opinion.Ã,  Ã, ;)

Still, Farlander, respecful as I am of your views (because I think you have a valid point, and you're entitled to think as you wish), I disagree with some of them.Ã,  :)

Especially, since you're a cyclist and you know what the sport is like, you'll have to give me that calling someone who has won the Tour the France five times out of sheer humility and hard work a "coward", and holding him responsible for "dozens of deaths" is also a bit far-fetched.

QuoteHe gave stage victories to Rominger, Ciapucci, Rijs... just for not make them turn mad and go on with his boring winning-Tour style (Great time trials and boring mountain stages).

I've been watching cycling ever since Pedro Delgado lost in the last stage to Stephen Roche (that's 1987), and I can assure you Indurain has offered some of the most exciting mountain stages I've seen.

Remember that Giro d'Italia stage in Oropa? He was "maglia rosa", and the second, third, fourth and fifth all belonged to the Gewiss team (Ugrumov, Argentin, Berzin...). They were all less than three minutes away on the general standings, and they all attacked time after time, yet he managed to keep the maglia.Ã, 

That same year he caught Pantani in the Mortirolo (which is probably the hardest climb in Europe) and went on to win the Giro.Ã,  Then, he went on to the Tour de France, where, they had made a pressumably "anti-Indurain" itinerary (putting more climbs in, taking off one of the two time-trials).

Or remember in Lourdes-Hautacam, when Rominger was regarded as the best climber around, and Indurain (who was -in theory- the "victim") absolutely killed him and everybody else?

Perhaps he wasn't as "explosive" in mountain stages. But you have to bear in mind he weighed over 85 kg. He just had a different style, and he did attack, but in his own way (that is: gear up, steady pace, gear up, steady pace, gear up, steady pace).

QuoteInduráin was told to be generous, but I think he was coward. He gave stage victories to Rominger, Ciapucci, Rijs... just for not make them turn madÃ, 

I remember that Beloki atacked Amstrong twice at Mont Ventoux in 2002. The basque tried it again, but that made Lance go mad and he counter-stroke... the result, Lance won 4,20 minutes against Beloki that day. Wouldn't you think twice to attack him again?

Even if he conceeded stages, the others would not stop attacking him (remember how Chiapucci was termed "the devil" because he would never yield?). Others, like Rominger, Zulle and Bugno also had a taste of what it was to be caught time after time.

I think, more than coward you could say "generous" (remember when he attracted all the attention in the closing stages of the Colombia World Championships so that Olano could shoot off and take the gold medal?). He was not only a star, but also a good team player.

Besides, I don't think those guys would have been very happy just winning stages if they thought they had a chance to hit the big money.

QuoteI think he undirectly caused dozens of deaths.

Indurain did wear a helmet, at least in the flat stages (no one can be expected to wear a helmet during the climbs. Amstrong doesn't do it either). Helmets only became compulsory in 1995 (I think it's a bit far-fetched to accuse him of indirectly causing dozens of deaths, since everyone rode like that in those days). By your rule of thumb, I could say that the message Amstrong has given me is "if a beautiful young singer comes your way, then you should dump your wife and kids and run off with her", right? That would make Amstrong indirectly responsible for thousands of broken families. And that perhaps wouldn't be very fair, would it?

I don't think the message Indurain conveyed was that of an irresponsible person. In fact, I think humility and hard work were the values that best matched his style. He never said a word louder than the other, and all his public comments were always respectful.

On the other hand, when Amstrong took advantage of Mayo's fall the other day to get almost four minutes on him... well, I just couldn't help thinking that I've seen Indurain put the whole of his team ahead of the pack to stop it when a rival had fell over or had a punture (Rominger in 1994, for example). And Ullrich and Mayo waited for Amstrong last year in the Alps, when he fell over.

Obviously, Amstrong is entitled to take advantage of those happenings. But I think Indurain's overall approach to the sport was more... sportmanlike.

QuoteLance loves to challenge them to the limit and crush them, with the result that their moral is kaputt for this and the next year. That'w why he has not rivals, they're all different each Tour.

Not many riders repeated podium with Indurain either... they also got sick of him.

Besides, Indurain did not care only for the Tour de France. He did win Giro and Tour in the same season three times. It can't be ignored that he was in top-notch form from May to July, and had to fight off opponents who prepared specifically for Giro and Tour.

Each great champion has his own style. Indurain did have his defects, I would have also liked to see him win everything he could, like Amstrong does, and I would have also liked him to be more spectacular, but, you know, it's just the way he was... and precisely that low-key style of Indurain's is what really appeals to me: the humble champion.

And that is by no means intended to deny Amstrong's merit, which is great...Ã,  ;)

hey, the response was not related to anyone in particular!  ;)

There is a think I am sure about in life... You can try to convince people to change their feelings about football teams, political parties... And you won't succed!  ;D

I want to change my previous "Indurain's boring mountain stages" into "Indurain's mountain staged bored me".

I am not discussed who is better, or who gave more spectacle. I just say that Lance touches me more.

I remember the Ugrumov stage, but, see how differents our feelings were... I was willing to see Piotr win the Maglia. :D Again, in Hautacam I felt like "Oh, no, Rominger is not good, boring Tour ahead".

About the helmet stuff, dunno if you're in Madrid when Miguel was a mediathic star... He constantly tld that the Helmet was uncomfortable, ridiculous and unnefective, whereas Lance is it's main deffensor, first after's Flavio Casartelli's death, and after Kivilev's, to be more concise.

But, hey... I don't think you or me are wrong... All the topics are valid, even aiming to "opposite" ways.

The good of cyclism is that you can love all the riders at time, not like in football, or something (have you ever seen a merengue who wants FC Barcelona to win something? ;)). I do like Miguel, but I like Lance a little more.

Righto. So that's sorted out.Ã, 

BTW I'm a staunch merengue fan.Ã,  ;D

Mate, it looks like we're not gonna agree in too many things. :-\..Ã, 

And coming back to this year's Tour... I don't think Amstrong is gonna have any further trouble taking it (unless Basso pulls off something reaaaally special).

The preferences about who's your favourite rider, football team or poltical party are the ones I take in less consideration.  :) We agree in our love for cycling and the riders, that is a nice start!

Be sure to receive a PM if I go to the capital some day.  :)

QuoteBe sure to receive a PM if I go to the capital some day.

I'll take your word for it  ;D

Lance won, and now he's in yellow! Great news with families suffering cancer. At least we can say them everyday "look what can happen after cancer, granny!"

The Spanish press has criticised CSC severely for helping US Postal chase Ullrich.

I think CSC did well, even in they indirectly favoured Amstrong.

Once Basso decided not to follow Ullrich's attack, his second place was in danger (Ullrich is a much better time-trialist, and there are plenty of time trials left - there are also a couple of mountain stages where Ullrich could attack, he looks like he's finishing strong).

If Amstrong wins today, that almost necessarily means he'll take the big prize in Paris.

But for the sport's sake, could someone (besides Ullrich) please make a move on him?

agreed. people say they get dored of armstrong (people, not me) but personally i get bored f the people attacking hime. nobody but the big four attacked him. I'm glad basso is finally showing himself. Rooting for lance tonight. Is basso much of a TTist?

As you've probably seen, Basso is not too much of a time trialist, although he fought gallantly, I thought.

I don't know what you guys think, but to me Amstrong's gonna win hands down. He comes from a different planet.

I say, let's have a bet for sunday's podium in Paris.

My take:

1. Amstrong
2. Ullrich
3. Kloden

The spanish press is just stupid, most of the sport diaries just know about soccer and they write crap about anything else. Some of they "pearls" of wisdom are "Cancer improves to help your performance" and "Lance has crushed it's body too much during his tri-athlete time, he won't wim more than 3 tours".

I am a fan of cyclism, but I just Lance to won the 6th to tell my relatives suffering cancer "See? Look what a cancer survivor can do!"

So, just for this time, I'll forget my desires of seeing spectacle and I'll just pray for Lance.

If I'm correct, Lance rides for the USPS, and I'd let that human bullet deliver my mail any day.

This is the first time I've seen sledging in cycling, what with the "Lance Sucks" on the road and the like. Cycling never seemed tribalistic enough to produce that.

I suppose it's in every sport.

QuoteThis is the first time I've seen sledging in cycling, what with the "Lance Sucks" on the road and the like.

Amstrong-sledging?  ???

I suppose you're refering to the press... I don't think anyone of us is into denying Amstrong's merit.

QuoteCycling never seemed tribalistic enough to produce that.

Cycling is not too much of a tribalistic sport in Australia, but it can be so in countries where there is more of a tradition (ie, Spain, Italy, France, Germany, Belgium or Holland). 

Still, it's not soccer...

I mean the crowd spitting on him, and the graffiti on the road telling him he sucks and the like.
McEwen was copping it as well.

Funny, I didn't notice.

It's a shame that can happen.

I mean, why would anyone do that sort of thing?

didn't notice any spitting but some of the road graffiti was just genius:
"Rip their balls off lance!"

Made me laugh anyway. I really think lance is capable of winning a sixth. It would be fantastic. as long as he stays out of touble we should be in for something special.

Whereas I'm quite friendly with the Basques, there are some things of them I don't like. They have some feeling of being superior race, and not just that, they use some hints to prove that. One of those "evidences" is to say that a basque is the best cyclist in History.Ã,  Induráin is not basque, not only because he is from Pamplone, but also because he doesn't feel Basque. With the Euskaltel thingie and such hopes put on Mayo, the things went awful when Mayo was crushed in this Tour.

Armstrong did not crush Mayo, or Heras, if you want to applicate the previous sentence to the "spanish" crowd. They were behind 50 or 100 riders before abandoning the Tour, not just Lance. Focusing their frustations in Lance is stupid, and they're bad news to translate that "soccerish" attitudes to cycling.

Biking is not about flags or teams. The Tour is just the 200 best representants of the human race (talking about cycling aspects) against the road. All of this guys deserve support.

(http://www.marca.com/ficheros/marca/fotos04/Ciclismo/armstrong_crono225x330.jpg)

I fully agree.

I think Ullrich should have one last year, Basso is doing pretty well this year though.

Have you seen that? His hungry of victories is infinite...

Thanks for the support.  ;)

That's allright.  ;D

should have posted earlier but forgot. Soo. sixth win. that was something eh? He's going for a seventh under his new team. (discovery) that would just be amaaaazing