London Riots - OR - What's your favourite thing about Hitler?

[Bror_Jon]

@Matti: Stop trolling please! 

[Sonny Bonds]

The way I see it, the English government totally mishandled this situation. Why didn't they deploy watercannons or used rubber bullets from the start? I heard one of those politicians mention it would be inhumane to do so, but in the end 4 innocent people died.

However, I like how they're systematically tracing looters and rioters so their criminal acts won't go unpunished. Thank god for CCTV. One of the most important tools in fighting crime!

[Ali]

The way I see it, the English government totally mishandled this situation. Why didn't they deploy watercannons or used rubber bullets from the start?

Because that would have been inappropriate.

Overlooking the danger of escalating violence clashes, water cannons and rubber bullets are used to disperse crowds. The recent riots were many separate instances of looting and violence, there was not one large body of people to disperse. Water cannons and rubber bullets wouldn't have achieved anything.

I'd normally take any opportunity to criticise the coalition government, but they were right to avoid a disproportionately violent response.

[InCreator]

Though a bit extreme, this woman does possess clear logic:

http://melaniephillips.com/how-the-liberals-ruined-britain

Collapse of morals and traditional culture (of which, religion CAN BE a part) behind it is pretty much what could lead to such corrupted thinking and emotions that makes people burn down their home street. I'm not preacher of traditional family values nor religious in any way, but maybe chilling the fuck down and trying to fill crazy heads and minds with something that has proven itsself over centuries would help.

In other words, maybe UK should tone down on piranha capitalism and re-domesticate lower class using traditional methods, like nationalism, religion or football. Get everyone involved into something. They sure do want to cooperate and feel united... just that rioting on street isn't the best form of it I think.

Yankees know how to do it perfectly. Like creating image of common enemy in every 5-10 years...

[Snarky]

The flaw in all these arguments about how "liberals ruined Britain" and how "the collapse of morals and traditional culture" is to blame for these riots is that these things have happened throughout history. In fact, since the last time English cities burned on a large scale - in the eighties - it's been an unusually long period of calm, so it'd be more logical to argue that liberal policies have reduced the frequency of riots.

Yes, there are probably problems in British society and culture that need to be addressed so people will behave decently, but they are not new developments.

[Sonny Bonds]

The way I see it, the English government totally mishandled this situation. Why didn't they deploy watercannons or used rubber bullets from the start?

Because that would have been inappropriate.

Overlooking the danger of escalating violence clashes, water cannons and rubber bullets are used to disperse crowds. The recent riots were many separate instances of looting and violence, there was not one large body of people to disperse. Water cannons and rubber bullets wouldn't have achieved anything.

I'd normally take any opportunity to criticise the coalition government, but they were right to avoid a disproportionately violent response.

I may be in the wrong here, but judging by some of these photo's I've seen crowds of rioters outnumbering the police force ten to one. Instead of having the means necessary to drive these crowds back, the police were forced to retreat and give up their space numerous times. I can assure you their desire to riot and loot would be a lot less if only a couple of their friends were made an example of in a non-lethal way. That's what I meant with the usage of rubber bullets.

Criminals need to be dealt with swiftly, they should never feel like they're the ones running the show.

[Ali]

I may be in the wrong here, but judging by some of these photo's I've seen crowds of rioters outnumbering the police force ten to one.  Instead of having the means necessary to drive these crowds back, the police were forced to retreat and give up their space numerous times. I can assure you their desire to riot and loot would be a lot less if only a couple of their friends were made an example of in a non-lethal way. That's what I meant with the usage of rubber bullets.

Criminals need to be dealt with swiftly, they should never feel like they're the ones running the show.

As I said, there were several violent confrontations but it's wrong to imagine the riots were happening in one place with one large group of people who need to be dispersed.

I'm afraid I'm not convinced by your assurances that a spot of violence on the police's part would have cleared matters up. If the police had taken extreme measures then the stakes would have been raised. I think it's much more likely that it would have resulted in more violent retaliation.

[WHAM]

The ordinary people have limited capacity for violent response, and in a well run state, the police and the government always have more power at their disposal than the common rabble.

If the police escalate, the normal people will give in and go home, in fear of violence and pain.
The ones who remain on the streets are trash, animals and criminals, and those deserve no mercy on the part of the police.

There should not be a "spot of violence" on the police's part, I'm talking about decisive action to control, assimilate and annihilate these criminal masses who are wrecking the streets, ruining thousands of lives and businesses and causing deaths of good police officers who live to serve and protect the common citizen.

[Sonny Bonds]

I may be in the wrong here, but judging by some of these photo's I've seen crowds of rioters outnumbering the police force ten to one.  Instead of having the means necessary to drive these crowds back, the police were forced to retreat and give up their space numerous times. I can assure you their desire to riot and loot would be a lot less if only a couple of their friends were made an example of in a non-lethal way. That's what I meant with the usage of rubber bullets.

Criminals need to be dealt with swiftly, they should never feel like they're the ones running the show.

As I said, there were several violent confrontations but it's wrong to imagine the riots were happening in one place with one large group of people who need to be dispersed.

I'm afraid I'm not convinced by your assurances that a spot of violence on the police's part would have cleared matters up. If the police had taken extreme measures then the stakes would have been raised. I think it's much more likely that it would have resulted in more violent retaliation.

You can't beat the police, even though technically any police force in the world is outnumbered by civilians, not everyone is willing to wage war against a well-trained organisation such as the police. WHAM is right that after any such violent response from the police, a majority of them would retreat and call it a day. They know they can't beat the police and they won't even try.

I am not trying to condone violence here, but these criminals should have been dealt with in the only way they would understand. Physical punishment.

[Ali]

If you're going to keep talking about criminals as if they're a different species, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Sonny Bonds]

Yeah, because I am not buying the "they're just normal people with problems" rhetoric. People like you (I hope) and me would never participate in these kind of riots and lootings because we have standards and values. No matter how tempting a free LCD-TV is, if you take something which is not yours, you are a thief. Taking advantage of a city in shambles is exactly what seperates a criminal from a upstanding citizen.

Indeed, I judge people by their actions, and the way these rioters destroyed their own city deserve nothing but contempt. So yes, I judge them as if they're another species and thats how they should be treated.

[Calin Leafshade]

Was Sonny Bonds like this in the games?

The reality is that we dont live in a society which thinks that people forfeit their rights the second they break the law. If you actually look at some of the people who were arrested and charged then you find that they *are* normal people. Sometimes kids who have had no other brushes with the law at all.

History has frequently taught us that mob mentality can turn ordinary, hard working people into criminals very very quickly.

[WHAM]

And it is the GOOD people who can resist mob mentality, can identify it and can respond to it in a calm and collected manner. It is the BAD people, who cannot control their emotions, their greed and their violence. To be more precise: their ANIMALITY.

It is these people we could do without, it is these people we should, indeed, we MUST control and contain.

[Calin Leafshade]

I suggest that you read Lord of the Flies.

[WHAM]

I take it that's for me, Calin. I've read Lord of the Flies, and enjoyed it greatly, thank you. I actually read it twice.
In my opinion it is a wonderfully accurate depiction of how human society is brought down by its lesser, though more numerous, elements, and how the wise ones are pushed into the sidelines as weak and unwanted.

In a wild environment it is the wild who survive. We must fight to keep our society from collapsing back into a wilderness, to keep it civilized and hospitable.

[Bror_Jon]

In a wild environment it is the wild who survive. We must fight to keep our society from collapsing back into a wilderness, to keep it civilized and hospitable.

Yes, and forfeiting people's right is deeply uncivilized. You seem to want to fight evil with evil, you can't do this and claim the moral high-ground.

To me this all sounds like:
"What?! They are causing us harm? LET'S HARM THEM!!!"
...Which is fucking insane.

[Dualnames]

The so called civilization is what keeps people like [name any politician here] alive, and people in countries all over Africa die from hunger. And not just people. KIDS !!!

So, please, this isn't civilization. This is and always have been an elegant way to hide the real problems.

I prefer wildness over this.
At least there you know, who holds the rock.

[ddq]

Disregard for human rights makes me a sad panda.

[Sonny Bonds]

Lets not forget that technically speaking certain people's rights are already forfeited when they commit a crime and are 'robbed of their freedom' for it. That's what current law dictates.

Point is, if you can't control your urges and get dragged away in the mob mentality of stealing and vandalizing stuff, or even rob people, you should not cry police brutality if you get your ass kicked. Just because they're doing it, is not an excuse and you should be held responsible to the fullest extent of the law possible.

[Sonny Bonds]

Was Sonny Bonds like this in the games?

You're right. I am pretty sure he did not engage in political discussions on internet forums.