I'm sorry England, but seven explosions just tore up the Subway system over there. I haven't heard any one hurt, but I can only hope that these terrorists didn't take anyone out in their psycho bombings. I just heard that it took place at a potentially busy time.
My deepest sympathy.
London was always going to be busy at the time. I'm not quite sure exactly how many explosions there have been or the damage they have done, too many mixed reports at the moment.
It's unfortunate too that any prospect of an African centred G8 summit has been scuppered. It claims victims in a wide radius I guess.
Explosions at 6 tube stations and on 3 buses. Dave Gilbert is supposed to be flying back to New York today and was staying in the city, and I think AGA, scotch, Creed and Iqu are supposed to be travelling home through London. I hope they're all safe :(
It's pretty horrible... and I'm worried that Las may be right; that hadn't occured to me.
I was in London meeting up with some special just last week. She would have been in Liverpool Street Station at this time. Luck and bad luck are strewn equally.
I hate these fucking people. I really hate them.
I hope everyone is okay.
I also hope they're safe. Damnit. Some claim it's a flaw in the metro electrical system, but 3 buses blowing up isn't really dependant on that. I think it's an attack. I really REALLY hope everyone is safe.
BBC Report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4659093.stm)
Just heard about it on the radio, and my first thought was "Who's still at Brittens? Are they OK?" The worst of it looks to be on the other side of London, but it's still going to be hell for anyone travelling through the city.
It's fucking terrible. Two of my friend were traveling to meet someone in london today i almost went out of mind when i heard about it. Lucky for them they hadnt reached london yet, about 20 miles away. I really hope everyone is okay, the Britteners are on my mind too; god i hope they're okay.
Man this is really bad. I heard it on the radio and its on TV now. I think its been confirmed that there have been 2 fatalities. I hope there arn't any more and that all you Londoners are all safe. :(
2 fatalities? more like 20...
The numbers haven't been confirmed yet, all they have confirmed are 2 deaths, but i'm sure there will be plenty more when things clear up.
Tony Blair is returning to London for the evening from the G8 thing.
I think Dave Gilbert is in London sight seeing.
Lets hope he's okay.
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/07/london.tube/index.html
I don't know what to say...
I really hope all the Britteneers are ok, and ofcource anyone else, but watching at the reports anywhere... there have surely been way more casualities than just two :(
Yeah, I heard about it too :(. This is really terrible. I just woke up and the first thing I saw when I went to the kitchen was "2 deaths, 185 injured" on the TV. The deaths are going to be more than that, but let's just hope there wen't too many
The Londoners on the news seem remarkably calm, especially when you consider that the cameras would be looking for the hysterical and screaming since they make more dramatic footage.
Stiff upper lip, what what.
I've been to London last Friday and I used the tube ...
"It is particularly barbaric this has happened on a day when people are meeting to try to help the problems of poverty in Africa and the long term problems of climate change and the environment.
"Just as it's reasonably clear this is a series of terrorist attacks, it's also reasonably clear, that it is designed and meant to coincide with the G8."
if this is true it's just sick.
This is pretty much shitty. Al Quaeda's supposed to be involved now, my dad's been called into work and Tony Blair's caved in and is on his way home.
From what I've seen on the news everything seems to be under control, and no more deaths have been reported...yet.
Essentially I think it's safe to say "Don't worry, world. We're going to be okay."
Just terrible! Ã,Â
Why do some people in this world have such little or no value for human life?
Why can't these people that do such horrid acts just "live and let live"? So what if someone is a different race, has a different culture, or different religion or whatever it may be... that is still never any reason to commit such terrible acts.
As crazy and messed up things are in this world, I don't think I will ever comprehend these senseless acts of violence which hurt, maim and kill so many innocent people.
My prayers and best wishes go out to all affected by this and other similar tragedies.
It's awful that these things have to happen. I'm portuguese and as my brothers say "from the Azores Summit, Lisbon is the one who's missing", well I hope not. First the United States, then Spain, now England. Since September 11 and March 11 thatÃ, there are security tests on our Lisbon Subway but we sometimes think, and as today was proven (London has a much better security system) that maybe won't be enough, specially on rush hour.Ã, There's no reason to do such attacks, they are not muslims, they are only doing it for their radical beliefs. Such attacks only cause more racism between white and other people, and I understand that not every muslim is a terrorist. But I know what is like to have the fear of a terrorist attack: one of my older brothers was in Madrid, at a Fashion Fair (he's a designer) when the March 11 attacks ocurred; you probably can't imagine my panic when I tried to reach him at the phone and got no answer; luckily he suffered no harm, but he saw the pavillion next to his being transformed into a huge morgue as bodies were taken to it. I don't know if I was saying that "not every muslim is a terrorist" if something had happen to him, I'd probably be filled with haitred and those type of feelings; none of this should had to happen.
God have mercy on the souls of those who perished.
As we will probably know in the next hours, there shouldÃ, be a lot of them.
All the agsers who were leaving today are ok. Havent heard from dave gilbert though, but he should have been at the airport at the time the bombs went off.
I'm just sickened by this whole thing. Whoever is responsible are barbarians and savages without a trace of humanity. It's disgusting. My thoughts go out to everyone affected by this.
TB didn't cave in, he's going to London briefly today.
He did say that this wouldn't affect the G8 discussions.
My brother uses one of the underground stations to get to work. Fortunately he's on holiday this week.
I felt sick when I heard of it this morning on Radio 2.
I have no hatred for any religious beliefs, but I do have a hatred for anyone that uses such beliefs as an excuse to harm anyone. These people, they are not only cowards, but should be ashamed that they've become so blinded by hatred, that they feel any need to hurt.
Frankly, I hope they fucking rot in hell.
Quote from: Cluey on Thu 07/07/2005 15:53:09Frankly, I hope they fucking rot in hell.
Here, here...
NBC is now saying there are at least 33 deaths, and more than 300 injured. My heart goes out to everyone in London. I'm scared to think of what this means for the future, at least in terms of the security measures we'll see. I live in the US now, and they're saying they've raised the terror alert for all major transportation systems in the country. This wasn't in response to any particular threat, but "because if it happened there, it could happen here." I'm not afraid, I just think that's a terrible reason.
I was living here when 9/11 happened, and I remember when they created "homeland security," and the colour-coded alert system, and all these other measures that were supposed to protect us. Now we have two increasingly costly wars to boot, no exit strategy, and probably no great blows struck against terrorism despite it all. Somehow, the only feeling I have is sadness.
Aparently MI5 and the London MET have foiled other terrorist attacks, but they said that they knew it was just a matter of time before someone successfully bombed London. The phrase they used was "shocked but not surprised".
I live in Northern Ireland, and the near constant terrorist and paramilitary bombings have de-sensitised me somewhat, but it still sickens me that people do these things.
No cause can be worth this.
No cause is worth any amount of suffering.
Everyon sees that these terrorists are tiny, and that in time, they will meet justice.
Terrorism is large in todays world, they cause hurt, pain, despair and submittance, the only answer, is to say to them, "No, you wont fuck with us, because we know we are better than you, who would kill innocents from afar, and yet never show your face"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660391.stm
I believe any religion will state that killing is wrong, any decent person would be sickened by this, regardless of religion. I just hope this event does not raise the levels of racism towards the muslim community, as it is not their fault at all.
On the subject of Karma, someone raised on another forum, we must not forget the atrocities of our own nations, Hiroshima etc. We must resolve not to commit any more acts of atrocity, and use the past to create a greater world.
I was just woken up (Canadian West Coast) by my mom who was watching CNN. It's just terrible. I know amazing friends of mine who are currently in London, and I'm hoping for their safety.
My condolences to the families of everyone hurt in these explosions.
QuoteThis wasn't in response to any particular threat, but "because if it happened there, it could happen here."Ã, I'm not afraid, I just think that's a terrible reason.
If that were the reason then you'd be right. But I don't think it is. More to the point, they seem to believe it's Al Queda, and they know Al Queda likes to do things in waves to inflict maximum terror. So it's not unimagineable that they'd plan several waves of attacks in different countries; I've read that this was the initial plan in the early 9/11 stages. Anyway, I think the real reason they've raised the alert level here in the U.S. is to make us "feel better" -- to feel like it's safe to go to work, etc., today. I think it's mostly a psychological tool to reassure people.
My condolences ... yet again terror strikes the civilized world. My heart goes out to anybody affected by this shit.
It's sad but I don't think there will ever be an end to terrorism.
Not with the way we're handling it now.
The more we hunt them down and kill them, the more hatred we create. This hatred drives the desperate into acts of terrorism.
We should be focusing on why they do it, and take steps from there.
Now I'll admit ... hunting them down and killing them is far more gratifying. But it's like cutting off your toe if you have a hang-nail. It may solve one problem, but it just creates [potentially many] others.
The solution shouldn't be to kill them all ... the solution should be to stop creating them in the first place.
A sad day ...
33 deaths... this is just horrible. I really don't know what to say. Sometimes world seems to be too cruel... :(
I am shocked, even it was a forseeable occasion. This will drag the world more into the hands of conservative radicals no matter which denomination they represent.
Over here in the US, they're taking this oportunity to bring fear and terror to Americans by raising the terror alert levels and closing the railways, and the news are on it like crazy. I guess that once in a while they have to remind them that the world outside is really scary as hell, and that they're not even safe in their own homes without The Amazing Supergovernment.
I think it's just horrible how innocent civilians have to pay the price, no matter what place or time it is. I do hope that the government(s) do not take "revenge" by "liberating" another country that is somehow and not quite tied to all of this.
I hope that the AGSers who were in London this morning report back here or in the brittens return thread, just to know that they're fine.
Totally shocking :o First thing you hear in the morning and it is bad news. At first I thought something happened at Glen Eagles but this was worst, Im not sure how many are dead or injured as each channel had a different number sadly on the increase. Sick... truely sick >:(
scotch and aga are fine, they're on a train back to wales now.
haven't heard of dave gilbert, mattgoble and iqu, though.
"blessed military raid..."
I've never heard such total crap in my life.
I would also like to offer condolences to all who suffered from this.
Hi there -
If anyone hears back (or has already) heard from Dave Gilbert since the bombings PLEASE send me an email ... I am his sister and my family and I have been trying to get information about his wherabouts all day. I was told that he probably wasn't traveling near the explosions, but I have been reading all of the posts and it seems that no one has heard from him so I am worried. If anyone has any info on what time his flight from Gatwick was please let me know... alisongilb@hotmail.com
thanks
Alison
Just got my comp back...
I think there's no room here for saying more than "I'm sorry, and best wishes for the people in London..."
This is terrible. My sister told me over MSN this morning that there had been several explosions in London. My brother turned on the tv and we watched the news.
After the news, my emotions were kind of mixed. I hope all the britteners are okay, as well as all the others.
Well, it's no 9/11 but it's equally horrid and fucked up.
I, too, hope all the Britteners are safe.
Quote from: [lgm] on Thu 07/07/2005 19:16:18
Well, it's no 9/11
That is the dumbest
fucking thing I have ever heard.
My condolences to the families and friends of the victims.
Jesus....this was about the first thing that i heard about when I woke up. After the shock wore off, it hit me to start checking, to make sure everybody i know in London is alright. After reading this thread, it looks like a lot of the brittins folks already checked in. Good. I pray that everybody is safe again.
I live in Washington DC now. Riding the Metro is going to be a totally differenet experience I bet.
My prayers are with you all, i hope everybody is alright
-Matt
Oh God, Al. I didn't mean "Oh America is better because we lost 3000+ people in 2 huge plane crashes and building collapses"
I sympathize deeply for everyone affected. I didn't mean for my comment to be insensitive and belittling to the victims in London.
I'll stop talking before you can misquote me again. I did also say it was " equally horrid and fucked up."
I do send my condolonces and London will be in my prayers tonight.
My heart goes out to the relatives of the britteners, and we all hope and pray that they will return safely.
EDIT: This morning's copy of the telegraph mentions that there was an electrical fault on a London subway this morning. And yet know I hear that there may be up to 50 dead.
I'd also like to point out that I have muslim friends, and although Al Queda is not necessarily responsible I'd like to point out that the Islamic faith does not condone the actions or methods of these extremist groups.
Quote from: [lgm] on Thu 07/07/2005 19:53:32
I'll stop talking before you can misquote me again.
Misquote?
There aren't many other ways, or any, for that matter, to interpret what you said other than one that is belittling and dumb. Or, uh. Or did you just try to let us know that they were not, in fact, the same event? I'm sure most of us know that.
Please explain, if even just in PM, because I am pretty damn curious as to what you meant.
Quote from: Al_Ninio on Thu 07/07/2005 19:28:27
Quote from: [lgm] on Thu 07/07/2005 19:16:18
Well, it's no 9/11
That is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard.
I don't think that was all necessary, Al. It might have been an irrelevant reflection, but hardly worth such strong words.
As for the attack; we simply have to prepare ourselves for these kinds of things in the future. As Darth put it (amen, brother)
Quote
The more we hunt them down and kill them, the more hatred we create. This hatred drives the desperate into acts of terrorism.
We should be focusing on why they do it, and take steps from there.
Why believe and hope that they
wouldn't do it, after all the suffering we (countries like the UK) have caused them?
Why believe that certain actions do not have reactions? That's absurdly naîve.
As long as we speak in terms of "revenge", "war against terror", "good guys versus bad guys", etc, we will have to accept the circle of violence. Every person in this thread who have used these words and phrases will have to accept it. Everything else is hypocricy.
Or maybe you don't have to accept it, but at least you have to expect it to last forever.
I feel for the londoners, but
not one little bit more than I feel for the victims of western (not least the English) foreign policies, which caused this to happen.
AGA and I are fine, we were walking around Central London most of the day (carrying all my camping stuff which weighs a ton, damn you terrorists!), because all the trains and busses and our coach home weren't running. Ã, Police everywhere, but all the armed CTs were base camping at Scotland Yard, not a lot to do for them now, I guess... Anyway, we managed to get a train out of Waterloo and made it back to Wales without paying.
Doesn't seem to be that huge of an attack now I'm back, thankfully. Ã, We didn't really know what was going on at the time. Ã, It's no 9/11 (though AGA suggested that today would be called the 7th of the 7th, while having lunch).
Aside from the lack of busses and tubes and mostly just police traffic London was quite busy, and nobody was panicked. Ã, I'm not sure what Dave would be doing now, I expect he'll find an internet cafe and post soon.
At Staines train station it put the tubes being down to "an electrical fault" too :) Ã, Stupidly we ignored the announcer telling people not to bother going to London today.
I hope everyone travelling home from Brittens is alright, this is yet another terrible attack. While LGM is fair to say that it's on a different scale to the WTC attacks, that doesn't change the fact that yet more innocent people have been killed for no good reason.
If the terrorists have a problem with the Iraq/Afghanistan wars, then why not attack those responsible, such as the government and the army. Attacking civilians is such a cowardly way to do things.
I suppose this was bound to happen sooner or later, it's quite impressive really that the security services had managed to stop it happening for so long.
Oh, and to Alison and Dave's family;
Until we hear from Dave, just bear in mind that there have been about 50 casualties in an area of literally millions of people - the risk of anything happening Dave is statistically infinitesimal. We have to expect that he'll find an internet café sooner or later. Try not to worry in the meantime.
My sympathies.
PS:
Pumaman and Al; incidentally, Scotch just used the exact same phrase "it's no 9/11".
i already said in #ags that in my opinion dave got his flight and has no idea about all this - his plane left at 11am (according to haddas), he was last active on the forums at 10:30.. that could mean he checked in, found an internet terminal and browsed the web/forums until he had to board his plane.
he then should be landing in new york (or wherever he was heading, as long as it's near the east coast) about now or in the next hour(s).
QuoteI'd also like to point out that ... the Islamic faith does not condone the actions or methods of these extremist groups.
You know, I've heard this said a lot, but it's not really true. Some intrepretations of Islam don't condone it, but there sure as hell are some that do.
EDIT: To be clear, I feel for those that do
not condone it and get unfairly grouped in with the extremists. I just mean to say that there are too many people out there who are Muslim and do believe in this stuff. This being exhibit A.
Quote from: Chapter 11 Studios on Thu 07/07/2005 21:02:52
I just mean to say that there are too many people out there who are Muslim and do believe in this stuff. This being exhibit A.
And what about christianity? Which religion do you reckon have most lives on their concience?
Sorry to start an argument, but a terrorist act like this cannot allow us to all of a sudden make rash and irrational generalisations regarding world religions.
I'm solidly atheistic and I've never murdered a soul. My issues with religion go deeper than Islam.
QuoteAnd what about christianity? Which religion do you reckon have most lives on their concience? Sorry to start an argument, but a terrorist act like this cannot allow us to all of a sudden make rash and irrational generalisations regarding world religions.
I don't think my statement was any more generalized than the statement that "Islam doesn't condone killing people in the name of religion." There are clearly interpretations of Islam that DO condone it. Just as there are intrepretations of Christianity that have led to some pretty sick and twisted things, too.
Ok, then I get your point.
I just hope that people will regard this in an anthropological point of view rather than theological.
Terrorism is carried out by persons who take advantage of the desperation of their people. You can't wage wars against it, nor can you refute it by debating over holy scrolls.
Something I find rather bizarre about today is that there has actually been less media coverage than when Diana died.
On that day in 1997, radio stations stopped playing pop music and just played sad tunes, TV was non-stop coverage of her death, people were openly crying in the streets, it was crazy.
Today, radio stations continued playing their normal music, TV has had some interruption for news coverage but not too much, and ordinary people continued to go about their daily business.
Yet which of the two events was more important: one person dying in a car crash, or several people being killed and injured by terrorist bombs? Completely bizarre.
Quote from: Pumaman on Thu 07/07/2005 21:47:34
Today, radio stations continued playing their normal music, TV has had some interruption for news coverage but not too much, and ordinary people continued to go about their daily business.
I hope it doesn't show indifference but a victory. Like they say, the most important think isn't not to fall , but to get up when you do...or something like that.
My sympathies to those who didn't have good news today.
Quote from: Andail on Thu 07/07/2005 21:40:40Terrorism is carried out by persons who take advantage of the desperation of their people. You can't wage wars against it, nor can you refute it by debating over holy scrolls.
I agree. And I would probably extrapolate that some terrorist "foot soldiers" have been brainwashed into believing that what they do is in the name of their religion, without really having exposure to an environment that fosters enough context for them to understand just how insane that is. Does that make sense?
cj, i think thats the point, it sound stupid, but its a statement saying that we can't be affected by terrorist attacks.
This makes me so fucking mad, perhaps im just being naive, but i can't see ANY reason for these attacks. Especially on civillians. IF we did do something to deserve these attacks, we didn't randomly blow up 400 civillians to prove just to prove a fucking point.
What a fuck up of a world we live in.
Sympathy to all.
There was an "amateur" video on the news, made by some terrorists, showing, how to create bombs, where to detonate it in a bus to kill as many as possible and some other stuff.
I don't get it, how someone can be such blindfolded by his hatred, his belief or whatsoever. I just don't get it.
My condolences to all, who are involved ...
nihilyst
Quote from: Chapter 11 Studios on Thu 07/07/2005 21:54:19
Quote from: Andail on Thu 07/07/2005 21:40:40Terrorism is carried out by persons who take advantage of the desperation of their people. You can't wage wars against it, nor can you refute it by debating over holy scrolls.
I agree. And I would probably extrapolate that some terrorist "foot soldiers" have been brainwashed into believing that what they do is in the name of their religion, without really having exposure to an environment that fosters enough context for them to understand just how insane that is. Does that make sense?
It makes heaps of sense.
I just try to make people focus on large political systems and motions rather than bad/good people, or bad/good religions.
I see it like:
Centuries of colonialism constitutes horrible living conditions, no resources, food, etc
which leads to ->
extreme poverty, low education
which leads to ->
people more receptive to brainwashing by fanatics
which leads to ->
terrorists, which will focus on their malefactors
the way certain people see it:
Bad people residing in strange far away countries want to commit evil crimes for no reasons.
Quote from: Andail on Thu 07/07/2005 22:28:52
I see it like:
Centuries of colonialism constitutes horrible living conditions, no resources, food, etc
which leads to ->
extreme poverty, low education
which leads to ->
people more receptive to brainwashing by fanatics
which leads to ->
terrorists, which will focus on their malefactors
I think I can see your point, but your phrasing indicates (to me, at least ) certain regions of the world, the usual suspects. I find it disturbing, because what we call "terrorism" may occur everywhere , for various reasons and it's almost purely political (or financial?), while religion is used to make the hesitant ones follow. I don't think blasts in large scale and the like are the only means these people use.
As far as I understand it, and please excuse my generalities here, there is an endless loop going on. To help those who are just up in arms confused how something like this can happen it is as simple, and at the same time complex, as eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
Innocent people were killed in 9/11, and I would guess innocent people before 9/11 have died... Don't let too many people know. When people [stereotypical American] hear of innocent people killed in Iraq (Iraq having had little to do with 9/11, but this is beside the point) they are able to dull down the information because it is justified for the innocent people lost in 9/11. Likewise, people responsible for things like this feel it is justifiable to kill innocent people (And not government organizations) because that is how they have found to strike back against attacks on their hospitals, use of illegal weapons and other such wonderful things America and its allies find justification for using.
I am not going to pretend one side is ultimately right. I think what happened today is terrible. 9/11 was terrible, bombing hospitals and sniping ambulances is terrible, bombing crowded subways is terrible... It is all terrible, and in the end… very few are completely innocent in someones eyes. (No, not God... Pay attention!)
Quote from: Pumaman on Thu 07/07/2005 21:47:34
Something I find rather bizarre about today is that there has actually been less media coverage than when Diana died.
On that day in 1997, radio stations stopped playing pop music and just played sad tunes, TV was non-stop coverage of her death, people were openly crying in the streets, it was crazy.
Today, radio stations continued playing their normal music, TV has had some interruption for news coverage but not too much, and ordinary people continued to go about their daily business.
Yet which of the two events was more important: one person dying in a car crash, or several people being killed and injured by terrorist bombs? Completely bizarre.
tv coverage is exactly what the terrorists want, the more they get the more impact their acts have, it's also good for news stations because it means they get higher ratings and more money from their affiliates.
the best thing the media can do in a situation like this is to not just film panic and chaos that will scare us about what MIGHT happen instead of informing us about what HAS happened.
as for the religious side of it all and the whole "eye for an eye" argument and "ooh they've had it worse and it's just desserts" stuff i just want to say it's pathetic, i am a great believer in revenge but those people most definitely aren't taking revenge on the people repsonsible for their "suffering" over the years: the church and organised religious masses that all hate one another for no reason other than that their beliefs are a different version of the events that really happened from which religions were derived.
but apart from all that i hope that dave gilbert turns up safe.
My sincerest condolences to everyone in London...I heard about this when I woke up and immediately thought about all you Britteneers. This is a terrible tragedy. However, I appreciate the sentiment that we need to address WHY people are doing these things, instead of just bombing their countries into oblivian.
Let's hope Dave is ok, I'm sure he's fine. Hopefully everyone will check in real soon.
-Logan
If you are referring to my post as pathetic, BOYD, I believe you misinterpreted what I was saying.
Talking to Dave right now. He's okay everyone.
awesome news
Quote from: Sylpher on Thu 07/07/2005 23:27:27
If you are referring to my post as pathetic, BOYD, I believe you misinterpreted what I was saying.
i wasn't really referring to anybody's post, just the general attitudes towards trying to justify or injustify and things that are said after a seemingly religiously motivated attack like this.
like i said, i believe in revenge but only on those people responsible, which if you think about it is pretty impossible as the people responsible for all the bad stuff of back then are now dead as are the people that went through it.
Holy freaking CROW. Talk about Ignorance at 10,000 feet.
Who knew that while I was watching Daffy Duck cartoons on the airplane TV (hey, it was either that or "Ice Princess"), there was utter pandemoneoum down below. My family was freaking out and instigating a worldwide dragnet for news. I arrived in NYC totally unaware of what was going on, and when I found out I felt sick to my stomach.
I honestly don't know what to say right now. I was a witness to the 9/11 tragedy, and I wish that you Brits didn't have to go through this now as well. A terrorist attack, no matter how big or small, is always horrible because it is so unexpected and it always affects innocents. It leaves you feeling vulnerable, exposed, and scared. I can't even begin to understand the mindset behind such attacks. I am only reminded of something I read once in an editorial: "The attacks will stop when they realize they love their children more than they hate others." Of course it's never that simple, but it is a sad, sad age we live in when people will gleefully sacrifice themselves and their family to kill innocents bystanders who didn't harm anyone.
I hope this won't turn into a political discussion. Leave that to the polititians. As of now, know that my thoughts and prayers are with you all.
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Fri 08/07/2005 01:17:50
Who knew that while I was watching Daffy Duck cartoons on the airplane TV (hey, it was either that or "Ice Princess"), there was utter pandemoneoum down below.Ã,Â
Wait, what's wrong with "Ice Princess"? ;)
Great to see you're safe Dave. Out of all the people i knew going to/in London you were the last left to check in uninjured. I feel as usual that the media coverage has really tried to blown things out of proportion, they seek the most distressed person to interview and show the most graphic images on television to simply win by shock factor. Which ultimately gets people a lot more worried about the situation and causes grief. I know it's important to bring people the news and help people realise how important these things are, but you'd think that they could do it with a little more respect.
Also, it was just quality sig material. I hope you don't mind scotch.
Phew, so everyone's accounted for. I never realised how many people I knew in London until this happened and now I've been wondering and waiting for word from all sorts of people. Glad you're all okay!
I heard the news this morning. My deepest sympathy to the victims and their families. I do, however, admire the way Londoners have responded to the attack. The response plan was executed, people remained calm (as possible, considering the circumstances), and the situation is being dealt with in a very collected manner. TV coverage aside, this reaction is their greatest asset. The only reason for attack against civilians to to instill fear in the populous, not giving them that reaction doesn't repair damage from the attack but does make their attack essentially worthless (as regarding their cause).
From an American viewpoint, I've always viewed Britain as a sibling and today, my brother has made me proud. Since we've little control over our government's or military's response to events like these, we should take a long look at the people actually affected. In this case, I think it's far more encouraging than any governmental response we've seen in the days since 9/11/01.
Ken Livingstone (the mayor), regardless of what the population's thought of him concerning other policies, gave an excellent oration - one that is more apt to give courage and pride in one's country than a speech that feeds the terror in the people's heart and provokes anger and hatred.
I think its commendable how Londoners are trying to carry on as normal today. I think the phrase Mr Blair used was "business as usual".
Whilst at first this may seem disrespectful to those who have lost loved ones, letting something like this cause a big wave is like letting the terrorists win.
I wouldn't have considered this point of view, but when I heard it on the news earlier I thought it was quite profound, since these were the words of a commuter as he stepped of a train.
Glad to see Dave is alright.
I can't believe it.
I used to live in Athens (Greece), where nothing really happens. Almost nobody gets hurt with terrorist (as far as I now) and we had one or two casualties at a time. Not this thing. This goes far beyond control.
Just like that killing 37, 1000, 3000 people (9/11), I just can't believe it.
Where are we standing now?
(My wife, who is 5 months pregnant was in the TUBE the time of the bombs, near Earls Court...)
What's the next step?
I don't know, really. I have the impression that there's gonna be another war against terrorists... (who always happen to be Arabs).
Just a pointer: Arabs extend to a lot of countries, most of which are really just friendly (at least to us UNAN). I've been in SYRIA and TYNISIE and they're just great.
The whole idea about this post is one (after a long way):
Do not be afraid! There is a lot of fear going round, and it comes from the news or from CNN (I don't know exactly, and I don't want to be misinterpreted). Of course it's worth living, and of course the people who did this should rot in Hell, in prison, or wherever (I'm avoiding to write that they should die, though). The last thing we need is another war somewhere in the Middle East (where inoccent lifes will be lost, no meatter Iraqi, American, Brittish, Greek or any nation)
NO MORE VIOLENCE!
May God rest the souls of those gone...
Dave ilbert, and what a freaky coincidence that the mayor when 9/11 happened, Rudolph Guilianni was right near liverpool st station when the first bomb went off yesterday. Good to hear of you blissful ignorance, and that you made it fine.
Disgusting and horrific, but to say "bound to happen" wasn't on every Englishman's mind would be a lie. Why Blairs speech had to be so similar to Bush's I don't know, but yes - lets not get into politics. Condolences to anyone effected :( I'm glad you're back, Dave! We were worried, and even moreso was your sister!!
Quote from: Pumaman on Thu 07/07/2005 21:47:34
Something I find rather bizarre about today is that there has actually been less media coverage than when Diana died.
In a sense that's not such a bad thing. I think the authorities (including Blair) and particularly the BBC have dealt with the attacks calmly and without hyperbole. This is appropriate to the nature of this attack.
It is not an iconic strike or one designed to kill on a grand scale. It is an attack designed to spread disruption and fear. The best defence is then for us to continue, as far as is possible, with "business as usual".
My hope now is that this attack isnt allowed to disrupt the G8 talks, and doesn't give our leaders the opportunity to sidestep the question of poverty.
Quote from: Ali on Fri 08/07/2005 17:57:20
In a sense that's not such a bad thing. I think the authorities (including Blair) and particularly the BBC have dealt with the attacks calmly and without hyperbole. This is appropriate to the nature of this attack.
I agree completely, I think the level of coverage has been about right for this incident; it's a shame they went so wildly overboard with Diana.
I'm quite impressed with the way that they got pretty much all of the trains and buses running again this morning, people still went to work, life carried on almost as usual. So long as people continue to do that rather than sitting at home cowering in fear, terrorists will never win.
Amen.
I would like to offer my condolences and prayers for all our friends in the UK.
It was indeed a tragic event that happened, but to see all Londoners getting back to their normal routines and act as nothing had happened was truly amazing. You people are as tough as nails.
I was deeply saddened by this event, and hopefully the people responsible for it will eventually be caught.
At work today everyone was trying to talk me out of my Mittens trip, which includes a side trip to London. I never thought of cancelling, and to tell you the truth, this tragedy only makes me want to travel more often. Life goes on, and you never know, it could be me one day who is caught in the crossfire.
Here I come world.
Quote from: Disco on Sat 09/07/2005 04:56:24
At work today everyone was trying to talk me out of my Mittens trip, which includes a side trip to London. I never thought of cancelling, and to tell you the truth, this tragedy only makes me want to travel more often.
Indeed, that sort of talk is silly. When you break it down scientifically, the chances of being involved in a terrorist attack are very low.
Let's say that in London a terrorist attack happens once every 5 years.
Each attack kills 50 people.
That's 10 people per year.
On the other hand, 220 people die each year in road accidents.
So you're 22 times more likely to be hit by a bus when crossing the road than you are to be killed by terrorists; and yet does anyone say "oooh you mustn't visit city X in case you get hit by a bus"?
Mmmmm... Sorry to bring this back, but where can people see "opression from Occident" in 4 English guys who have a middle-low level of life?
It's a funny old world.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4703777.stm
I guess London now returns to the bad old IRA days of expecting terrorist attacks on a regular basis; it's a pity.
Luckily this time it appears to have not been sucessful. In any case, at least it wasn't on the same scale as the ones on the 7th of July. Apparently things are already getting back to normal in London right now.
Yeah, no problems getting home from work today, although a lot of sirens during the day as I work not far from shepherd's bush.
I think Chris is right about the level of coverage the July 7th bombings recieved. Speaking with a colleague today, it turns out that her brother's best friend's friend was injured in the July 7th attacks. I mention this for two reasons:
1. It helps put in context how un-affected most of us have been from these attacks. This is the closest I have thankfully come to this tragic event and even though over 50 people lost their lives, that's nothing compared to the number of people who work and live in London, and pales in comparisson to those killed on 9-11. About 30 people died in the Kings Cross fire 15 years ago due to litter catching fire, and anyone who travels on London Undergroun knows that you often get up to 50 people in a carraige.
2. This friend of a friend of a friend has been very seriously injured, and I think the nature of the injuries to the survivors has been played down so as to dampen the 'success' of the attack.
Matt
(Who will update his AGS Annual post at the weekend AND post his Brittens photos :))
can't wee keep terorisim in movies and cvideo games?
do we all have to fight just because of a few beleifs?
can't we all just deal with our insecurities and downfalls without ruining it for everyone else?
CAN'T WE GROW UP?
I hope Egyptians are considered post worthy.
Quote from: Las Naranjas on Sat 23/07/2005 23:45:11
I hope Egyptians are considered post worthy.
People dying as seemingly random targets when they are not directly involved to anything is appaling and unfair, whoever they are...and it is very probable that we will hear more of this kind of news.
I just heard about that today. It's a pity about Sharm 'el Sheikh. Makes you wonder what these people hope to gain. That politicians will hold their meetings elsewhere? That less people will go on holiday?
Quote from: Las Naranjas on Sat 23/07/2005 23:45:11
I hope Egyptians are considered post worthy.
I do find it bizarre how, over here at least, the Egypt attacks (which killed more than 80 people) are getting less media coverage than the latest state of the London investigation. I guess "Western" targets like New York, Madrid and London are always likely to feature more strongly since they don't have the history of terrorism that places like Egypt do.
Sympathy of course goes to everyone caught up in these attacks. Most of the victims it seems were not actually Egyptian but were foreign holidaymakers, aimed to disrupt the tourist industry no doubt.
I actually liked how people is getting used to this... In my mind it seems that the terrorist will be tired sooner of later if we don't take care of it. Because terrorism is that, just frustrated people trying to seek attention.
But we must not fall into their game, and threw stones to our own roof. The "blind greed of the capitalist societies" can't be applicated to Bin Laden, one of the richest man in Arabia, by the money heritaged form his parent in the first term, and for the heroin business in second (Yeah, the "romantic Islamic fighter" is the biggest heroin dealer in the World). Where is the "opression of the capitalism" in a guy who has a career in architecture and has studied its postdegree in Hamburg? (Mohammed Atta) Where is the oppression in the son of two Tunisian diplomats who is studying Economics sciences (with a subsidy obtained thru the Spanish International Cooperation Agency) in the best University of Spain? (Serhane Fakhet, the brain of Madrid's 11-m) Where is the oppression in an English guy who lives in an independent three-storey house in Leeds, whose parents have two Mercedes? (Shehzad Tanweers).
Islam has a problem. It's not a problem in the Coran, not a problem of the people... It's a simple problem of concept. We can make fun of how old fashioned is the Pope, and Rome... But it is the central source of authority of Catholicism. Islam have not that, anyone can declare himself Imam, set a place and start talking (words that his parishioners must follow). If one of those Imams is a frustrated, that mosque will become a source of people that will mainly give a shit of what his Imam says, but it will probably work for recruiting 2 or 3 people that are as frustrated as his shepherd. And that's dangerous.
I know what will you say. You'll say "Anti-abortist do kill people too". Ok... let's talk of figures. I think that antiabortists have killed like 5 or 6 people in tha last 10 years. Those people who call themselves followers of the Islam must have killed like 5,000 (3000 in US, 500 in Russia, 200 in Madrid, 50 in London...) I think figures do clearly say that this problem of concept in Islam is serious...
And don't tell me I am a racist, or that I do hate Islam. I think that 99 % of Islamist must be as sick as me of those who are giving bad name to his religion. I think it is a problem they'd like to sollute and I think they'd agree with me.
Muslim AGSers... I'd really like to know what do you think of that, if that problem (the auto-proclaimed Imams) is that serious in your country. Which is the level of fundamentalism... I am really interested in knowing, and if you feel offended, read my post carefully, you'll find that you have nothing to see with the part of the islam I don't like.
Thanks for your attention.
Having a central authority on Islam will be no help. What if there ends up a bad guy in that place? You know what Ben Ladin is aiming for? The same. What would the world be like with a guy like that at the head of Islam?
I think it is better without a "Central Leader". The thing should be that people should have the common sense to question what is told to them. There would be something seriously wrong with anyone who goes "Yeah, sure" when they are told that the slaughter of thousands of innocents (most who never had anything against them) is somehow justified.
The only job of an Imam is to lead the prayer, and read a sermon. It is not the Imam's place to be making speeches about how these people or those people need to be murdered.
I decided to not join this discussion and I will stick to that decision, but I just had to point this little mistake out...
QuoteBen Ladin
His name is actually Bin Laden... ;)
Of course everyone listens to the Pope, Italy enjoys a massive birthrate because no-one there uses contraception because he says not to!
And abstinence and fidelity in catholic countries in Africa is stemming AIDS dramatically!
Even if there was an authority figure, if there's the 1% of dickheads, do you think they'd listen to a leader anyway, especially if it's one as disputed as the pope. After all, we've had decades of The Troubles in Ireland in recent history where thousands have died over popery or not [at least on the level that any conflict is about religion]. I don't think the IRA were listening to the pope, nore the UDA to the Arch Bishop of Canterbury.
The Troubles also brings me to CJ's point...does Egypt really have a greater experience of terrorism than Britain? I think it's just plain ethnocentrism. An Australian cyclist died in Germany and got exponentially greater coverage than 150 dying in a train crash in Pakistan.
[out of topic] The Pope says, actually, "do not have sexual relationships out of marriage" in first term. If there is AIDS in Africa it's because many people do not like to use condoms and when they get infected they must blame to somebody else, the church, of course. But most of the cases of infections are between people who is having sexual relationships out of the marriage freely. Blaming it to the Pope is just an hypocrit excuse by that people.
It is like if an authority says "Do not drive cars, because they re dangerous, and if you drive, do not use the life belt, because it goes against the natural laws" It that stupid? Yeah, people will have the need to use cars. People will drive. Saying they won't is being blind and hypocrit. But if you drive and you have an accident and are seriouslly injuried you can't say "My most important injuries can be blamed to the authorities, because I haven't used the life belt because I am following the law!"
You see the hipocrisy? You haven't followed the law because the authority told you not to drive in first term. If you are too weak for not following the law, give another step and do it propperly, use the security devices and don't blame to somebody else what must be blamed to you.[/out of topic]
But I am just being the advocate of the devil, here... I don't follow the words of the Pope and I think they're not right in this case. But not anything can be blamed to the church in very specific case. :)
And [...], thanks, but I think I'll never sollute my typos. :(
So we conclude that an authority figure in religion makes no difference? :=
We can conclude that a main source of authority is necessary, so we will know the message, and we will know there won't be more than one message.
If there is not a central authority we won't even know which the message is.
But there's two major forms of Islam anyway, Shia and Sunni, and the Pope only accounts for about half the world's christians...
Anyway, isn't the central authority suppsoed to be God?
Wierdly enough, I find the fact that the police have admitted to killing a completely inccocent man slightly reassuring: the fact that they admitted it themselves and not cover it up is a sign that some of the whacky conspiracy theories abou tthe whole thing are even more far-fetched
I am not talking of the different forms of a religion (i.e. Sunnis, Wahabies, catholics, lutherans...) I am saying that the lack of a central authority is bad because it makes the message uncontrolable, and easier to frustrated people to use the word of God for completelly different reasons than the original sense of it.
And it'snot me just who says it. The imam of Madrid is who said it, that any muslim can be autoprocailed Imam, and that he considered it dangerous. That's why I am asking to the muslims AGSers, because it sounds really weird for me and I'd like to know if that is common of it just happens because Spain is too far away from La Meca and there are exceptions (For example, somo of our mosques do not aim to La Meca, but to Gibraltar, because they consider it's the gate to Africa...).
I'd really like to have some answers, for my curiousity. If some can PM me, Babar, Gord... I'll read the PM gladly.
Quote from: Las Naranjas on Sun 24/07/2005 23:15:14
The Troubles also brings me to CJ's point...does Egypt really have a greater experience of terrorism than Britain?
There's a list of terrorist attacks in teh last 15 years in Egypt here:
http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=9411
While London certainly had the IRA to contend with, it wasn't on the same scale as that.
QuoteWierdly enough, I find the fact that the police have admitted to killing a completely inccocent man slightly reassuring:
Well, he can't have been completely innocent -- he ran from the police for a reason. Though his crime probably was just something like shoplifting or being an illegal immigrant, in which case his punishment is rather harsh.
CJ, the man was running away because he was chased by men - not uniformed - with raised guns. He was terrified, and not only innocent, but allegedly also a very peaceful (albeit stressed) man.
I hope this is not something you take lightly in England. The authorities and constabulary sanctioning the murder of a perfectly innocent man is very frightening to me, and is contrary to the idea of a law-governed society.
It smells 1984, frankly.
As far as I've read, he had not the residense paper in order. It's been an awful accident, but if is easy to understand the position of the polices.
The guy was suspicious, two weeks ago they were 60 men killed. The day before some people was exploding bombs in the subway... I am sure that the polices were convinced that the guy was just a button-pushing away to kill another dozen people. That makes a big difference for me, but that's sad, indeed... :-\
Shooting Jean Charles de Menezes in the back of the head after pinning him to the ground is pure police brutality. They may have felt it was necessary, and a split second decision, but they should be looking at scenarios like this one in advance.
If he'd wanted to detonate explosives, why would he have waited until the (plain clothes) police pinned him to the ground? It's nonsensical. He could have pushed this mythical button at any point up to that, when running through crowds.
Why did the police follow him from a house, on and off a bus, before chasing him into a tube station? Why not take him into custody in a more quiet way, in a more quiet place?
I sympathise with the position the police are in, but claiming this type of action is justified is not the answer.
Quote from: Andail on Mon 25/07/2005 20:29:23
CJ, the man was running away because he was chased by men - not uniformed - with raised guns. He was terrified, and not only innocent, but allegedly also a very peaceful (albeit stressed) man.
I hope this is not something you take lightly in England. The authorities and constabulary sanctioning the murder of a perfectly innocent man is very frightening to me, and is contrary to the idea of a law-governed society.
It smells 1984, frankly.
From what I've read about the incident, it looks like an almost unavoidable tragic mistake.
As I understand it, the plain clothes police shouted at him to stop where he was outside the station. For some reason, instead of stopping he decided to run inside the station as fast as possible towards the train.
Seeing this, and the fact that he was wearing a big puffy jacket, the police had to assume that he was a suicide bomber aiming to blow himself up on the train before they could catch him, so they decided to shoot.
You can see why the police made that decision, but as it turns out it was the wrong decision. It's not as cut-and-dry as just saying that the police were wrong; it seems like they were in an almost impossible situation. What if they hadn't shot him, and then he had been wearing a bomb belt and had blown himself up?
QuoteThe authorities and constabulary sanctioning the murder of a perfectly innocent man is very frightening to me, and is contrary to the idea of a law-governed society.
Of course, but at the time of the decision he appeared by his actions to be about to commit mass murder. With the state of alert so high at the moment, if you're going to run from the police it's not a good idea to run towards a subway train after all that's happened lately.
So that's why they usually only give the bobbies truncheons...
Poor bloke was just wearing a jacket because of what passes for "Summer" in the UK.
Also, terrorism has reached one end if we're so terrified we do the killing for it.
I find myself disagreeing and agreeing with all of the previous posts at present.
The reassuring thing is that we can spend hours and even weeks discussing these things, while the police make snap decisions.
A friend of mine made the comment today that white guys with guns running around Stockwell (The site of this recent incident) is porbably not that uncommon!
What happend to Jean Charles de Menezes was a tragic accident and I wouldn't want to be the officers who have to live with their desicion - If I thought I was chasing a suicide bomber and had him pinned to the ground, I would want to make sure for my own benefit, if not other people, that the guy was physically incable of pressing any button.
If I was wrong, I don't know how I would live with myself knowing I had killed an innocent man. Yes he came out of a block of flats linked with last weeks failed bombings, yes he was wearing a heavy jacket on a warm day, yes he ran when told to stop, but the facts are he turned out to be innocent.
The only positive I can think at this stage is that people learn real quick that if a bunch of guys have guns and tell you to stop, whether they are plain clothes police or muggers, DO AS THEY SAY. Best case scenario is you're alive but without your wallet...
an absolute tradegy.
if he had explosives strapped to his chest, then the policemen involved would be crowned heros, and not on suspension pending investigation.
i really think the police should have made themselves much more apparent that they were actually policemen. i read in the paper today that a witness of the shooting said they didn't even shout, 'police!'.
the police don't shoot people 7 times in the head for fun, the evidence and intellegence recieved suggested beyond reasonable doubt that this man was a serious threat to inncocent life, so they acted accordingly.
In the "version" it is reaching here, he jumped two controls (subway tickets controls, not police ones) and was forcing a subway door to enter in the train. Tragic, yeah, but I've probably have made the same than the cops. If it was as the press is saying, it matches perfectly with the pattern of a kamikaze who, having been spotted, tryies to make the massacre as big as possible reaching to a crownded train.
Even if he was in Ã, the floor, stopped but not redouced, I'd have probably have shooted if I have seen any movement capable to make him reaching any button or detonating device. It is a different thing is he was immobilized with shackles or something. Then we are talking of an execution, but I don't think this was the case.
Sorry for saying that I'd have killed an innocent to, but I am trying to be honest, seeing the all the circumstances together...