Love (but not) in the Time of Cholera - Love-life advice needed, sadly.

[Renal Shutdown]

Guys, I've got a kind of problem and I'm at the point where I'm willing to consider your various advices.  It's not something that's going to be easily fixed, and chances are if you lot suggest the typically predictable answers or solutions, I'm going to ignore them.  I'll list the things you needn't bother replying with later, with reasons, but for now, let's get the problem on the table so you can start dissecting it.

I'm in love.  Usually a good and dandy thing, but sadly, not for me.  You see, it's not a nice loving relationship that we all want, whether we believe it or not.  It's the classic cause of poetry, unrequited love.  For those that don't know what it is, and to clarify to those that do, it's where I'm in love with someone, but I'll never be with them.

A while ago, I met someone.  We hit it off immediately, and right now, we're best friends.  We love each other, and we'd hate to lose each other.  We'd have been together if it weren't for one small detail.  I met her when she was already in a relationship, and I helped her plan her wedding.  I was still in the early stages of the love at the time, so I thought 'It's just a crush' or similar teen magazine way of saying it.  But it was more than a crush.  She had feelings for me, too, both pre- and post-wedding.  If it hadn't been for the husband, I'm pretty sure we'd have got together romantically, and most likely married, too.

She's perfect.  It might be my biased view, and that she's only perfect in my eyes, but nevertheless, I adore her.  She's the only person in the entire world that I've actually really cared about.  As far as I'm concerned, she IS my world.  I'd do anything for her, all she has to do is ask.  I honestly don't think I'd be able to cope without her.

The thing is, the only thing I want in the world more than her, is for her to be happy.  At the time of the wedding, I believed marrying the other guy would be the best thing for her.  From what I knew of him, he was a good catch and he loves her, and she loves him.  During the build up to the wedding, she'd have doubts and second thoughts and the usual, and I was the one reassuring her she was making the right decision.  There's a part of me now that wishes I hadn't, but the past is the past, and hindsight's always 20-20.

By the time that she got married, I was fully in love with her, and even then, she loved me, and was having second thoughts.  Again, I told her marrying him was the best course of action, even on the morning of the wedding.  So, yea, as you can see, this is partly a problem caused by my lack of forethought.

Wedding day comes, and whilst I'm glad that she's having the best day of her life, I'm also dying a little inside.  I can pretty much pinpoint the moment my heart broke, for the first time.  But, she's my best friend, and I tell myself that I'll get over it soon enough.

Fast-forward a couple of months, and I'm now living 4 doors away from her, seeing her everyday, and I find out she's still got feelings for me.  But, we both take promises very seriously, and she's made a vow to the husband.  I don't want her to break a vow, and the last thing I want is to jeopardise her marriage.  She might've been considering a different path, but again I talked her out of making a hasty decision.  Again, hindsight.

And now, six or seven months later, and I'm still living near her.  She's still married.  Though, nothing's been mentioned feeling-wise for what seems like forever.  She doesn't want to lose me as a friend, as I really am her best friend, and she really does love me, and dreads the thought of losing me.  Of this, I'm certain, but as for possible romantic interest? I only know my side of the situation.

My side is that my heart's been breaking over and over since the day of the wedding, getting worse and worse, day by day.  I'm happy whenever I see her, and I'm a friend of her husband, but if I see them as a couple, it's agony.  Since time's moved on, I see them more as a pair than I used to see her alone.  It's getting harder and harder to deal with.

I can't begin to explain just how much I love her, and I'm still completely IN love with her.  She's all I think about, day in and day out, 24/7.  If I ever lost her, even as a friend, I honestly don't think I'd be able to go on.  I'm sure most of you won't understand, but to the few that do, I hope you're actually with the person you feel this way about.

Whilst I love her, everytime I see them to together, it's like the worst pain you could imagine, and I see them a lot.  It's eating away at me, and I'm on the verge of a nervous breakdown.  Chances are, I'm either going to lose it mentally, or I'm going to do something stupid.

Due to money issues, and various other factors, she's recently suggested that instead of us (the three of us) renting two small houses, we could move into one much larger house.  That set off alarm bells in my head and my heart, and I've been a mess since (about a week ago).  I don't think I could do it.

I can accept that she'll never leave him, and I would never ask her to.  In fact, if she suggested it, I'd likely end up talking her out of it.  I can accept the fact that I'm going to die alone, as there's no one I've met before or after her that has come anywhere near in comparison.  I'm not going to get over her, I know that for sure.  I've even dealt with the daily pain, until recently.  It's got harder and harder, but I've managed it, and I've hidden how much it hurts me from her.  But living under the same roof as the cause of the pain is just too much to bear.

She knows that I'm having some kind of mental thing going on, preventing me from agreeing to the move instantly, but she'll want a definite yes or no on the situation pretty quickly.  She thinks it's that I'm freaking out about living with other people in general, and she knows I'm having trouble with coping in general, so she's suggested that I see the doctor about it.  Possibly for anti-depressants or anti-anxiety pills, or something like that.  Whilst they might take the edge off things, they're not going to do a damn thing about the root of the problem, so I'm wary of the idea.

And so on to the problem.  What the hell do I do now?  Where do I go from here?  I'm at a loss, and sleep deprevation's not aiding my thought process one bit.  I'm getting to the point where reality is going sort of wonky, and I'm quite frankly sick of crying myself to sleep.



Things that aren't options:

Running away.
I've thought about this, a lot, and I can't live without her.  There's no point running away, as it would both hurt her and leave me so empty inside I might as well be dead.

Suicide.
She'd never forgive me if I tried it, and I'm terrified that not only might I fail, but also that there's afterlife.

Telling her.
Regardless of her feelings towards me, it'd stress her out if she knew how I felt, and she has enough things to worry about, without me adding to the list.  If she doesn't feel the same, she'd hate me for trying to come between the marriage*.  If she did feel the same, she made a vow that she'll keep, so it'll mean we're both trapped.
*(I promised her I'd never do anything to come between them, and telling her would in effect break that promise).

Getting over her.
This isn't going to happen, I'm sorry.  I love her more now than I ever did, and there's genuinely no one in the world that could compare to her.  You might think that I'm being naive, but I can only tell you that I will only love her, and hope you can fathom that.

Sabotaging their relationship.
Whether it be dropping hints, out-right lying, or even killing the husband, it's not going to happen.  Breaks the 'don't come between us' promise mentioned above.

Binge Drinking/substance abuse.
I'm already an alcholic, and she's pretty much saved me from myself once.  I'm not going to screw that up, she'd hate me.  I'll admit, in the last week or two, I've had more alcohol than the rest of the year combined, but I've not been drunk.  It's more to help me try to get some sleep.

Any daft ideas.
Like time-travelling back, and meeting her first.  If you going to suggest something like this, then make sure you have a working time-machine, and not just a toaster, a couple of lightbulbs and some foil.  If it works, fine.  If not, please don't bother.



I really am starting to lose the plot, guys.  So if you've got any suggestions, theories, whatever, I'd love to hear them.  If you've any ideas on or experiences with broken hearts, unrequited love and anti-depressants, then please share them.  I'm literally at breaking point, here.



(Apologies for the length of the post, I tried to keep to the basics as much as possible, but I could've written a thousand times that on just how much I adore her, and the same again on how much it hurts).

[LGM]

I'm in a similar situation, and frankly, I don't really have a solution to your problem.

I feel for you, man. And I understand more than most here, I'm sure.

My only advice... Is to not blame yourself, or feel like she's going to hate you for feeling how you feel. You are entitled to your own emotion, and if she loves you as much as you say, then she will understand. Being honest with her is not you coming between their marriage. You might feel selfish telling her, but in the end, it's better she knows.

Telling her doesn't suggest you want her to do something, you are just looking for understanding. And in this kind of situation, a little understanding goes a long way.

Good luck, friend. I really don't know what to tell you beyond that. It's hard to stay optimistic in times like this, but it isn't the end. I know the powerful feelings you are having at this time, and they are hard to ignore, or to eliminate. Sure, you will always love her. I get that. But sometimes love just isn't enough to make things work.

The important thing is to not let this destroy you. You cannot place so much of yourself into another person. You have to realize you are your own person, and come to terms with that. At the end of the day, you are still you. No matter how much you owe to her for being so.. well, here you are. And tomorrow is a new day.

Have faith.

[Anian]

...I'm not claiming to help, but this just got me interested...so in advance I apologize:

You said she had similar feelings, but later you told us you thought you should tell her about your feelings. Don't know how much you talk about that stuff with her. Are you sure she has those kind of feelings for you and that you're not deep in the "friend Zone"? Cause if she doesn't have (didnt have) those kind of feelings then you should keep away, and, let's face it, you might've got the wrong impression/signals.

Whatever you do, it's gonna be awkward, so you might as well come to terms with that. If you're that good of friends then it might help to talk it out with her or maybe even both of them, or go see a psychiatrist (and I'm not kidding, that really might help). You seem like a good guy (I guess) but you probably dug yourself a deep hole in this situation, you should've stepped off before it got too far, but what's done is done.
Why do you live so close (and wanna get closer) anyway? That can't be healthy and is only making things worse.


And you forgot one daft idea btw: threesome...not the "good" threesome but hey, still. Sorry, had to get that out my system, besides, you never know.

[Dualnames]

Ah, I live the same thing (though we're not into the marriage thing yet), Thoukididis (an ancient greek) once said what fits all answers you'll get from people here:

"It's easy to give advices to others but not yourself"

So even though I might have an idea of what you should do, i have no clue for my case.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

You've essentially written yourself into a Catch-22 situation where you personally are not willing to commit to any reasonable course of action, so my question is this:  what sort of advice could you hope for when you are completely unwilling to:

A) Give her up and move on.

B) Tell her how things are and risk everything.

or
C) Continue on with the way things are.


You've really hedged yourself into a no-win scenario where there isn't a fucking ounce of useful advice anyone can give you because you're just being too damn stubborn to begin with.  You know me so you know I don't dance about with what I have to say, and I know you so I know you'll take what I'm saying for what it is:

Come up with some more realistic options.

[Dualnames]

In addition, if you don;t make a move, you 'd rather regret not making it, or taking a risk and losing it?

How difficult is it to tell her how happy you're she's happy? How difficult is to pretend most of the days?

Pretend then, or just be real about it.
You're in a crossroad. You have two choices pick a road, or stay there.

Whilst I love her, everytime I see them to together, it's like the worst pain you could imagine, and I see them a lot.  It's eating away at me, and I'm on the verge of a nervous breakdown.  Chances are, I'm either going to lose it mentally, or I'm going to do something stupid.

From my small and probably not worth, experience, I say you give it a try, if you think she's the one, and you don't fight for her, you'll blaim yourself. I know i do.

[Obi]

I say risk everything. YOu must take a risk or not live at all.

[monkey0506]

Renal I understand completely where you're coming from on this. I met the love of my life 4 years ago, and I'm not one for "love at first sight" (nor am I saying that I fell for her immediately) but I am saying that from the first time I ever laid eyes on her I wanted to meet her, to get to know her, to find out what she likes, what she hates, what she loves, what she lives for...everything there could possibly be to know about her. I can't explain it rationally because it's not a rational state of mind to be in...

Over the years she has grown to mean more to me than I ever knew one person could possibly mean to another. I've heard the phrase coined before, "unconditional love" and something about it always bothered me. One, isn't "love" supposed to be unconditional? And two...I'd never felt that way about anyone.

She quickly became my best friend in the entire world, even replacing friends that I've had for over a decade. It's not just the way I feel about her romantically. It's everything she thinks, feels, says, and does...when I talk to her...she is the only person in the world who really, truly "gets me" the way that she does. Even when she doesn't understand...even when nobody understands...she always gets me.

And I regret to inform you that in spite of it all...my feelings for her are not returned. She has admitted to me on several occasions that I too am her best friend...but nothing more than friends.

It killed me inside for a long time...I didn't know how to cope...I didn't know how to go on. I tried all the sensible things like trying to get over her, trying to pretend that she didn't exist, going out of my way to avoid her...y'know...all that mentally healthy stuff that you're supposed to do in these situations. Of course I also did the most sensible and reasonable thing of all which is that after I found out, by her own admission, that she loved her then, and current, boyfriend, I for the first time in my life smoked marijuana.

Putting that in context, she told me before that she never loved anyone other than her family. So when she told me that she loved him...it pushed me over the edge. So, after managing to get myself fired from my job, I then for several hours smoked with every employee who took a break (the manager included). Apparently a depressant drug is exactly the type you're supposed to take when you're depressed....

Actually, for years people have told me that my personality and general demeanor are very much like that of someone who is high on marijuana, so those two factors combined with the fact that I'd never smoked before all gave the glorious effect of me feeling exactly the same with a sore throat. I never smoked again.

It was approximately two months later (having no contact with her at all) that I stopped myself and realized that if I really loved her...then what the hell was I doing getting depressed that she didn't love me? Trying to change her mind about me? Lying to myself and trying to make myself believe that she does feel the same way about me?

If I really loved her...shouldn't she come first?

It was at that point...that for the very first time in my life...I truly began to care more about another human being than myself. I've loved her for a long time...but the feeling I got when I decided to really put her first...was beyond compare. It wasn't an easy decision. And it's one that I still have to make on a day-to-day basis. There are days when I let myself come first...mainly out of my own depression.

My depression isn't caused by her...it was there before I ever met her. But believe me when I say that I completely, truly, and fully understand the heart-wrenching, unspeakably, unbearably awful pain...for which there is no comparison...and, it seems, no end...to love someone so completely, knowing that it will never be.

I swore to her years ago that if we were never together that I would have her as my best man...and I wanted to be her maid of honor. It might sound flat retarded. But as she put it to her boyfriend, "You just don't get it...:"

Don't expect anyone who hasn't felt this way about someone to have the slightest clue what you mean Renal. It's not that they won't try...because some of them will give it their best shot. But try to imagine telling someone what chocolate tastes like. Imagine describing to a blind person what a rainbow looks like. Imagine, if you will, trying to describe to a 2-dimensional stick figure about a third dimension.

I'm suddenly reminded of the tale of Krikket from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy in which (Life, the Universe, and Everything, Chapter 10):

Spoiler

the people from the planet Krikket are oblivious to the existence of space because their sky is completely clouded by a dust which surrounds their planet. Slartibartfast states, "Imagine, never even thinking, 'We are alone,' simply because it has never occurred to you to think that there's any other way to be." It had never occurred to the people of Krikket that they may or may not be alone in space because they had no comprehension of space. Their view of life was constricted completely to the things which took place on the ground. When the people of Krikket hear the spaceship falling from the sky, "...none of them knew what to do with it. They were glancing around themselves in consternation, left, right, forward, backward, and even at the ground. It never occurred to them to look upward."

[close]

So, just as their comprehension of things was lacking, because of their own experience...so is the comprehension of those who have not encountered this..."true"...this...."unconditional" love that you and I seem to both have for these amazing women Renal.

I do regret to inform you that I don't have any advice...except this: DO NOT LIE TO HER, OR TO YOURSELF. If she asks you...you can avoid answering...or tell her the truth. But do not lie. And the second bit is the most important. Lying to yourself will only cause your problems to become that much exponentially worse. If you don't think you could handle moving in with her without jeopardizing your friendship...tell her no.

Tell her that you "just don't think it would be a good idea." Tell her anything...but tell her the truth.

Anyway, I seem to be making your post into a single sentence by comparison, I've rather rambled on here...I hope that knowing someone else has had a similar (albeit completely different ) experience will help strengthen you in some small way. Best of luck to you all...

[Layabout]

Have sex with someone else.... repeatedly. And then go find another person. Have sex with them. go find 8 people more. Hopefully you will then realise she is not the only female person on the planet and you had been blind for a while. Blinded by the illness that is love.

[InCreator]

Blinded by the illness that is love.

I don't know if it helps or if my opinion can be taken seriously as I'm anything but unbiased right now.

I had a girlfriend. For 8 years, on and off. We are... were very different in nature, as she was very socializing and what you would call modern woman, she seeked success always, had high ambitions, spent more time going out and her career. I'm simpler, all I want is a loving wife and peaceful family.

That's why we broke up and made up constantly over last 4 years. Differences tore us apart, love brought back together. We had lots of nasty fights and evil words, but in our cores, we always loved each other and whatever flings and other friends she had, all her other tries at relationship ended with her crying and coming back to me, because if there's fate, we were meant to be together and with no one else. Nothing can replace true love. Same for me.

Few days ago, we met again. Over 3-4 months. After some talking, and discussing how our lives had progressed while we were apart, etc. Once again, we came to the point that world is pointless unless we are with each other. And we ended up in each others hands. Again, promises were made to try again, change ourselves and try to accept our differences as much as possible. We made some plans to meet again, take a trip to country and try our best to be together, since neither of us hasn't found anyone who could even come near to the way *we* feel about each other. We were supposed to meet yesterday after work, both waiting for it, sending cute "goodnight" text messages, etc.

But night before yesterday... she was killed. In her home, by unknown intruder. Someone came and stabbed her. Someone she knew.
She fought for her life, police said, as there was blood in many rooms of her apartment.

She was all I cared about in this world.

Want advice about love?
Nothing matters. Grab your love, hold it with ten fingers and never let it go. That's what I feel. What I regret not doing earlier. That's all I can think of and blame myself for.

...

[Layabout]

Holy Crap. Now I feel like a dick.

...

I'm sorry. So sorry. I hope you find a way to overcome this situation. It must be hard for you right now.

[Renal Shutdown]

It's nice in a bad way to see that LGM and Monkey understand what I'm going thru, I'm so sorry that you're in similar situations, but I'm also kind of glad that I'm not the only one.  I realise that's a bit of a selfish sentiment, and for that I apologise.  I guess I needed reassurance it wasn't just me.

A) Give her up and move on.
B) Tell her how things are and risk everything.
C) Continue on with the way things are.

Progz, you're right, I'm in put myself in this no-win/catch-22 situation, and it's not something I'm too pleased about.  However, option A isn't something I'm not willing to try, it's something I've been trying to do, and failing hopelessly at.  I've tried getting over her, and I physically can't.

Telling her isn't completely ruled out, as I'm sure I'm going to have to tell her something at some point, but there's factors that I don't really want to explain, as they're personal to her.  In  short, she's under a lot of stress, she's been thru a lot in her life, and she always puts other people's needs before her own.  If I just told her everything, she'd suffer because of it, and the last thing I want to do is hurt her.

She knew how much I loved her, when it was discussed the last time, about six months ago (not just a 'friend zone' thing, there were no wrong impressions).  This is also how I know she had feelings for me.  But, it was sort of pseudo-agreed that we'd try to leave those feelings alone, for the sake of her marriage.  She didn't know at the time how much it hurt me, though.  Maybe if I'd told her back then, things would be different now.  I was still hoping and assuming I'd be able to get over her back then.

Option C is what I AM doing, I just need help with finding a way to make it easier.  Regardless of the unrequited love issue, I'm still her best friend, and she needs me (See above; stress).  If we ever parted as friends, I'm honestly not sure how she'd manage.  She's far stronger than I am, but she's got so many more things to deal with.

It's partly a problem of me coming up with new, realistic options.  It's weighing so heavily on my mind, that I'm starting to thinking it's impairing my judgement, hence the need to ask advice.



It's probably just cowardice on my part, but several of you have suggested 'just risking it', or words to that effect.  I can't begin to tell you how much I want to do that, but is it too much of a risk?  What happens if I tell her, and lose her as a friend?  I honestly think that would push me over the edge.  Despite the pain I'm in, she still makes me happy on the occassions I see just her.

talk it out with her or maybe even both of them
threesome...not the "good" threesome

This isn't something that's even on the back-burner.  He's quite possessive, insecure, jealous, etc.  I'm pretty much the only male friend she has now, as she ditched the others to appease him (as she puts his feelings before her own).  He's actually under the assumption that I'm gay, and with that, he's accepted me as her friend.  He's also a bit of a homophobe, which makes this seem like it's turning into the plot of a sitcom.

Layabout, I wish I could be as nonchalant about love as you, but it's just not in my nature.  I'd assume you've never met someone who has this kind of effect on you, and I'm not sure whether to hope you do or not.  If you did, and it worked out, then you'd be happy, but if you did and it went south?  I wouldn't wish this feeling on anyone.



Finally, InCreator.  I wish I had the words, but I don't even know where to start.  I'm so sorry you had to go thru that, and all I can do is wish you the best.

[Peder 🚀]

Ive been in kind of similar way, I was with my ex for 4 years, and because of some stupid reason I was "forced" to go back to Norway. (She is from Wales and I moved there and lived there for about 1,5 year before I had to go back).
She then ended up dumping me (for unknown reasons) then suddently wanted me back, and then ended up not coming online no more. Ive been told she is now moving on and trying to get over me..

Its hurt alot! Ive allways loved her, and I allways will.
She really was the one I wanted to be with forever, and the fact I had to go back to Norway is just making me worse.
I mean, if I had been in Wales now, we would most probably still of been together.

My story has alot of things behind it, and I not gonna be explaining it.
Ive been trying myself to get over her for the last 6 months, without much luck.
Ive changed alot in my life since then only the last month, and I have been feeling better for a while.
Met someone else that I am still talking to, though nothing serious. A lovely girl..
Only problem is, I keep thinking about my ex constantly. dreaming about her etc.

I dont really WANT to move on, and my ex not even wanting to be my friend just hurts me more and makes it harder to move on. I care alot about her, and if I cant be with her I still only want her all the best!

Even how much she has hurt me I cant hate her.

I can imagine your situation is hard Renal, and I got no other suggestions of what to do than whats been said.
Though I know if I had a time machine Id go back and do the one thing that changed everything differently.

I not sure if I ever will get over her, but then again I not sure if Id be able to go back with her neither...
I regret not taking her back though when she wanted me back. but I was still very upset about what she had done, and when I realized how much I did want her back it was to late....

What hurts me the most now is that she dont talk to me at all, she ignores me in whatever way I try to contact her.
And to me it feels like she must still have feelings for me to since she is ignoring me!

I am still trying to get over her anyway, I really like this girl I am talking to now and would love to get to know her better, though I dont really think I will manage to go any further than friends. Cause it seems whenever I meet someone else I just end up only thinking about my ex, and it makes it feel all wrong..


I wish you good luck in whatever choices you take, and hope that in some way or another things at least gets better!
Love can be dangerous!

[Nacho]

My deepest and sinceres condolences, InC.

I am in a weird loving situation as well now, but I don' t really want to post about it...

[Layabout]

To be honest, you really have to force yourself away from her. This does mean moving, deleting her number and pretty much getting rid of any contact with her. If, as you said, there is no way she will back down on her promise to her husband (ie, marriage), then you have no other option. You must end this cherade, it will only cause more hurt for the both of you in the long run.

Why do you love her? Seriously, think about it. It's very possible the reason you desire her so much is because you can't have her.

Has she 'cheated' on her bloke with you? If so, this is a promise breaker really towards her bloke. Also, could YOU trust someone to be faithful if they have cheated before? Every time I've gotten involved with a girl who is attached, it ends badly and I have alot of mistrust of them, things happen, you know. Once a cheater, always a cheater. It's the thrill of it all.

Have you got a crystal ball? It seems like you do since you are acting totally irrational (oh wait, love), thinking that this is the only girl out of 3.35billion that you could love. You can't see the future. You don't know what will happen if somehow you could be in a relationship with her.  Would you be happy, miserable, married? Who knows.

So leave. You can't have what you want in your current situation and the vicinity of your abodes are causing you heartache. Take what pride you have left, suck it up and find a new area to live in. Get a new phone number, get a new email, get and new address no where near where she is, and get outta there. Take some time to let those feelings subside. You can not and will not be able to do that if you are anywhere near her. You also need to tell her why you are leaving and why you have to leave. It is unfair on yourself to stay there. All these chemicals in your body go crazy when you are near her. You need to get away. Give it six months, sex it up with some other ladies (seriously, you need to sort your body chemistry out with some sex0rz) and then go meet her in a public house for a fine beverage, see how you do.

I would bet you a thousand pounds (if I had a thousand pounds and weren't a poor student) that you would be a much happier person and not feel crazy in love with her anymore. I know is sounds like a nonchalant attitude, but your body chemistry and psychological well-being is way out of kilter due to this girl and you need to get it sorted out!

And let's just say I have been in a situation where I was in love with someone (to the max) but due to reasons beyond my control I could not be with her.

[monkey0506]

Renal, I honestly don't think trying to force yourself to move on is a good idea. With regard to the girl that I posted about above, she still does mean more to me than anything else in this world...but I accepted more than a year ago that she's with who she's with...and that's not me. As I said, I still have to deal with that on a day-to-day basis. But not a day has gone past in the last two or three years at least that I haven't thought about her. Not a single day.

However, all that aside, over time it has become easier. I know that sounds completely cliche...but it's the truth. I think the best thing for you to do at this point is to continue on, be there for her, be her friend, and give it time. Don't do anything to sabotage her marriage. Even if that means you have to sabotage the way you feel about her. If she means that much to you...if she really does...she has to come first.

I actually have a secondary similar situation with another girl. I don't love her. Let me stress that point right now. But I do really, really, really like her. The problems are as follows: she's underage, she's been a good friend of mine for over ten years, and she's my best (guy) friend's sister...I'm sure some of you are going to remember me posting about this...I have a habit of wanting to let everyone here know every last emotion I'm going through...however I have tried to calm down a bit in that respect, and there's been some very interested events that I have made a point to not post about here...:

As for my friend's sister, the situation here seems similar in that if I tell her how I feel about her...if I tell her that I like her...and she doesn't feel anything similar for me...and then for example...if she were to tell her mom...things would get very out of hand, very quickly. It's always an awkward situation to have feelings for a friend...not knowing if they feel the same way...my situation with her just about seems to be the epitome of that though...

Anyway, when you said, Renal, that you would never wish it on someone to feel this way about someone else and not have everything work out with the perfect fairy tale ending...it reminded me of Shakespeare, "'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all." to which I have been quoted (by myself of course) as having said, "Shakespeare was an idiot."

I think, "to have loved and lost" doesn't necessarily have to mean that the person has died. Simply that you lost any opportunity you may have had to gain that requited love.

Years later, in reflection, I retracted my statement about Shakespeare...I revised it somewhat. For if you truly love someone...as deeply and fully as you seem to love this woman Renal...although you may never have the opportunity to have that love returned, in the least not to its fullest extent, nothing can ever take that from you. Although it may hurt like hell...there may even be times at which it seems it would be easier if you could just drop dead where you stand...nothing...not her marriage, not any promise, not any amount of time or pain or suffering, not even the bittersweet sting of death itself can take that love away from you.

Most people, on reading the above quote will take it at face value and leave it at that. Which is why I said that Shakespeare was an idiot. Reflecting upon it however, there is the possibility that Shakespeare presented it as a challenge to his audiences...a challenge to understand the meaning of "love" for all that it's worth. A challenge to see the flaw in the claim. So perhaps...maybe...just maybe Shakespeare understood love better than the majority of his audiences through the ages ever will, and knowing this himself, he challenged them to think, and feel, and understand this awesome, incredible feeling for themselves.

Then again, he may have just been an idiot. He may just have been writing about something which he himself did not understand...but that in itself may have yet been another challenge....

[Stee]

You've essentially written yourself into a Catch-22 situation where you personally are not willing to commit to any reasonable course of action, so my question is this:  what sort of advice could you hope for when you are completely unwilling to:

A) Give her up and move on.

B) Tell her how things are and risk everything.

or
C) Continue on with the way things are.


You've really hedged yourself into a no-win scenario where there isn't a fucking ounce of useful advice anyone can give you because you're just being too damn stubborn to begin with.  You know me so you know I don't dance about with what I have to say, and I know you so I know you'll take what I'm saying for what it is:

Come up with some more realistic options.

He has a point.


A) Be honest with yourself is it really going to happen? If not I'd say walk away.
B) If your dead certain that you both love each other as much as you claim, then take option B. Sure the husband might get hurt but unfortunately you're going to have to choose your feelings or your morals. Its gone so far now, you can't pick both.

C) This is not a viable option, do you really want to live like this the rest of your life.

D) I suggest you talk about this to her next time you see her on her own. The worst thats going to happen is that you know where you stand and you know that option A is the path to take. Sure it'll hurt, but believe me it gets easier. It takes balls to do this so if you don't have any grow some.

Unfortunately I don't have a time machine. Do you know how much those Deloreans cost?

Good Luck buddy,

Stee

[jetxl]

...
She's perfect.  It might be my biased view, and that she's only perfect in my eyes, but nevertheless, I adore her.  She's the only person in the entire world that I've actually really cared about.  As far as I'm concerned, she IS my world.  I'd do anything for her, all she has to do is ask.  I honestly don't think I'd be able to cope without her.
...

That's the problem in a nutshell. You're clingy and put her on some golden pedastal ready for worship.
And what's with the selfless chivalrous knight bullshit -"I can't kill myself because it might hurt her feelings. Whine, whine."
So if you're the chivalrous knight then she's the virtuous muse. This might sound like a very romantic book, films, etc. but this is real life and it got you nothing but buckets of hurt.
(There's also some other stuff like not being a man and put a move on her when you had the chance, but you missed that boat, enjoy the island.)

The solution? Be a dick. Work on your game (real life game, not ags). Chase tail. There are plenty of other fish in the sea.
I know what you'll say; "But Jet, I can't/won't change, it's too late for this grumpy, scary, drunken geek. Besides, this fucked up voyeurism relationship with a woman already occupied is the only thing I've got going for myself," (or something in those lines). To which I reply; "You tried it your way and now you're about to crack up. You're asking advise of anonymous game nerds! That's a huge and clear sign of -HELP ME-. So grab the life line and talk to other women. You don't have to marry/sleep/date them. You don't even have to ask their number or talk to them longer than 5 minutes. Just ask them something random they can relate to like: popcorn or pizza, is there such a thing as too much colone/perfume, what's the deal with japanese men wearing bra's all of a sudden. Sure, you might get rejected 300 times and even if you're not it will take time (years?) to build up such a comfortable relationship as you have with that girl, but you will never feel as shit as you do now.


Side note:
The other day I got rejected by a girl i'm working with. I was tapping my finger nervously, trying to think up something witty, while she seemed to read a text book like it was the last page of an Agatha Christine novel (note that this was at work during a break, and how bored do you have to be if you bring a text book to your part time job). I'd say something, and she say something back without really looking up and then it was back to uncomfortable silence. This is how girls reject guys. No slap in the face or knee in the groin, no restraining order or big scene infront of your friends and family, but just a cold shoulder, that's it.
I got up at one point, nicely said goodbye and walked away. I felt crap because I got rejected, but wasn't mad at her since she made her feelings clear, while letting me down gently. So I'm walking through the halls when I see this other bratty girl who thinks she's the second comming of christ. I see right through her and even thogh I don't wan't anything to do with her I still flirt with her. And what do you know, she get's one of my jokes so I'm feeling good about myself again.
So if you get rejected, get back into the sadle.


PS: this might not be on topic but I think I've might have written this more for myself for future references when my heart takes a punch.

[MoodyBlues]

It's not something that's going to be easily fixed, and chances are if you lot suggest the typically predictable answers or solutions, I'm going to ignore them.  

I'm reading "typically predictable answers" as "common sense advice," so maybe you'll ignore what I have to say.  Oh well, I'll give this a shot.  You might as well get a lady's perspective.

Bear in mind that I don't think I've felt as strongly about the opposite sex as you, so I may come off as a bit cold.

I'm of the camp that says you need to look elsewhere for love.  No, you don't have to sleep around; I don't think that will help.  And I don't expect you to lose your feelings for her overnight; it's clear they're very strong.  However, you've invested too much of yourself in one person.  You keep justifying it by calling it love, but is that what it really is?  Philosophers often say that real love is not just a nice feeling; it is centered in willing the best for someone else.  You say you'd do anything for her, but really, what have you done for her lately besides pine?

And I find it suspect that you're suggesting she'll only stay with her husband because of her vows and that he's a possessive, jealous jerk.  That could all be true, but I'm getting some jealous vibes from YOU.  Don't assume she can't make her own decisions; she married HIM, not you.  Could it be that she actually, um, LOVES him?  Even if she may have some feelings for you, she is more committed to someone else.  You need to come to terms with that and drop your romanticized view of the situation; she's not a distressed maiden in the clutches of a cruel husband in need of saving.  I'm probably being a bit harsh on you, but I think you could benefit from reevaluating your perceptions.

So yeah.  At least take a break from her for a while.  You don't have to stop being her friend altogether (though that might be for the best), but you shouldn't sell yourself short and think, "This is as good as it'll get for me."  You sound like a decent person, and you deserve to be in a better place than you are right now.

[Renal Shutdown]

Layabout, I can completely see the point of view you're promoting, and in any other situation, I'd likely suggest the same thing to another person.  Until her, I'd say that love was easily overcome with some time, a little patience, and if the situation arose, some lube.  But, you're also under the assumption that I'm a typical example of the human psyche.

I'm not psychic, I can't predict the future, and I've no crystal ball.  I know there's other women out there, and I'm sure if I met some of them, a small percentage might've been viable options at one point.  But, they won't be her.  I'll compare them to her, and they'll come up lacking.  I'm pushing 30, and she's not the only person in the world I've ever met.  She did have SUCH an impact on me, that EVERYONE in the world that I've ever met, before or after her, are entirely meaningless to me.  I'd choose her over even my own parents, without any hesitation whatsoever.  I actually love my parents, and I'd be hard pressed to find a mum and dad who were better.

It's very possible the reason you desire her so much is because you can't have her.

This comment throws me a little.  If it's in line with your general theme, then it's false.  The opportunity kind of arose, and I didn't take it, as it was agreed that we'd not do anything that she regretted.  If it's long-term not having, then again, I reassured her that the marriage was the best thing for her.  You can't imagine how my actions in that respect hurt me in retrospect.

'Cheated' on him?  That could be interpreted differently, dependent on situation, be it 'affair' or 'having second thoughts'.  Though, if I was the one with her, and she 'cheated' on me by any definition, I can honestly say now that I would completely forgive her, and assume it was because of something I'd done wrong.  Regardless of situation, I'd trust her implicitly.

Take what pride you have left..

Which would be what, exactly?  I've been heading downhill for years, spirally faster and faster out of control, and the majority of the people on here have had no knowledge of that.  It's not something I'd really like to go into detail with at this time, but without her, my life is pretty much pointless.  I'm not an Emo, or a similar attention seeking angst-ridden teen stereotype, so I don't really discuss it, but chances are, without her, I'd have either killed myself, or tried to lobotomise myself.  (I'd prefer it that was the last that was said on that particular issue for now, as it's something that would require a thread of it's own - which won't happen anytime soon, don't worry).

You suggest getting away, and cutting contact.  I've thought about that a lot.  I'm not wearing blinkers, and I can see why is a valid suggestion in the majority of situations, but for me, personally, it's just not an option.

If either of us had a thousand pounds, I'd take that bet.  I'd likely not be around to cash in, though.  ..Maybe you could pay her.



Monkey, I can see where you're going with the Shakespeare thing, despite how much it hurts, I don't think I prefer life without her.  It's agony, but it's better than it was before I met her.  Life was empty in comparison.  Yet, at the same time 'Ignorance is bliss' is just as true a statement as Bill's efforts.  I really can't say if I'd prefer life now or before, as my view's biased.  I just hope that everyone else gets to skip the 'lost' bit.



Jet, I know my words might not have been the best choice.  She's probably not 'perfect' to anyone else, but to me, she is.  It's not so much putting her on a pedestal, it's just the best way I could describe her.  She has her faults, but I love her regardless of them.  Hell, some of them are endearing to me.

You're right, I did miss the boat (I pretty much sank it), and it's one of the very rare things I think I actually regret.  I know I'm not a knight in shining armor, far from it, but suddenly changing who I am isn't something that's easy.  I've been a dick in the past, and it took me a long time to change (I'd like to think for the better) and it's not something I really want to be again.  Despite the situation, I feel happier with myself as a person now, than I used to.

I've met other girls, since her.  I'd consider some of them to even be friends (and I'm not really into classing simple acquantainces as friends).  So it's not like I've met her, and then completely shut down to the rest of the world.  If anything, I've probably socialised more since  falling for her than I've done in years.  Which makes me so certain that 'getting over her' is so unlikely.

I'm reading "typically predictable answers" as "common sense advice," so maybe you'll ignore what I have to say.

I'm thinking 'typically predictable answers' as more the generic answers people who've not experienced something similar would give.  The type you'd find in an agony aunt column, that have likely been re-used for various situations.  It's kind of common sense, yes, but since when was love a logical, by-the-book thing?

You say philospher's say love is centered around willing the best for a person.  I've said that the only thing I want more than her, is for her to be happy, so isn't that love?  I can't find a better definition of the feeling.  Philosophy isn't so reliable a source of anything to me, though, as so many of the philosophies contradict each other, and they're all just theories in the end.  But, if it's not love, what is it?

The vows issue.  I'm not going into details, but something happened in the past, that means she takes promises VERY seriously, and a vow is a promise.  Due to her upbringing (and other factors), she has a sort of 'ambition' (can't think of a better word) to be a good wife (and eventually a good mother).  If she was my wife, I wouldn't be able to fault her.  She goes out of her way to make sure he's content, and it pains me that he takes her for granted at times.

It's true, I'm kind of jealous of him.  Who wouldn't be in this situation?  I've done a surprisingly effective job of hiding it, though, as she's completely unaware how much it hurts at times.  It's getting harder and harder as time moves on, and the whole possible moving situation advanced it to the stage where I felt I needed outside help.

I know she can make her own decisions, and yes, she married HIM, but I did reassure her when she was having doubts before the wedding (forethought has never been my forté*).  Yet, whilst he's not a cruel husband and she's not a damsel in distress, the marriage isn't necessarily perfect.  I don't really want to criticise him in anyway, as I don't feel it's my place to do so.  Maybe I'm holding out some misguided, subconcious hope that it'll fail, and I'll get a one day get a chance, but conciously, I doubt such a thing will happen.

You say you'd do anything for her, but really, what have you done for her lately besides pine?

It's not exactly like I can do the standard romantic gestures, like flowers and chocolates, but I do a lot more for her than just pining.  I'm not going to say 'I did this' or 'I bought that' as no matter what I did for her, it never feels like enough, but I actually do quite a lot for her (if I'm honest and/or selfish, perhaps more than the husband).  I don't do things in a bid to win or buy her love, I do things as I want her to be happier.  Just today, she said something along the lines of 'See?  This is why you can't move away, without you I'd..'  (I'm not going into details as they're personal, but without me, she'd be worse off than now).



*(Who knows, if I'd have been a dick and tried to steal her away from him when I had the chance, she might never have fallen for me, and this whole thing could be a different kind of mess).