Madrid Terrorist Attacks

[Barcik]

Explosions hit three Madrid commuter trains leaving 131 dead and 400 wounded (and these are just the initial numbers). Fuck all the inevitable discussions that will follow about the US, the war in Iraq, Bush, Israel, Saddam and Bin-Laden. Put it aside and look at the numbers. 131 innocent people who were just going along with their daily schedule were murdered. If we cannot offer people the most basic protection, what good are we?

Edit: Sorry, me and Nacho posted roughly at the same time.

[Las Naranjas]

We need not necessarily delete this. Nacho's can be a thread of pure condolence. And in this one I can ask what possible relevance the US, bin laden and Iraq has here, presuming it is the ETA as is widely believed.
Maybe we can use this thread just to help people understand what exactly is the conflict with the ETA, hopefully not with any passions, but it's not a conflict that is as widely known as others, and I'm sure others here would want a bit of background.

[Jockstrap]

Well undoubtedly Bush will send in US troops to "save the day", then Britain and Australia will follow.....


.....sorry, couldn't help it.......

[Las Naranjas]

look, really mate, not now.

really.

Please.

[Barcik]

Here we go.

ETA are small-time. They have neither the support, nor the resources to pull of something of such magnitude. Since 2003, there were 'just' 3 victims to terrorist attacks by ETA. Furthermore, these attacks have plenty of Al-Qaeda's characteristics: numerous simultaneous attacks and a very crowded target. Also, don't forget Spain was the United States' and the United Kingdom's ally against Iraq. And one more important factor - the elections in Spain are to be held on Sunday. What can convey the message of "Aznar is weak" better? The Basques could have been the executioners, but it is likely that a bigger fish was pulling the strings. This is how terror works.

Common, hate me, I'm waiting for it.

[DGMacphee]

Vampire, I thought you were serious till you edited your post.

Still not appropriate though.

I wouldn't say the ETA don't have the support. Roughly 10% of Basques support them, which is still pretty huge.

[Barcik]

DG, on the other thread (bah, what a mess):

Barcik: It's inevitable that something like this will add fuel to the "War on Terror" spin, so it's no use saying to fuck all discussion on the subject -- It's still an important subject.

DG, I didn't mean it's not important. I just meant "put it aside for a second [while reading my post], and regard the matter simply. [with out all the high-politics]"

[DGMacphee]

You can't look at things like this simply.

[Nacho]

Please, let me explain the Political situation in Spain. With no passion, jut political and historycal facts. I hope this works:

Basque country hasn't been historically enemy of Madrid/Centralism... In fact, a whole Shine in the Basque Country is full of "Lords"... Some Kind made them "Hidalgos" the lowest level of noblemen, for helping him in a civil War (I am talking of the XVIIth century)

It was the catalans who fought against Madrid/Centralism. The "war" started in 1706? When two kings fought for the Throne of Spain (actually, this two families of Kings were fighting along Europe, in France, Germany...)

One was Borbon, the other was German (Ausburg?). While the was in Eurpoe was going ok for the Ausburg, in Spain it was not so good, and the Ausburg abandoned the Spanish campaign to fight in Europe.

So, the member of the Borbon family conqueres the "Kingdom of Aragon" composed by Catalunya, País Valencià , Aragón and Balear Islands.

That king (Felipe V, I think) was French and tried to copy the French model in Spain (Centralism, Madrid=Paris).

That broght a lot of problems... People of the Kingdom od Aragón had their lenguaje, their laws... all was abollished.

The XXth century passed, with Franco's dictadure the prosecution continued. But catalans are pragmatic. Now they're getting a high level of independence thanks to their work.

Surprisingly... when the democracy came, the catalans felt no special anger against the rest of Spain.

So... Why are the Basques so anger? Franco (A dictator who ruled Spain from 1936-79) tried to join all the Spanish people under a "Unique, great and free Spain!"... There started a great prosecution against people who talked basque, catalán, gallego... And a prosecution against the cultures.

But while the catalans forget all and have a pragmatic view of this remaining (everyday less) fascists, some of the basques still have this feeling. I don't know why, specially knowing that  most of the new warriors of ETA are just the sons of inmigrants, and should have nothing to see with that... My conclussion is that when bad people looks for an excuse to kill, they do.

I hope this helps.

[Las Naranjas]

How many resources did Mc Veigh have in Oklahoma? How many people had his organisation of 2 killed up to that point in terrorist attacks?

Yet what was the magnitude of his act.

Terrorism requires far less resources than it seems you imply, and the ETA as a possible suspect does have considerably more resources than he ever did. It seems a much more probable hypothesis than speculation on the possible, but les liekly involvement of Al Queda.

[Barcik]

You can't look at things like this simply.

True enough.

I wouldn't say the ETA don't have the support. Roughly 10% of Basques support them, which is still pretty huge.

This number seems a bit absurd to me. Do these 10% support terrorist attacks or just the independant claims of the Basques?

LasNaranjas:
As with everything, there are plenty of exceptions. I am well aware that my case is no more than a speculation, and that it is possibly 100% false. Yet, from my little life experience and wisdom, I can say that terrorist attacks are more political tools than anything else, and where politics are involved, everything is a lot more complex than what it seems.

[DGMacphee]

It not absurd -- it's 10% who support the violence, and I got that from CNN's website.

Did you want me to be more specific on how I arrived at that figure?

[Nacho]

As a Spanish, I can inform... Basque nationalists, joining the three moderate parties, sum up more than 65% of the Basque population.

The main Basque (EAJ, PNV, or Nationalist Basque party) has total majority, it doens't need alliances to rule, actually.

The "Euskal Habertzaleak" (Basque socialists), the party who wants terrorist fight, has approx 5-10% of the votes.

So.... We can say that Basques want independence, but not terrorism.

In addition... The discussion Al-Quaeda or ETA has not a lot of sense now, but ETA was preppaired two "death Caravans" in Madrid before, with more of 500 kgs. of dinamyte, but they fortunately failed by the work of the police.

[Barcik]

It not absurd -- it's 10% who support the violence, and I got that from CNN's website.

Did you want me to be more specific on how I arrived at that figure?

If you wish.

Gosh, we are editing a lot, and there are two topics. It's just too hard to follow what is going on.

[DGMacphee]

Well, I don't really wish cause I asked you if you wanted me to explain it.

I'm not explaining statistics for my benefit here -- I already looked them up for my benefit and have no real need to explain them.

[Barcik]

Well, please do explain this figure.

[DGMacphee]

There were 2 million Basques who voted in the last election..

Political groups that supported violence to gain independence scored around 200,000 votes.

This equals 10%.

Granted, there are 3 million Basques, but this equals 6-7% -- However, I can't say that for sure because a certain number of non-voters may support violence as a mean of independence.

So the figure stands somewhere between 6-10%, which is close to Farlander's figure.

QED?

[aussie]

Although I call Australia home, I happen to live in Madrid, at least currently.  I think I'm the only member of the community.

What I saw today really has no name.

There were basically 13 bombs in several different trains. They all exploted at peak hours in central stations of the city.

I work at one of the universities, I usually walk here in the mornings. I came in today despite the fact that there was a strike.

A lot of my friends didn't. And that saved their lives.  

I just came back from a 15 minute silent concentration in the med lawn. There were lots of people there crying. Others were just standing around quietly.

Madrid is an extremely noisy place, so the silence was all the more impressive. I'm a practising Catholic, so I pulled out my rosary beads and prayed for awhile too, both for the victims and for the terrorists.

At the end there was quite a moving applause.

Official figures from the Ministry of Internal Affairs speak of 173 dead, 600 wounded.

Ok, it's a smaller scale, but the brutality of this is certainly comparable to September 11.

It's not about Basques and Spaniards. It's about human beings.

Anyway, please keep us all in your prayers.

[Barcik]

Thank you, DG, I guess I underrated ETA's support. 200,000 is still far from the numbers that surround such organizations as Hizbollah and Al-Qaeda, but it is indeed more than I first believed. I wonder if on Sunday (day of the elections) we shall see such figures again.

Aussie, keep strong.

[Fuzzpilz]

Apparently, Batasuna says they don't think it was the ETA, and there also seem to be other signs that are unusual for ETA attacks - apart from the scale, I hear the ETA usually send out warnings/threats before their attacks, but as I'm not very familiar with the Basque conflict I'm not sure that that isn't complete bunk.