Male relationships

[EldKatt]

Eldkatt - as regards linguistics,

ho·mo·sex·you·al    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (hm-sksh-l, -m-)
adj.
Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.

n. Usage Problem
A homosexual person; a gay man or a lesbian.
Usage Note: Many people now avoid using homosexual because of the emphasis this term places on sexuality. Indeed, the words gay and lesbian, which stress cultural and social matters over sex, are frequently better choices. Homosexual is most objectionable when used as a noun; here gay man and gay woman or lesbian and their plural forms are called for. It is generally unobjectionable when used adjectivally, as in a homosexual relationship, although gay, lesbian, or same-sex are also available for adjectival use. See Usage Note at gay.

Regarding the rest, no, not really. If we want to see it that way, everyone in GK2 could have been homosexual, because it's not specified. But what do you assume when you see a non-specified character (so to speak)? Me, I always assume they're hetero until I'm shown otherwise. Along with other things, of course - I assume they're healthy until I'm shown the medication pills, I assume they're single until I see the wedding ring... stuff like that. But just because a character DOES have pills doesn't mean he's UNhealthy, exactly. Just because a character has A ring, it doesn't mean they're married. And just because of that scene it doesn't mean Von Glower is homosexual (though he is, in fact, a very sensual AND sexual creature, as shown by DragonRose's quote of Jansen's interview - many thanks, DragonRose). No "generic homophobia-phobia" here, I'm sorry to tell you.

First of all, I still disagree with your separation of 'gay' and 'homosexual'. In terms of political correctness, sure, there's a difference, but it's not semantic, and that's what I care about.

As for the rest. If I have understood your posts correctly, you say that we should only assume von Glower (or anyone else) is gay if we have proof. Otherwise, we should assume he's hetero. A direct consequence of this is that the only way the author could have even implied homosexuality (or gayness, if the dictionary says it's better in this case) would be to show an explicit or implicit sex scene with a man, have him state "I'm gay" in such a way that the possibility of him lying would be impossible, or some other ridiculously obvious explanation. Only then is it OK for the reader to believe he's gay. If in a novel about a war it is implied that someone is hit by a bullet and presumably killed, we should assume that he's alive and well--since alive and well is the most normal state for a human being--until we see the funeral.

I've already stated my opinions bluntly and over-explicity enough, so I'll just refer to all of reply #10 by Peter Thomas, where a lot of clever stuff is stated. I agree with it all.

(Edit: Yay, I made second page!)

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

First of all, I still disagree with your separation of 'gay' and 'homosexual'. In terms of political correctness, sure, there's a difference, but it's not semantic, and that's what I care about.

Fine by me - after all, as Peter Thomas pointed out, I have inadvertedly let this steer towards opinions, and that's no ground in which to properly discuss, since everyone's entitled to one and no one should change the other person's. Although, in terms of semantic, I WOULD like to know what's the difference, since I just presented you with a dictionary definition. Note that the actual definition is the FIRST line; the line "A homosexual person; a gay man or a lesbian." is under "usage problem.

As for the rest. If I have understood your posts correctly, you say that we should only assume von Glower (or anyone else) is gay if we have proof. Otherwise, we should assume he's hetero. A direct consequence of this is that the only way the author could have even implied homosexuality (or gayness, if the dictionary says it's better in this case) would be to show an explicit or implicit sex scene with a man, have him state "I'm gay" in such a way that the possibility of him lying would be impossible, or some other ridiculously obvious explanation. Only then is it OK for the reader to believe he's gay. If in a novel about a war it is implied that someone is hit by a bullet and presumably killed, we should assume that he's alive and well--since alive and well is the most normal state for a human being--until we see the funeral.

Come on, now, you're taking things to a ridiculous extreme, and I'm sure you know it. The proof doesn't have to be blatant ("Hey, I just got killed! Got that, reader? Dead, me!"), but it's also ridiculous to assume, for instance, a homosexual relationship between Sam and Frodo (I didn't even know about THIS one. ) because of their extremely strong friendship. And for the record, if a character is hit by a bullet and the writer turns to a new viewpoint without telling us what happened, I allow myself not to presume anything until I get further indication; if I'm told he's probably dead, I assume him as dead (allowing the author to maybe bring him back to life as a surprise); if I'm told he's injured, I assume he'll live, until further indication of news.

I've already stated my opinions bluntly and over-explicity enough, so I'll just refer to all of reply #10 by Peter Thomas, where a lot of clever stuff is stated. I agree with it all.

Then I'll just refer you to reply 13, though I would have rather continue the discussion than going over already-travelled ground, that's just not fun at all.

[EldKatt]

Come on, now, you're taking things to a ridiculous extreme, and I'm sure you know it.

Yes, I'm very aware of it. I hope you'll see my point behind it, though.

The proof doesn't have to be blatant ("Hey, I just got killed! Got that, reader? Dead, me!"), but it's also ridiculous to assume, for instance, a homosexual relationship between Sam and Frodo (I didn't even know about THIS one. ) because of their extremely strong friendship.

Returning to the original subject of discussion, what I've read here about GK2 is rather clear. It's not explicit, but it's very far from the Sam and Frodo thing, which, I might add, is just ridiculous. Of course I'd be more entitled to my opinion had I actually played the game in question, but from what I've read I'm rather sure of where I stand. I don't know for sure that he's homosexual, but that side of the scale is tipped over. My main argument here is that I can't see the problem in assuming he's gay. He seems pretty gay to me.

I agree with what I believe was your original point, though. It's not always easy to depict a strong non-romantic bond between two males, because of the general suspicion towards that whole concept, and that's a shame. The point I was making, though, is just that we shouldn't be too afraid of the idea that, hey, there might actually be something more romantic going on.

Oh, and:

Although, in terms of semantic, I WOULD like to know what's the difference, since I just presented you with a dictionary definition.

The point I was trying to make is that there is no semantic difference. I don't quite understand what you're getting at here.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

The point I was trying to make is that there is no semantic difference. I don't quite understand what you're getting at here.

Mexican standoff, it seems. The dictionary definition for "gay" is ALSO

Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.

but there IS this note:

Gay is distinguished from homosexual primarily by the emphasis it places on the cultural and social aspects of homosexuality as opposed to sexual practice.

Yes, I'm very aware of it.  I hope you'll see my point behind it, though.

I do, but everyone makes these assumptions. At the beginning of every story, the characters are a mystery until defined, so we make these "placeholders" until the actual background of the character comes through. It's really nothing major, it just happens, and some writers and directors actually play with that for some very interesting effects. 's all.

Returning to the original subject of discussion, what I've read here about GK2 is rather clear. It's not explicit, but it's very far from the Sam and Frodo thing, which, I might add, is just ridiculous. Of course I'd be more entitled to my opinion had I actually played the game in question, but from what I've read I'm rather sure of where I stand. I don't know for sure that he's homosexual, but that side of the scale is tipped over. My main argument here is that I can't see the problem in assuming he's gay. He seems pretty gay to me.

The problem would only be if he WEREN't. Which is what I though until, again, I saw DragonRose's quote of the JJ interview. There's no real problem, of course.

I agree with what I believe was your original point, though. It's not always easy to depict a strong non-romantic bond between two males, because of the general suspicion towards that whole concept, and that's a shame. The point I was making, though, is just that we shouldn't be too afraid of the idea that, hey, there might actually be something more romantic going on.

And here I'd stray again into personal opinion, , going back to my whole distinction between sexual and sensual and also romantic. So rather than go back into that field in which discussion is virtually impossible, I'll just agree with you, because in general and broad terms, I think exactly the same.

[Meowster]

Seriously, if you walked out your front door to see two men stroking each others hair - what would you think? There are MUCH better ways to indicate platonic love between people, and as open as Terran is, I doubt he'd actually be touching his male friend like that PURELY to show his non-sexual affection.

Okay, wait, stop. Besides telling little kiddies to lick penis heads, Willy Wonka also stroked a little boy's hair in that movie while singing sweetly to him. I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO THINK THAT IT DID NOT INDICATE A SEXUAL LOVE.

However, I do think that, to be fair, those guys sound a little gay in GK. I mean, you could say all sorts of things about non-sexual love and stuff, but the fact is, man that looks gay. I mean, stroking hair isn't usually a way two guys would express love for each other. I know guys at school that hug, put their heads on each other's shoulders, sing together, things like that. And I know girls that stroke each other's hair, hold hands, and things like that. But I don't know one straight guy expressing his love for another straight guy, by stroking his hair.

They sing together? My life is like a musical!

[EldKatt]

I'd still like to claim that that distinction (between 'gay' and 'homosexual') isn't really observed in casual writing like here, and certainly not in speech, but it's not really something worth discussing.

At the beginning of every story, the characters are a mystery until defined, so we make these "placeholders" until the actual background of the character comes through.

These placeholders are probably not identical for everyone, though. I rarely assume a character is heterosexual because I haven't seen anything indicating any sexuality. I assume that it's irrelevant and accept that I have no idea. If sexuality ever becomes relevant my "placeholder" would probably shift to what is most likely at the time. In the GK2 example (which, I'd like to point out again, I don't know anything about except what is in this thread) I might very well assume that he might be homosexual.

[...] sing together [...]

I sing together with people on a daily basis.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Heh. Just wanted to point out that my writing wasn't meant to be casual on that issue. And yes, true - people's placeholders are probably different. It's just one of those things I guessed at from personal experience because it's rarely subject of discussion (and in these cases, where personal experience is the only factor and it's a very subjective one... well, let's just say that it fit very well with the rest of the thread, unfortunately. I didn't want it to be so subjective... but it ended up that way...).

[Blackthorne]

Well, I remember this one time playing football (American - Gridiron) in High School.  My quater back patted me on the ass after I made a good catch.  I didn't think anything of it until he fucked me in the shower later.  He kept saying "Nice catch....."

Bt