Mohammed cartoons

[Flippy_D]

Seems to me like it's an excuse for hardliners to riot. The firey nature of Islam is infectious, and once some people start up a furore, it catches on quickly.

Ironically, these cartoons were first published on the 30th of September last year. The rioting started after newspapers in France, Spain, Italy and Germany all REpublished the cartoon after the Danish paper that originally showed them was forced to apologise by islamic pressure. The republications were on February 1st.

I think that pretty clearly shows that this is a kneejerk reaction. The fact that it didn't start before republications seems to prove that some people out there merely wait for an excuse. It's not like the whole of the muslim community jumped up and swamped the press as soon as the caricatures were published, it's more that this time, the people who enjoy burning flags and firing AKs into the air caught hold of it.

This isn't to say that the blame lies entirely with the extremist activists who are leading the mob. The newspapers, although understandbly taking umbrage at the threatened curtailment of free speech, were too brash in their actions, but I can't really disagree with their general point. However, I don't think making the turban the shape of a bomb was a clever idea on the part of the original cartoonist.

In the end, though, the blame must lie with the hate-inciting minority that lead the mob.

Just a small footnote: Nowhere in the Qur'an does it forbid images of the Prophet.

[Snarky]

If you can avoid trouble then why get into it?

Because some fights are worth fighting.

[RickJ]

Sorry Gord, but I believe that 99.9% of the people who practice your religion are ignorant, intolerant, xenophobic, assholes who are full of themselves.  The last I heard Europe was a free democracy where freedom of speech is considered a fundamental right of the people.   I think the publication of the cartoon was a good thing because it was an exercise of this right and it served to demonstrate to the whole world what the practicioners of Islam are truly like.  Yes, I can make a statement like that because the protests spread world wide so it was not just a few holigans getting out of hand.  If Muslims can't handle living in a free country then they should get the fuck out!

I think this incident is a good thing.  The problem with dealing with muslim  terrorists (or is it freedom fighters, or jihadists or ...) is that they are cowardly cunts who are affraid to show their faces and hide amongst the innocent population.  They know they can do this because they know the US and Europe are reluctant to put innocent people (yes even Muslims) in harms way.  I think we need to have more of these kinds of incidents so that we csan identify the enemy and eliminate them.

I just can't respect a religion whose practioners don't respect mine and who wish to force me to take up their religion under threat of violence.   

This verse orders Muslims to fight in order to establish Allah's kingdom
on earth (world domination) by any means:

From Quuran:
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war): but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practise regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful". 9:5

In other words, the only way for the pagans (or infidels) to be spared from being slain is to become Muslims.

From Focusing On Islam, authored by a Palestianian Christian ...

Is Islam a peaceful religion?

Since the September 11, 2001 attacks on our country, we have heard from our Government Leaders,
The Media, and Islamic Clergy/Scholars that Islam is a peaceful religion. They further state that terrorists
are made up of only a small group of extremists. Lately, questions are starting to arise as to the validity
of those claims. The Quran has many, verses that call for violence towards anyone that does not believe
and follow the ways of Islam. But don't take our word for it, Click HERE to read them for yourself.

And here is an article from an another author (arab/American) LINK

And here is an article from the that may be of interest to all you folks from across the pond.

Gord10, I'm sorry if my post makes you feel bad.  I have always known you to be considerate and someone who I enjoy colaborating with on these forums.   I know that nobody called and asked your opinion or permission to riot or blow up the twin towers.  So I hope you realize my remarks are not directed at you personally.   It seems world events are larger than either of US and that we don't have much choice about how we feel about them or what opinions we may have.  The only thing we can do is be honest  about it.

Cheers
Rick

[voh]

I think the reactions of the people who are going totally apeshit over these images are completely out of this world. They're revolting over a couple of lines drawn on paper. They're revolting because of images of their prophet being published in papers. What about all the images that were published in Middle Eastern countries that had his face displayed quite clearly? Sure, common practice was to leave his face out, but there were still a LOT of images with him just standing there, face shown and everything.

I also think respect for people's religions is very important. The islamic world has shown some signs of prejudice and inflamatory mindsets. The terrorist attacks going 'round the world are a good show of this. It's a sad thing there are so many innocent civilians who, every time a bombing happens anywhere, shake their heads and say "Oh boy, there we go again..." just as we respond when it happens. But there are always the bad apples in the bunch, and seeing as how a lot of the things we know and hear of the ME are what we hear through the media, our visions of that part of the world is coloured to say the least.

I know people from Jordan, who are very relaxed and respectful. I know an iraqi, who is an awesome guy and has a lot of respect for those who do not believe in Allah. As he says "We're not taught to hate those who don't believe in Allah. We are taught to respect their choice, and to pray for them."

I've been attacked by Morrocans many times. I've been mangled, beaten up, had bricks thrown at my head while I was walking away from them. Why? Once because one of them came up to me and demanded that I hand over my bike, then proceeded to beat me up with 3 of his friends when I declined. Once because there was a group of 3 Morrocan guys sitting on a bench right opposite of my house, and they overheard me talking with a friend about me being jewish and related issues. They threatened me and my friend. I tried to calm them down and stayed calm myself, but eventually said that I didn't want to fight and walked away. They started shouting I was a coward and started laughing. When I got my bike from the stand, me and my friend calmly walked away. Then a brick hit my ear and landed on the ground in front of me. My friend freaked and wanted to run, but I told him to calm down and just walk as if nothing happened. When I got to the bar we were going to, I cracked.

But even after going through all this, I'm not prejudiced. When I meet someone, I judge them based on the experience I have with them personally, not with their "group". When Theo van Gogh was murdered by a Morrocan, I went to the wake that was held in Amsterdam. There were a lot of muslims there, and shaken by what had happened that day I was kind of scared that some form of a riot would break out. But as it turned out, most of them were there to pay respect to him too. Even if he insulted them and wrote awful things about muslims, these people were here to pay their respect to someone they didn't agree with, but felt (as I did, and many along with me) that nobody should be murdered for what they believe in or stand for.

I went up to a muslim guy, and asked him why he was there. He told me he was incredibly shocked when he heard the news and just kept thinking "Please don't let it be a muslim". He said that he was there to show that not every muslim was scary in their belief, and without respect. In his own words "I do not condone people killing in the name of my god", and he meant it. I shook his hand and thanked him for being there. He thanked me for listening.

I went home and thought about it. And when I heard about this news I thought about it some more.

The western world is indeed becoming less of a religious place than it used to be. The Middle East is still very, VERY religious. When the west was religious, we'd go out and burn those who didn't believe in the same God. Remember the Cathars? Remember the "moors" the Crusades were supposed to fight? Those were the muslims. The Christians stole Jerusalem from the muslims, and held it for a hundred or other years, and then lost it again.

Sure, we've gone beyond that, but we've BEEN there. We've been just as bad as they were. The total disrespect the white man and christianity has shown to those who were different is still evident, but doesn't mean the current white men or christians should be blamed for old mistakes.

But we also can't blame Muslims for doing that which we would probably do as well, if we were still 95%+ actively religious Christians.

The world is a changing place. Some say we're more evolved than the people from the Middle East. I say we've changed. We've gotten to a point they might reach one day as well. But in their relative solitude, they've kept to their beliefs as we haven't.

And regardless of what should be allowed to be said, respect matters a lot as well.

Burning embassies is dumb. Boycotting countries that have nothing to do with the origin of the cartoons is possibly even dumber. Threatening to kill residents of said countries is pretty much the most retarded thing to do. But what's retarded, dumb and inconceivable to us, might be the truth for others.

And you can't ignore that.

(concerning the previous post)

The problem with the Qu'Ran is that it's not supposed to be translated. Also, those who have translated the Qu'Ran have either been ex-muslims or non-muslims, and their view on the Qu'Ran might be incredibly coloured. So unless you know Arabic and read the original manuscript, I think it's safe to say you don't know what you're talking about, as do most of the people who say there's passages in the Qu'Ran about this and that. It's the same with the Bible, really. Who's to say what the original manuscript said, as all most people know is their specific translation. I can imagine there'd be differences between a Dutch Bible and an American Bible as well, however small they migth be.

[fred]

The good thing about freedom of speech is that when radical opinions are expressed openly, everyone can see how lame they are - they aren't surrounded by secrecy and "swear-on-your-life-to-join-the-club" rituals that are probably half the attraction to many young people.

[Flippy_D]

Props to Voh.

[SSH]

Why does freedom of speech mean that you need to go out of your way to piss people off?

[Bartimaeus]

It doesn't mean that.
It means you should be able to say what you want without fear of having your head cut off.
Its not entirely unreasonable.

[passer-by]

but I believe that 99.9% of the people who practice your religion are ignorant, intolerant, xenophobic, assholes who are full of themselves.Ã, 

Is that based on experience or hearsay? Can you say the opposite about christians? I mean, that 99.9% of them are decent? Because I can easily make it 99.8% When you say that the west is not ignorant, intolerant etc, do you include the remote christian villagers in several countries where analphabetism and limited access to the media is a common thing? Do you include the christian grannies that spent their days around the local priest, which sometimes happens to be a wonderful wonderful person but he can also be a fanatic or an ignorant who's telling them that the muslims are making a fuss somewhere, burning embassies and all that, but doesn't tell them how it started in the first place? I think your statement above makes you quite intolerant and xenophobic.

Just to clear things, I'm not a muslim.

[Nikolas]

I have been in Damascus!

I have spent an amazing week in there. I'm Greek, Unan! We are a little alike. Damascus reminded me very much of Athens. And Athens is in Europe right now!

From what I've seen in my life, the further south you go the more things get political incorrect. more "uncivilised". More "wrong".

And I'm pretty sure that if you got a muslim and let him stay for ten years in Sweden or something, he then would never even consider doing the things that are being done in Damascus. Who says that these people know what they're doing. Everybody's following what they have been taught in their lives. So much supression, so much pain, so much war and so much pressure from the UN and US and EU and all the two letter bullshit around us...

The right thing to say would be that "nothing justifies so much violence and hatred..." but I find that a lot of things do...

[Paper Carnival]

Muslims != evil. Though I believe that extreme muslims are more likely to cause trouble than extreme Christians (I'm talking about the present), it doesn't degrade muslims because the extremism doesn't come out of a "real" christian or muslim.

My country is illegally divided in two parts by force (but nobody cares or knows because we don't have oil). We have a greek (supposedly christian) part and a turkish (muslim) part. A couple of years ago travelling to the other half became possible and me and my family went to see my dad's village where he lived before the turkish invasion that forced greeks to move to the south part and vice versa. We met a few very nice people so far, way friendlier than the people from my part. However, we also met a crasy-assed person who would have seriously considered killing us if he was carrying a shotgun with him at that moment.

We've also checked out a small cemetery and saw that the crosses on the graves were all violently smashed. Some churches were turned to stables, even. The rest are turned into muslim temples. However, all the turkish temples are still preserved in the Greek part.

My point is that, speaking from experience, muslims are generally good people. They do have some nasty extremists, though. And if an ordinary muslim gets extreme on some issues, it's not always because he's crazy or hateful. It's because muslims are generally more faithful than Christians and hold a lot of things sacred.

[Gord10]

@RickJ: To be honest; I think you're right with most of the things you said.

But the ratio %99,9 is too much. Yes, it was a very crowded riot which burnt the embassy buildind etc., but it doesn't mean %99,9 of Muslims are xenophobic. I believe your only information source about Muslims is the media; you could just learn the way we are shown. Me, my friends, my family and all my environment are Muslims; but we are not assholes who wants to destroy the civilization of Christanity.  As Guybrush said; Muslims are not equal to evil.

I want to note that the Westerners who visit Turkey usually changes their mind of prejudices. They see Islam is only a religion, not a thought of evilness or barbarianism. Also I believe I'm a good example of this, too. I had tried to be a part of a univarsal community, and guess I'm successful.

[HillBilly]

http://drawmohammed.com/

I kinda expected this.

[hedgefield]

There's a difference between doing something like this to piss people of, or doing it to make people think. I think the problem is that most people can't see through that, and think it's meant to be purely insulting.

[Nacho]

Gord10: You said "99.9% of us are not xenophobic". Re-read my post and notice that I have said that 99.9% of muslims are normal, not the oposite. I totally agree with the spirit of your posts (Cartoons=annoying, enough to burn embassies? no!).

[Paper Carnival]

Actually, his post was directed to RickJ, so no worries Farl

[Nacho]

I noticed... late ^_^. Anyway, saying that all this piss is made because they're religious is wrong, IMO. They make all that buzz because they're morons, not believers. I am sure there must be a lot of lines in Coran saying, more or less, that the acts they're doing is not allowed by Islam.

[Tuomas]

A bit off topic, but I recall some German youth making a christian calendar with pornographic pictures from the bible. Shame I can't remember the address.

[Nacho]

Quite off topic...

[Pumaman]

The western world is indeed becoming less of a religious place than it used to be. The Middle East is still very, VERY religious. When the west was religious, we'd go out and burn those who didn't believe in the same God. Remember the Cathars? Remember the "moors" the Crusades were supposed to fight? Those were the muslims. The Christians stole Jerusalem from the muslims, and held it for a hundred or other years, and then lost it again.

Exactly. There are very few Christians these days who take their religion so seriously that they'd start a riot or burning things, just because somebody insults Jesus. But as you say, several years ago, this was a completely different story.

Look at what happened with the Jerry Springer Opera last year -- it was highly blasphemous and did attract protests from Christian groups; however nobody stormed the theatre or set fire to the cast.

On the other hand, a lot of Muslims still take their religion very seriously indeed. This in itself isn't a bad thing, of course, but it does mean that they are more likely to get very upset if someone comes along and takes the piss out of their beliefs.

At the same time, as with any large protest, these cartoons have given a lot of people who aren't particularly upset with them an excuse to come out and demonstrate and have a bit of a riot. And I did find it quite funny that at the protest in London they were holding up banners promising more terror attacks, even though the cartoons hadn't actually been published here...