Adventure Game Studio

Morals anyone?

I've come to the point in my game which could be disrespectful to a religion, me personally I don't have a religion, but I respect others beliefs, nor am I racist, ageist, sexist or homophobic, i take people as i find them. how do you draw the line? Its funny really but saying you don't believe mean you need to be saved or your evil, the son of Satan lol, but to believe in that, you have to believe the rest!:P
Maybe I'm make up my own and save any hassle

woodz

I guess I kinda believe in God because everything had to be made somehow! But I don't have a proper religion. I am really against racism, and sexism, and I have NO problem with homosexuals.

Tell me what is the "offencive" thing. It might not be offencive at all, and Odysseus Kent (Yahtzee's last game) has some things in it that might have been offencive to religion. It might not be offencive at all. One teacher in a school where people were primarily muslim made a rule that no one can display pictures of pigs publicaly or read "three little pigs" out loud. She ended up offending the muslims because while they can't eat pork they can look at pigs and read about them and the teacher offended them because she didn't know that.  There is such a thing as too politicaly correct.

I'd be picking on Christianity sorry but their "we are right, you are wrong" attitude gets up my nose , all the other religions have had they own forms of persecution without me adding to it, and its also what was drummed into me at school, so I have an understanding of it.

it'll be easier to show you in the game, i'll post that bit, when its done in the critics bit ;)
did you know, satan was made up in the middle ages to scar the population into the church? the image we know is a pagan goat god! and is sod all to do with the bible

My nickname used to be Sashasatan. Satan traditionaly is the servant of god, the tool of temptation and punishment. Yes, they do scare people into religion that way. it's pretty much " believe or go to hell". And their interpretations of the bible surprise me. There suposed to be no churches and no one should pray in public. The bible contradicts itself many times because so many people wrote in it.  I picked on religion before yet I defended those who's religion got picked on by other people.  First I mentioned evolution and got into a fight ( my fight with Kikme) and then I got angry at people for picking on religion ( The Squinky/Gilbot fake fight) . Gee, I contradict myself too  :o

By making the statements they do, religions leave themselves open to questions and perhaps criticism. That's just fine, if you want to have a laugh with what you see as the absurdity of a religious law or practice no problem. As Billy Connelly pointed out, if the Catholic Church can't handle a hairly Scot taking the mick, then they have bigger problems than him.

Ridiculing or criticising a religion is not a problem, unless by doing so, you infringe upon the rights of another individual to practice that religion.

I'm not actually a cristian, I guess its sort of my own religion, becuse I have my own beliefs and thoughts.

most wars came under the name of some god, even this latest one has religion thrown in, in WW2 the goal was domination but the nazis found time to try and wipe out the jews, i once found a site for a baptist church in the USA, they believe children with eye defects, hearing problems should be sterilized at birth, women where basicly slaves, and worse than dirt. i e mailed them and never got a reply lol heres the site http://www.landoverbaptist.org/

look at the site first, heres the email i sent:
HI!
I know you will probably reject this correspondence instantly but I wish to exercise my right to freedom of speech. My wife stumbled across your web site;.. Wait!  I know! You are amazed, but women ARE capable of lateral thinking, and women in the real world have progressed from Stepford Wives and Catherine Cookson stereotypes.
I have a few issues I would like to discuss, first the sterilization of "demon children", well, living in the UK no way, legally, could you find a doctor who would even consider doing this procedure on a healthy infant, and the social services would have you kid into care before you could say "sterilization", do you sterilize the parents too after all it is a genetic thing, and your elder members when they need glasses or when their hearing goes, are they not possessed also? Sinned in some way?
I never ever thought I would be talking about this in a letter but;. Masturbation, and getting self-gratification from the image of god/Jesus? Was man not made of the image of god? Therefore god must be male in appearance, does this not make it a homosexual act? The mere concept is rather off putting, having to collect a beaker from a female, and;NO! I'm not gonna dwell on that! Have you found the cure for masturbation?! I'll take my chances by getting struck by lightening!
Did you know the burning of tampons gives off toxic fumes, so I wouldn't recommend cooking marshmallows in the fire! Plus it's not very environmentally friendly!
I was quite impressed by your film reviews, Hannibal, was biblical, I must watch it again because I obviously missed something last time, eating a human brain is ok is it? And Harry Potter and your concerns about your children eating in closets or under beds, maybe you should look at yourselves, H Potters authority figures where responsible for these actions, have you seen Carrie? Her sin was becoming a woman, and her over religious parent dished out the same punishment, so the child could repent none existent sins, the all American anti Christ Marilyn Manson, had over religious parents, and a so called "healthy" Christian up bringing, a perverse grand father and a fanatic religious teacher, scarred him and terrified him throughout childhood moulding him into the man he is today, I'm not sure if your group also has a crusade against him, but you do realize all the bans and bad publicity makes him richer?
I could go on, but I'll save that for a later date assuming I get a response to this email,
I would like to say I was that demon child, cursed with an eye defect, but I look across the room ** years on, at my perfect children, and smile smugly in the knowledge you are so wrong. Being that I have lived a demonic lifestyle, I have never read the bible apart from selected parts chosen by teachers and god fearing folk like yourselves but I understand its open to ones own interpretation, as is the Hannibal film, but I find your beliefs rather neo-nazi but disguised behind a religion, to the point of ethnic cleansing, racist, homophobic, and sexism, but enjoy your version of heaven, because you will be very lonely seeing that women are soulless and 99% of the worlds population don't qualify in your eyes!  

Woodz, I think that site is a spoof. And in places, a pretty tasteless one too.

i hope so Archangel! i never got a reply

Religion is weird, yeah. What a person with strong beliefs is basically saying is "What I think must be right, no argument,  because it's what I think". Man, what I'd do for that much confidence....

Landover Baptist Church is satire, yeah... black , black comedy, for sure, though I'm still amazed that anyone could take it seriously... same sort of people who belived in "Bonsai Kittens", I suppose....
Dark sarcasm should be taught in schools.

There are some disturbing christian sites that are real, though...

www.capalert.com/

A christian movie review site. Some of the reviews are very... energetic and interesting. Don't know wether to laugh or sigh.

http://www.evolutionlies.com/

Some wonderfully incoherant arguments. One of my favorite websites for stoking my misanthropy. I really like the bit about peppered moths, where he gets all confused and ends up arguing FOR evolution...

I've got a load more of these, if anyones interested...

Davy

Woodz: Even if that site was proper, and the makers believed in hell, they would go there, because they are so blastfomous.

I found one called Crossroads, and had a great time with them, i never gained anything people like that are always right it their eyes, i've played the evolution game a few times in MSN chat the fact dino bones litter the world means nothing to them, i wish i could change the last 10 years of my life coz a book told me this is fact. wouldn't it be cool if The cat in the Hat was the bible ;)


as for the site i emailed, i wasn't sure, everyone who saw it at the time felt the same, its worrying tho that there is cults and shite like that which do go over the edge, and the power these ppl have over their flocks

Don't censor yourself. As long as what you say is at least tasteful, you have every right to keep it in your game. If you piss somebody off, they certainly have a right to be pissed off. But don't let that stop you from sharing your beliefs..

Hmm, if you're going to say something that might be offensive to Christians, be careful about it.

Christians can be divided up in two: Average Christians, and Fundamentalist Christians. "Fundies" are the ones with the crazy websites. They're pretty easy to offend, but there really aren't that many of them (they're a vocal minority.) Even the average Christian thinks Fundies take their religion too far.

The average Christians, however, aren't worth offending, because they're generally pretty nice and don't practice their religion in a hostile way. You probably know a lot of people who are Christians but don't feel the need to wear it on their sleeves. So if you want to be offensive, please don't confuse the "nice" Christians with the Fundies.

This is all coming from the guy who made Satan Quest. :D I don't think I got any complaints about that.

I think trap sums it up pretty well. We just had a bunch of fundies picket our high school, cause we had a gay student. (note; our whole town has less then 10000 people..the high school, 700). They are pretty nasty.

Although, they also dont play computer games. except maybe HL with gay people skins, so they can blow them away.


the above comment was a joke btw

yes i agree, the nasty ones i have no respect for, or the ones who try to ram it up ur nose, some ppl find comfort from it and plays a big part of their lifes, but like you say don't wear it on their sleeves.

its hard to believe in the 21 century people can be so small minded (
gay guy at high school)

I have respect for all religions, except for fundies, and pehaps jehovis whitnesses. Just the ones that come round our house all the time trying to make us into a jehovis whitness.  >:(

just ask em if they want to give you a hand Sacrificing a chicken.they run a mile!

lol

It's even possible to feel some understanding for fundamentalists, but considering some of the things they say and do it's not easy...
I guess this is easy for me to say since I never have to deal with fundies.

I'm not even sure what this discussion SHOULD BE about. But I find it necessary to emphasize Sasha's point.

Every time someone mentions Bible, someone points out that Christians are full of crap. And that The Bible contradicts itself and thus is incredible. Concluding that Christianity is nothing but a tasteless joke.

It's logical, but in my opinion, the wrong conclusion. It's true that there are lots of contradictions, for the very reason Sasha pointed out. And it's true that almost all 'righteous' Christians you might know of, are hypocrites. Going to church on Sundays and so on. Nonetheless, I do not make the conclusion that Christianity is what these facts imply.

I think the essence of Christianity comes down to the gospel(s). I should point out that they're the only texts in the New Testament that supposedly contain God's message (told by Jesus). The others are written by people who didn't know more than we do, so to say. Anyway, I can't find anything in it that would contradict with itself. I also can't see anything negative about it. It only promotes things that are universally regarded good: don't kill, don't steal - in the simplest form. No matter what, living by the moral found in the gospel can only produce good, in my opinion. I don't think that can be disputed.

In my opinion, the whole issue pretty much comes down to this: "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit."

OK. I'm done.

Bah I'm my mind is being thrown about with this..I was brought Catholic and I'm going to die one..but I don't know if completely if its true..It was all well and good until I realised it was much like Mythology (Heaven,angels,God) so I'm a little confused.I also at one point thought that the bible just might have been a novel(seemed very Likely). Then I also thought it might have been an elaberate prank, and 2000 years later, still going strong..but the last one is probably bullshit.

And about death row,couldn't that count as penence? I mean they are sorry for raping,killing,whatever, And I understand that & I would very well forgive that person if he were to murder me, but we would have to teach them that what they did is bad. So I'm all for death row but I think that in the case of lethal injection, that might not be crude enough. I think they be treated the same as there victims were.

What say they raped some girl/guy, then performed horrible acts of tourture apon them, like  slowly removing limbs, and just generaly doing things that would make a nazi doctor blush, does that mean we can do that all back on the criminal.

That is exactly what I am talking about. Sounds a little inhumane..but the crime rate would be cut in half, if not more.

And who would you get whose government job it would be to rape people and tear their limbs off, or other such bizarre punishments?

Never thought that about it much becuase it was a far fetched idea..I guess other rapist..or (because it doesn't envole a raping job) we can atleast bring the electric chair back to every state.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

Electric chair - bad idea. :)

Even without the quote, I don't think anyone is less of a criminal if they commit the same acts for the sake of punishment. The people who committed the punishment would be equally bad. If not worse. Think about it, organized raping and torture?

But then again, we're pretty much running out of options. :P

Not that my point wouldn't still stand.

A pointless little fact. Murder rates are higher where capital punishment is in force (That's in a psychology textbook I have)

What's wrong with a fundamentalist?
They are people who believe in fundamentals.
Many of you can't seem to tolerate fundamentalists.
I'm a hardcore christian. I believe in the fundamentals. I'm a fundamentalist. (Bring it)
Many of you guy's stereotyped us. (not pointing out anyone)
A true Christian fundamentalist doesn't hate anyone, but loves 'em.
Many people go overboard, true.

So, Jimi, you respect all religions as long as the people don't truly believe in it. I see... Just asking. sorta.

Your eye for a eye description... eh. Doesn't sound right. It's refering to justice. Anyone here like Justice? That's what it is. Someone who murders deserves to die. stuff like that. How about Bin Laden? think we should just leave him? no, Justice must be served.
If you would look deeper into the Bible, it'll make sense.
The Bible is regard as the best book in the World, by both christians and non-christians. True!
(Can't see any contridictions or bad stuff. And I know more about it then many of you. Not bragging or beging arrogant, ya see. just proving a point)

Don't worry about offending me, cuz that's kinda beside the point. I'm not one of those guys who believe relativity(unless it applies to space-time and such), I'm an extreme absolutist. I'd say when somethings right or wrong. Now, many people will go and say oh you #!@$@#$ intolerant#$@#$#hateful !@$#!@son of a @#$@#. Not true. Don't be obsessed with hate, there's more than that. How bout love? (not romance type, but real one)

About evolution, what turns me off about it is the unreality of it. The entire theory is flawed. If you open your eyes, don't be so narrow-minded, you'll see.

Oh, and Sasha made a comment about Satan being a servent of God for temptation and punshiment. Only part true. Satan was an Angel(nothing to do with tempation and such) once, but fell and became the Devil. The devil tempts and stuff, but is not God's servant. God can use him though, cuz God is all powerful and such. (if God's not Omnipotent, He's not God, is He?)

Many of you seem to have views and make statements about the Bible, Christianity and Christians, but don't seem to grasp them very well.

Now, about Morals, as you probably already guessed. I believe in a definite right and wrong. What I say does not determine morality, but I try to seek the truth. What I say is not Truth, but I try to say Truth. Know what I mean? It changes the face of a fundamental if you get it.

Don't want to offend or hurt anyone, not my intention, just to tell the truth, at least my grasp of it.

Dang! That's one frigg'n long post. I wouldn't read it. too long. I must leave. (I usually don't right nearly this long.) Sorry, man.

P.s. ArchAngel has no relation to me. he actually stole my name! What the heck?  :)

If it's obvious it is a joke, there is no reason you can't pick on religion or anything else.

The way I see it is if you can't take a joke, you're not really human, or you deserve to be offended.

"Someone who murders deserves to die."

Now, I could answer this like you, and all the other 'hardcore Christians'. "That's not right. Open your eyes and see." See what? What's the use of saying that? What would you learn? Nothing! Be more specific or it's nothing more than a couple of nice words. "Use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." The very same logic holds true in this case.

Furthermore, if you murder a murderer, doesn't that make you a murderer? Don't you deserve to be murdered? "Judge not, that ye be not judged."

Related to aforementioned, I encourage you to give some reasons for why the evolution theory for example is so flawed. I'm not saying it's a complete and indisputable theory, but I'd like to be proved wrong about the fact that you don't have very good reasons behind your arguments.

"Many of you seem to have views and make statements about the Bible, Christianity and Christians, but don't seem to grasp them very well."

Could it be that this applies to you as well? Or even more so.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:  But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." How much more directly can you be in controversy with what Jesus teaches? You even say that killing is OK, when it is in The Bible: DO NOT KILL.

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

(Ironically, this applies to me as well.)

I know I am being offensive and perhaps too strict, but being the blind leader is worse than being blind.

Please, prove me wrong or continue seeking.

(By the way, I apologize for taking the discussion ever more off-topic. This just seems to be the most logical place for this discussion. It doesn't seem reasonable to take the discussion elsewhere.)

Its been cool to see what people think, religion comes in many shapes and forms, some people live by there ideals and can gain comfort from it, there are some which use it as a tool, and hide behind the name to justify their actions, Northern Ireland is a case in point.
My being faithless is the result is a cascade of events, but I won’t bore you with that, when my judgment day comes, if I’m wrong I’ll have a lot of apologizing to do!
At the end of the day, I don’t like opera or the Tellie Tubbies,(def Satan’s little helpers!)  So I don’t watch it, porn offends me so I just don’t look; we all have the power to use the “off” button.
As far as my game goes I’ll probably be ok if I mention  the content may offend, but I don’t think it will

I think that everyone has their own little religion. No one can interpret another person perfectly. In Russia the Bible was mistranslated. later, it was translated again, this time more accurately. Most people laccepted the change but some didn't these people came to be known as "old-faiths". These people had to live in secrecy in Siberia because of heavy prosecution. Everyone who failed to accept the new interpretation of the bible was killed. Even now some families live secretly in Siberia away from the rest of the world and technology, maybe some of them still think they are beeing prosecuted...
My Great-Grandfather was an old faith.  Many of my mother's ancestors were pastors(sorry, I can't find an appropriate english title). One of them didn't marry a woman because she didn't give a beggar some bread. I quit Russian arthodox when I was 7 after reading a passage in the Bible saying that your husband is your master or something of that effect. I deviced my own unique set of beliefs after that. Religion is for people who seek to belong, cults are for people who seek to rebel but can't do it on their own. Why critisize them now? As much as I am aware, many people here are Jewish or Christian. They don't tell you to believe. I guess religion is okay as long as no-one forces you into it.  

I like the fact that if kids laugh at you you can pray and god will send bears to kill them.

THAT's religion :D

Ok, ArchAngel85, here goes...

Firstly, since I was here first, it is you who stole my name :P And besides, there must be hundreds of people on the internet who have the nick Archangel.

Secondly, you comments on evolution; the main problem I have is that arguments against it are substantially more flawed than arguments for it.

Thirdly, you go on about 'love', and yet, and I quote, "Someone who murders deserves to die. stuff like that. How about Bin Laden? think we should just leave him? no, Justice must be served." Isn't murder one of THE UTMOST FORBIDDEN THINGS stated throughout the bible? Surely then there is no way that you could condone the death penalty.

Fourthly, you say "If you open your eyes, don't be so narrow-minded, you'll see." Now which is more narrow-minded, believing blindly in a 2000 year old revolutionist, or believing in the top few hundred greatest minds of the past few centuries?

Fifthly, you say there are no contridictions in the bible. Well how's about these for contridictions. The Crusades. The elimination of an entire civilisation in the south of France, because of their homosexuality. I could go on, but my history is not that hot.

And finally, you complain about people stereotyping you. Well I'm sorry, but when you seem to fit a stereotype so perfectly, it's difficult to avoid.

Yey, a religious discussion! Cool! I just love them! I hope I will bring some fresh perspective here with my post :-) Let's have a quick review:

Quote
did you know, satan was made up in the middle ages to scar the population into the church?

Sorry, this is wrong. Satan appears in the Old Testament, which was written about 3000 years ago.

Quote
Yes, they do scare people into religion that way. it's pretty much " believe or go to hell".

Hmmmm... Well, yes and no. I admit, there are MANY so-called Christians who go around and threaten people they will go to Hell, but I assure you that no true Christian will ever do that. True Christians know that it's up to God to decide who goes to Hell and not up to those people. They are doing bad thing for Christianity and I admit I am also pretty much pissed off by that, although I am myself a Christian.

Quote
The bible contradicts itself many times because so many people wrote in it.

I don't think Bible contradicts itself MANY times. There are a few errors (like that thing about King Solomon having 4000/40000 stalls) but they are pretty much due to text getting damaged and/or bad translations. In Bible's general message there are absolutely no contradictions.

Quote
Christians can be divided up in two: Average Christians, and Fundamentalist Christians. "Fundies" are the ones with the crazy websites. They're pretty easy to offend, but there really aren't that many of them (they're a vocal minority.) Even the average Christian thinks Fundies take their religion too far.

The average Christians, however, aren't worth offending, because they're generally pretty nice and don't practice their religion in a hostile way. You probably know a lot of people who are Christians but don't feel the need to wear it on their sleeves. So if you want to be offensive, please don't confuse the "nice" Christians with the Fundies.

Hey Trap, nice to see you here :-) I believe I find myself in the category of "average Christians", because I do believe in God and think that Bible was God-inspired, but I don't go around and say "Hey everyone, you will go to Hell, I am the best!" and stupid stuff like that (ops, I've just said it! haha). But, don't you think that the thing that offends a Christian fundie will also offend an average Christian? Woodz, if you criticize the "fundie Christians" as Trap described them (a good exaple of this category would probably be Carrie's mother from the book/movie Carrie) by all means you have my support (even though I'm a Christian, too). But if you're going to talk how Christianity and religion in general are stupid, then that's another thing. Sure, if you bring some arguments, that's copletely cool. But you said you were going to "mock" Christianity. Why? When you said that "we are right, you are wrong, blah blah" you described the fundie Christian thing, which (I repeat) has nothing to do with Christianity as it's described in the New Testament. Of course, I'm not trying to tell you what to put in your game or something. Whatever you do, I will definitely play it and I'm looking forward to it.

Quote
I have respect for all religions, except for fundies, and pehaps jehovis whitnesses. Just the ones that come round our house all the time trying to make us into a jehovis whitness.

Ummm, coming round your house is far from being the worst thing about Jehovah witnesses :-). Did you know that they forbid blood transfusion? Many kids died because their parents forbid doctors to do the blood transfusion (or an organ transplatation) because that was against their religion (they say it's based on one of the verses in the Old Testament, but this is completely wrong).

Quote
Thirdly, you go on about 'love', and yet, and I quote, "Someone who murders deserves to die. stuff like that. How about Bin Laden? think we should just leave him? no, Justice must be served." Isn't murder one of THE UTMOST FORBIDDEN THINGS stated throughout the bible? Surely then there is no way that you could condone the death penalty.

You got him there :-) His post sounded like some crappy Republican Party propaganda. Whenever I heard people like G.W. Bush were calling themselves Christians, my stomach turns around.

Quote
Fourthly, you say "If you open your eyes, don't be so narrow-minded, you'll see." Now which is more narrow-minded, believing blindly in a 2000 year old revolutionist, or believing in the top few hundred greatest minds of the past few centuries?

Ummm, none of those two things is narrow minded, and they come completely hand-in-hand. Jesus was indeed a great revolutionist and the single most important figure in history. And greatest minds of past few centuries were mostly religious. I will mention only Newton, Gauss and Pascal but there are many many more of course.

Quote
Fifthly, you say there are no contridictions in the bible. Well how's about these for contridictions. The Crusades. The elimination of an entire civilisation in the south of France, because of their homosexuality. I could go on, but my history is not that hot.

I mentioned something about those contradictions earlier in this post, but what do you mean by Crusades? How is that related to Bible which was written like 600 years earlier?

Now, the main point: You people divide Christians into two categories and say "this category is nice, we should leave them alone, but this other category is nasty, so we should do our best to insult them and stuff". This is pretty much a Nazi attitude. Why would you mock or insult people like Christian fundamentalists? OK, you don't like them, that's fine, then just leave them alone. Don't speak to them, ignore them, unless they start something themselves. You are forgetting that we can also divide non-religious people into two categories: average non-religious people and atheist fundamentalists. I am sorry to say, but some of you easily fall into this other category. Why don't we all just live and let other people live? And finally, you are saying you are pissed off by the attitude of Christians, but what should I say about the attitude of non-Christians, like in Hollywood movies? Or for example Stephen King books? (note: I really enjoy King's work, I think he's a great writer) Every time someone religious appears, he/she is immediately shown as a fanatic, lunatic, stupid person etc. etc. I will only mention here two movies that I really really hated (and I think with a good reason) - Dogma and Chocolate. On the other hand, I really seldom see the examples of "Christian fundamentalism". The only pro-religion film I've seen lately was Signs, and even that one was not a bit offensive to people who are not religious.

Ummmmmm, looks like I'm done :-) Peace with you all

I'd like to say that I agree with Harvester in that I think there are plenty of "fundamental" atheists who will be just as hardcore and insulting as the fundamentalist christians they can't stand.  I don't have any problem with either of those people, it's just when they start hitting you over the head with it and calling things "obvious" that it gets to me.  On that note, Archangel85, don't say things like "Open your eyes" and expect your points to be self-evident.  

Also, I've not seen Chocolate, but in defense of Dogma, Harvester, I'd like to point out that Kevin Smith (the director of the film) is indeed a devout Catholic (hence the many Catholicism-specific references in the film), and that film was not made in satire of the religion itself but if anything as a comment on the fact that religion rests more on the basis of faith than on the basis of superficial rules.  If you can't bring yourself to like the film, at least accept it in the spirit it was intended, which is not one of mockery.  As a Catholic I have no problem with the film; it's just trying to make a call between true faith and the plenty of people who just follow all the rules and loopholes and call themselves religious.

Looks like I've ended up posting more about Dogma than anything else :P  Well, we had an IRC discussion about Kevin Smith movies then I watched them all again so I'm all in the mood.

Dogma I  dug, it was just Smith talking about his take on religion, far as I can tell. Offensive, maybe, but thought provoking stuff often is....

The evolution deal... it always made the most sense to me, man, and I've read a lot of creationism v evolution stuff. SOme of the pro evolution ponits that I hold dear...

Kitties and Doggies. Look at all the wierd fuckery we've done to them by selective breeding, just over a thousand or so years. 'Course, this isn't exactly the same as evolution, because evolution's a kind of blind-chance-best-of-luck-deal, not someone choosing the bits they want in the next generation, pick and mix style...

Elephants. Elephants always used to have these huge, quality, major-leauge tusks. Good for clearing out shrubbery and proving to the other elephants what a big hard fellow you are, all that jive. THe lady elephants found the tuskiest males the hottest  - and vice-versa, I guess - mated with them, and had big tusked offspring. And so it went.
But now, elephants get hunted by people for the tusks, for the ivory.  They kill the tuskier ones, 'cause they get more ivory that way, and leave any inadequate-small-tuskers, or no-tusk freaks. In recent elephant generations, more and more small tusks and no tuskers are being born, as the micro-tusk genes become more and more common in the elephant gene pool, due to the actions of the hunters... evolution in action, man...

The fact that things aren't perfect. God being an all powerful, ineffible creator, wouldn't he have done a better job? Why the appendix? Did he decide to slip that nasty little bile bomb in there just to keep us on our toes? Could go off at any time, man....
Why do people go senile and lose the control of their bladders and bowels when they get old? What kind of a way is that to reward someone who's managed to make there way through life? Not something I reckon a loving god would do....

And then there's the unfeasibly large testicles of the northern wright whale. BUt i'll tell you about them later.

Davy

I'm not religious, but I definately have morals and the 2 really don't have much to do with each other.

I also don't like religious debates, cause it's impossible to win either way.

Just another moralistic point of view on the topic of medicine, should we actually use medicine to heal people. Is it the right thing to do, are we trying to play god too much.

When it's someones turn to go, it should be their time, yet we save peoples lives and try to prolong our lives as long as possible.

Is it just part of our gene's and a will to live, or are we just too scared to see what's on the other side?

Are we scared to lose the ones we love.

From a religious point of view altering the human timeframe is probably seen as wrong in some religions and in others it is seen as a good deed that might help get into heaven.

personally I guess i see medicine in both ways, but I wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for medicine which probably goes for many people here. so I can seee the benefit, but I try not to take any medication unless it is necessary, I have a good immune system cause I never take antibiotics to get over anything, just ride it out.

I don't get fanatical about cleaning too much cause having some germs around builds up your immunities, ever notice that people that are obsesive compulsive cleaners are more often sick, I never take panadol for a headache cause placebos do nothing.

Drug company's are some of the lowest forms of business out there so be careful and make sure you have a trust worthy doctorb

I'm just losing myself in thoughts here.

Medicine is a major part of our society these days but is it what was supposed to happen, was anything supposed to happen, are we just part of someone elses reality.

Is medicine just turning into big business, Australia is just about to head down the same road as the USA in terms of healthcare, it's just going to go from one of the best health care systems in the world to private sector bullshit that will be great if you have money but it will deter people who would normally go to a doctor.

maybe someone can make a virtual doctor in AGS, that'll save on some health care and probably be just as effective.

should we try to cure Cancer or HIV/AIDS, maybe these are things that were meant to happen to thin out our numbers, maybe they are teaching us lessons in what not to do and we haven't figured out all the do's and don'ts yet.

now there's some more topics and contradictions etc and the b is for bargain

Interestingly, I saw "Chocolate" on sale in a Catholic bookshop in Zaragoza recently, next to various portrayals of the life of Christ! Choclate didn't attack the religion, rather the "religous" (people). Kevin Smith and Mel Gibson are both practicing Catholics, I believe.

Here's some points on things various people have said:

1. The commandment in the Bible is not to murder, not do not kill. There are of course various legal reasons to kill: self defence being the most generally accepted, death penalty being less accepted and abortion also is contraversial. Personally, I only accept self-defence as legitimate.

2. Harvester, you are now deciding who is a "True Christian (tm)"? I think that its arrogant for any of us to think we have it all 100%. I know what you mean, however.

3. Although there are plenty of bad people who have used Christianity as an exucse for their actions, there are also plenty of people throughout history who have sincerely believed that they were doing God's work by killing the pariah of the day: Witches, Homosexuals, whatever... I am sorry for these things, but my faith is not one that believes in killing people like that, or even attacking them in other ways, as still goes on today.

4. As a Christian, I recognise that I am a long way from perfect and would probably break all my own principles if, say, someone killed my wife or daughter. On the other hand, I believe that I can be forgiven anything if I repent of it and turn to Christ: and so will go to heaven (without any wait in purgatory).

5. If you want to mock Christianity, it is much easier to mock Catholicism with all its weird and wonderful rituals and traditions or alternatrively to mock the happy-clappy "charismatic" protestants.  However, there are plenty of Christian authors who gently mock Christians themselves (e.g. Adrian Plass) becuase we do all do some pretty silly things.

6. Crime rates are higher where capital punishment exists. Fact. It costs more to have someone on death row than to have them in prison for life. Fact. These two facts mean that the death penalty is utterly impractical, never mind the moral issues.

7. Yes, there are some apparent contradictions in the bible. Google will give you a whole pile of web sites about them. It will also throw up rebuttals and rebuttals of rebuttals, etc. It's all been done before, so don't lets waste time repeating it here.

EDIT: fixed some grammar, etc.

Hey,
Yes ArchAngel, it's your name. You got it first. heh heh.
After thinking for 4.67 seconds, I decided I'll change it. It's kinda confusing
This is my last post in this name.

I agree with much of what harvestor says. 'cept the part about capitol punishment(yeah, you guessed it). It's deeper than you think. (I'm not gonna get to deep into it, cuz I don't want write some essay, cuz I'm lazy. But I got some more arguements up my sleeve. really!)
SuperScottishHero pretty much summurizes, The hebrew text is toward murder. sorry dudes.

Also, Pessi. About blind leaders. you're right. So stop construing indivual verses to prove your own point. read the whole text. some verses you quote got nothing to do with what you're trying to prove. It's embarrasing and frustrating.

Crusades? Yikes! where did that come from? Crusades really have nothing to with the bible. It's a dude(aka the pope) who used religion to get his own way. Get an actually arguement before you post it. (all in good intentions)
many contridictions could be due to the readers view, if you look at it another way, it'll fit together. like to non-paralell lines on a graph, there is one point where they intesect.

Evolution(quickie, don't want to change the topic to it) why I don't believe Evolution is that it makes no sense. I can't see how order and law comes from chaos and chance. What about the second law of thermodynamics? science depends on laws and order. evolution depends on chance. It's possible, but aslong as it's not run by chance. Carl Sagan condemned chance, saying there has to be a divine being to guide evolution.

"Now which is more narrow-minded, believing blindly in a 2000 year old revolutionist, or believing in the top few hundred greatest minds of the past few centuries?"
this is pretty much beside the point. You seem to be out of it. just cuz the top minds here believe evolution, does it make it true? I haven't seen one frigg'n convincing arguement. And I'm not being stubborn.

stereotypes(something that's fun to joke with, and something that makes liberals mad): yeah, true, what I said made me fit your stereotype. but then again, I didn't say much, and rest you had to assume. I pretty much believe the bible, and outside of that, I'm a critical thinker. (though it might not sound like that from the posts) If you know me, you'll understand.

It's pretty hard to understand eachother, especially when we think differently. we see the world differently. You say my arguements suck, I say yours suck. Understand? Liberals say conservative crap! conservatives say liberal crap! I personally can't really understand a liberal. They don't make much sense to me.

I don't like seperating christians into groups like that, it's not that simple. Some of course are more liberal and other's more conservative. I try to stick with the bible.

yeah, Superscot--- you got it pretty much. None of us are 100% right.

oh, one last note, "I like the fact that if kids laugh at you you can pray and god will send bears to kill them."
Actually it was a gang threatening to kill the dude. But it'll hecka sic' if those bears busted out all matrix-style.

oh, the  really last note, it could be cheaper for death row than life in prison. Bullet to head! that's cheap! but, yeah, I get you're point.  I can still argue for capital punishment, but it'll be big, you'll have to understand a lot.  I could also challenge the crime rate vs. capital punishment. I'm saying it's true, but there are alot of factors that affect these studies. Also, there are the validity of the studies and such. I'm kinda bred a scientist.

Ultimately last note, catholicism appears to be christianity which holds on to rituals and even some idoltry. yes, perfect mocking ground. should make up there mind. Not being offensive, got a lot of catholics in my family.

Crap! another huge post! If I offended any of you, sorry. not ment to be. I'm being alittle sharper than my usual self. Don't worry about offending me, I offend myself (I'm not implying anything).

 :-\

While the main post wasn't a bad topic it seems to have moved on to a religious vs non religious, death penalty vs rehab, and even partly an evolution vs somethingelse and a conservative vs liberal type argument.  It often happens.. I'm sure everyone's seen them before, it's hardly ever a debate or interesting discussion unless it's very controlled.. so I think it's best to stop unless you have something really useful and interesting to add rather than each person stating their position on something and saying all the others are stupid ._.

And it'd be easy to start going on about what I think.. because usually we have stong beliefs about stuff like this, but I'm not going to of course :)

i've got to say when i started this post i never imagined it would stir up such strong feeling, I can’t say I agree with all that’s been said, but I have to admire the strength of some people’s conviction, and It goes to show people will take time and effort to stand up for what they believe


woodz

my king james version of the bible says thou shalt not kill...doesn't say thou shalt not murder.... ???

Angel85: most of what you say are good arguments. However, the point about the law of thermodynamics... you CAN get order out of chaos, IF you put energy into a system. Where does that energy come from? The sun, of course! A bloody huge thermonuclear power plant on our doorstep. So of course, evolution makes perfect sense, if you take religion out of the picture and reason it through.

Yeah, this kinda got out of control :-) But then again, for such a sensitive subject, I think this was a pretty nice discussion. If you check evolution vs. creation forums, you'll see what I'm talking about. Good think it happens in cyberspace, otherwise those guys would have killed each other :-)

I guess there's a difference between faith and religion. Religion is rituals outside and faith is in the heart.  Faith doesn't need to be directed by someone but the self, and religion is directed by books and other people. I guess Jesus promoted faith and not religion. I guess because I never met Jesus and couldn't  because he lived so long ago.  I can't say anything for certain. I guess that religion and faith mix in most cases but in many people they are separate. My grandmother is religious but I doubt she believes because she would never give me 13 of a thing and looked at horoscopes and wouldn't let me whistle. She believed in all those little signs like black cayts walking across the street and walking under a ladder and that is kind of against what the bible says... My adopted Great Grandmother, rest her soul, deeply believed in the heart. She didn't care about the silly number 13, it was just like any other number for her. She wore her cross underneath her clothes because she didn't wan't to anounce to everybody - "see, I'm a deeply religious woman", I never saw her pray but I know she did because her prayer-book looked worn and I saw the book grow old with her.  She told off a girl in my town for preaching to children because, she said " true faith is in the heart and not on your lips". Before she died she said that she was going home. She never actually said heaven. She never preached to me either.

Okay, this topic has been done before, many times, but for old time's sake, here goes.

I've said this so many time in so many forms. Faith is good because it gives a person hope, strength, etc., etc. Religion can go either way. In my own personal experiences, the Christian religion is hypcritical (I'll give reasons below) at times. But, on the OTHER hand, there is some good in organized religion. Some people find comfort in it, and there is nothing wrong with it. It's just that some of us pay attention only to the extreme fundamentalists that picket outside schools protesting the entry of a gay student. That's just sick,stupid, and pathetic.

However, there are level-headed fundamentalists, and that's great. You gotta understand that the extremists give the rest of you nice people a bad name! :)

Now, as for hypocrisy (as well as just plain idiocy) in my [former] religion, here goes:

Masturbation is a sin. If you believe this, you're an idiot. Plain and simple.
Premarital sex is a sin. Some people might not want to have sex before marriage. For some it's relgious. For others, it's a personal choice. Letting religion define your personal life shouldn't happen. If you don't want to do something, do it because YOU say it's wrong, not because others say it's wrong. I am a firm believer is not letting others define your own morals for you.

I'm really too tired to think of any more. Sorry for this half-assed argument. :)

It's me ArchAngel85. I'm not running... yet.   ;D
So many people taking my names... I wanted "bean"(a character in my game I'm making) but noooooo somebody took it. So, here's my name!

True, the sun provides us with energy, that's why we live. Yes, Gibbs free energy. It has to be negative unless to be spontaneous. But where the sun get it's energy? when you look back to the beginning of time, gee, where did everything come from? It's boggling. And I know about the Big Bang, but it still doesn't explain enough.
True, tho, I will say that many anti-evolution arguements are kinda lame (embarrasly) but there are some good ones too. I can't help but getting the feeling that evolution is gonna die out like the geocentric theory. I could be wrong tho.

Yes, alot of "fundies" make up there own rules, say that they are God's and enforce them. That bugs the crap out of me.

No person defines morals. They are absolute. It's in their very nature. How can something be "wrong" if anyone can say it's "right." Maybe we're talking about different things.
Many of the morals that we fundies hold up is hard to understand until you understand our worldview.

Sasha, I would agree with you on religion and faith, sorta. Christianity, I would say, is NOT a religion, but a faith. It's clear in the bible, though many people change it. I use the term "religion" so you would understand better, though I cringe everytime. Okay, not everytime. Rituals have nothing to do with Christianity... They're toast. though I would disagree about the "faith in the hearts, not on the lips." I would argue that if you really believe something, how can you hide it? Forcing a religion on some one, now, bad stuff. it would only be religion, never faith.

Some of you may know this now, and others might get it later, that I'm obsessed with Truth. I'm not much for relativity, unless in science theories. (e.g. my theory of spectral relativity. we're not gonna go there). Sometimes I'm close-minded when I'm sure I got a hold on it, and I'm open-minded when I think I don't. People have a right to their opinion, but it doesn't make it right. just for you guys to understand a little better on what I talk about.

And yeah, we would have like stuffed eachother full of lead.

Crap, another big post. *slapping myself*

Ugh ._. please end now.
I'd gladly conceed evolution and all the rest was crap and give up all my scientific knowledge if it would end online christian vs evolution arguments :(
Go to some origins flamewar forum, this is not what the topic was about.

yeah i agree scotch, i can't even remember i i sed to begin with!
flower arranging? no wasn't that..... knittin?? nope...
feckit

scrolls back and gets lost..

Quote from: scotch on Wed 14/05/2003 08:07:11
Ugh ._. please end now.

Alright heh heh.

QuoteThe commandment in the Bible is not to murder, not do not kill.

Actually, it's "Thou shalt not kill". For reassurance, check out http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm , for example.

I won't get back to my arguments concerning ArchAngel85 mostly because everyone's tired of this discussion, and on the other hand, because he has a point. I'm in no place to argue, cause I don't have it figured out either.

Back to the drawing board. ;D

where all gay!!!  :o

Pessi: what I believe should be criticized first and foremost would be religion as a social construction. The need to believe in something higher is something most people convinietly forget to question. Anything you build on uncertain foundation in bound to topple over at some point. Fucking animals that like to make up stories to fill the gaps in their experience and knowledge.

I have no beef with christian morality. But I do not like it when people consider it the model of civilization can call all that do not abide by it heathens and uncivilized.

Gospels. Love. Don't kill. Whatever. There's millions of ethical systems one could adopt and live by. There's no need to put a God in there at all. The only reason people do that, is when theirs clashes with the morality of the next person. My God is going to beat up your God! Instead of promoting tolerance, we're measuring our divine penii.

uh, Helm, you probably saw this coming if you read my posts.
I disagree.
That's YOUR view on things. That man is the measure.
Christian's don't believe in a God cuz we want to feel superiour and such. We believe it cuz it's what we know to be true. It may seem arrogant, until you look at it diffentely
Things are more different than you think...
There's no hat'n going on here...

And yes, I'm getting tired... and very busy. Finals are coming up.

It's a good thing I didnt read your posts, then. Read that last one by accident too. Promise it won't happen again.

I never read long threads, and for that, I am glad.

Quote from: Pessi on Thu 15/05/2003 17:44:23

QuoteThe commandment in the Bible is not to murder, not do not kill.

Actually, it's "Thou shalt not kill". For reassurance, check out http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm , for example.

Actually, no, by your own site:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9874.htm

Picks up all religious artefacts and locks them in a bulletproof box and seals it in concrete

Dusts of the ceremonial alter and wait for some words of wisdom from CJ or anyone to stop this madness before someone defines murder or kill! One of those sexy padlocks will do  :P

Religion is a very sticky subject, especially discussing it on a forum where all sorts of people from around the world congregate who come from many different cultural backgrounds. It's a subject where people can get upset rather quickly (and the moderator eye can see possible friction building up in here soon), so please play nice folks.

Quote from: Robert Eric on Fri 16/05/2003 11:44:16
I never read long threads, and for that, I am glad.

Me neither. And why I write them... I have no idea.

And why am I saying this.... I have no idea.

Am I gonna play nice... I have no-- okay. I'll try.

OK, you win, SuperScottishHero.  :P

I'm actually glad to be proved wrong. New information is never for bad. But on the other hand, it doesn't really change the way I would act. I do not want to kill in any circumstances, no matter what it's called; murdering, homicide, euthanasia... To me, they're just different expressions. Although, I do understand the differences.

But anyway, thanks for pointing it out!

Quote from: MonsterSasha on Sat 10/05/2003 14:15:48
Tell me what is the "offencive" thing. It might not be offencive at all, and Odysseus Kent (Yahtzee's last game) has some things in it that might have been offencive to religion. It might not be offencive at all. One teacher in a school where people were primarily muslim made a rule that no one can display pictures of pigs publicaly or read "three little pigs" out loud. She ended up offending the muslims because while they can't eat pork they can look at pigs and read about them and the teacher offended them because she didn't know that.  There is such a thing as too politicaly correct.

there are no rules that say you can't eat pork if you're a muslim. my neighbours are muslims and they said they chose not to eat it because they think it's hygenic not to. that's all.

i thoughts jews couldnt eat pork

Neither can (if they're practicing).

It's considered unhygenic because pigs don't chew the cud.

Then again, it's like Christianitys old Fish on a Friday rule. It's waned, and whether it becomes rule or tradition ends up with the individual.

cud? I thought it was b/c the had hoofs. Oh well, I dont know as much about other religions as I ought to.

about the fish thing, I am almost positive thats just a catholic thing, as all other members of christian faiths that I know, (including me) dont have any special friday rule

wasn't the fish on friday just a sceme to help the fishing industry back in the day?

no, i think it has to do with Jesus supposidly being killed on a friday, and a day of sarfrafice and such. I might be wrong...prehaps a catholic can correct me?

always makes me laff but people go to church on sundays... drive to the pub for lunch after the service then drive home pissed up, biggets or what! ;)

woodz

Panda-Cows have hooves as well, as do sheep, but no one hears of them refusing to eat beef or mutton.

*sigh*
Both the Jewish and the Muslim don't eat pork because both the religions originated in places with a very hot climate. In these places pigs often carry certain deadly diseases and worms. And pigs take mud baths too so they are dirty and damn unhygenic.

Yeah, that's basically the reason.. they were considered unclean (literally) like rats, snakes and insects because they filtered out less disease than animals with double stomachs ._.

It was just a common sense rule adopted into their religious rules.. now I guess it's part of the sacrifice of being religious, or something like that.

I dig Buddhism -- although I don't practise it, I've studied a lot of it since high school.

The thing I like most of all is that every statue of Buddha you see, he's smiling and happy and got his shit together.

Meanwhile, you look at Jesus -- hanging on the cross, looking miserable and thinking, "Man, it sucks up here! And I have to come back to life in a couple of days! Being the Messiah is like sooo depressing!"

That's about as deep as you'll get from me at this time of night.

May not be deep, but that's an awesomely potent observation DG.

las-you are correct. I just thought I read something about feet in leviticus once...I guess I was wrong

Plus Buddha condoned eating spoiled food...

yeah... and that's how he died too.
And he never ever looked like those statues. They're made up.

ya know... about Jesus... I'm not even sure I want to explain this and all...
I'm in a state of shock...

Fish on friday? Whaaaa? Yikes! Though fish is good, but, if it's a religious thing, sounds like a catholic thing. all those stupid rituals. (not to be offensive to any catholics... I have many in my family, so it's sorta my right...) I never heard of that.

Quote from: Paladin on Tue 20/05/2003 03:02:21
yeah... and that's how he died too.
And he never ever looked like those statues. They're made up.

Yeah -- but my point is it's a happier religion than Christianity.

I'm sure Christ also doesn't look the way he does crucified in paintings and movies -- If I were in that position, I'd be screaming in pain an agony, while he just seems too calm about the whole thing.

Quote from: Paladin on Tue 20/05/2003 03:02:21
ya know... about Jesus... I'm not even sure I want to explain this and all...
I'm in a state of shock...

Fish on friday? Whaaaa? Yikes! Though fish is good, but, if it's a religious thing, sounds like a catholic thing. all those stupid rituals. (not to be offensive to any catholics... I have many in my family, so it's sorta my right...) I never heard of that.

But the strange thing is instead we eat chocolate eggs delivered by a rabbit.

Well of course he wasn't fat, the technicalities of the middle path prevent that, the fatness is symbolic of contentness.


On the Fish on a friday note, there used to be Beavers in Britain (no shit). But as they swam, they must be fish right? right???

Well, no, but it was used as an excuse to have red meat on a Friday, and they were hunted to extinction.

The reason Budha is always happy is because Budhism has a wonderful phylosophy- people are made unhappy by wanting. If you don't want anything then you're a one happy chappy.

Quote from: DGMacphee on Tue 20/05/2003 04:14:48
[But the strange thing is instead we eat chocolate eggs delivered by a rabbit.

hey cool, so you can see the bunny too?! ;)

*rocks back 'n' forth, waiting for "the voices" to stop arguing.*

i can't recall anyone following the no fish on friday thing, catholics or other wise :-\, then again we are probably just heathens in the north east of england

QuoteMeanwhile, you look at Jesus -- hanging on the cross, looking miserable and thinking, "Man, it sucks up here! And I have to come back to life in a couple of days! Being the Messiah is like sooo depressing!"

*everybody sing....always look on the bright side of life ...do .do ..doooo.....life a piece of shit...when you think of it, lifes a laff and death's a joke its true....*

sorry i had a moment with flash backs! no offence intended :D

woodz

Quote from: DGMacphee on Tue 20/05/2003 04:14:48
Yeah -- but my point is it's a happier religion than Christianity.

I would disagree, but I'm too tired to argue. I doubt you have enough proof to stand by a claim like that. But, whatever.


Also, but come on, it's no fun if you don't want anything! major boring. But I would agree, greed, envy, blah blah blah do cause alot of superfluous stress.

I'm gonna bring some points about happines. This is not my faith, but just stuff I'm pulling up. I'm not even sure I agree with some of them, I'm just blathering.

-Don't those people who are always stupid happy ever annoy you?

-Pain and suffering do bring strength. There not all that bad.

-Can you trully appreciate happiness if you never felt pain?

-What makes happiness so good? Isn't it a state where you are content where you are? progress depressent.

-happiness can often blind yourself to reality you.

-Not all in this world deserve a response of happiness.

As I said, I'm just pulling these out, some of them aren't my viewpoint.
I'm really tired now.

Quote from: Paladin on Tue 20/05/2003 09:01:50

Quote from: DGMacphee on Tue 20/05/2003 04:14:48
Yeah -- but my point is it's a happier religion than Christianity.

I would disagree, but I'm too tired to argue. I doubt you have enough proof to stand by a claim like that. But, whatever.


Also, but come on, it's no fun if you don't want anything! major boring. But I would agree, greed, envy, blah blah blah do cause alot of superfluous stress.

I'm gonna bring some points about happines. This is not my faith, but just stuff I'm pulling up. I'm not even sure I agree with some of them, I'm just blathering.

-Don't those people who are always stupid happy ever annoy you?

-Pain and suffering do bring strength. There not all that bad.

-Can you trully appreciate happiness if you never felt pain?

-What makes happiness so good? Isn't it a state where you are content where you are? progress depressent.

-happiness can often blind yourself to reality you.

-Not all in this world deserve a response of happiness.

As I said, I'm just pulling these out, some of them aren't my viewpoint.
I'm really tired now.

I have no proof that would convince you, Paladin -- It's merely a subjective opinion, which I base upon symbols of worship (Statues of Buddha and Jesus on the cross).

I have enough proof that convinces me of my own preference, which leans toward buddhism.

I'm not trying to start a debate on which is the better religion.

As for true happiness, I have my own ideas upon this, but I don't think you'd accept them.

Therefore, I prefer not to publish them as I feel content in my knowledge.

When doubt comes, I ask a question, as you have done.

But I know you won't get any great philosophical meaning-of-life answers to your questions from me, which is why I won't answer them here on this board.

Religion is like a gun. It's essentially a great thing, but it should never be used against anybody.

a gun is essentially a great thing ?

actually, religion is more like a public toilet. it stinks.

Religion is like a name. Idiots are idiots, racists are racists, and putzes are putzes regardless of what their names are.

 ::)
Honestly, anyone can worship anything, even a  fork  (http://itkid.com/fig.htm).

I normally try not to get involved in religious threads but what the hell?  I was raised very Christian.  I found it too be a bit too much "Holier-than-thou" and too little in the substance department.  However, I don't hate Christians ... as long as they don't F with me.  And there is the basic tenant of my belief system: Don't screw with others - try not to do crap that'll mess up other people if you can help it.

BTW, wasn't this topic about whether or not to include potentially offensive religious content in a game?  It's been done before; with subtlety and not-so-much.  I say go for it if it's in keeping with your game's plot, just put a disclaimer/warning in the readme.txt and/or game announcement and nobody shouldn't be offended that doesn't deserve to be.  

To hell with PC.

Quote from: Scid on Tue 20/05/2003 15:24:18
Religion is like a gun. It's essentially a great thing...

Guns cool. me like'm. Nobody dare take away my second amendment right!
though I don't own a gun...
actually, it's just power. In the right hands, it saves, wrong hands, murders. (NOTE: not to start another topic)

Haha... now you can stereotype me as a Right-Wing militaristic fundamentalist! Bring it!

And yeah, about "religiously offensive content," i don't know. I played Odyseuss Kent and was not offended. (oh, and you guys don't offend me, I just get heated... that's me, tho)
I'd say it's better to include content that shows flaws, like hypocrisy, but never go bashing. It doesn't go anywhere.
And don't stereoptype, like say all pastors are (fill in the blank), but maybe show that some are, but that doesn't need to be the case. But know what you are doing be for you do it. It's a touchy subject.

Hey religon is cool, it gives the hopeless hope, and as long as no boody fanatics comes knocking at my door asking if i have seen the light, im cool with them.

note: if you want to get rid of them, challange them to a duel then draw a sword and wave it around like a feather duster.

P.S. Buddism Rules, even if u aint buddist, u get into nirvana.(u have to be bloody good though)

A couple of Mormans from America came to my Door in stereotypical fashion a few months ago and I tries to tell them about the movie Orgasmo by Trey Parker and Matt Stone, but they hadn't heard of it.  Well I didn't mention the name of it, I just wanted to know if they had heard of Trey and Matt.

They hadn't but had heard of South Park.

I had some friends at school that were Mormans and they didn't come across any differently to anyone else and didn't try to force their religion on you. different from door to door pushers, but I think that is something they have to do as Mormans at some time, I'm not sure

One of my best friends is Studying Theology and it's interesting to talk with him, he knows alot about many religions, It's good to have a discussion with someone that has different views to you but similar morals.
This guy also quit his $50,000 a year job straight out of Uni after passing top of his course with his scholarship Also finishing Year 12 with a TER of 99.65 (NSW score from early 90's  I don't even know what the system is now)
If I had this guys brain, I wouldn't be wasting it and earning hardly anything by choice, but you've got to hand it to him for following his heart, instead of becoming a millionaire at an early age he will feel better by saving people.

I can talk about religion with religious people I know, but nothing has convinced me so far, I think that is the point, you just have to believe without really knowing what's out there. blind faith might be the right term.

but at the end of the day no one knows, there is no way to know, you can just choose to believe or not, even then there is still doubt even within people that say they have no doubt.

We are probably just here, there is probably no reason for it, it's just a crazy phenomenon, a couple of atoms in the right place at the right time, or some god failing in chemistry. either way it probably won't be known in my life, or in death???

The guitarist in my band is Mormon, but a year ago he left to do his Mormon missionary deal.  He'll be back in a year.  I have very conflicting feelings about it.  On the one hand, I don't particularly like the idea of them going door-to-door (or whatever they do) in an attempt to convert people.  On the other hand, it's hard to really fault them TOO much since they really do think they're doing the right thing and they're not actually harming anyone besides being annoying.  He's never tried to convert any of our friends or criticised our beliefs, and we're a group consisting of a Catholic, a Jew, an atheist, and several agnostics (sounds like the setup to a stupid joke).  The Mormon religion is certainly one of the stranger Christian sects, and I'm not sure what to make of it.  They tend to get a bad rap for being overbearing, and I have indeed met a few who fall into that description, but most of the ones I've met seem quite accomodating.

My ancestor was excommunicated from the Mormon church in NSW for marrying a non Mormon. I don't think that was official policy even then, but they did it anyway.

Timosity-Little pointless facts, the TER became the UAI (University Admissions Index) which instead of being measured against all who did the HSC is measured againsted your entire Year 10 year, so everyone who dropped out has the lowest UAIs, and all most numbers are higher as a result.

i'm a mormon.

las, yeah, that isnt policy. my uncle maried a no-mormon. we do it all the time here.

I kinda wodner why we get such a bad rap most of the time. I mean, there was no mormon inquisision. We never killed anybody, or were jerks, or tried to establish some holy empire. Sure, going door to door might be annoying to some people, but, all you have to do is ask us nicely to leave.

ALso, I plan on serving a mission when I turn 19. It isnt all about conversion, but also about sevice, (ex. I can go someplace to work and to help others). When you look at it that way, it isnt so bad. Sorta like a two year stint with the peace corps, only with a heavy religous slant.  and if people dont want to hear it, thats cool. We leave. I think it would be pretty cool if I end up being called some place like england or australia, (two places with a lot of AGSers,), and end up running into a few of you. that would be weird.


oh, timmy, whats the relationship between mormons and south park? I know the creators cant be mormon.

Mr. Panda, it's to do with a movie they made, where Trey Parker was a Morman doing his door to door thing and ended up on a porno set, It was actually a really funny movie and there was no nudity in the whole thing.

He even stayed true to his faith, well I think, I can't remember the ending.

Hey Mr. Panda
u seem cool, if u ever get to melbourn, tell me, i can show u around.
as for mormans getting a bad rap. it not that you dont leave when we say no, it  the fact that your like people who ring you up on the phone and ask if you have a minute to fill in a questionair or if u have cable TV or somthing. they always call at a realy bad time, and so often you get sick of it intill u say "give me your home number and i will call you when u dont want me to".
(by the use of the word you and your, i mean followers of your religon who go door knocking)

timostiy, now that you mention it...I have heard of that. plus, I think one of the makers of south park married a mormon or something, and then divorced her. they make jokes about mormons a lot.


like this one time, it showed heaven and hell, and all the priests were going to hell. one of them goes, "just for fun, which religion WAS right?"

and the dude in hell goes "lemme check.....ah! here it is! mormon! that was the answer!"

then it pans to heaven, and all the girls in pioneer dresses and missionary guys with bike helmets are all dancing around...


well, I thought it was funny

Just my comments..
I'm a Christian, and it says in the Bible, quite clearly, that even if we disagree with people, we are to respect their beliefs. Also, we are not to force beliefs on anybody. Another thing that it says in the Bible is that becoming a Christian is a choice, and that a Christian must accept Jesus into his heart on his own free will.
Just some comments I thought that I'd throw in there.
Also, as with people going door to door, just tell them that you're not interested and close the door. Besides, pretty much none of the Protestant denominations do that anyway. I think that calling people or going to their door and trying to force the gospel on people isn't at all what God wants us to do. We're supposed to just politely inform people of Jesus, and it's up to them from there on.
Some people seem to go a little too far, though.

woodz final thoughts.....

First I gotta do this…..”YAAAAAAHOOOOOOOOO 100 REPLIES!!!”

OK sorry about that, going by all the comments it goes to show religion in whatever shape or form, plays a part in everyone’s life be it whether they believe or not., and spans throughout a full range of age groups

So in response to my initial question, the game will include a faceless religion that will relate to the issues most people dislike with every faith, the character will be a preacher door to door ;D

woodz

Our door-to-door protestants are nice people. We talk to them. They don't push faith on us. They are immigrants just like us. What I hate is people who go door to door selling gym memberships and car services and those annoing catalogs that you have to give back and if you accidentaly trow it away those salespeople give you HELL. What would you rather have - a person pressuring you to get fox or a person who you can have a nice chat with? I would prefer the later, they are much easier to get to piss off.

Most unwelcome people knocking on my door kinda pisses me off, there’s nothing worse than been knocked out of bed on a Sunday by three neatly pressed suits, clenching briefcases, smiling at me like I’m their best friend, they normally get a grunt and “not interested”, why do they never come later on in the day?  I’d be more likely to “toy with their minds” my late father in law was a master at it!
I treat people as I find them, we lived in a street with five Jehovah families, we got on fine, they when the nicest people in the world and never once tried to push there religion, but we also had a friend who was targeted after a bereavement and they really screwed her mind up.
We will believe what we want to believe, I personally don’t believe in any religion, and I don’t need any good guy badges to say prove and justify that I’m a descent person, I’ll help anyone, and treat people with respect, if they are prepared to do the same.

Ok nuff sed time to do what this forums about.. lets build games!

woodz

Actually, this reminds me of a story, and it's 100% TRUE too:

A friend of mine from high school who was this complete stoner and drunk had a visit from some Jehovah's Witnesses. So, he feels like a bit of fun and invites them in. They're going through the whole routine with that pamphlets and everything. He there nodding his head going, "Oh yeah? Wow! That sounds interesting!"

They continue on for 2 minutes when he flicks to a page on the pamphlet with one of those pictures of everything looking serene for heaven: A happy family dressed nicely, standing in a garden with a couple of animals like rabbits, squirrels, tigers, and pandas. Everything looking very happy in heaven. He pipes up, "Hey, how come the pandas don't get eaten by the tigers?" THe JWs reply that it's heaven and no one gets eaten there. "Come on! Tigers get hungry no matter where they are! You'd think they'd probably even eat one of the squirrels! You can't fight animal nature, even in heaven!" By the JWs reply saying it's heaven and nothing bad happens.

He nods for a second then asks the JWs to excuse him for a minute, there's something he has to do. They nods saying it's okay. He slowly starts taking off all his clothing. The JWs just look at one another while he strips down nicky-nude. He sits back on his couch and reclines in the nuddy. He looks at botht he JWs and says, "Don't worry! I do this all the time!"

The JWs just look at each other again and go, "Sorry, we have to go! Bye!" And they leave.

When he told me this, I thought it was the most beautiful story ever!

OKay, since this seems to be on-topic now...   I had frequent Mormon visitors while living in base housing.  They stopped coming shortly after I used masking tape to make a police-style body outline on my sidewalk with a large masking-tape cross in the middle.  

Messing with them I don't approve of:  My neighbors were ultra-religious Southern Baptists.   They've told my kids they were going to hell for playing Pokemon due to the fact that it's "akin to witchcraft."  They would also call Mormon churches and tell them they were interested in hearing about their faith.  When the poor 18-19 year old kids would show up at their door, they'd invite them in, discuss theology and tell them a dozen reasons why their religion was sinful.

My wife used to get JW visitors from time to time.  She finally got tired to trying to be polite when asking them to leave.  One day, she bought a dildo and placed it in her pants, hanging out of the zipper.  She managed to keep a straight face and have normal conversation with them.  They didn't stay too long and didn't come back again.  

Basically, I feel that if I have any interest in someone's religion, I'll check out their church, website or ask a friend who is of that religion.  I don't wanna be bugged at home by 'em, or have pamphlets thrust into my hands in the airport [I wonder if I can figure out how to make an origami penis?].