Hello everyone.
I am giving some serious thought to relocating to London. I currently live in the U.S. and I'm just interested in doing some research right now. Kind of a Phase One.
I am also interested in hearing from anyone who has moved from their native country to another. I believe Layabout moved from Australia to the UK, so if you are reading this your opinions would mean a great deal.
Some things I am curious about:
1. Renting an apartment - cost, neighborhood, and things to be aware of, I understand that the real estate industry is a little shocking for us Americans.
2. Jobs - While my dream is not to move to London and work at McDonalds, I am willing to do just that if need be. I'm curious about low wage jobs and if one is able to survive on them in London. (keeping in mind that I am a college student and Ramen Noodles still taste good to me)
3. Citizenship - What do you know, how hard is it to get? If I knock up my girlfriend can we stay if our kid is born there?
Those are currently my primary interests. I have ordered two books and will probably be able to ask more specific questions in the future. For now I'm just looking for some general information and advice.
A note: From Americans, I'm really interested in any positive information you may be able to provide. If you have negative information please keep it to yourself. I have found an abnormal amount of anti-relocation propaganda regarding leaving our good ol' America. From our European (and hopefully Londoners) I am actually somewhat interested in hearing you complain. Mostly I'm interested in negative things you may have to say about everyday life in London. You know things like, "They only have one flavor of Ramen Noodles in the whole country!"
Thanks in advance. I will try to update this thread as I learn more and make progress. This is something I intend on doing in a couple of years. I want to be sure I know what I'm getting myself into here.
Thanks again,
-junc
No negative feedback from this yank ...
First off, good to "see" you again man!
About moving to England: I actually considered it a few years back. I wanted to experience life in another country and England seemed the easiest fit. It's exciting to consider and I hope you do it! It's funny 'cause if one of my "real world" friends wanted to move I'd try and talk him out of it (for selfish reasons) 'cause I wouldn't want him to go. But I can read your posts just as effectively if you type them from another country as if you type them from here!
So while I can't offer any practical advice and/or information I will just say I'm excited for you and wish you best of luck!
London is probably the most expensive place to live in the UK. The UK is among the most expensive places in Europe to live. Dunno how well you'd manage to live on a minimum-wage job there, but plenty of people seem to manage it. Probably won't be much fun though.
I've looked into this intermittently over past few years, and discovered it is really quite difficult as an American to move anywhere really.
For instance, I wanted to move to the UK or someplace in Europe for adventure and for being close to dear friends (thanks to AGS and a couple other internet communities, the number of what I consider to be close friends outside of the US nearly triple those within), but unless you are a grandson/daughter of a native, have an employment sponsor, or are marrying somebody from that country, it is exceedingly difficult for a person of American citizenship to move
anywhere abroad.
Additionally, from what I have seen of UK visa requirements, any employer you might tantalise has to prove that they could not find a British person to fill that position, then a worker from any EU countries if they are to hire anyone from anywhere else. Please note that this information is from what I have gleaned over a few years of research, most not being extremely recent, and may have changed.
If visiting the UK for example, as a non-student or similar, your passport stamp specifically states that you are barred from employment, cannot receive public funds, and cannot stay for longer than six months at a time. As an American, you are also unable to enter the working holiday scheme, which is open to Australians, Canadians. persons from various African and Asian countries, but not the US :/
Quote from: juncmodule on Sun 08/07/2007 02:38:20
If I knock up my girlfriend can we stay if our kid is born there?
Yes, I think, so long as she is British. If you are taking your American girlfriend there, then I am inclined to say it would likely not result in citizenship, though I haven't researched that avenue.
It depends on what you want to do in the foreign country. Moving abroad for the sake of it is not a bright idea if you are under 65 years of age (in my opinion).
I try to move abroad as well, but as I don't care about citizenship, I focus on employment chances, which seem to be slim, if you just go there and ask for a job, even with EU projects for job mobility (I'm in Greece). Not only in the UK but in EU in general.
You might want to find a job first and worry about appartments and citizenship later. There are many international companies where it seems safe to apply to. I wouldn't abandon everything for a company that proves to be on the verge of bancruptsy or illegal or that they find out that they don't need a new employee after all.
Big, international companies may agree to hire you for a local position and then send you to their offices at the country you want to go (so you avoid possible employment obstacles in the UK) , but you have to work for them in the US for a while, I suppose.
There are are online services like your CV online of the EU official site (or similar british sites), but it's your responsibility to get a job.
If you still want to go there and work at McDonalds, as you said, I think you'd better start saving, for an average of 3-4 salaries plus travel and appropriate documents expenses will be really helpful, if you are not good at juggling fire on a monocycle or playing saxo at the London tube.
Christina, I'm not sure that job chances are slim. Not at least in the UK. I've been in London for 3 years (yes, as a student), but I've had plenty of chances to work. My wife who was here as a professional architect found a job the first month of living here (actually the first ten days).
My impression of London, is that all jobs chnage really quickly and there is always need for people to work. It all comes down to what job of course, but... Teaching and architecture are fine, as I see it. (and I'm Greek too).
Then again Greece is in the EU, so there are no citizenship problems, or many bank problems (one of the main starting problems in the UK. How to open a damn bank account when you first move in. You can't just go there and open an account. You need, either, a school, or a job... OR get a really really bad bank account).
On the questions:
1. London is hugely expensive. I live in a 2 bedroom flat + a very smal room for my equipment, and 2 baths and give 2000$ per month. I'm away from any tube station, thus when leaving the house, we have to either drive or take a bus (which is close by at least), but we are also in Zone 4! Zone 4= 15-20 Miles from the centre of London. For studio you need around 1000$ I'd say, but of course it depends on where you live. You can always find a dirty little room, with shared toilet and kitchen for 600-700$ somewhere... Or share a flat...
2. Low wage jobs? There are also the tax credits and general help from the goverment... But low wage jobs won't keep you happy or alive. I mean if you are to come here and not have enough money to go to a pub, once a week, why come in the first place? Chance jobs like Tescos, or IKEA come at around 5-6£ an hour, I think. x8 hours, x5 a week you get a resonable ammount, but it's a death job!
3. Citizenship I don't know. Again we are Greek, but when my wife (partner, it's the same in the UK, nobody cares if you'#re married or not) got pregnant they invited us to give birth to the child here. We just chose to go to Athens... But Idon't know if it's the same overseas...
Quote from: Nikolas on Sun 08/07/2007 08:02:48
I'm not sure that job chances are slim. Not at least in the UK.
It's my experience of people (of different qualifications) who went to the UK and came back within 18 months. I think it always depends on the job. Moving abroad with nothing to start is not always a wise move. The ones that I know and that are still living there arrived either as students or as stagiaire for a company. Or they had family there who helped them find a job or even hired them.
Then, again, if you just want to go abroad for the experience and you don't care if your job is worse and less well paid than the one you have now, you can just move and see what happens (which I wouldn't do).
Unemployement is harsh enough in one's own country, I wouldn't like to know what it means to be starving abroad.
That's why I said you have to have at least 3 months' salary plus tickets to start with.
I guess it goes down to the people, or the specific situations. But after 18 months I wouldn't imagine that it's the lack of job that got them to leave. I would assume, that they just got what they needed and left. Same with me. 3 years here, another 1-2 years and I'm back to Greece I guess (unless something fantstic comes along here or elsewhere). Doesn't mean that they "failed" or couldn't find a proper job, or whatever. Just that the time went by and they came back to their homes...
Either way, it all comes down to why you want to do it. I always thought to myself that if I am to leave the country, it will be either to study or work making a career. (I'm doing both right now :D). Someone else might feel that leaving, just leaving, is enough. No need and they'll solve everything...
3.
Now that I think of it, I was chatting with esper that he wanted to leave the States, and he was telling me that it is difficult to do so, not because UK won't let you stay, but because USA won't let you leave. :-\
not kidding, Brighton is way better than London.
Quote"good to "see" you again man!"
Same. Thanks for the good luck wishes, from the other replies it looks like I'm going to need it!
QuoteDunno how well you'd manage to live on a minimum-wage job there, but plenty of people seem to manage it. Probably won't be much fun though.
It can't be any worse than many of the situations I've been in here. But good to hear that some folks are able to do it. (YAY POSITIVE!)
QuoteI've looked into this intermittently over past few years, and discovered it is really quite difficult as an American to move anywhere really.
It is actually quite frightening to me that it "seems" so difficult. I really just don't believe it. I think it is propaganda. I think that there is just a trick to it.
QuoteIf you are taking your American girlfriend there, then I am inclined to say it would likely not result in citizenship
I actually wiki'd this one, and you are correct. If she is not British - no citizenship.
QuoteIt depends on what you want to do in the foreign country.
I am fleeing what I consider to be a hostile political environment. I live in a great deal of fear from my government and I do not see the future to hold much good for Americans. I have some pretty radical political views (radical as far as certain Americans are concerned) and I just don't think I will ever be at home here.
QuoteI think you'd better start saving
A huge part of why I am calling this "Phase One" and giving it a few years is just because of saving. I expect to at least require one years wages in order to pull this off. In addition to any money for paperwork fees, the actual flight over (I'm actually considering taking a cruise and just not coming back, teehee), and whatever else may come up.
QuoteI mean if you are to come here and not have enough money to go to a pub, once a week, why come in the first place?
I don't drink.
QuoteFor studio you need around 1000$ I'd say, but of course it depends on where you live.
I've lived in some pretty rough neighborhoods. I would be looking for something between "I don't get shot on this street" and "It gots 4 walls!"
Quotemany bank problems
I've actually read a little about this. Job - Apartment - Bank Account - each require one or more of the other to get the other. One of the books I ordered is supposed to cover how to handle this. I went for my first few years in this city without a bank account. Check Cashing lines...mmmm....fun.
Quotenot because UK won't let you stay, but because USA won't let you leave.
Let's hope so. That would eliminate the citizenship problem. I would just apply for political asylum or something. heh.
QuoteUnemployment is harsh enough in one's own country, I wouldn't like to know what it means to be starving abroad.
Trust me, starving in the US sucks just as much as in the UK. I don't have any family here so it really wouldn't make a difference.
Quotenot kidding, Brighton is way better than London.
Honestly, the main reason I have picked London is because anything official I need to get done I can do right there. I won't have to worry about traveling across the country to get some stupid paper signed.
Employment and Citizenship issues aren't "actual" concerns of mine. I was just curious about what people thought of them. I have several different avenues I can pursue for both of these things. Some of them related. Education being at the top of that list. Since I'm in college I may be able to use that to break down a lot of barriers. My connections at my university may prove to be very useful.
I'm also a world famous adventure game developer and electronic musician, if they let Madonna in, they are gonna love me! Besides, doesn't Chris like, know the Queen or something?
later,
-junc
Layabout would be a good man to ask. He's moved from Australia to England, and lived mostly on bar work and accomodation that comes with that :p
I think you'd do alright in England, though London probably wouldn't be the wisest place to start living, unless you're going to uni there or something. House prices may be high there but I have no clue what renting is like.
Good luck though! Whether you decide to come or not, you'll always be welcome here!
Quote from: m0ds on Sun 08/07/2007 14:14:43
Layabout would be a good man to ask. He's moved from Australia to England, and lived mostly on bar work and accomodation that comes with that :p
Indeed I think Layabout is the person to ask in this situation, just keep in mind that he moved from a commonwealth and that his father (or mother?) emigrated to Australia from England if I recall correctly, so he had two positives working for him :D
I have to say, I still don't see the attraction of moving to this rainy, congested, CCTV-covered wasteland that we call Britain...
CJ, he lives in a country run by George Bush...
No, no, no SSH!
I live in a country where George Bush was "ELECTED" to lead.
That is the problem.
Oh, and Disco: Yup, that makes his advice on citizenship pretty useless actually.
I did do a little more research. Citizenship is actually not the problem. As a matter of fact citizenship appears to be relatively straight forward and simple. Once you have been in the country for 5 years you have the status of "Indefinite leave to remain" which allows you to begin the naturalization process. It is getting to that 5 years that I have to struggle with.
However, it is the little things that I'm also curious about here.
What "other" questions should I be asking? "CCTV-covered wasteland" is actually a very good point to bring up.
-Do you fear your government?
-Do you feel like, at least at times, your government has your best interests in mind.
-How about raising a family?
-The school systems?
-Do you feel "safe" in your day to day life, are Brits pounded with "The terrorists are gonna getcha" crap? (I know that Londoners may get this a lot more considering recent news and all, but what about the rest of the country?)
-How about retirement?
-Welfare or more importantly an equivalent to our "Workman's Compensation" a government program which assists if you have been injured on the job?
and as far as layabout is concerned, I will PM him. Perhaps he can still offer some advice on getting used to you brits and your wacky slang.
later,
-junc
I'll help by answering some of your questions.
-Do you fear your government?
Not really. Okay, so they're not perfect and the current "climate of fear" has raised some dubious law-making proceedures, but we're not really PATRIOT-act style just yet. I have more fear of our government being incompetent than all-seeing/knowing/controlling.
-Do you feel like, at least at times, your government has your best interests in mind.
On the whole, maybe. Maybe not. Whatever gets them the most votes, which generally mean more promises to help schools/NHS/environment.
-How about raising a family?
Couldn't really comment about this, sorry. But medical treatment is free here (though a prescription will set you back £6.75 per item, excluding contraceptives and some other medications) which is one major worry off of some people's shoulders.
-The school systems?
This depends highly on the area you live in. I've been very fortunate in that I live in one of the areas where grammar schools still exist, and I completed my secondary education at a very good grammar school. Not all of our schools are necessarily "crap" or anything, I personally mantain that a lot of the problems with "kids today" is down to bad parenting, not bad schools.
-Do you feel "safe" in your day to day life, are Brits pounded with "The terrorists are gonna getcha" crap? (I know that Londoners may get this a lot more considering recent news and all, but what about the rest of the country?)
Actually, I think you'll find Londoners get no more/less of that than the rest of us (I myself live just outside London, in a town featured for containing terrorists last year :P). The stiff-upper-lip attitude is quite prevalent here, from my experience, and most people see these terrorist incidents as more of an inconvenience to travel arrangements more than anything.
-How about retirement?
Currently you are entitled to a state pension once you reach 65 BUT they are highly predicting that as the population ages my generation will not be provided with one as there will not be enough people in the work force to support the pensioners. It is strongly advised to arrange a pension with an employer, or start your own personal savings fund which you make regular payments into ASAP.
-Welfare or more importantly an equivalent to our "Workman's Compensation" a government program which assists if you have been injured on the job?
There are all sorts of welfare and benefits here, a much more comprehensive system than is in place in the US anyway. I think the equivalent here is National Insurance, which is effectively a second tax upon your income that everyone pays into in order to provide disability, unemployment and long-term sickness benefit. I wouldn't be able to comment on how adequate those systems are, but they are in place. As already mentioned, medical treatment in the UK is free.
If you want to get on the fast track to the UK become a dentist...or lie about it. ;D
I agree with Becky, the government isn't half as scary as they wish they were, although people should get onto them about privacy a bit more. It'd be worse if British people were more scared about bombings and stuff, hopefully they'll continue to not panic. Inner cities often do have a lot of CCTV coverage, public and private... that in itself doesn't bother me but there's no denying it's harder to remain anonymous these days.
I would imagine when it comes to raising a family, accomodation would be the main difficulty. If you don't have a real income then you're not going to be able to rent a house, let alone buy one. That won't change for quite some time, there just aren't enough houses.
Schools: I've lived in average to poor areas, and the schools were fine in my opinion. But do check out results and reputation if you're worried. Inner city schools have the worst reputations, so I'd definitely do that if I lived in London.
Yeah as Becky said, people don't tend to worry about bombings or whatever. I remember being in London on 7/7/2005, and people just got on with stuff as best they could with the transport disruption. I hope if there are more bombings, people can continue as they have. On the other hand, it's a bit weird seing armed police on the streets in London/airports, and there are more "don't leave baggage unattended" type warnings on the tube than before. Anywhere else there's no change.
If you can't work due to long term illness or injury you can get disability allowance, which is quite adequate but harder than it was to claim (still, I know people that are on it and really shouldn't be). There are greater employee protection laws throughout europe, so if you're sick for some time, you'll be able to work something out. If you're searching for work then you get jobseeker's allowance, which isn't a large amount of money, but you can get help with your housing costs as well.
The price for all that is higher taxes than the US, of course. Pretty much all of Europe works this way.
I think moving abroad without a good wage to go to is quite a brave thing to do... I personally wouldn't. A lot of the support you might be able to get as a British Citizen may not be available to you for some time. If you are determined to do it for cheap, I'd suggest anywhere except London. What are you studying? If you're finishing your studies soon, and it's something that's in demand here, you might be alright...
I'm Greek, living in London (inside the M25) for 3 years now... I guess my POv could be useful, as someone who is not British, living here, with a family...
Quote from: juncmodule on Sun 08/07/2007 20:51:17
-Do you fear your government?
No, not at all. Back in Greece I always thougth the goverment were stupid morons. At least here I don't get that feeling... and they are trying to inflict a bit of fear, mainly through the telly in campaing/propaganda about things they consider bad (smoking, speeding, sex diseases, etc), with very cacthy, artistically, but shocking ads, but they are not doing anything else really. And they are certainly not trying to provide a base for "fear about terrorism".
Quote-Do you feel like, at least at times, your government has your best interests in mind.
comparison with Greece again: In Greece no, their interest is on themselves! Here I think they do care about the people. And UK as a "nation", or even better an "empire" (ouch! Time to get beaten in this forum)
Quote-How about raising a family?
I actually like it very much here, thus far. with 2 kids I have a family :D I don't know if I would like to have my kids being 13-15 over here, but certainly for toddlers is very very fine! Raising a family... The goverment helps enormously for various expenses, but the main one, the nursery is almost unbearable, even with tax credits... 2000$ per month!!!!?!?!?!?!!?
Quote-The school systems?
No idea on that one really... I think that it's a bit pushy as a system, but I actually am not sure at all about that, just a hunch more than anything else... Universities are too mnay, imo, and most are not the greatest around... THAT I know! (ouch! for the 2nd time)
Quote-Do you feel "safe" in your day to day life, are Brits pounded with "The terrorists are gonna getcha" crap? (I know that Londoners may get this a lot more considering recent news and all, but what about the rest of the country?)
Not for a minute! but then again I'm Greek so I have the illusion that, if something happens, I will be saved because I'm Greek and not British... Stupid, but at least I don't worry...
Quote-How about retirement?
That is AWFUL! At least from what my wife and me tell me. IT appears that private insurance is the way to go, but you need to afford it...
Quote-Welfare or more importantly an equivalent to our "Workman's Compensation" a government program which assists if you have been injured on the job?
Goverment is very helpful in all situations actually...
And the NHS is free for many cases, including people on job seekers allowance, all kids up to the age of 16 (or is it 18?), and other things.
QuoteUniversities are too mnay, imo, and most are not the greatest around...
Actually, the standard of most universities in the UK is pretty damn good (particularly the London ones, and of course Durham/Oxford/Cambridge/York/Warwick) especially if you go to one renowned for excellence in the subject you are interested in.
And all treatment on the NHS is free, you only have to pay for prescriptions (at £6.75 an item), though those are free if you're under 19 :)
Quote from: Becky on Sun 08/07/2007 22:24:16
Actually, the standard of most universities in the UK is pretty damn good (particularly the London ones, and of course Durham/Oxford/Cambridge/York/Warwick) especially if you go to one renowned for excellence in the subject you are interested in.
I don't have any charts, or facts about what I said, but my experience is just... what I said. There is no way to prove what I said really, and maybe it the circumstance, but yet, from many cases I've seen the quality is not... damn good. Again this is my personal opinion of course, and is based on no facts, or no proofs really.
QuoteAnd all treatment on the NHS is free, you only have to pay for prescriptions (at £6.75 an item), though those are free if you're under 19 :)
Sorry, that's what I mean. I stand corrected.
Hey Junc,
interesting to hear you want to move countries, and for political reasons, at least Bush hasn't got much time left, (but I guess what he's done is going to take many generations to recover if that is even possible)
I thought about Moving to London around 2003/4 just for the experience, but only on a working visa as at the time you had to be 28 or under. My brother in law's brother ran a pub over there, so I had a place to work and stay to start off with if I decided to go through with it.
I never got round to it, and the age window has passed although the age may have changed now, not sure but I'm not as interested, as instead I saved up and bought a place, and now can't save any money as it all goes into my mortgage.
If London doesn't work for you, you can come over here, but Sydney is also one of the most expensive cities to live and rent is at an all time high at the moment. Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth are also good cities with opportunity within Australia. Perth being the most Isolated capital city in the world if you really want to hide but also quite expensive, though if you want to earn big money, there's a lot of well paid mining work eg. no experience AU$120,000 a year outside Perth, but you wouldn't have much of a life, but I don't think money is one of your priorities. I'm also not sure about working visa's in Australia.
Good Luck
~Tim
Quote from: juncmodule on Sun 08/07/2007 02:38:20
"They only have one flavor of Ramen Noodles in the whole country!"
Sorry to have to be the one to break this to you, but I've never seen Ramen Noodles for sale here in the UK. The only time I've ever heard of them is through US media.
Timosity: Trying to move to Australia is much much harder than moving to the UK! You certainly couldn't get in if your plan is "working at McDonalds", you need to show yourself as holding skills that are in demand. TBH, it's a system I entirely agree with; we should have the same rules here. I can't say I'm flattered by the prospect of another immigrant being added to the job pool of an entirely over-subscribed employment sector.
My advice to juncmodule is to get a job in the US that has some kind of career prospects first and then look at emigrating. As an unskilled worker, you're competing with far too many people and if you're not offering anything more than everyone else you're just going to be passed over due to the complications in employing you.
QuoteI can't say I'm flattered by the prospect of another immigrant being added to the job pool of an entirely over-subscribed employment sector.
Ahhh, xenophobia, awesome.
QuoteIf London doesn't work for you, you can come over here...
Thanks Timosity! I have been thinking about other countries. Spain has come up due to employment opportunities, but this isn't a priority for me. France is pretty big on my radar, but the language barrier makes me hesitant. Australia is also of interest due to the lack of language barrier. I'm honestly not sure why I haven't given it more thought than I have.
QuoteAnd all treatment on the NHS is free, you only have to pay for prescriptions (at £6.75 an item), though those are free if you're under 19
This really sounds amazing. I can not even begin to describe the burden this would relieve regarding raising a family. No matter what type of employment you have in the US there is no guarantee that your health insurance will take care of you. Co-pays and other nasty loop holes that health insurance companies in America find to not treat people is a little disturbing. I will have to look into it a little more.
QuoteAs an unskilled worker...
Didn't mean to mislead anyone here. McDonalds is meant to be more of a metaphor for a low paying job, not an actual potential employer. The point of bringing up low wage jobs was to get some info about any potential worst case scenarios. I am anything but an unskilled worker. Before leaving the country I do hope to at least have my Bachelors degree. As I said, I may also pursue some educational avenues to get into England. Perhaps getting my Masters and PhD there. I also understand you folks are in dire need of some truck drivers. I'm not sure how much good an American commercial drivers license will do me, but I imagine it wouldn't hurt.
An idea that came up today which I'm a little excited about is telecommuting. I thought I wouldn't be working for my current employer over the summer so looked into some web jobs elsewhere. I was impressed with the number of telecommuting web development jobs I ran into. I was speaking with my boss about this and he said that most countries would be very excited about this, because I would be bringing in an income from outside the nation. I would be like a little profit machine. Wee!
later,
-junc
To comment a bit futher for NHS. Treatment is free and is good. GPs will take you in most of the time at the same day, but then again not all GPs are that good, and as general practisioners, they do tend to... not be thorough.
also about prescriptions (because I just got my kids to the GP today, so I was reminded of that): It is 6.75£ except for people under 16, or 17,18 under full education. Above 60 as well. And another 8-10 other reasons for you to get free prescriptions. But what I find best, is that (in Greece) not all drugs cost the same. I've seen antibiotics at the price of 100+ euros. The idea that, everything is free and you don't pay for the drug actually, but for the handling is awesmoe ;)
QuoteTBH, it's a system I entirely agree with; we should have the same rules here. I can't say I'm flattered by the prospect of another immigrant being added to the job pool of an entirely over-subscribed employment sector.
hmmm... this definately deserves a new thread, but I'll let it pass for now.
Quote from: juncmodule on Tue 10/07/2007 00:15:23
QuoteI can't say I'm flattered by the prospect of another immigrant being added to the job pool of an entirely over-subscribed employment sector.
Ahhh, xenophobia, awesome.
I didn't mean for it to sound like xenophobia. I'm all for you coming here on holiday or coming over and working if you're going to fill a position that would be worthwhile.
Quote from: Nikolas on Tue 10/07/2007 00:22:57
To comment a bit futher for NHS. Treatment is free and is good.
...and oversubscribed.
Quote from: Nikolas on Tue 10/07/2007 00:22:57
QuoteTBH, it's a system I entirely agree with; we should have the same rules here. I can't say I'm flattered by the prospect of another immigrant being added to the job pool of an entirely over-subscribed employment sector.
hmmm... this definately deserves a new thread, but I'll let it pass for now.
You're a skilled worker, Nikolas. I don't have anything against people coming here and doing a job that they're trained in and are good at. I just think it's a shame when people migrate here just for the sake of it; I think it's a shame anyone migrates
anywhere without contributing in some way to the country they move into.
So, in your opinion, people should unsubscibe from NSH (no matter the consequencies?)
Quote from: Hudders on Tue 10/07/2007 09:31:07
You're a skilled worker, Nikolas. I don't have anything against people coming here and doing a job that they're trained in and are good at. I just think it's a shame when people migrate here just for the sake of it; I think it's a shame anyone migrates anywhere without contributing in some way to the country they move into.
Also the fact that I'm a skilled worker has extremely little to do with me being here in London:
A. I'm
studying in London, which means I'm paying tuition fees. Plus rent, food, nursery and whatever else.
B. I am working, but I'm working with people
outside the uk (Japan, Greece and Canada at the moment). So I'm not getting
any money from UK citizens. On the contrary I file my taxes here in the Uk, instead of Greece (although Greek). Of course, since I'm a full time student I can earn quite a lot of money without paying taxes :-[. but still I actually intend to keep my tax records in the UK, indefinately.
In all me and my family are bringing money in the UK, and not taking it out...
Same happens with most people. In the end they live there, they pay a rent, they pay a bank for their new house, they pay sky, and whatever else.
People move for tons of reasons. Migrating because you're unhappy in your country is a highly respectful reason for me.
OK. Let me clear this up a bit.
I'm certainly not one of those "send 'em back" type people who consider all immigrants to be a drain on the economy; taking jobs that would otherwise be filled by UK citizens or using up all the benefits. I don't mutter racial epithets into my Daily Mail or take exception to anyone who isn't white and middle-class. I certainly didn't mean to imply that as an immigrant you were being given a free ride and weren't contributing.
My comment about the NHS was not that everyone should stop using it but that it should be better. There are far too many people and not enough NHS doctors to go around; often you will wait months for an appointment. Certainly it is a better service than is provided in the USA but it still requires refinement.
TBH I suppose my problem isn't with immigrants at all: I hold the same bias against people of my own country who are content not to make an effort.
I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky but I've never had too much of a problem with the NHS (pretty much always able to get appointments with a GP within a day or two, waited 8 weeks to see a specialist). Of course it's not perfect, and I never meant to imply it was, but from a purely monetary situation when considering the costs of treatment for a family the NHS has several benefits.
Quote from: Becky on Tue 10/07/2007 13:11:28
I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky but I've never had too much of a problem with the NHS (pretty much always able to get appointments with a GP within a day or two, waited 8 weeks to see a specialist). Of course it's not perfect, and I never meant to imply it was, but from a purely monetary situation when considering the costs of treatment for a family the NHS has several benefits.
Yeah, I'm not saying the NHS is the worst system in the world, because it's blatantly not. But if you need an operation you'll have to wait months if it's not life-threatening or if you have to spend any time in hospital you soon see how overworked the staff are and how bad a state the facilities are kept in. All this is exhasperated by the fact that you could choose to go private at any point and for the sake of a few thousand pounds, the same doctor that you've been waiting almost a year to see does your operation the next day.
Whether the NHS is any good depends on which way you look at it.
On the one hand all treatment is "free", which is a good thing.
On the other hand, this is paid for by having high taxes, which is a bad thing.
18% of tax revenue is spent on the NHS -- so the question is, if you could have an 18% tax cut, but have to get private medical insurance instead, would you take it?
Quote from: Pumaman on Tue 10/07/2007 21:00:26
18% of tax revenue is spent on the NHS -- so the question is, if you could have an 18% tax cut, but have to get private medical insurance instead, would you take it?
I guess this could be considered a good move for anyone who pays a lot of taxes (ie. has or makes a lot of money). At the same time it would effectively stop less fortunate people from getting any medical treatment at all. So yes, that might be the sensible if selfish thing to do if you can afford it, but personally I think the benefits of the system are worth the so called sacrifice. I know I've had cause to thank the Finnish equivalent of your NHS. Even though it has it's obvious flaws.
Just wondering if someone could verify some numbers for me. Since I found some of the reference for the numbers on the web I just want to see if they are up to date and realistic. All amounts are in £ not $.
Quote
One Bedroom Flat rent/month £800
Flat Bills/month £200
Groceries/month for two £240
restaurant meal (4 time/month for two) £160
Zone 1-6 Travelcard/month for £328
Movie Theater (4/month) £80
Movie Rental (4/month) £16
Spending/month £160
Total/Month: £1984 Net
Taxes: £400
Gross: £2400/month
Wage 1: £5.70/hour at 40hrs/week for two - £1824/month Gross
Wage 2: £7.50/hour at 40hrs/week for two - £2400/month Gross
Thanks!
later,
-junc
Depends on where you live and how you live and what work you do and all that really...
For example
In my case:
2 bed flat, with 3rd box room for a studio and 2 baths: 1000£ (but it's in zone 4, and not close to a tube station)
bills: 150£, but no sky
groceries: much much more, since I have 2 kids
restaurant meal: definately less than 40£ per meal, I'd say.
travelcard: Why on earth should you want a 1-6 travel card if you live on zone 3, or 2 as it seems from the rent?
the wages are for untrained, as I see it.
Either way you can get pricer than that but definately cheaper than that as well...
In all, if you don't have much money, you can def, live much cheaper than that. All students do after all (Exception the rent, which is huge actually)
But keep in mind, that my post is based on my experiences, alone, since I'm not Brittish, so truth to be told I could be a bit off. But I've also changed 3 houses (all rents) and been going out and living normally...
I think you've overestimated your grocery bill for two people, you could easily live on £170 a month. But you've probably underestimated how much it would cost to eat out, if you're talking London prices.
Minimum wage is £5.52 for 22 and over but only £4.60 for 18 to 21 and £3.40 for 16 to 17, (that's before tax). I don't know what they pay in London for McDonalds-esque workers but round here, we're definitely talking minimum wage.
Actually I just went out yesternight to an Indian restaurant (love indian food), in Ealing Broadway (zone 3, but it is a "center" of something anyways).
2 adults and 2 kids.
1 starter
2 main courses
1 special rice
1 nan
6 papadams (!)
4 pints of beer
remember it is 4 mouths to feed.
The bill came out at 35£, including service charge (10% ?)
It really depends on where in London you're talking about. Cause in soho you can get "all you can eat" medium-bad quality chinesse for 6.25£ a person, and get it over with...
Best idea you can do is to visit www.tesco.com and check out REAL prices there. Just make a fake account that you live somewhere in London and order your whole monthly groceries, just to see the bill.
Visit www.thames-water.com/ for the water bills, to see what they charge and how (water is not really that expensive)
Visit www.southern-electric.co.uk/ to see electricity bills and www.britishgas.co.uk for gas prices...
This covers groceries and bills.
For rent the best idea is to find 2-3 different estate agents to check prices again:
www.foxtons.co.uk/ (largely expensive really with plenty of fancy stuff but they cover most of London)
www.townends.co.uk/ (less fancy, almost as big coverage and expensive though)
www.rightmove.co.uk/ (general with plenty of options and estate agents in there).
With a bit of searching and changing options you'll see what you can get for how much and where. As a very general rule, west and the general richmond area (southwest) is more expensive than the north and the east. At least to my knowledge...
Wages I don't know much, but it seems reasonable to what hudders says...
hope it's helpful
If you're in London an Oyster pay-as-you-go travelcard is probably cheaper than a Zone 1-6 one (especially as you won't be using the full distance).
Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 16/07/2007 09:49:28
The bill came out at 35£, including service charge (10% ?)
I must admit I probably get suckered into tourist prices when I go down there. Either that or we eat out with my godmother-in-law who is loaded and therefore doesn't think anything to spending £90 on lunch.
Quotethe wages are for untrained, as I see it.
Either way you can get pricer than that but definately cheaper than that as well...
Yup, keep in mind I'm trying to figure for bare minimum here. If you can feed a family of four on £35 then I don't think I will have any problems. My £40 came from an estimate of £20/meal I saw for a mid grade restaurant. The estimate didn't indicate if it was for one person or two so I just doubled it. While I don't think we will be eating steaks once a week, and all-you-can-eat places scare me, it is nice to grab a bite to eat after a movie.
QuoteMinimum wage is £5.52 for 22 and over
Excellent, thank you. I'm assuming that is for all of England? So in London I would hope that they cushion that a little for folks. I'm thinking I've overestimated and underestimated enough that the numbers all balance out in the end. Since no one has thrown up any huge red flags I'm feeling okay so far.
So using those numbers and adding a couple other horrible monthly payments I will be making:
-------------------------------
Student Loans: £300/month
Retirement Savings: £200/month
Total/Month: £2484 Net
Taxes: £1000
Gross: £3484/month
Wage 3: £22.00/hour at 40hrs/week for one - £3520/month Gross - £45760/year
-------------------------------
I guess I need to be hunting for a job in £45k range to start. My hope is that it isn't a lot of money for the London area. I'm guessing in other areas that would be equal to about £40-£43k.
I'm a little concerned about this because most wage estimates I've seen have been closer to £35k/year for anyone with a BA. Keeping in mind that my BA will be in Humanities (Comparative Studies) so typical college graduate wages are lower for me. Considering the fact that in the US having a BA is not much better than having a high school education I'm just not sure if I'm going to be able to hit that wage to start.
I have been considering changing my major to Communications Technology (Web Design) and I expect that the wage for that will be much higher. I guess I will start digging into that a little more.
Thanks everyone for your input. Extremely helpful!
later,
-junc
Um, £45k a year straight out of uni is -very- unlikely. Seriously, I think the average graduate first job is around £18-20k, especially in humanities. I think you're being incredibly optimistic about your earning power.
I agree.
I've been staring at those numbers since posting it.
My idea was to remove my girlfriends wages from the equation altogether. Try to figure out how much it would cost to make it with just one of us working. Unfortunately, it just doesn't look realistic. Actually, my girlfriend not working is pretty unrealistic anyway, she works more and earns more than I do now anyway :)
A quick search also led me to web jobs that start in the £18-20k range too.
I'm going to have to think on things for a bit. I'm pretty sure most of my expense numbers are pretty high anyway. The comparison to US vs UK wages is actually a little shocking. Your minimum wage is double ours basically. So I think I got a little carried away :)
Regardless, the idea of cost of living in London being an issue is out the window. I can live much more comfortably in London than I do here. Let me tell you, we don't go to dinner and a movie every weekend and we definitely don't have that much spending money! My initial numbers are us living comfortably. So, whatever I'm earning when I graduate, it will be enough I expect. I guess the £45k number is a goal to shoot for once I get my foot in the door.
Thanks again.
later,
-junc
45£k is way off estimation, but you already know that...
Another thing to put in the estimations is the money you will need to "start off". you mae not get a job for a month or two. Or it may take you 2 weeks to find a flat/house to stay. Other than that I'm really glad to see that you seem to have made up your mind... Dunno, it feels... exciting doesn't it?
Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 16/07/2007 16:02:08
Another thing to put in the estimations is the money you will need to "start off".
Keep in mind that the dollar is extremely weak vs the pound at the moment. Since you'll be making your "starting off" money in the US, make sure you convert it properly (http://www.xe.com/ucc/) rather than just turning the $ into a £ ;D
On a side note, I'm in my first job since leaving education. I've a BSc in IT and I make £20k a year. For the area I live in, that's a pretty good wage; in London possibly not.
Your estimates for rent & bills seem pretty accurate -- when I lived in London a couple of years ago, I was paying about this per month:
£800 rent for a 2 bedroom flat,
£100 council tax
£50 gas/elec
£25 water
£10 phone line
£20 broadband.
= £1000/month essential living costs
(though as I was flat sharing this was only £500 for me, which is more affordable)
That plus food would be your basic essential monthly outgoings, which you could just about cover with a £20k job -- but it wouldn't leave you any slack for going out and enjoying yourself.
Of course, if you got a £20k job and your girlfriend got a minimum wage one, then you'd cover the monthly expenses and her wage would all be SPEND SPEND SPEND ;)
Hello,
I guess it's time to divulge my words of wisdom...
Firstly, unless you manage to score a kickass job, I wouldn't think about london.
A 2 bed flat in london for £1000 p/month. The same in Milton Keynes, only a 30-46 minute train journey, you could get the same for £550-£600. There are alot of jobs in MK and the surrounding area. The infrastructure is far better than anywhere in the UK i know of when it comes to schools, shops and facilities. It is easy to navigate. The only downside is there is very little character, but there are still proper english villages very close by.
I live about 20 mins from milton keynes, but i work there.
I dunno really what else to say.
I found it easy to adjust to life in the UK, once i had made friends. I love it here.