Multiculturalism in Europe

[Anarcho]

So now we're not allowed to say that this is OUR country, without being against multiculturalism? 

Basically, yeah.  That's like saying, "So now I can't burn a cross in front of a black man's house without being called racist?"  Here's a definition of multiculturalism:

"the doctrine that several different cultures (rather than one national culture) can co-exist peacefully and equitably in a single country."  So basically, it would seem that most of the people who have responded do not like the idea of multiculturalism.  Most people seem to advocate assimilation.  Ok.  Let's just get that out of the way.

But let's get to the little girl that is born in Ireland but is not "ethnically" irish, whatever that means.  And there are DEFINITELY children born in Ireland who are not ethnically irish.  What are they?  Are they eternally foreigners?  For how many generations do they have to live in Ireland before it's their country too?  Do you have a rulebook for this?  It's bullshit and doesn't make sense.  I mean, I've never been in Ireland, but do you have someone that walks around with some kind of "Irish-o-meter" that measures how Irish you are?  Like, if you're wearing enough green?  Maybe it's just reserved for the dark-skinned Irish-born children, to determine if they're Irish enough to be considered Irish?

Look, you can be patriotic, celebrate Irish culture, wear your "trousers", have a ball.  No one is saying you can't.  But your country, as well as other countries in the EU, are going to have to come to grips with the idea that non-white people will be living in your country...and working in your country...and voting in your country.  And your culture, and country, is going to change.  It may change in slight ways, but it's going to change.   AGAIN: YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LIKE EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERY CULTURE THAT YOU COME IN CONTACT WITH NOR MUST YOU ACCEPT IT, but telling them to move somewhere else doesn't help anybody. 

[Nacho]

Farlander,

Sorry I linked to the login page, I thought it would link to the article.Ã,  You don't need to be sarcastic.Ã,  I was hoping we could have a mature discussion here.Ã, 

I forgot the smiley after my first sentence, sorry.

About inmigration... well... In Spain inmigrants are 6 %, but the prison population is 66 % inmigrant... That's what I call a "little reason for not being confident" with some sources of inmigration.

We do not care about Russians, Yankees, Brits, Japs... But we (We, as Spaniards, I mean) are reluctant to Marrocoeans, Rumanians and Colombians (I could explain why, but my points may be seem as a healing for racism, and I am not... I'll just say: "Their special social developements make that his emigrants are in a remarkable amount delinquents")

So... that's what CJ explained. Last weekend I was in "Casa Abdul", a Moroccoean restaurant in my town whose cook is Abdul, a lovely moor who has spent 32 years here, who speaks Spanish perfectly and mounts a Bethlem in Xmas. He even wears a Santa's hat in Xmas! How could people be reluctant about that guy?

But there is the other side... People who has been here for generations and still does not feel like in home. I am not telling of speaking his lenguaje at home, or celebrate it's parties, I am talking of people who does not want to learn the lenguaje, who is here because they have no other choice, people who is not happy here, who aggressive with us.

The thing is becoming a paradox. Spain is lay. We do not put crosses in class... We do not pray preachers before today's theme. Our jew citizens do not wear "Kippa". So... if there is a group of girls wearing Chaddor we will have that the laycism we've been fighting for years, a national agreement of the majory to say: "ok, I am Christian but I will not make publics shows of it because I respect the tiny minory who is not" is going to the flush. Maybe I am crazy, but I don't really like it.

[Anarcho]

Right, but if you make people hide their religion, then you don't have freedom of religion.  If they're not allowed to be proud of who they are, or what they belief in, then you don't have a very free society.  I respect secularism, I'm an athiest.  But if someone wants to wear a Yarmulke, I'm not going to tell them they can't.  It doesn't effect me at all.  How does they're wearing something religious effect you?  What about nuns?  Are nuns and priests allowed to wear religious dress?  How would that be different?

[Pumaman]

Basically, yeah. Ã, That's like saying, "So now I can't burn a cross in front of a black man's house without being called racist?" Ã, 

Um, what? That's not even comparable.

So basically, it would seem that most of the people who have responded do not like the idea of multiculturalism. Ã, Most people seem to advocate assimilation.

How did you draw that conclusion? True multiculturalism is great if you can find it, but in reality life's just not like that, however much we may wish it was.

For how many generations do they have to live in Ireland before it's their country too? Ã, Do you have a rulebook for this? Ã, It's bullshit and doesn't make sense.

My personal opinion is that if you're born in a country, then that is your country. Equally, if you immigrate and adopt and integrate into the culture, it also becomes your country.

But your country, as well as other countries in the EU, are going to have to come to grips with the idea that non-white people will be living in your country...and working in your country...and voting in your country.

What? Where did "non-white" come from? A lot of immigration problems involve white people from other countries; since when did this become a colour issue? Equally, we've gone far past the stage of thinking of "blacks" as immigrants. It's culture, not skin colour, that's important.

And your culture, and country, is going to change. Ã, It may change in slight ways, but it's going to change.

Every country and every culture is going to change. I can't help but feel you're giving the US rather too much credit, when it has well known racial tension problems, just like many other countries.

Nobody is perfect, but if you think of the progress that has been made in the last 50 years it's astounding. A truly global multiculturalism will happen, but realistically it's going to take at least another 50 years to get there.

There are too many old people stuck in their ways; my grandma still hates the Germans because of World War II. It's something that effected her in a great way and she's never forgotten it ... on the other hand, younger people now don't have any such issues.

These things take time, and that's something that YOU have got to accept.

[Anarcho]

One other thing:

In Spain inmigrants are 6 %, but the prison population is 66 % inmigrant

So what does that statistic mean?  Does it mean that more immigrants commit crimes?  Or does it mean that more immigrants are sent to prison?  Look at my country, the US...visit any university campus in the country, and you'll find more drugs and drug dealing than on any city corner in Detroit.  But do college kids go to prison for drugs?  Rarely.  If ever.  But go down the street to the black neighborhoods, or the hispanic neighborhoods, and look at how many young kids are sent to prison for doing the same exact thing.  The enforcement of laws is biased almost everywhere.  Do you think the police cars patrol the rich neighborhoods?  If a rich kid gets busted for breaking a law, how likely is it that they cops will say, "ah, he's a good kid, we'll let him off with a warning."  It's extremely likely.

I'm not trying to excuse anybody of anything, but it's important to look beyond the numbers sometimes.

[Anarcho]

I don't mean to give the US credit at all...really.  My country has plenty of problems.  Segregation, racism, intolerace.  You name it.  But in a lot of ways, it's different in Europe, because you're just beginning to experience problems we've been dealing with for our entire (however short) history.

I brought up the "non-white" term because when people talk about immigrants and culture, a lot of time it boils down to race.  Don't kid yourself for a second that there isn't a racial element in this debate.  And for all intents and purpose, "non-white" can mean a lot of things.  The Irish weren't considered white in the US for a very very long time.  But I know what you're saying, there's a much larger issue involving people of all kinds of backgrounds and nationalities.

I think my analogy, while extreme, is correct.  And I'm saying that when everybody says that people who come into their country should adopt the customs of the country, that's rejecting multiculturalism.  It's advocating assimilation.  And that seemed to be what people are advocating. 

[Doctor Oakroot]

And they're not "turbans" they're "chaddor" a symbol of the submission of the muslim women to God.

Beeep! Wrong. Thanks for playing, please try again

Sikhs are not muslims and the men wear turbans and do not cut their hair or beards. They also carry a sword (usually a small ceremonial knife). This resulted in sikhs being arrested and harrassed in the US right after 9/11 since they are obviously asian and armed.

[LGM]

I haven't had time to post, but I'd like to add something relevant.

Is it me, or do a lot of Europeans seem to find themselves superior to Americans. They think their so much better, and any chance they get they seem to insult us and generalize us. Granted, we do it to.. But it seems unfair that everyone in America is comdemed into one category.

[Anarcho]

what category would that be? 

[WanderLady]

Isn't the modern thought process of an individual, whether American, European, Australian, ..., one that allows freedom for all things?
When these things begin to offend the individual, the professed freedom 'allowed' the other is no longer existent.
Is anyone really free to do anything?
If freedom is something in such demand, and so readily given by those who wish to be 'in the right', why is it still veiled,? Ã, Meaning that accepting certain freedoms as long as they are not offensive to the individual is okay, but once they offend they are considered slavery, so to speak.

the doctrine that several different cultures (rather than one national culture) can co-exist peacefully and equitably in a single country.

What is co-existing? Being in the same country, neighborhood, etc. or intermingling?
Equitable is defined as "existing or valid in equity as distinguished from law," but once you enter a country are you not under that country's law? If that law states that headresses (since that is the subject) are not to be worn, where did the individual freedom go?

[scotch]

I don't think so LGM, we're mostly friendly toward each other right? It's more like the jokes European people make about each other's nations and people.
Of course there are people that will take it further now more than usual because of the large amount of resentment over US politics, that's silly of course, but I admit it exists.
I don't know why you think the post is relevent though

As for attitudes to immigration... a few years ago I thought of the UK as one of the best examples of a multicultural country, at least where i have lived people from different cultures have got along just fine with very little seperation from each other. Ã, It seems mostly the same to me now, so I wonder what has triggered such a wave of resentment among people (a minority, but still...)
We still have one of the highest rates of interracial marriage in the world and in general things are how they have been all my life, it's a shame some people feel under threat or something. Ã, It's actually only making problems of integration some immigrants face harder.
Also, I wouldn't say people have a problem with non whites, it's less of a racial issue than you think, it's mainly Muslims that get hated (and white Eastern European economic migrants to some extent), just new immigrants. Ã, The more established Black and South Asian communities are as much a part of british culture as ever, only actual racists seem to have problems with them.

[Doctor Oakroot]

You know, from an American point of view, the French rule against religious headwear is scandalous.

Many schools in the US prohibit hats... but, if a student protested because his headwear was part of his religion, the school would make an exception (or the Supreme Court would).

Also, most of the European opinion I've heard on this issue (the broader immigration issue) would be considered raving racism if heard from an American.

Not criticizing, just observing.

[DragonRose]

In all honesty, this conversation seems very bizarre to me.  At every school I've ever been to, the rule has always been "no hats except religious headwear." So you can wear your turban, your chador, your yamulke, your whatever, but take off the baseball cap. You can also wear your communion cross, your Star of David, your Pentacle, or whatever.  You can fast during Ramadan, pray with the Christian Fellowship before classes, even keep a little shrine in your locker if you are so disposed (just no candles- they're a fire hazard). Kosher and Vegetarian meals were available (you had to ask sometimes, but they were there). My public highschool even rented out the audiotorium to a Christian group to hold prayer services on Sundays. The school doesn't have any symbols of religion, because the school itself isn't religious. But you're free to practice your religion there- just don't make others practice with you.

Here in Canada, people immigrate to live with people they are related to- it's actually the law. You have to have a sponsor who you are related to by blood, marriage or adoption, and you have to have that relationship recognized by the governmentfor a full year before you can gain landed immigrant status.  This creates neighbourhoods where there are large groups of people are all the same race and loosely related (next door neighbour is your sister's husband's cousin's neice sort of thing). The only time I've ever heard of people having a problem with this was during the SARS thingy a couple of years ago when Chinatown in Toronto basically shut itself down.

Yeah... I'm boggled by some of the reactions. Live and let live.

[Anarcho]

I find it all bizarre too. 

[Las Naranjas]

I have never met  Muslim women who was forced to wear headwear. They chose either to wear it or not wear it although most chose not to. Maybe Europe is different, but I can't see how.

In terms of it being a symbol of repression, it may be no more so than dresses and skirts, which prevent mobility and are restricted to the female sex.

But we don't ban dresses, and it's purely a choice to wear them, since the are clothing choices within school uniforms to allow pants.


Really, people need to stop patronising these girls, and in fact muslim women in general. They're just as capable as any woman to make choices and stand up for themselves. If they choose to do soemthing, why do we pity them. Those girls I mentioned at the beginning were most upset when people pitied them. They tended to get more angry at the tendency of secular and Christian people to think they had no ability to stand up for themselves than they did when people chraracterised all muslims as terrorists [although I rarely observed that happening when they were around]. These were women of Turkish, Pakistani, malay and Indonesian descent, so they took in much of the Muslim world, but they, like all human beings, were capacble of standing up for themselves.

When are sanctimonious people going to stop pitying them and recognising it. it does no good, it only dehumanising it. Where there is repression they could use support, not pity.

and that taps into a similar resentment that you can feel amongst people in the third world, aboriginies, the disabled and other groups suffering some sort of disadvantage.

On another note, multiculturalism is inevitable, adopt it or self destruct.

[Darth Mandarb]

The one problem I see when talking about a mulitcultural society is, "where will people live?"Ã,  I just can't see a time when there won't be problems when cultures collide.Ã,  Most people like to live around other people who are of a 'like mind'.Ã,  People who share the same ideals, beliefs, etc.Ã,  I don't think this is a bad thing, rather I think it should be embraced!

Now ...

Should people isolate themselves from dealing with other cultures?Ã,  Certainly not.

Should people dislike other cultures simply because they're different?Ã,  Obviously not.

But take this example:

Let's say I live in a neighborhood of 30 people and we're all 'Culture A'.

Now, let's say a person of 'Culture B' moves into our community.

Multi-culturalism dictates that we all say, "Welcome to the neighborhood!" and all that shit being 'polite and PC'.Ã,  We don't mind that this person isn't 'Culture A', but we're [understandably] concerned, because we don't know much about 'Culture B' and what it's all about.

Now lets say that this new neighbor of 'Culture B' has a cultural practice of running through the backyard banging large metallic objects together from 2am - 5am when the rest of the neighborhood (Culture A) is trying to sleep as is their practice at this time.

Should the 30 people of 'Culture A' have to accept this, and be multi-cultural, simply because it's 'Culture B's way of life?

The answer is no.

It's not wrong to feel this way.

In the modern day, however, the 'Culture B' neighbor will just piss and moan about multiculturalism and oppression until he's granted the right to make this nightly noise.Ã,  Which will then anger all of the 'Culture A' folk and cause resentment towards the people of 'Culture B'.Ã,  Then the problem just goes on and on.Ã,  Sure, 'Culture B' now gets to maintain their practices, but now 'Culture A', whose practice is to sleep at night, can no longer do that.Ã,  That's not multiculturalism, or fair.

Think of it this way:

If you're of 'Culture B' and you live in a place where you're outnumbered by 'Culture A' you need to respect their way of life and not make this noise at night.Ã,  And vice versa, if you're of 'Culture A' and you live in a place where you're outnumbered by 'Culture B' you need to accept the nightly noise escapades.

Tolerance, understanding, acceptance, and fairness.

THAT is true multiculturism to me.

[Nacho]

One other thing:

In Spain inmigrants are 6 %, but the prison population is 66 % inmigrant

So what does that statistic mean?Ã,  Does it mean that more immigrants commit crimes?Ã,  Or does it mean that more immigrants are sent to prison?Ã,  Look at my country, the US...visit any university campus in the country, and you'll find more drugs and drug dealing than on any city corner in Detroit.Ã,  But do college kids go to prison for drugs?Ã,  Rarely.Ã,  If ever.Ã,  But go down the street to the black neighborhoods, or the hispanic neighborhoods, and look at how many young kids are sent to prison for doing the same exact thing.Ã,  The enforcement of laws is biased almost everywhere.Ã,  Do you think the police cars patrol the rich neighborhoods?Ã,  If a rich kid gets busted for breaking a law, how likely is it that they cops will say, "ah, he's a good kid, we'll let him off with a warning."Ã,  It's extremely likely.

I'm not trying to excuse anybody of anything, but it's important to look beyond the numbers sometimes.

It's more a matter of the fact that the people who leaves from this countries, the ones I'd called "sources of criminality" (making a gross generalization that you have just understand as a way to save further explanations), rumanians, people from the Magreb, and some places in South America, are in such dissesperated situation that in many times their only choice is to commit crimes.

In fact, cops in Spain is a million years away of the effectivity (sometimes took to the extreme!) of the american police. Cops do not register your crime if it's the first, a mild one... so, what's the problem? The center of the big cities is full of inmigrants who steal wallets. If they are caught, they say, "hey, look at my criminal register, I did nothing yet!" and the cop agrees, so, the circle continues forever.

You have to make something gross to enter prison in Spain... Do you know which has been the penalty for the dealers of the explosives who killed 192 people in Madrid? 4 years.... they'll probably be out in one and a half, as they've already been half year in prison. In addition, no matter what you do, you can only accomplish 30 years (Which become 15, because everyday you have good behaviour in prison is a day less). Penalties of prison less to 2 years are not accomplished if they're the first.

So... who is in prisons? As for some south americans, it has to see with big cocaine dealings, or assassinations (but that is rare, because the colombian assassins who come here do it by order, they do the job in less than one day and come back to it's country). For magrebins (Magreb is a zone between Marocco and Mauretania), it has to see with serious crimes or massive hash delievery. Remember also that if you want to come in a boat from Africa to Europe without paying the abbussive amout of meoney that mafias demmand to you you can pay your debts working for them for a year (See why we can't jump of joy when we see shows of certain cultures?). Rumanians have managed extremelly well to export their mafias to Spain, and they love to steal our cars for export them to their countries and sell them as new luxury articles. Sadly, rumanians girls are close to what we consider a "ideal of beautyness", so, many of them are took here to work as a prostitutes, hoaxed telling her they're hired as a models, threatening their lives if they do not help.

About all the "turbant" stuff, I was just refering to the "chaddor" thing, a muslim item for women, I can't relly talk of the other religious items because here chaddor is the only visible religious item in schools. I repeat the previous... why they must be more than us? We do not wear crosses, jews do not wear kippas, why they, being 3 % have to monopolize the 100% of the items in schools? It's a matter of education. My cousin went to Egypt last winter. At the moment he arrived, he bought a "djillabah", put it on, started to lear some basic arab words, started to eat their food... Was he less Christian or less Occidental by that? No. When he went to Scotlant he bought a kilt, but not this nowadays kilt, the ancient one which messures 4 meters long, and he wear nothing else. He discovered it was very confortable and he wears it in his home some days. That's what I call knowing a new culture! I guess I wouldn't dare to enter in a japanese house with my shoes on... There are millions of examples. The final feeling is that, whereas I (Yo,, Jo Ego, ào, Ich), dunno if the majority of occidentals, but I talk by me, would try to be like them if going to their countries, they're not dispossed to make that effort, so, I can't jump of joy when I see them making show of their culture (When the rest of the country doesn't).

And yeah, LGM, many Europeans tend to believe we're intellectually superior to America. A superior intellect which has took the World to the edge of destruction twice, but, hey! who wants to remember histories happened 60 years ago when we can critizise Bush! 

[Haddas]

I see myself as a citizen of earth. What hat you or what language you speak shouldn't matter. I think there should be a global campaign about earth as a community. I know there are borders between countries, but they're all made up. People should be allowed to move where they please. If people do what they do, it's okay as long asnobody else gets hurt. About "immigrants". Immigrants are everyone moving to another country than their own, aren't they? Are we talking specifically about immigrants from the middle east?

[Timosity]

It's the rich and powerful that fuk it up for everyone.

If you move to another country and you are already rich or have potential to help the Economy they will accept you ahead of anyone else.

If you are just trying to start a new life, without having to worry about where your next meal is coming from or dodging bullets, you can just fuck off, hows that gonna help us.

This is why people tend not to mix as much in general and hang out in their own towns or suburbs. Sydney is fairly multicultural, but as with most large cities, there are certain cultural groups living in certain areas,

The younger generation seem to mix quite easily when they are in the earlier years of school, but it seems as they get older they tend to want to know more about their heritage and slip back into their own groups.

you would think that over many generations, everyone would become friends, but if that was the case, it would have happened by now. So it must be animal instinct that cause all the problems (along with greed and money).  We like to think we are more superior, but we act just like other animals, trying to be more dominant to be noticed in the crowd.



If it were up to me, you could choose to live anywhere in the world you like for as long or short as you like, no visas or passports, It's our World, Universe. none of this I'm from country A or B, we are all just cells hanging about on a rock, without having any say in where we start on it.

I know why this wouldn't work, but it was the way it was intended to work.

We could choose to wear turbans, bras, kilts, strap-ons, nothing, does it really matter, we all know what's underneath (generally), what's more important is just accepting people for who they are, if you don't like them, find someone you do like, and don't put everyone else down.

sounds simple, but we still haven't mastered it.

[SSH]

Abdul, a lovely moor who has spent 32 years here, who speaks Spanish perfectly and mounts a Bethlem in Xmas.

Farl, you really need to look up all the meanings of the word "mount"    Don't worry, Marian makes the same mistake of saying "mount" when she means "assemble" or "put up". Maybe I'm the only one who knew what you meant there. Marian really misses the "Belenes" at Christmas, as they don't really do them here, or at least not on such a scale.

Is it me, or do a lot of Europeans seem to find themselves superior to Americans. They think their so much better.

It's not racism if it's true?  : For example, we know the difference between "they're" and "their"!