911 planned by the US Government?

[MrColossal]

http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=26472.msg334830#msg334830

You skipped that entire post.

Did Lee Harvey Oswald work alone?

The reason I bring these other theories up [The moon being the first] is because if you really learn both sides it's pretty painfully obvious which one is a crack pot theory and which isn't. People believe that everyone at NASA was in on the hoaxed moon landing, or at least thousands of people were tricked into believing they were actually working on a spaceship. People also believe that there is a huge conspiracy behind JFK being shot and really Olive Stone is the reason people still believe this.

If you can give me a plausible reason behind why hundreds of people would keep quiet about a 9/11 cover up, then we'll be getting somewhere. Black mail and payoffs don't really cut it in my opinion since I can use that as a reason for everything.

"The reason no one has come forward about how the moon landing was faked is because everyone was either blackmailed or paid for!"

"The reason no one has come forward about how JFK was assassinated by the US government is because everyone was either black mailed or paid for!"

"The reason no one has come forward about how the Masons run the world and have run the world for hundreds of years is because everyone was either black mailed or paid for!"

I'm not skittish about 9/11. It just seems like you're picking your language to convince yourself even though you say you aren't convinced either way. The government and media make up a lot more than Fox news and the Bush administration, believing reporters and authors and people who know what they're talking about isn't the same as nodding your head with glazed over eyes whenever you hear George Bush say "Let's roll!".

"I thought this would be an open discussion"

How is this not an open discussion? Is there someone here trying to prevent you from speaking?

[Gregjazz]

When I see a plane smack into a building, I don't assume it's the government trying to fuck its citizens. Because of this, your theory is the alternative hypothesis not the null.

The fact that the airplane hit the twin towers is undeniable. There's footage of it. People were there.

The argument is that the building collapsed much too like the collapses of buildings when demolished with carefully set up explosives. However, they say that it was because of the fire that the building collapsed this way, which makes sense because of the jet fuel burning from the plane. (also if you watch the videos you can see the fire spreading really fast)

However the interesting thing with the Pentagon crash is that there is no footage of a plane hitting it. At least in the footage shown, you can not see a single trace of an airplane. Also, an airplane that low to the ground to hit the first story of the building (by the way, the pilot would have to be very well-trained to do something like this) would be extremely loud. Witnesses heard no such noise.

Anyway, I don't know what all this could mean. You have to think "why?" It's a pretty elaborate plan just to try to justify a war with Iraq... so I'm not sure what's going on.

[m0ds]

I'm not going to get drawn into this debate, but I'll post my 2 cents.

I saw this movie a while ago, a few of my friends pointed it out and wholeheartedly beleived it. I watched it and barely beleived any of it. Sure, it raises some interesting points but at the end of the day it does just seem like opinion. It's hard to take something seriously with a voice like that presenter

To be fair - I don't want to beleive it's a Government set up. That would just be wrong. It would take away all the focus from Bin Laden, who I'm fairly sure is a terrorist. Bush isn't clever, but that doesn't make him dumb enough to destroy his own people. He seems pretty pro-American.

The Pentagon & Pensylvania crash are a real mystery to me still, those are the parts I beleived. But as for hidden explosions, missles on the plane then I thought that was bull. Also what was the deal with the video saying loads of the hijackers were still alive, as were the pilots of the crashed planes? That just fucked with my head.

It's funny how much of a teh debate this has bred! But I really do pity those who beleive it's true. If rule 1 of owning a television is; dont beleive everything you see - then rule 1 of the internet should be - don't trust everything you download! Certainly not Google video. Especially not when it's title uses Courier New font or similar.

The only thing that may sway my mind is getting hold of some original footage of the planes hitting. In Loose Change we see what they describe as "detonations" as the buildings collapse, but I never remember seeing them in the original footage.

Anyway, crazy video - annoyed it's fucked up so many peoples heads.

[MrColossal]

"However the interesting thing with the Pentagon crash is that there is no footage of a plane hitting it. At least in the footage shown, you can not see a single trace of an airplane. Also, an airplane that low to the ground to hit the first story of the building (by the way, the pilot would have to be very well-trained to do something like this) would be extremely loud. Witnesses heard no such noise."

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ppfinal.html

Quick google search shows some interesting stuff... Also, why should there be footage of the plane hitting the pentagon? How much footage is there of the first plane hitting the WTC building? I wouldn't say that's interesting at all. Is there any footage of the plane that crashed? Is that some how telling of there being something amiss?

[Raggit]

Eric, sorry about missing that post.

Why not kill Valerie Wilson?
First of all, bear in mind that she was not directly connected with the scenario.  Her husband, Joe Wilson, was the one who determined that the Iraq couldn't have purchased uranium from Africa, and he was criticizing the administration's use of intelligence.  They tried to punish Joe Wilson by destroying his wife's career, and by the way, putting her mission and even her life in danger. 

So in one since, you could look at it as though they WERE trying to kill her by releasing her identity, but they were taking a safer route by just trying to put her in danger, and not actually have her blood directly on their hands.

As to the question, why not kill anybody and everybody who opposes the administration:  You answered your own question in the original post.  People WOULD notice. 
A lot of times, I think things can be kept secret just by controlling the media.

Actually, there IS footage of whatever happened to the impact.  It was confiscated immediately by the FBI.  I can think of at least three different videos that were confiscated.

1.)  Security camera footage from the gas station across the highway.

2.) The Sheraton hotel rooftop camera.  The employees actually managed to watch the tape, just before the FBI took it.  They were warned not to talk.

3.) The DOT cameras on the highway would've taped what happened, but it has never been released.

[marlamoe]

I suck at physics but I know what I know. Ã, 

I watched this tragedy from beginning to end live. Ã, I watched as people jumped from the towers because the flames were too hot and the alternative death seemed more inviting. Ã, I have heard 911 tapes of the victims as they knew they were going to die. Ã, 

As all this was happening, my brother was working a block from the whitehouse. radar picked up the plane in the DC area, my brother and everyone else in that area was told to run as fast as they could and as far as they could. Ã, Right after that is when the plane hit the pentagon. Ã, 

No there is no video of the plane hitting that building. Ã, Why would there be? Ã, Everyone's attention was towards NY. Ã, Should there have been a video crew at every signifigant building throughout the US just waiting for airplanes to hit them? Ã, I do know that not long after it hit, there was footage of the aftermath and it did look like a plane hit it. Ã, Same in Pennsylvania. Ã, 

We did not know whether my brother was dead or alive for two days. Ã, The only thing I agree with here is that Bush has used it to his advantage at every twist and turn. Ã, I don't believe for a second that he or our government had anything to do with it and I am betting most survivors agree.

[lo_res_man]

These 911 conspiracy theories like the X-files movie. Supposedly FEMA (of Katrena fame ) covered up the Aliens and has made a deal with them. Ã, :o I agree with whoever (sorry too lazy ) said the fire doesn't have to hot enough to melt to cause trouble. (There's an understatement) they would weaken structural integrity. Ã, As well, when the B-1 bomber hit the empire sate building, it was 1) slower 2) smaller 3) the building was SUPER strong. The empire state building was built WAY stronger then needed, it had Many redundant support, which turned out to be not redundant. Modern buildings because of our "experience" with building skyscrapers are not.

[MrColossal]

Raggit, so they all of the suddenly don't want to kill someone not directly related to Iraq but they will let thousands of americans die, kill the economy and force thousands of americans out of jobs?

[passer-by]

Not even I that disagree so much with Ã, this particular american governor can believe human beings can keep their mouth shut for something so "exciting" and that professionals and analysts that are so well trained would miss something so big, especially when their primary job is to keep an eye on those groups exactly. Don't forget the journalists. Or even people that wouldn't miss the godsent chance to train their financial/political opponent in the mud for lesser mistakes.

Maybe, maybe, some people in agencies, the government or the pentagon had heard about it and profited from it, but I can't believe it was coordinated. Politics is a lonely game. There are allies, not collegues; allies tend to change sides according to the wind's direction. You never trust your allies with secrets that serious.

I think it was a hit and a very well "exploited" one.

PS. About the missiles, the detonations etc. Could it be about defense? I mean, what were the army and other security corps doing during the hit? Drinking their cafe latte? I don't think so. Ã, I think the pentagon's mayhem and similar situatiyons were indications of defense.

[Radiant]

I'm not sure how I feel about being labeled a conspiracy theorist.  Is anybody who doubts anything automatically a conspiracy theorist? 

No, a conspiracy theorist is one who believes theories about (generally governmental) conspiracies, such as the theory that the US government conspired to create the 9/11 disaster. Generally such theories fall foul of Occam's Razor (and also, Hanlon's Razor) and discount or ignore plainly visible evidence to the contrary. For instance, I notice you've not responded to my and Big Brother's arguments about the laws of physics.

[Nacho]

Do you know how many pages has the summary of the different trials around what happened 911?

My humble notions of laws tell me that around 40,000 pages per case. (And there must be something like 5 or 6 different causes investigated) That makes 200,000 or 240,000 pages. Imagine 1 page of each 1,000 has errors of minor contradictions. You have around 2,400 pages.

So, do you really think that this "tons of evidences" supporting the conspiration theory are something reliable? What happens with the other 23,7600.

[Helm]

wow don't bring Occam's razor in when discussing sociological effects! That hurts my brain!

[lo_res_man]

You know thinking of 911 reminds of this little anecdote
You see me and some friends were playing "Perfect Dark" on N64, when we decided to make an "al-quada" level, we put the bots in trench coats and the shaggiest faces in the game, Ã, then we went around and shot the bots up,
weird huh?

[MarVelo]

Conspiracy: http://youtube.com/watch?v=U4WOXh8hbkI&search=911

I laugh at the fact that I cant find any videos that are non-conspiracy on YouTube. Well...Other than the ONE in Japanese.

EDIT: This is...I dont know. Funny I guess. http://youtube.com/watch?v=lmJXS3TiQ5s&search=911%20video

[m0ds]

Well, it looks like this conspiracy theorist can shut up for a while now, as they've just released video footage of the plane hitting the Pentagon.

I haven't been able to watch it myself, I really don't want MP10 on my machine - but let me know what you think.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4987716.stm

Plus if anyone can offer this footage as an AVI, WMV or any form of downloadable format - I'd really, really appreciate it.

[Helm]

all lies

[m0ds]

Ahh well, that footage isn't spectacular.

[Gregjazz]

It's funny, because I've already seen that "recently released footage" a few years back. It was leaked and was on the internet.

All you see is in one frame a little white streak. Of course that's a plane!

[Barbarian]

Sorry to bump again, but thought the following recent News link fits in with this topic quite well:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4990686.stm