Unintentional music-copying

[deFineLicht]

I've been sitting for an hour or so composing music for a movieproject in school, but when I  finished I discovered something horrible. When I started I first sat at my piano trying to find a nice melody, and I did pretty quickly, so then I went over to my computer and started to arrange it(it was supposed to be a quite slow pianothing with some strings). I was pretty satisfied, so I shut down the program, and started to listen to music on iTunes instead. After I while the theme to the Pirates of the goddam-Caribbean came up and...well basicly I have copied the tune right of. Not intentionaly of course, but somwhere in my brain this tune existed, and when I started to play on the piano, I probably started with some familliar notes from that tune, and the just continued, thinking that I made it up right on the spot.
This isn't the first time this sort of thing happen either! Does this happen to everyone or is it just because I'm a bad musician? 

[auriond]

That happened to me once long ago, as a tiny little thing. It was during a piano lesson where I was given, as homework, the task of composing a simple tune. When I brought my work back the teacher played it out on the piano, and after a few bars she realised it sounded like either "Michael Row Your Boat Ashore" or "My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean" - one of those children's songs that have to do with water, I can't remember which. And she assumed I was plagarising. My defense, then as it is now, is that I internalised far too many children's songs as a kid.

[Nikolas]

Nope it happens to everyone!

I've had the same problem as well!

There is little you can do but be honest, do mention the "plagiarism" and do mention that it is unintentional...

[Phemar]

Happened to me before.

One time I thought up this cool little melody. And then a week later a song was heard on the radio -- Same melody!

My friend plays the trumpet and he composed this little piece. He brought it to school and showed me, so I played it out on guitar -- turns out he unintentionally did a remake of mary had a ittle lamb!!
He was like 'Dammit ...'

[Misj']

Hi,

This isn't the first time this sort of thing happen either! Does this happen to everyone or is it just because I'm a bad musician? 

The more you listen to music, the more you're influenced...those people who compose tend to have an interest in music as well, and they also tend to listen to other people's work. So it's basically intrinsic. The same happens when looking at someone elses drawing style (to much), you start to copy and incorporate (little) things.

But you're definatelly not the only one. "Go West" was published in 1979 by the Village People...and is basically a copy (or freak coincidence) of the Christian song 'Give Thanks' by Henry Smith (published one year earlier in 1978). But according to some, even the musical greats are not 'free of plagiarism'. According to this site: http://www.weetnet.nl/elise/elise.htm (sorry, in Dutch), the tune for Für Elise was originally written by Bach rather than Beethoven (just listen to the Midi/MP3 file). Is it true? - Maybe, maybe not...but fact is: no, you're not alone, and yes, it happens to everyone.

Misj'

[Lionmonkey]

Happened to me too a couple of time and not only in the music making. There's an old proverb: "Everything new is strongly forgotten old."

[Nikolas]

Hi,

The more you listen to music, the more you're influenced...those people who compose tend to have an interest in music as well, and they also tend to listen to other people's work. So it's basically intrinsic. The same happens when looking at someone elses drawing style (to much), you start to copy and incorporate (little) things.

Not exactly really. The more deeply you listen to music the best chances you have to be aware of what you're writing and avoid copying unintientionaly.

Now in tonal music, it's rather easy to fall in plagiarism, since it is rather limited. The more further you go and the more individual style you have, the best chance of not copying there are.

But you're definatelly not the only one. "Go West" was published in 1979 by the Village People...and is basically a copy (or freak coincidence) of the Christian song 'Give Thanks' by Henry Smith (published one year earlier in 1978). But according to some, even the musical greats are not 'free of plagiarism'. According to this site: http://www.weetnet.nl/elise/elise.htm (sorry, in Dutch), the tune for Füare Elise was originally written by Bach rather than Beethoven (just listen to the Midi/MP3 file). Is it true? - Maybe, maybe not...but fact is: no, you're not alone, and yes, it happens to everyone.

Misj'

Everyone copies, including the grand masters. I do recall (althouh I don't like quoting peoples sayings... but anyhow in this case it works fine) Stravinsky mentioning that
"Great composers don't borrow. They steal... or something to that meaning.

[EldKatt]

Hmm... The Füare Elise thing interested me, I checked it out a bit, and I've come to the preliminary conclusion that it seems to be a hoax.

The Dutch article cites no sources, and does not identify the work mentioned. I can find no other references to anything to do with "Philipp und Dirk". The score looks like a two-keyboard transcription of a solo concerto, and I've no intention to dig through all of Bach's solo concertos and concerto transcriptions now, but if this were actually in the body of Bach's works I think someone else would have noticed, the similarity being so obvious. Author "van Outweven" also does not exist in Google apart from this article.

Still, yeah. It happens a lot. You'll find a lot of fugues, by Bach and others, with themes more or less "stolen" (although nobody would've seen it like that back then) from other fugues. The first theme of the finale of Mozart's 41st symphony is also found in an earlier Haydn symphony. The first theme of the scherzo of Beethoven's 5th symphony is rather similar to that of the finale of Mozart's 40th, and Beethoven actually copied the latter theme in one of his sketchbooks from the time he was working on his 5th, so this is not likely to be coincidental. Nobody would've called this stealing, though--Mozart would probably just feel honored, had he known. Things worked differently back then.


[edit: The txt-style spelling thing on the forum insists on "F.ü.r." being spelled as "Füare". I find this amusing.]

[Misj']

Hi EldKatt

The Dutch article cites no sources, and does not identify the work mentioned.

And I do take it with a (very big) grain of salt. Still, the original post remided me of that site, so I thought to mention it. Personally I find it more likely that someone arranged Fur Elise in a Bach-style...Once heard a very nice Tango verson too (and prior to that, I once arranged a very bad Tango version myself). Anyway...

Hay Nikolas

Not exactly really. The more deeply you listen to music the best chances you have to be aware of what you're writing and avoid copying unintientionaly.

Also very true. Plus you have to realize that copying is something completely different from 'making something your own'. Simply put: not all stories with elves are copying the Lord of the Rings...even though they might use the same (or a similar) theme.

I do recall (althouh I don't like quoting peoples sayings... but anyhow in this case it works fine) Stravinsky mentioning that "Great composers don't borrow. They steal... or something to that meaning.

Or as the Blues Brothers put it  (and they werent' the first to say this): "Amatures imitate, professionals steal!" - The difference is actually, that the latter 'makes it his own'. And that's something every AGS-game-maker can learn from.

Misj'

[ambientcoffeecup]

Yeah, May as well bring this up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4KX7SkDe4Q&feature=related

and this:

http://www.spin.com/features/everybodystalkingabout/2006/06/060601_rhcp/