This is revolutionary, earth-shattering stuff!
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39114
This is really very wrong! I'm sure this wasn't inspired by the holy spirit. But I guess I should get used to it, as we are getting closer to the time of the anti-christ... :'(
I just hope no one is so foolish to actually use this "book".
I am.
W00T!
I read it.
I don't want to spoil the ending for everybody, but the guy dies in the end.
Well, maybe you should look beyond the headline and actually check out: http://one.gn.apc.org/Translation.htm
The article Migs quoted is based on a false perception of what the bible actually says about the subject anyway.
QuoteThis is really very wrong! I'm sure this wasn't inspired by the holy spirit. But I guess I should get used to it, as we are getting closer to the time of the anti-christ...
I just hope no one is so foolish to actually use this "book".
I wish no one was foolish enough to actually use
any Bible.
I like the new bible. It's funny.
wasn't the original bible full of orgies and killing and stuff anyway?
Quote from: BOYD1981 on Tue 29/06/2004 18:05:23
wasn't the original bible full of orgies and killing and stuff anyway?
You're thinking of those well-known top-shelf magazines "Repenthouse", "Amen only" and "Prayboy"...
actually, the bible does something much worse than this new fornacation promoting one does... it promotes religion
*Sigh*
I just thought it was funny. I didn't intend for this to turn into a Bible bash.
yeh but you might have known it would have because of all the godbotherers
You're right. I probably should have thought about that, but in my opinion just mentioning the word "Bible" shouldn't send any normal person into a hissyfit. There is such a thing as cordial disagreement with religious beliefs.
I think what this new translation needs to really catch on is Buddy Christ.
Quote from: Redwall on Tue 29/06/2004 19:56:33
I think what this new translation needs to really catch on is Buddy Christ.
WOO-HOO!
(http://mplex.ath.cx/photogallery/bigguybuddychrist.jpg)
You people are going to hell ;)
Does everybody here have some major issues about Christians?? You know, there are lots of things discussed here. Sex, porn, drugs and what not, and then somebody mentions religion and it's like some terrible taboo!Ã,Â
It's not like we're FORCING you to get offended.Ã, Don't click the button if you're just going to get offended.Ã, But you WANT to be offended so you can tell us Christians how wacky we are and how normal you are!!Ã,Â
Quote from: [lgm] on Wed 30/06/2004 14:14:38
You people are going to hell ;)
I'll see you there. ;)
Okay, enough. We've had so many discussions about religion. If you disagree with others' beliefs, please don't bash them.
Listen up everyone.
I think this is one of those two-to-tango type of deals. I think both sides are to blame when it comes to religious discussions.
You see, when someone mentions the word 'bible', the anti-Christians go crazy and start with the Jesus-mockings, etc (For example, this thread). Likewise, when someone makes a little joke about Jesus or God, the Christians on this forum get over-sensitive (and a recent example can be found here: http://www.agsforums.com/yabb/index.php?topic=14863.0)
This is what I think everyone should do:
CHILL OUT!
Anti-Christians, we get the point. You think the bible is full of rubbish. Fine. No need to go overboard in mocking a belief system that people adopt as a lifestyle. One or two subtle jokes are fine, but some of you go way over the top. It's unecessary. And besides, there's no need to verbally burn the bible. Hey, I'm not a Christian (far from it), but I've got a bible on my bookshelf. There are far worse books out there that people base religious lifestyles. Look at Dianetics, for example.
And Christians, we get it. You love God and Jesus. Good. But no need to get cranky whenever someone makes a small joke about God or Jesus. No need to keep reminding us that the worlds going to hell, etc, etc. Here's an idea for next time it happens: practice some tolerance. It's probably the most Christian thing to do. And sometimes jokes at God aren't personal attacks. Sometimes, they're just jokes and nothing more. Besides, I'm sure the Big Kahuna has a sense of humour (being all-mighty and all-powerful, he probably has the best sense of humour in the world). So, why not you guys?
So those are my thoughts: Chill! Take it easy! Relax, Cunningham!
You don't have to take all this so seriously. No need to go nuts when someone says "The bible has interesting stories". Likewise, no need to go crazy when someone says "God can't surf!".
Anyway, that's just my opinion.
Amen!
I get a little miffed when people mock the Bible or call the Bible and Religion rubbish without any backing to the claim.
But I try not to say anything... I want to defend my religion, but it's pointless to argue with it on the interent were ultimately nobody gives a damn. If we were having a discussion IRL, in a room.. I'd be knocking some heads together.
I guess I should say, have some respect for the ones who have devoted their life to God. Would you like it if someone totally belittled something you've believed and spent your whole life on? Don't think so.
Anyways.. There's my pennies.
Couldn't agree more, DG. I love the Bible as much as any Christian, but I recognize the value of diversity in religious beliefs; in fact, I consider our religious diversity one of the most important parts of humanity. There's also nothing wrong with laughing at oneself. That new translation of the Bible is hardly detrimental to Christianity, and I wager most Christians will steer clear of it.
Religion is a very personal thing, and I feel it's inappropriate to try to force others to adopt your viewpoints by silly argumentation. And I certainly don't tell people they're going to hell. I have enough flaws of my own to keep me occupied, so why worry about the supposed flaws of others?
The only thing I don't like is when people quickly dismiss religion with a wave of the hand and consider any religious person a short-minded imbecile. Some of the greatest thinkers in history have been religious, such as Plato, Thomas Aquinas, Al-Ghazali, Gandhi, Nagarjuna, et al.
Quote from: [lgm] on Wed 30/06/2004 18:14:44But I try not to say anything... I want to defend my religion, but it's pointless to argue with it on the interent were ultimately nobody gives a damn. If we were having a discussion IRL, in a room.. I'd be knocking some heads together.
I tend to agree. There are other forums for religious debate. I actually enjoy the occasional religious debate elsewhere, but I really don't think the AGS Forums are the place for it. We're adventure game hobbyists, not divinity school students.
Let's have a debate about double-posting instead ;) You obviously haven't noticed the new forum feature when composing a reply that all the stuff in the "Topic Summry" below your message window have an "Insert Quote" link...
Yes. I'm aware that I double-posted, but I clicked the Send button before I thought about it. I'm hellbound for sure now.
Quote from: Raggit on Wed 30/06/2004 15:37:19
Does everybody here have some major issues about Christians??
Yeah, they killed more people than Hilter.
Bt
But church music (pre 19th century) rocks, so it kind of balances the whole thing out.
When I said you all were going to hell.. That was a joke.. Just to clear that up.. lol
Quote from: Blackthorne519 link=topic=14999.msg184179#msg184179
Yeah, they killed more people than Hilter.
SInce Hilter killed no-one, that's quite easy, really.
Hitler, on the other hand...
I also don't think that Hitler killed anyone...
He killed Eva Braun and himself...
True, there is no actual proof that Hitler even ordered the killing of the people in concentration camps. I mean, I'm not saying that he didn't, but there is no concrete proof for it. And Hitler never actually killed anyone himself (I mean with his own hands).
Sorry, just thought I'd add that.......
EDIT - Redwall - there's no proof of that either :P I don't think they ever found the bodies.
Quote from: MrColossal on Wed 30/06/2004 21:07:36I also don't think that Hitler killed anyone...
Well ... his name is never on any of the documents involving the systematic murders of millions of jews but ...
Also, my theory is that Hitler killed his own neice.
He made it look like a suicide ... but I think he did it.Ã, He didn't approve of the guy she was bangin' and he was secretly in love with her.Ã, I think it was in Munich ...
"If I can't have her ..." type of thing.
And Eva Braun took the cyanide capsule and shot herself I thought? And they supposedly found the bodies, after they had been burned. Hitler didn't want his body strung up in public like his 'good buddy' Benito.
Okay, I just had to laugh about that part with the "simplified names" for Biblical characters.
...and then "dipped" instead of "baptized". Seriously, folks, I don't believe there was anything wrong with The Message, but this is just a bit too far. Okay, MUCH too far.
I hope it doesn't catch on. Probably the most it'll do is start yet another cult.
------------------------
As far as that "discussing religion" thing goes, I don't see what makes everyone go all wacko about it. Actually, I think it's more like "discussing Christianity", not just "discussing religion".
And why do people have such a negative reaction against discussion of Christianity? The answer would start a whole new argument that would eventually get locked by The Moderators.
Quote from: Migs on Wed 30/06/2004 18:27:58The only thing I don't like is when people quickly dismiss religion with a wave of the hand and consider any religious person a short-minded imbecile.Ã, Some of the greatest thinkers in history have been religious, such as Plato, Thomas Aquinas, Al-Ghazali, Gandhi, Nagarjuna, et al.
The thing is, that last bit doesn't really change anything. What it all boils down to is that atheists generally don't believe in god because no one, great thinker or not, has ever been able to give them a solid, objective reason why they *should* believe, or why it actually matters whether they do or don't in the first place.
When you looking at life from that perspective it's hard to understand how people can happily hold these extremely specific beliefs without any solid, objective reason at all, and frankly "these people are either deluded, or idiots. Or both" is quite an easy conclusion to jump to. I agree that a lot of atheists should probably be a bit more tactful and tolerant about the whole thing, though (including me).
Sorry, I know you don't want to start a discussion, but... I'm just an argumentitive jerk, I guess.
Quote from: Ghormak on Wed 30/06/2004 20:03:26
But church music (pre 19th century) rocks, so it kind of balances the whole thing out.
You are so right. I dig the masses, funeral chants and such. Anything by Handel or Haydn is great. My favorite...... Lacrymosa by Mozart..... man, it kills me.
Bt
Quote from: SSH on Wed 30/06/2004 20:41:12
Quote from: Blackthorne519 link=topic=14999.msg184179#msg184179
Yeah, they killed more people than Hilter.
SInce Hilter killed no-one, that's quite easy, really.
Hitler, on the other hand...
No I
meant Hilter! He's a baddass mofo!
;D
Quote from: PaulSC on Thu 01/07/2004 00:35:56
When you looking at life from that perspective it's hard to understand how people can happily hold these extremely specific beliefs without any solid, objective reason at all
But what solid reason do you have that there is no god?
Can we agree that modern science knows less than 1 percent of the known universe? The rest is inferred through looking at our part of the universe and saying "The rest of the universe must act this way also." [in an extremely simplified way]
Can you tell me without a shadow of a doubt that 500 million lightyears away there isn't a popsicle stand floating in space? And if so, how do you know this for sure?
e-dog
Which is why some science is flawed... I mean.. They've proven that something can't be created from nothing... So, uh.. Where did this supposed "goo" come from that us humans crawled out of?
You could list all these reasons and theories... But if they're physical things that created this goo; then where did THAT come from...
It keeps going... Ergo it's a flaw in Evolution... Ergo Evolution is a theory.
And to go along with this... Carbon dating is also a very flawed scientific THEORY... It's alot of guesswork and based off of equations and concepts that even themselves can't fully be proven to be 100% absolutely correct.
That's the thing about life... Not EVERYTHING can be a solid, known fact... If everything was certain, what fun would life be?
Christianity is based alot off of just having faith that God is actually there... So all these half baked scientific theories are thrown in to test it... At least that's my opinion.
Nobody knows for certain about Christianity... (Or any other religion, for that matter.) You can fight about it all you want.. But it all boils down to that fact.
Opinions are opinions... Never are they facts.
More pennies for the populous:)
Actually, the laws of conservation of energy allow that something can come from nothing, just so long as an equal amount of negative something also come from nothing at the same time, such that the net total of everything is still nothing. It's sneaky, but it works. That's currently the theory about how the universe came into being, all the energy in the universe is equal to all the negative (potential) energy. Right now, from all the calculations, it does appear that the net energy of the universe is about 0, it might as well not exist from an accounting prespective.
I converted to deism from christianity. Deists believe that god created everything but that he made it in such a way that its self regulating. He created us but doesnt interfere so theres no reason to pray etc...
Quote from: LostTraveler on Thu 01/07/2004 03:39:09
He created the US but doent interfere so theres no reason to pray etc...
DAMN RIGHT HE CREATED THE US!!!
WOOOO!!
ahem, anyway
oops, I ment us ;)
All of you, join me in agnosticism! I press my beliefs down your throat!
Yes, I agree that he created us. Go us.
Quote from: MrColossal on Thu 01/07/2004 02:27:03
But what solid reason do you have that there is no god?
Can we agree that modern science knows less than 1 percent of the known universe? The rest is inferred through looking at our part of the universe and saying "The rest of the universe must act this way also." [in an extremely simplified way]
Can you tell me without a shadow of a doubt that 500 million lightyears away there isn't a popsicle stand floating in space? And if so, how do you know this for sure?
e-dog
Maybe there’s a god, and maybe there’s a popsicle stand floating in space. But maybes are maybes - there’s no solid evidence to support either of those claims, so what reason is there for actively believing them?
The idea of that popsicle stand sounds crazy and unlikely to me, so I'm not gonna believe in it until someone actually finds it. In that case, though, whether it exists or not makes no difference to my life either way. But in the case of gods I’ve got a thousand different religions telling me I’ll be punished if I don’t believe - maybe I'll even have to suffer unimaginable pain for an infinite amount of time if I don’t. If people are going to start making claims like *that*, which turn the issue of whether or not I believe into a MAJOR issue, I think it’s fair to ask for a little solid proof before being forced to make a lifestyle decision that would change the course of my life. But they still can’t give any, so what else I’m I gonna do but dismiss them as empty threats and go back to happily not caring either way?
If you try to forget about your upbringing and build your understanding of the world from the ground up, *without* presupposing the existence of a god, there’s no particular reason to believe any one supernatural claim over any other, as far as I can tell. There’s just as much reason to assume that some long dead tribe on easter island stumbled on the one correct belief system as there is of any modern religious person (and frankly there’s no reason to assume either is correct).
In summary: I don’t believe anything without a decent reason. No one’s ever given me a decent reason to believe in a god or religion, so I don’t! Simple as that. And I'm not trying to force my opinions on anyone, I'm just trying to show why I think my way of looking at the universe is a pretty sensible one.
Nobody has ever given me a decent reason this world is real and not just the figment of my imagination. Maybe I'm God, and you are all my dream. Who would be able to tell the difference?
To all the God-bashers out there. There is NO SUCH THING as FACT! It is all beliefs.
I believe I exist, but I can't prove it. That all hinges on other beliefs, such as the belief that people really exist. What it all comes down to is the need to put what we fondly call "reality" into a system. Some people find this through religion, some through science.
There is no difference between the two, it's still beliefs.
Personally I keep my eyes, ears and mind open, trying to make sense of it in my own way.
Quote from: YOke on Thu 01/07/2004 12:51:14
To all the God-bashers out there. There is NO SUCH THING as FACT! It is all beliefs.
Is that a fact?
Quote from: SSH on Thu 01/07/2004 13:06:13
Quote from: YOke on Thu 01/07/2004 12:51:14
To all the God-bashers out there. There is NO SUCH THING as FACT! It is all beliefs.
Is that a fact?
No. Proves my point quite nicely, doesn't it? :)
Quote from: YOke on Thu 01/07/2004 12:51:14
Nobody has ever given me a decent reason this world is real and not just the figment of my imagination. Maybe I'm God, and you are all my dream. Who would be able to tell the difference?
To all the God-bashers out there. There is NO SUCH THING as FACT! It is all beliefs.
I believe I exist, but I can't prove it. That all hinges on other beliefs, such as the belief that people really exist. What it all comes down to is the need to put what we fondly call "reality" into a system. Some people find this through religion, some through science.
There is no difference between the two, it's still beliefs.
Personally I keep my eyes, ears and mind open, trying to make sense of it in my own way.
What if I believe you are wrong?
What if i believe you are wrong?
What if i believe you are wrong?
Quote from: YOke on Thu 01/07/2004 13:14:06
Quote from: SSH on Thu 01/07/2004 13:06:13
Quote from: YOke on Thu 01/07/2004 12:51:14
To all the God-bashers out there. There is NO SUCH THING as FACT! It is all beliefs.
Is that a fact?
No. Proves my point quite nicely, doesn't it? :)
I don't BELIEVE so.
Anyway, does this mean that we should set all the convicted people free since their convictions are just based on someone's beleifs, rather than facts?
Of course not. In practical terms, this philosophy is useless. When my daughter was just born, I don't think that she created the belief that her mother existed just to organsie reality into a system. Or maybe that expression on her face wasn't wind but rather existential angst?
there is no point arguing whether what we sense and observe is fact or belief. It could be taken either way as there is no proof of either. For the sake of sanity and balanced living, it is easier to believe that it is fact. Therefore the actual answer is inconsequential.
Belief in God could also be argued either way. There is no proof either way. Only BELIEF. One of the greatest stupidities of humanity is that it thinks it knows everything. Who is to say there is not a popsicle floating about somewhere in space? Or that there is or is no God? Or that what we observe and sense is fact or illusion?
Quote from: YOke on Thu 01/07/2004 12:51:14
Nobody has ever given me a decent reason this world is real and not just the figment of my imagination. Maybe I'm God, and you are all my dream. Who would be able to tell the difference?
To all the God-bashers out there. There is NO SUCH THING as FACT! It is all beliefs.
I believe I exist, but I can't prove it. That all hinges on other beliefs, such as the belief that people really exist. What it all comes down to is the need to put what we fondly call "reality" into a system. Some people find this through religion, some through science.
There is no difference between the two, it's still beliefs.
Personally I keep my eyes, ears and mind open, trying to make sense of it in my own way.
^^^ This seems fairly sound thinking, but stuff like the old "what if reality is a dream?" thing is yet another theory where all I can say is "There's no reason to assume this is true, and it probably won't affect my life as I experience it either way, so why worry about it?".
Scientific theories are observable and testable, and have practical value for us here on earth - for me, it generally makes sense to believe them, unless there's reason to think otherwise. In contrast, the issue of whether or not there is a god is apparently unobservable and untestable, and in the end has no practical relevance for my life here on earth that I can see.
To be honest, holding a bunch of arbitrary beliefs based on absolutely nothing does seem a little odd to me. But whatever floats your bike, I guess.
SSH: "Or maybe that expression on her face wasn't wind but rather existential angst?"
Ha! That was a good'n.
Quote from: PaulSC on Thu 01/07/2004 13:52:05
To be honest, holding a bunch of arbitrary beliefs based on absolutely nothing does seem a little odd to me. But whatever floats your bike, I guess.
I agree. That said; without the arbitrary beliefs we have nothing to check new information with. We are already laying a puzzle blindfolded. Without arbitrary beliefs we would be laying a puzzle blindfolded without knowing what a puzzle is or why we're trying to do it.
Quote from: Babloyi on Thu 01/07/2004 13:47:19
there is no point arguing whether what we sense and observe is fact or belief. It could be taken either way as there is no proof of either. For the sake of sanity and balanced living, it is easier to believe that it is fact. Therefore the actual answer is inconsequential.
Belief in God could also be argued either way. There is no proof either way. Only BELIEF. One of the greatest stupidities of humanity is that it thinks it knows everything. Who is to say there is not a popsicle floating about somewhere in space? Or that there is or is no God? Or that what we observe and sense is fact or illusion?
Exactly. To quote Quentin Tarantino in Four Rooms:
"The less declarative statements a man makes, the less apt is he to look foolish in retrospect."
I don't KNOW if there is a God or not, but I CHOOSE to like my life trying to live up to my own values that again are based on what I BELIEVE is important.
This is a circular argument, and the only conclusion I have been able to draw from it during all my years of pondering this and related questions are: "Being alive is funny!"
Quote from: MrColossal on Thu 01/07/2004 02:27:03
Can we agree that modern science knows less than 1 percent of the known universe?
I'd say 0,00000000000000000000000000000000000001%... even less. Infinity is quite big. There are probably hundreds of billions other religions out there.
This discussion reminds me much about Hitchikers guide to the galaxy, a book which, even though being only the imagination of the arthur, still makes you think about things.
42...
I find some of these modernizations silly. "Dipping"? I also think that names should never be translated. Well, I guess the message is the same...
Quote from: PaulSC on Thu 01/07/2004 00:35:56The thing is, that last bit doesn't really change anything. What it all boils down to is that atheists generally don't believe in god because no one, great thinker or not, has ever been able to give them a solid, objective reason why they *should* believe, or why it actually matters whether they do or don't in the first place.
When you looking at life from that perspective it's hard to understand how people can happily hold these extremely specific beliefs without any solid, objective reason at all, and frankly "these people are either deluded, or idiots. Or both" is quite an easy conclusion to jump to. I agree that a lot of atheists should probably be a bit more tactful and tolerant about the whole thing, though (including me).
Sorry, I know you don't want to start a discussion, but... I'm just an argumentitive jerk, I guess.
I'm not suggesting that atheists should believe in a Supreme Being just because some "smart guys" do.Ã, Religion is not a scientific endeavor, and I really don't think the two should be mixed.Ã, Some of the "Scientific Creation" and "Intelligent Design Theory" proponents are rather amusing to me.
Instead, I think religion is a very personal thing, one which people have to come to grips with themselves.Ã, One must ultimately have faith.Ã, But I vehemently disagree that religious people are necessarily irrational, as has been the common implication. Some of the philosophical arguments for the existence of God are outstandingly rational.Ã, Thomas Aquinas was one of the most profoundly rational thinkers who has ever lived.Ã, If Anselm's ontological argument isn't the purest form of rationality, I don't know what is.Ã, Even though many people, including myself, aren't really compelled by the argument, it's difficult to find the flawed logic in it, even after reading the thoughtful criticisms of Immanuel Kant et al.
Wouldn't it be nice if y'all would just shut the fuck up? ;)
Also, stop talking about my uncle Jesus. He doesn't need to be idolized/bitched at by any of you.
I was serious about the first sentence/question, though.
Quote from: God on Thu 01/07/2004 13:19:09
What if I believe you are wrong?
What if i believe you are wrong?
What if i believe you are wrong?
Then you'd be a pretty lousy diety, considering you're supposed to be omniscient!
WOO HOO!
(http://mplex.ath.cx/photogallery/bigguybuddychrist.jpg)
Bt
Quote from: Haddas on Thu 01/07/2004 14:17:09
This discussion reminds me much about Hitchikers guide to the galaxy, a book which, even though being only the imagination of the arthur, still makes you think about things.
Actually, I think the best reference is The Restaurant at the End of the Universe where the Man Who Rules The Universe doesn't think it exists.
"Fish come from far away, or some I'm told. Or so I imagine I'm told."
Now that's a good reference.
10 points
There's plenty of evidence that Christianity is the true. You people just don't want to see it.
'The heavens declare the majesty of the Lord
The skies proclaim the work of his hands.'
God's not going to force you into believing in Him, He's just going to put the evidence before you and let you, of your free will, decide.
Quote from: Geoffkhan on Fri 02/07/2004 21:01:48
There's plenty of evidence that Christianity is the true. You people just don't want to see it.
'The heavens declare the majesty of the Lord
The skies proclaim the work of his hands.'
God's not going to force you into believing in Him, He's just going to put the evidence before you and let you, of your free will, decide.
Oh BLAH BLAH BLAH!
Like there isn't other planets with other skies........
God..... it's such an egocentric human construct..... it's so selfish. The creator, a diety, may or may not exist, but we certainly created 'GOD' so we wouldn't feel so damn lonley and small in the universe.... I mean, shit, up until 500 years ago it was FACT that WE were the center of the universe.....
Bt
And it was also FACT the Earth was flat...
Every questionable theory in science now are "FACTS" cause nothing has come around to disprove them yet.. So maybe in 400 years, something will come along to disprove all these theories..
But nothing more than other theories have come along to disprove anything in the Bible yet.. unless I'm mistaking.
Quote from: Blackthorne519 on Sat 03/07/2004 04:28:45
God..... it's such an egocentric human construct..... it's so selfish.
Isn't the existence of God just the opposite of being selfish, though?
You also assume that God is manmade. There are other gods that are manmade, including Buddha, Allah, etc., but the reason man created them is because we seek religion.
Everyone has a God-shaped hole in his heart.
And Blackthorne, don't think that you're "not religious" or anything. Being "not religious" is your religion.
Threads like this make me sad. :(
what is the point of fighting about this? I know that "Making someone see the light" may be a "noble mission", but the people here who will not care about any of that. And there is no need to make God jokes that provoke that behaviour just because they are god jokes
I'm going to repeat my message from the first page of this thread so that all people, both Christian, Atheist, Buddhist, Jewish, whatever, can take note:
CHILL OUT!
I mean, what exactly are we trying to prove here? God does exist? God doesn't exist? Both are pretty much impossible to prove.
So, quit with the lines like "God..... it's such an egocentric human construct..... it's so selfish" or "don't think that you're "not religious" or anything. Being "not religious" is your religion." It's just pretty much provoking each other.
Have a serious discussion, yes. But quit with the taunting.
Listen, is anyone here is REALLY that desperate to prove or disprove the existence of God? Okay. Borrow a pistol off an NRA buddy and plug one in your skull. Then find out what you need to know, posses the body of Patrick Swayze and come tell me your findings. I expect a 30-page written report. In triplicate!
Thank-you, DG.
I could not agree more.
On a slightly defensive note, I hope I'm not one of these people being labelled a 'god-botherer' (as well as some less attractive terms). I just find it annoying how some people try to turn relgious discussions back on me. ie:
person: God sux0rs and we all know that rain is really god masturbating and then ejaculating all over the earth. Eva heard of da SECOND CUMMING? HAHAHAHA!
me: just so you know, I'm a christian. It doesn't particularly bother me what you post, but just so you don't deliberately try to start provoking me... you have been warned :)
person: shut up gaybo! I was just joking around! Why do you have to take EVERY SINGLE JOKE and turn it into a f***ing religious debate, dickbag. I don't want to hear your religious crap so don't force me to listen!
me: as long as you don't force me to listen to potentially-offending material of your own.
person: God will let you rot in hell you ball-sucker.
me: um... that's nice.
but yes, anyway, back on topic. Thank you dg. Discussion closed
I think religious discussions are fun and often quite interesting - nothing to get upset about, as long as people are fairly polite. To be honest, it kind of gets on my nerves when people try to stop discussions just because they don't like people discussing certain subjects. 'Course, if you think we're getting too off topic I suppose that's fair enough - I suppose we could always start a proper religious discussion thread for people who want to talk about it?
Quote from: Geoffkhan on Sat 03/07/2004 06:07:26
You also assume that God is manmade. There are other gods that are manmade, including Buddha, Allah, etc., but the reason man created them is because we seek religion.
Everyone has a God-shaped hole in his heart.
*sigh* Unless you can show otherwise, you have exactly the same amount of objective evidence to prove your god as they have to prove theirs, and that amount is this: zero. I heard a good saying recently that fits here pretty nicely: "If you can tell me why you dismiss all other gods, I'll tell you why I dismiss yours".
Just a little thing: Christians place the bible at the centre of their belief system, but the funny thing is how small a part the bible truly plays in their beliefs. If the bible was truly an accurate guide on how to lead an objectively 'good' life and find salvation, then *anyone* could read it and understand perfectly, and all Christians would have identical values. Instead, every Christian has a slightly different interpretation - every Christian is effectively a denomination unto themselves, *unless* they choose to abandon their own interpretation and follow someone else's. If a person has enough influence to convince a lot of other Christians to follow their particular interpretation, then lo! You've got yourself yet another new branch of Christianity.
The bible is like a blank slate that can be twisted to fit almost any persons personal beliefs if they really want it to, and so despite what they like to think, Christianity isn't doing a terribly good job of showing people the 'true path' – they're as conflicted as anybody! You've got Christians who hate homosexuals, Christians who *are* homosexuals, Christians who think money is the root of all evil, Christians who think Jesus would be a capitalist, Christians who think the Iraq war was wrong, Christians who think the Iraq war was right etc etc etc, and EVERY ONE of them believes they're the ones who got everything right and are going to heaven. Ha!
In summary: The nature of your religious beliefs has every bit as much to do with your cultural background and upbringing as it has with that divinely inspired little book. After all, it's a good bet that your average church in the middle ages would be happy to condemn just about every modern Christian to hell for being sinful monsters. In fact, just reading an English bible translation would probably be more then enough to condemn you to the good old 'lake of fire'. But of course, modern Christians don't care about that- after all, they're the ones who've got the whole "how to get to heaven" thing 100% right, right?
Quote from: Geoffkhan on Sat 03/07/2004 06:07:26
Quote from: Blackthorne519 on Sat 03/07/2004 04:28:45
God..... it's such an egocentric human construct..... it's so selfish.
Everyone has a God-shaped hole in his heart.
And Blackthorne, don't think that you're "not religious" or anything. Being "not religious" is your religion.
G,
I appreciate the fact that in spite of it all, you are trying to do good, and believe in something. I however, do not have a God Shaped hole in my heart. I am comfortable with my own existance simply for what it is; I need no esoteric spirtiual reasons for my existance. I just am, and I'm happy that way. I love life, I love the people in it. I don't need some silly belief in a diety to make my life feel more complete. But that's just me - I'm content with simply living, needing no greater reason than that. I don't crusade the anti-religion crusade, unless it's in my face or there is forum to discuss it. I wouldn't run into a crowd, shout "All you God worshipping nuts IS crazy!!!!!!". Truly deep spirtualism, for me, comes from being human. Simply. I also agree, DG, that chilling out is a good idea. Proving or disproving God's existance IS futile; it's a personal matter. So, I won't tell you he doesn't exist if you don't tell me he does. Perhaps we should ALL remember we are people, and that we should care and be courteous to one another.
Bt
Quote from: Blackthorne519 on Sat 03/07/2004 15:31:38
Quote from: Geoffkhan on Sat 03/07/2004 06:07:26
Quote from: Blackthorne519 on Sat 03/07/2004 04:28:45
God..... it's such an egocentric human construct..... it's so selfish.
Everyone has a God-shaped hole in his heart.
And Blackthorne, don't think that you're "not religious" or anything. Being "not religious" is your religion.
G,
Ã, Ã, I appreciate the fact that in spite of it all, you are trying to do good, and believe in something.Ã, I however, do not have a God Shaped hole in my heart.Ã, I am comfortable with my own existance simply for what it is; I need no esoteric spirtiual reasons for my existance.Ã, I just am, and I'm happy that way.Ã, I love life, I love the people in it.Ã, I don't need some silly belief in a diety to make my life feel more complete.Ã, But that's just me - I'm content with simply living, needing no greater reason than that.Ã, I don't crusade the anti-religion crusade, unless it's in my face or there is forum to discuss it.Ã, I wouldn't run into a crowd, shout "All you God worshipping nuts IS crazy!!!!!!".Ã, Truly deep spirtualism, for me, comes from being human.Ã, Simply. I also agree, DG, that chilling out is a good idea.Ã, Proving or disproving God's existance IS futile; it's a personal matter.Ã, So, I won't tell you he doesn't exist if you don't tell me he does.Ã, Perhaps we should ALL remember we are people, and that we should care and be courteous to one another.
Bt
Don't get me wrong, though. I'm not trying to "force my beliefs on you". I'm merely presenting possibilities for you to consider. I want to let you come to your own conclusion whether God exists or not, but you must be open-minded enough to consider what I say.
Everyone has a God, by the way. Your God could be not believing in God -- atheism. That's your religion.
I'm glad for you that you are content with your beliefs. So you're completely happy? Completely at peace?
Quote from: Geoffkhan on Sat 03/07/2004 20:40:56
Everyone has a God, by the way. Your God could be not believing in God -- atheism. That's your religion.
Not exactly. An agnostic doesn't have such "god" - not one of believing any more than of non-believing.
I've not been here for long, and my opinion probably means nothing to anybody, but reading through this discussion, I'd just like to say a few really fast things.
If you believe in God, then you do. If you don't believe in God, then you don't. I do. And I believe that we all have our own free will to decide. I believe that God created us with this free will.
You have the power to accept or reject God. If you reject Him and eventually change your opinions and start to gain an interest in Him, then you can make that change. If you believe in God and for some reason, want to convert to athiesm, then you can make that change. It's what free will is all about. There's no need to bash each other. (In fact, on a side note, it's sort of pointless to bash a Christian, what with the whole bit about Beattitudes and martyrdom, don'tcha think?)
What it boils down to for me, is this: if God doesn't exist, when I die, I lose nothing. But if I was an athiest, and if God does exist, then when I die I lose it all. What do you have to lose in Christianity? I don't know, and I don't expect an answer -- rhetorical question. I've never understood why anybody WOULDN'T want grace, but that's just my personal opinion. Again, free will -- I'm sure all athiests, agnostics, and non-Christians here have a reasoning, but personally, I'd rather be happy while I'm here with God. And if I am wrong and there is no God, how will I know? I'll die and that'll be it. At least I had peace while I was alive.
Okay, I said a few really fast things, but this got kinda drawn out. I don't mean to offend anybody, and I don't think I did -- at least I hope not. It's just all a matter of what we each want to believe. Just be happy while you're here; the world's about to end in twelve minutes.
Here, have a few pints.
Quote from: KingBagel on Sun 04/07/2004 01:28:38
What it boils down to for me, is this: if God doesn't exist, when I die, I lose nothing. But if I was an athiest, and if God does exist, then when I die I lose it all. What do you have to lose in Christianity?
There's thousands of other religions too. What if they're right? You'd be damned for not believing in their teachings (or, worshipping a false god). Even if one of all the religions would happen to be right, you have tiny little chance of choosing the correct one.
The world isn't filled with just christians and atheists.
I never said they were the only two religions out there. But what can you gain if you believe in nothing? That's my whole point.
Quote from: KingBagel on Sun 04/07/2004 01:53:32
But what can you gain if you believe in nothing? That's my whole point.
Personally, not having to build my world on absolute truths of religion or science gives me a peace of mind :). As for afterlife gambling, you probably don't lose anything by taking your chances with one specific religion. Then again, maybe, say, Allah exists and lets in (the paradise) those who didn't deny him, muslims and agnostics.
In the end, we choose to believe whatever we need to believe in order to make sense of life, universe and everything. For some people it's some religion, for some it's science. And then there's some who don't have the need to believe either way.
As for the original topic, I think promoting fornication is always a great thing, whether it's in the bible or whereever.
Yes, there are millions of religions out there, so you ask the question, "how can I know which one is true?" (following KingBagel's logic where it's pointless to not believe in some sort of God)
I incourage you -- if God exists, He will answer your prayers.
Here's a little challenge for the religious:
Place yourself in the position of an objective agnostic - a person with no biases for or against any particular religion or religious organisation. Then, try to build up a case for why your personal favourite religion is a more credible proposition then any other. Make sure every piece of evidence stands up in comparison to corresponding evidence from other religions (e.g. citing subjective religious experiences as evidence will not necessarily count, as such experiences have been shown to occur almost equally throughout members of all religions – and even regularly among the non-religious - only the interpretation tends to change).
Until religious people can do this, they should lose all privileges for suggesting people of other beliefs are wrong or irrational, in my view.
PaulSC, ditto try and prove there isn't a god. You can't prove it either way. If someone did PROVE it then all religions would just disappear. It's not about proof, don't you get it.
However, there is still such a thing as evidence. I can cite as evidence that God answered my prayer on such-and-such a thing. You may belive that that is just a coincidence, or I'm lying, or whatever, but it's still evidence. The dictioanry says enidevce is "Something indicative; an outward sign". It doesn't mean it is proof. Don't get the two confused.
NB my point is linguistic rathern than relgious, here
Quote from: Geoffkhan on Sat 03/07/2004 20:40:56
Don't get me wrong, though. I'm not trying to "force my beliefs on you". I'm merely presenting possibilities for you to consider. I want to let you come to your own conclusion whether God exists or not, but you must be open-minded enough to consider what I say.
Everyone has a God, by the way. Your God could be not believing in God -- atheism. That's your religion.
I'm glad for you that you are content with your beliefs. So you're completely happy? Completely at peace?
Haha, so my god is having no god? Exactly how do you come by that logic? I never did really understand that. The problem is that you have little or no understanding of exactly what science is and how it works. It isn't a belief system, and scientists don't believe in every theory there is. They're theories, which have possibilities of being true, and if they are proven beyond a doubt then they cease to be theories. They say, "How did this happen? Well maybe it was this.. or this.."
The very definition of atheism is the lack of belief in a deity. ANY diety. That means no god whatsoever, no worshipping satan, no worshipping god.
I don't have a credit card either, so I guess my credit card is not having a credit card.
Quote from: shbazjinkens on Mon 05/07/2004 15:57:25
Haha, so my god is having no god? Exactly how do you come by that logic? I never did really understand that. The problem is that you have little or no understanding of exactly what science is and how it works. It isn't a belief system, and scientists don't believe in every theory there is. They're theories, which have possibilities of being true, and if they are proven beyond a doubt then they cease to be theories. They say, "How did this happen? Well maybe it was this.. or this.."
I don't agree with saying that about everyone who isn't religious either. I have, however, come across people who are
very aggressive about these matters, whose fervour for spreading their message of atheistic salvation doesn't fall short of, say, Jehova's Witnesses' efforts by all that much - the chief difference being that they're usually not organized, and I can't recall ever hearing of such people coming to people's houses about it. Still, it's certainly appropriate for these.
However, I think you're missing the point of the science/religion thing, which is that there isn't one. It makes little sense to yell "Science! Science! Occam's Razor!" at religious beliefs unless they cross a certain line - if Peary's expedition to the North Pole had seriously looked for Santa's workshop, that would be quite deserving of your ridicule. If Gagarin's comment about not seeing God in space had been caused by surprise that this was so, you'd have any amount of justification you could possibly want to point and laugh. You can scratch your head at the people who seriously think they've found Noah's Ark, and at the medieval funnymen who burned "witches" and whatnot.
But religious beliefs that aren't mere superstitions about the physical world should not be confused with these, but should be taken a little more seriously - though whether you have anything in that direction or not is your affair, and I for my part don't mind if you poke a little fun at the mythology that is linked to or part of my beliefs. The most important of these is that God isn't a heartless jerk, everything else follows from that.
Quote from: Migs on Wed 30/06/2004 18:32:59
Quote from: [lgm] on Wed 30/06/2004 18:14:44But I try not to say anything... I want to defend my religion, but it's pointless to argue with it on the interent were ultimately nobody gives a damn. If we were having a discussion IRL, in a room.. I'd be knocking some heads together.
I tend to agree.Ã, There are other forums for religious debate.Ã, I actually enjoy the occasional religious debate elsewhere, but I really don't think the AGS Forums are the place for it.Ã, We're adventure game hobbyists, not divinity school students.
i agree with igm and migs in every way but thats it i am not getting mixed up in this anymore just thought i should give my opinion
Quote from: PaulSC on Sun 04/07/2004 14:09:35
Here's a little challenge for the religious:
Place yourself in the position of an objective agnostic - a person with no biases for or against any particular religion or religious organisation. Then, try to build up a case for why your personal favourite religion is a more credible proposition then any other. Make sure every piece of evidence stands up in comparison to corresponding evidence from other religions (e.g. citing subjective religious experiences as evidence will not necessarily count, as such experiences have been shown to occur almost equally throughout members of all religions â€" and even regularly among the non-religious - only the interpretation tends to change).
Until religious people can do this, they should lose all privileges for suggesting people of other beliefs are wrong or irrational, in my view.
I think temporarily placing yourself in another's position is an excellent way to approach other religious perspectives.Ã, There's a similar example, related by Krister Stendahl, the Lutheran Bishop of Stockholm and former dean of Harvard Divinity School.Ã, He once outlined three rules on how to approach another's religion.Ã, They may seem fairly obvious, but are often ignored nonetheless:
(1)
If you want to learn about a religion, ask the adherents of the religion, not its enemies.Ã, It only makes sense.Ã, After all, adherents are the authorities on what they themselves believe.Ã, if you want to learn about plumbing, you ask your plumber, not your auto mechanic.
(2)
Don't compare your best with their worst.Ã, For example, Christians believe in loving everyone, but those awful Muslim terrorists in Afghanistan hate everyone.Ã, That's not a correct comparison.Ã, Instead, compare Christian terrorists to Muslim terrorists.Ã, You should compare the ideal in one faith to the ideal in another.Ã, Compare the Christian who lives the life of love to the Muslim who lives the life of love.
(3)
Leave room for "holy envy."Ã, Holy envy is looking at another faith and saying, "Gosh, that's such an awesome doctrine they have.Ã, I wish my religion had it."Ã, That's not saying you have to believe what the religion teaches, just that you admire it.Ã, For example, one can admire the ritualistic aspect of Catholic mass without being Catholic, and even wish their church had more ritual to it.
Quote from: PaulSC on Sun 04/07/2004 14:09:35
Here's a little challenge for the religious:
Place yourself in the position of an objective agnostic - a person with no biases for or against any particular religion or religious organisation. Then, try to build up a case for why your personal favourite religion is a more credible proposition then any other. Make sure every piece of evidence stands up in comparison to corresponding evidence from other religions (e.g. citing subjective religious experiences as evidence will not necessarily count, as such experiences have been shown to occur almost equally throughout members of all religions â€" and even regularly among the non-religious - only the interpretation tends to change).
Until religious people can do this, they should lose all privileges for suggesting people of other beliefs are wrong or irrational, in my view.
What about people who
were atheists? There are people who used to believe God doesn't exist. They used to think there is no evidence of His existance and they mocked Christians. Then, something happened and they are christians now and they feel stupid for not understanding earlier.
Like what Geoffkhan said, here IS a God and there IS evidence. You just don't see that evidence or simply don't want to. When I became a christian, I answered everything to myself. If I give you the answer to any question you have, you won't find it logical
A christian who becomes an atheist was never a true christian, but there are people who
were atheists with strong anti-christian feelings, but now are
real christians.
So don't say there are christians who don't understand atheists, because a lot of them do. It's the atheists who don't understand Christians.
Quote from: Guybrush Peepwood on Wed 07/07/2004 12:31:18So don't say there are christians who don't understand atheists, because a lot of them do. It's the atheists who don't understand Christians.
I say: steady on with the HUGE generalizations there, Peepwood.
PaulSC.. Your generalization about Christian religions and branches isn't very justified.. I mean.. What the heck does the War in Iraq have to do with applying the Bible to ones life., other than it being a POSSIBILITY of the apocolypse..
Like I said in another post.. It's not about religion for Christians.. You can be a methodist, baptist, presbyterian, whatever... And still go into heaven.. All the Bible says is that you have to believe in God, have faith in him, love him and live for him. It doesn't say you HAVE to be in ANY religion.. It doesn't say what methods or rituals you have to follow or do.. You don't even have to go to church on a regular basis to get into heaven.. That's the beauty of Christianity, it still recognises your free will!
Anyways.. Like it's been said before.. Noone can ever be proved right or wrong.. That's not what I'M trying to do, anyways.. I'm just trying to open your eyes to other ideas than your own. It's okay to be wrong sometimes. I know I've been wrong before.
I have a brilliant idea. How about we all just take a deap breath, agree that you are right, (you being, whoever is reading this post at this time) everyone else is wrong, and leave it at that. We can all stop posting, try and regain a little respect for the people we disagree with again and let this thread die a long, slow, horrible death as it sinks to the bottom of the list [page 96 :P] Who is with me? *gets bombarded by things thrown at him from the angry mob*
Quote from: Guybrush Peepwood on Wed 07/07/2004 12:31:18
Quote from: PaulSC on Sun 04/07/2004 14:09:35
Here's a little challenge for the religious:
Place yourself in the position of an objective agnostic - a person with no biases for or against any particular religion or religious organisation. Then, try to build up a case for why your personal favourite religion is a more credible proposition then any other. Make sure every piece of evidence stands up in comparison to corresponding evidence from other religions (e.g. citing subjective religious experiences as evidence will not necessarily count, as such experiences have been shown to occur almost equally throughout members of all religions â€" and even regularly among the non-religious - only the interpretation tends to change).
Until religious people can do this, they should lose all privileges for suggesting people of other beliefs are wrong or irrational, in my view.
What about people who were atheists? There are people who used to believe God doesn't exist. They used to think there is no evidence of His existance and they mocked Christians. Then, something happened and they are christians now and they feel stupid for not understanding earlier.
Like what Geoffkhan said, here IS a God and there IS evidence. You just don't see that evidence or simply don't want to. When I became a christian, I answered everything to myself. If I give you the answer to any question you have, you won't find it logical
A christian who becomes an atheist was never a true christian, but there are people who were atheists with strong anti-christian feelings, but now are real christians.
So don't say there are christians who don't understand atheists, because a lot of them do. It's the atheists who don't understand Christians.
I agree with this.
Also, the evidence for God existing is only availible to those who search for it. God's not going to pound you on the head with it. That's what's so beautiful about the free will he gave us.
To the people who keep trying to put a stop to this discussion: if you don't like discussing this stuff, maybe you should just stop reading the thread?
One little thing: I've never claimed to be right about anything, pretty much all I've done here is ask people why I should accept that
they're right.
SSHQuotePaulSC, ditto try and prove there isn't a god. You can't prove it either way. If someone did PROVE it then all religions would just disappear. It's not about proof, don't you get it.
However, there is still such a thing as evidence. I can cite as evidence that God answered my prayer on such-and-such a thing. You may belive that that is just a coincidence, or I'm lying, or whatever, but it's still evidence.Ã, The dictioanry says enidevce is "Something indicative; an outward sign". It doesn't mean it is proof. Don't get the two confused.
I never asked for "proof", and I never said there isn't a God. Like I said before, I've hardly made any positive "this is the way it is" statements at all, if any. All I've asked for is to hear a sensible reason why the claims of any one religion can be considered more valid then any other to an impartial observer.
The reason I don't generally accept claims such as your prayer example as solid evidence in favour of any one religion is because, as I said, people from pretty much every religion make identical claims. What reason do I have for accepting one claim over all of the others? They all look the same to that impartial person.
The main reason I asked the question in my last post is because I find it arrogant and hypocritical for people to accuse other people of being irrational/worshiping false gods etc (which has been done in this very thread), when they themselves are completely unable to justify their belief when pushed about the issue.
Guybrush Peepwood:
QuoteWhat about people who were atheists? There are people who used to believe God doesn't exist. They used to think there is no evidence of His existance and they mocked Christians. Then, something happened and they are christians now and they feel stupid for not understanding earlier.
Like what Geoffkhan said, here IS a God and there IS evidence. You just don't see that evidence or simply don't want to. When I became a christian, I answered everything to myself. If I give you the answer to any question you have, you won't find it logical
This doesn't change anything. I know full well that religious people believe what they believe very strongly, but that doesn't give me any reason to assume that what they believe is right. What makes you think we can trust our own senses?
Just a little general point: believing in God and believing in Christianity are very different things. The concept of 'God' in no way presupposes the Christian concepts of Heaven and Hell, divine intervention etc. Proving or disproving the "God" concept is very difficult, if not imposible. Many aspects of Christianity, on the other hand,
can in theory be proven or disproven, as the bible makes numerous claims that God has made a great deal of observable impact on the world. Apparently at one stage he
was perfectly willing to pound people over the head with evidence of his existence.
[lgm]:
QuotePaulSC.. Your generalization about Christian religions and branches isn't very justified.. I mean.. What the heck does the War in Iraq have to do with applying the Bible to ones life., other than it being a POSSIBILITY of the apocolypse..
Like I said in another post.. It's not about religion for Christians.. You can be a methodist, baptist, presbyterian, whatever... And still go into heaven.. All the Bible says is that you have to believe in God, have faith in him, love him and live for him. It doesn't say you HAVE to be in ANY religion.. It doesn't say what methods or rituals you have to follow or do.. You don't even have to go to church on a regular basis to get into heaven.. That's the beauty of Christianity, it still recognises your free will!
But that's just your personal interpretation - there are plenty of Christians who wouldn't accept that viewpoint at all. If you were born in the middle ages - even if you were still a Christian with the same general fountation to your faith - there's a good chance your beliefs would be quite radically different to the ones you hold now. There's probably even a decent chance that the Middle Ages you would actively condemn the beliefs of the 21st century you.
This is because, as I said, a person's beliefs seem to be crafted as much by their culture and upbringing as they are crafted by their 'divine' texts. The fact that people can hold such dramatically contrastic beliefs and opinions - all of which supposedly based on the same one religious text -Ã, makes me doubt the idea that any one religious text can be considered a definitive source of objective truth and morality.
QuoteAnyways.. Like it's been said before.. Noone can ever be proved right or wrong.. That's not what I'M trying to do, anyways.. I'm just trying to open your eyes to other ideas than your own. It's okay to be wrong sometimes. I know I've been wrong before.
I'm perfectly willing to admit when I'm wrong, but no one's given me a reason to assume anything I've posted here *is* wrong - if only because most of my posts have been questions and observations rather then definitive statements. Seriously, if i'm absolutely wrong about something, feel free to explain exactly how. I'm all for trying to understand religious ideas - that's why I keep asking so many questions!
Don't let me down, loves!
WOO HOO!
(http://mplex.ath.cx/photogallery/bigguybuddychrist.jpg)
Bt
Quote from: PaulSC on Wed 07/07/2004 20:27:58
To the people who keep trying to put a stop to this discussion: if you don't like discussing this stuff, maybe you should just stop reading the thread?
I actually didnt' read most of the thread, save for the last page. And I don't exactly intend on participating in the debat....which mind you, is NOT the original purpose of this thread. If any of you remember, the author posted an artical he found amussing and wanted to share. Since then, the entire discussion has shifted not about the artical, but about what and who is right and wrong about religion.
People have been discussing religion since it was created, and people have been reforming it ever since the day after it was created. Everyone has an opinion about it, I'm sure. And if they don't, they should. Because it is, I agree, a very important topic. However, we can debate and curse and accuse and object on the subject of religion for hours, weeks and years until we fade away to dust. But you see, we are all just making the same points that have been made time and time again by those who debated before us.
I don't think anyone here is about to stand up and say, "Holy Crud! Your absolutly right. How foolish of my to think I was right, when it is perfectly clear your view makes more sense. Thank you for showing me the light!" Instead, I think people are starting to get angry and a little feirce. However, I may be wrong about that. Thats the only reason I suggested to end the thread. However, if that isn't the case, then by all means. Continue the debate. Thought I still do not see the point of it.
[Edit: Meh. After I posted I thought it wouldn't be right to post my opinion without reading everything. :S So I went back and read the whole thread (my head hurts now) and still agree with the points I states above. I also noted that a few other people suggested the same thing]
PaulSC, One thing you missed is: No one is trying to push their beliefs on you! You keep telling them not to, but so far no one has. There has been (Thankfully) no pushing of beliefs yet, only discussion, to clarify what people themselves believe. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, as long as it does not resort to name calling and insults. Nobody is asking anyone to accept their beliefs. They are just stating what they believe is right. There is also no point in attempting to disprove someones beliefs, because, obviously, they think they know something you don't. Be this the clarity of God, or the Clarity of science, or the Clarity of both combined. It would be so much better if all practised some tolerance for others beliefs.
No, no no no no.....What is it with you guys? I am Christian, but I'm not trying to inflict my christianity upon you guys, believe what you want because I know that however hard I try, I can't change your religion. I may change your opinion, but not your religion.
No-one asked for a religious debate, what we asked for was a nice BIBLE discussion...
Now discuss...
Quote from: PaulSC on Wed 07/07/2004 20:27:58
The main reason I asked the question in my last post is because I find it arrogant and hypocritical for people to accuse other people of being irrational/worshiping false gods etc (which has been done in this very thread), when they themselves are completely unable to justify their belief when pushed about the issue.
So basically you beleive that people should be allowed to believe anything except that other people are wrong? I always find that people who complain about having beliefs pushed down their throat have this beleif themselves and they like to push it down the throat of Christians, Muslims, etc.