New music by me!

[ManicMatt]

Hey guys! My new music is up and ready to play!

www.myspace.com/manicmatt3uk



Let me know what you think either there or on here!

Yes, swear word avoiding people should avoid "manipulator"

[Helm]

Hello ManicMatt, I listed to your music. It's not my type of thing so maybe my point of view isn't very useful to you. This reminds me of NIN, only more amateurly done, and I don't really like NIN to begin with so again, maybe my opinion on this one is worthless.

Manipulator suffers from disjointed shifts, a wondering melody that doesn't arrive at some sort of point, and in my opinion, bad lyrics. The vocal attempt is overdone and not rhythmically sound, and that drove me to almost give up, but I endured.

And yes, Same Skin is better, as far as rhythm and drive goes, the lyrics again, I find derivative and badly written. Lots of distortion on an empty production job just makes me think of a less ear-shattering Whitehouse without any of the class, and Whitehouse aren't all about class, so you know...

There is always Hope, well I guess you really really like NIN, don't you? But you see, whereas I don't mind an artist bearing superficial similarities with another (as you do), when there's nothing more to it than this similarity it gets kind of awkward. Chorus annoys, and not in the 'GOD THIS IS SO INTENS' type of good annoy, but in the 'these vocals are overmixed and out of tune' way. Especially by the second time the chorus comes in am really contemplating stopping listening. But I endure.

Warmth: You need to learn to use small reverbs to make sterile pad washes feel more natural. Extremely out of tune singing and annoying OONTZ OONTZ kick drum. For the life of me I can't figure out how this could be convinicing! I guess if it was very professionably done it would be aurally tolerable, but still awful in WHAT IT SAYS. It would say exactly what NIN say, and I personally find their lyrics unconvincing on all levels too. Some extra vocals are overmixed again.

You've mimicked the stylistics of other more successful arists here, and the mimicking isn't something to write home about, in my opinion. When -and I'm sure this will happen if you continue making music- your mimicking of the stylistics is stronger, then you should discover the difference between stylistics and aesthetics. Your music right now is coherent only in that it is consistently bad, whereas you should strive to instill within it the honesty that real people have, no manufactured so called 'industrial' superstars, and a clarity of vision that comes from THE RISK, the desire to communicate this honesty. Right now it sounds like - because for all I know these lyrics are amazingly real to you, how knows?- like formulaic aping of a bad formula to begin with.

Sorry if this is harsh. And sorry if I don't have much good to say about the music to counteract the bad, but I cannot find the good, in this case, besides base 'it's good that you're making something of your time' bullshit that would only insult your intelligence. In fact, I think you should, if you desire to make a professional effort of this, either reconsider the foundations of your approach, or give up altogether.

I suggest you listen to Einsturzende Neubauten and Coil and NON and Throbbing Gristle before you so happily call what you've made any sort of 'industrial' music. If you can't be bothered to find any choice tracks, I'll be happy to upload for you.

[Nikolas]

First of all : WOW

7th album? That's a lot of music and a lot of time.... WOW Well done for that...

Helm (and everybody else, not pointing at helm in particular, cause actually I'm really sure that helm knows): There was bound to be a huge difference between NIN and Matts music. Matts music (unless he spends another 50,000 GBP (just a number at almost random)), will always sound amateur. Home studios, the cheap ones, only take you this far... I mean no matter how you or companies try a software guitar amp emulator (NI, Waves etc...) won't sound the same as having 10 amps in the room and playing with the mics and everything else. The same goes with drums, no matter how cool or good is drums from Hell, having a good drum booth with a good enginer will sound better in the end (and at least 8 mics...)

So now to Matts' music:

Matt, you know that I like NIN and I liked your other stuff. This time I found your music a little too agressive for no good reason. The melodic elements found in some older tracks don't exist anymore and your voice, although closer to what you want probably, sound worst.

In general the tracks seem to be a little 'flat', not that you don't have contrasts or dynamic levels, you do. But somehow the interest is always the same and the sound manipulation remains the same in all the tracks, which in the end makes them boring.

Sorry for the NIN comparison, but it's bound to happen and I'm doing it only to point something. And sorry for being harsh also.

You need to find ways to make your tracks a little more interesting, and if you notice underneath the sounds and yelling, Trevor has a strong bass line (with many layers but never the less a line), and some kind of harmony somewhere in the middle.

Now I don't know if these tracks represent all the album. If you have some other tracks that might contradict my (and helms) points you may very well better post those, as these 4 sound a little the same to me.

EDIT: Warmth:

Never mind my last proposal about other tracks. I skiped warmth before...

No, I like it, I like it a lot... I like the detuned melody, I like the pads (although I usually hate them) and I like the kick. This is a decent aesthetics and I personally enjoyed that. The only comment I would have is that this track gave me hope and in the end I may buy your album.

[ManicMatt]

Helm:

Thanks for taking the time to listen.

"It's not my type of thing so maybe my point of view isn't very useful to you."

Yes, I'll try to keep in mind you don't really like most of the stuff I listen to either! Still, you usually can tell the difference between talent and pop idol contestant.

"This reminds me of NIN, only more amateurly done, and I don't really like NIN to begin with so again, maybe my opinion on this one is worthless."

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ETC Oh man I was so hoping for no NIN comparisons with this album! Guess I can't avoid it.

"makes me think of a less ear-shattering Whitehouse without any of the class, and Whitehouse aren't all about class, so you know..."

Uh.. who?

"There is always Hope, well I guess you really really like NIN, don't you?"

Uh again. Why does that sound like NIN? For years people told me I sound like NIN. So I bought a couple of albums a while back. "Downward spiral" sounded alright but I only liked bits of it. The new one is better to me but a couple of tracks are dull! So that's why I'm so freaking weirded out by people saying I've ripped him off when I'd only heard a few tracks off the radio in the past and never got into him. My brother in Coventry though, he likes NIN and also says I sound like him musically.

'these vocals are overmixed and out of tune'

Really? They are? I couldn't tell. But then Trent Reznor has a thing called a producer who tells him this stuff.

"Extremely out of tune singing"

Whaaat?? On that one? I like them! I must be tonedeaf.

"I personally find their lyrics unconvincing on all levels too."

Well then you'd find ME unconvincing!

"You've mimicked the stylistics of other more successful arists here"

Who? Oh I don't want to know. Don't tell me. I've probably never heard them anyway.

"Sorry if this is harsh."

yes it is. And has spoiled what was a good day. But I wouldn't want you bullshitting me anyway.

"before you so happily call what you've made any sort of 'industrial' music."

Hmm? Oh shit I left that on from the last album! Yeah I'll change that. Nah I own Pitchshifter's "infotainment?" album, I know what industrial is.

You know, I can't help but feel that perhaps you've only heard NIN's in that genre, so you can only compare to him. Just like if I heard only one punk band for years, and then heard another, comparisons would be enevitable. (sp?)

Nikolas:

"7th album?Huh That's a lot of music and a lot of time.... WOW Well done for that..."

Are you being sincere? You sound like what helm just said.

"There was bound to be a huge difference between NIN and Matts music."

I'm chucking NIN's albums out of the window!

"Matts music (unless he spends another 50,000 GBP.."
Yes, that is out of my budget.

"The melodic elements found in some older tracks don't exist anymore"

Ouch.

"But somehow the interest is always the same and the sound manipulation remains the same in all the tracks, which in the end makes them boring."

Ah, would that be a lack of a mixing engineer/knowledge?

"Sorry for the NIN comparison, but it's bound to happen and I'm doing it only to point something."

It's not the first, it won't be the last!

"Now I don't know if these tracks represent all the album. "

A few will then sound the same to you, except "History" which is a sort of well. erm, indie non-acoustic but fake guitar thingy; and "unhealthy" which is a weird basic fun song with a catchy chorus. (Then again, I thought Manipulator was catchy..) and "work for life" is a almost pop like song with synths and cool guitars.

The only reason i didn't include those tracks was because it would give the worng impression OVERALL of the album. People would expect more but find the dark electronic stuff instead.

"No, I like it, I like it a lot... "

Phew!

Well Nikolas, if you were to send me a disc full of your compositions, I'll give you this album and stick the last album on the disc too, okay?

[Helm]

Thanks for taking the time to listen.

no prob, I'm sure you'd listen to my stuff too if I posted them.

Uh.. who?

Forget it, you don't want to listen to Whitehouse, seriously. It was just in the way of saying there's a lot of treble and not much else in your mix, and distorted vocals.

About NIN: I've listened to a lot of music in many genres, and yes, I think your music sounds remarkably like an immitation of them. I can't even believe that you haven't listened to NIN religiously. But I mean like, having a copy of Fragile over your bed and stuff. It's just a very recognisable way of playing this pop electronic music and it sounds very similar, just amateur.

Really? They are? I couldn't tell. But then Trent Reznor has a thing called a producer who tells him this stuff.

As you say below, no. If you can't tell your vocals are out of tune, do ear training. A lot of it. They are. If you can't tell yourself, you cannot trust yourself to tell if two intervals at the same time sound like a major or a minor coupling, and this is BAD. You will no be able to write anything but single-part melodies unless your ears can tell what intervals are playing together at one time. I'm not saying perfect pitch, just being able to spot if they're at least on the tempered scale (ON the piano keys, not BETWEEN them)

Well then you'd find ME unconvincing!

I'm sorry to say, but if the lyrics express your sentiments, I'd probably do. THIS DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE A FAKE. It just means you haven't yet achieved the ability to convey what you feel emotionally to ME and only ME. Other people might find it wonderful.

yes it is. And has spoiled what was a good day. But I wouldn't want you bullshitting me anyway.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. I think you'd benefit from what I really think rather than my silence, or lies. I agree hearing harsh critique about stuff you love doing is really a blow. But what can I do?

Nah I own Pitchshifter's "infotainment?" album, I know what industrial is.

well.. pitchshifter are not industrial.

[Adamski]

It's not pleasent taking criticism over your own music, especially if you have complete conviction that the last batch of tunes you have just written are the greatest thing ever (something every musician feels), but all composers will take a lot of criticism in their lives - a lot of it can be completely shattering too - but the truly great and sucessful ones are those that have soaked up everything negative that has come their way and channeled it into improving their work. The comments you have recieved so far may seem terrible now, but it is mostly accurate  - I will pose a question for you now however and base any followup on the answer:

Are you completely serious about writing music, is it your life's passion and the only thing you want to do with your life, or is it just a hobby for a bit of fun?

Helm (and everybody else, not pointing at helm in particular, cause actually I'm really sure that helm knows): There was bound to be a huge difference between NIN and Matts music. Matts music (unless he spends another 50,000 GBP (just a number at almost random)), will always sound amateur. Home studios, the cheap ones, only take you this far... I mean no matter how you or companies try a software guitar amp emulator (NI, Waves etc...) won't sound the same as having 10 amps in the room and playing with the mics and everything else. The same goes with drums, no matter how cool or good is drums from Hell, having a good drum booth with a good enginer will sound better in the end (and at least 8 mics...)

You can produce professional sounding music in your bedroom, it's been going on for almost two decades now so this is really not an excuse

[Squinky]

I listened for a bit, and it reminded me of my days playing clubs. Seemed like every band sounded like this for awhile, my bro even had one. It is very NIN like in my "average guy" understanding of this type of music.

Biggest things I felt, was that the songs didn't convey what they were intended to convey. Had they been just mindless dance music, that would have been fine. But I don't think thats what you intended.

The other thing would be that it seemed very unrefined. I'm not sure what equipment you are working with, but maybe hiring some help or making a deal with some folks with better equipment would do you some good. I managed to get my "Album" digitaly recorded and mixed by a local sound studio, because I gigged with them a bit. I'm not sure if that is an option for you, but it's one you should think about if you are at least moderately serious about this.

Keep making music though man, there is talent here.

[modgeulator]

I'll throw in my own opinion if no one minds. Considering I hardly ever write much music myself, and what I do write is admittedly pretty bad you can take it for what it's worth...Ã, 

OK, I don't think this is completely terrible and without any redeeming qualities as some have said. But I don't really like it much either.

I think the whole angst thing, of trying to dress up your personal neuroses like they're interesting, was done to death throughout the nineties. And it was a pretty dodgy idea to begin with that rarely sounds convincing. I think Trent Reznor could make it sound good, though just as often it fell flat and some of his lyrics just sound silly to me. You say you don't listen to Nine Inch Nails but I think you've mentioned Cex once or twice. He made a record a couple years ago in this sort of mould so maybe that's where the influence is from? "Maryland Mansions."

It sounds likes this music may have been cathartic to make but where does it leave the listener? I don't find anything here I can really connect with and it isn't extreme or original enough to stand as a unique work of art. NIN and Cex manage to draw us in and entertain us. After listening to this I only feel like I've sat through someone else's therapy session.

I'd really like to hear you try something similar to what you've got here, but starting over with some new themes and reconsidering your intentions artistically. It could still be "dark," I'm just saying try moving beyond this personal angst stuff. I really feel it's a bad idea and it's very hard to get it right.


I hope you take this post in the spirit of constructive criticism in which it was intended.

[Nikolas]

You can produce professional sounding music in your bedroom, it's been going on for almost two decades now so this is really not an excuse

Depeneds really on the style of music we're talking about.

A simple example, is that when you're talking about orchestral music well, in the end I consider professional tracks the ones produced with an orchestra and not the ones produced with a sampler and 2-3 computers. Not that there can't be exceptions but the rule of thumb is that a sampler can't sound as good as a live orchestra. Same goes with rock-probably pop style. Especially when software has taken over where hardware was used (drums, amps, mics, comrpessions etc...). Dance music  is a different thing which can probably be produced in a bedroom, or some exceptional lounge tracks but still I stand to what  I said.

And anyway what are the odds of a 24 year old guy (or 28, me) with just a computer and Fuit loops, or Sonar, or Cubase on, to do something that someone else (Trent) does in a millions studio?

Matt, I was being sincere, 7 albums is a lot of music and it goes to show that you love what you do, plus your talent for coming up with new tracks and your dedication to finding time to produce them.

[Squinky]

Nik, this sort of music can be made pretty high quality from home, been done (to death) a thousand times. Equipment is spendy, but so are guitars, amps and cabinets and PA systems and drums etc.

[ManicMatt]

"it's been going on for almost two decades now so this is really not an excuse"

Well I suppose so.. however it's the first time I'd used a PC to make the music, so it was a whole new ball game for me in how to program and compose the music.

Hmmm when I'd made the music it was so bass heavy it was shaking the draws in my room. when I took it off my PC to some decent speakers and so I went into Goldwave and turned down the bass on it all. Would that have spoiled the music at all? Even just a little?

Yes it was what I wanted to do in life. To be recognised as a musician before I die. Maybe I should go back to cartoons.. sigh.

"The other thing would be that it seemed very unrefined."

What do you mean by that? I was struggling to get the sound levels right.

"I'm not sure what equipment you are working with"

Fruity loops and it's plug ins. PC. Decent microphone. That's it.

"trying to dress up your personal neuroses like they're interesting, was done to death throughout the nineties"

Guess I'm a bit behind then. In the nineties I was listening to Jesus Jones, inspiral carpets, PWEI, Wonder Stuff, all those grebo bands.

"Maryland Mansions."

Yeah, I've got that album. But again, I was making this sort of music years before I heard that.

You seem insistent on finding an artist that MUST be where I got my sound from. Well I honestly don't know. I listen to hundreds od artists. Maybe they all inspire me.

[modgeulator]

If it's the first thing you've done on PC I'd say that's pretty impressive, I honestly thought you had done music that way before and had some amount of past experience. Would you really expect someone to write a great song the first time they pick up a guitar? Of course not. I think there's heaps of potential here it's just that you've tried to do something ridiculously ambitious and it doesn't quite come together.

I seriously am stunned if this is your first work you've created with a sequencer like Fruity Loops and I'm not just trying to be polite or anything when I say that.

[radiowaves]

First of all, before I say anything, you got some musical talent, but right now, you may lack some skills.
Your music is somewhat dry, as Helm said, you need to add a little reverb touch to it and master the song correctly. Synths are too monotonous, you may also try using chords, those things make the song more interesting. And the thing thats most bothering to me, is that itchyness of the sound, I don't know wether it is the crappy player (I doubt) or your actuall song, but the sound is full of dusty scratches and eeks.

[Adamski]

A simple example, is that when you're talking about orchestral music well, in the end I consider professional tracks the ones produced with an orchestra and not the ones produced with a sampler and 2-3 computers. Not that there can't be exceptions but the rule of thumb is that a sampler can't sound as good as a live orchestra. Same goes with rock-probably pop style. Especially when software has taken over where hardware was used (drums, amps, mics, comrpessions etc...). Dance music  is a different thing which can probably be produced in a bedroom, or some exceptional lounge tracks but still I stand to what  I said.

Just want to address this quickly. A sampler not sounding as good as a real orchestra is an entire other WORLD away from whether or not you can produce amazing sounding music in a non-studio environment (terrible example anyway as you don't record an orchestra in a studio, you do it in the correct acoustic space). Hardware processing does not = professional sound! It's how you USE the equipment you have, not WHAT you have.  The Futurehead's latest album was recorded in a Cowshed, Tom Waits' last album was recorded in an abandoned school house, OK Computer was recorded in a mansion - all completely far and away from the conventional studio space (there are a million other examples I could give but you're likely to have heard of these folks). There are no excuses anymore because even on a low budget you can record great sounding music anywhere.

Yes it was what I wanted to do in life. To be recognised as a musician before I die.

No worries, there's still lots of time left. The potential is there, but if you really really want to do this then you're going to find it's a lot of hard work full of disappointment and fustration. You can't have any false illusions that you are fantastic and everyone will want to buy your music, and you must also take honest criticism and say "so how do I improve?" instead of feeling glum about it.

Ah, would that be a lack of a mixing engineer/knowledge?

No excuses here, you want to sell albums you have to learn engineering skills. Start reading Sound on Sound's back catalogue (all online free) and learn how to use a compressor, how to equalise, how to record vocals, the correct use of reverb, pick up as much mixing, mastering and production theory as you can. Ditch Fruity Loops or Magix Music Maker or any Playstation mentality you have, save up pennies and buy yourself a Digital Audio Workstation (this can be any computer with a fast processor and plenty of ram and hard drive space) and load it up with Voxengo and Kjaerhus plugins. Get Sonar or Cubase and learn how to use them inside out. Get a nice firewire audio interface with balanced inputs you can plug your guitar and microphone in to, and if you haven't already got a nice condersor mic to record with then get one. Lots of great budget stuff out there, don't listen to Nikolas - you don't need £50,000 worth of gear to make great music. Pick up some better soft synths too, lots of free stuff out there  (start at kvraudio.com and work your way onwards).

The most important thing is to know that nothing will get handed to you on a silver plate, and at every moment you have to push the boundaries of your skills beyond what you think you're capable of. Instead of making excuses, knuckle down and work at things you know you are not good at. Just having raw talent means nothing these days because *everyone* has raw talent and a myspace account - if you want to get to the top of the pile you have to work at it.

[Nikolas]

Adamaski, I think there is a misunderstanding here.

I was reffering to the comparison made to Matt that his music sounds like amateur NIN. And I said, 'what did you expect? NIN have a huge amount of money and a good studio at their hands, Matt only has fruity loops' (sort of). Doesn't this make any sense? I didn't say that you need 50,000$ to make good music! and the ammount was an example. Honestly the Mansion where Radiohead recorded ok computer, was filled with what? A single PC? Maybe something more than that? Do you honestly think that Ok computer was made with a single PC and frutiy loops on top of that? I seriously doubt that! Moreover do you think that someone with only 1 PC and frutiy loops (or cubase or whatever), can reproduce a song from Ok computer (so it is just a cover and not a new creative song)? I don't think so!

But anyway that is my personal opinion, as that is yours.

And anyway do you have a disagrement that a live recorded drum (in a decent booth with decent drums etc....) has more chances sounding more profesional than a programed sampled drum? If so, I don't know what else to say.

Basically I'm not saying that it is impossible to create fantastic sounding music with just a PC (or Mac or whatever), and a low budget bellow 1000 $, but still I do find it kinda difficult, to compare this music with a music prodcues in a high end studio.

I'm not offering excuse to Matt, but comparing his music to NIN music seems a little unfair.

Of course if he's out there selling his music, then he deserves to be treated this way and to be compared with anybody anytime, by anyone. That's true indeed...

[Adamski]

Okay, I guess I was mis-reading your points and making unnecessary rebuttals. Unfortunatly the fact remains that you can't hide behind "I only have the most mimimal setup in the world" if you are deadly serious about what you're doing, because it doesn't take a lot these days to have a semi-professional setup. I think the NIN comparisons are not based on technical finesse either, more on the overall aesthetic of the music.

[Nikolas]

true...

While writting the above post I thought of that and wrote the last sentece.

True

[ManicMatt]

If you note all the songs on my page are downloadable. I'm STILL going to hand out shedloads of FREE promos with half of the album on them.

In terms of the album, I'm not keen on just handing it out free, a lot of sweat and tears went into making it, over half a year or so. (Yes, assuming someone would want it in the first place..) But I'd rather I did a swap with them, music for music, a drawing of theirs, something
for something.

I'm tempted to replace "there is always hope" on my page for this other song that had Nikolas' son dancing.

[Exorph]

So I gave it a listen, and it wasn't really my cup of tea, but whatever. I still don't find it to be as bad as everyone here says.

I thought maybe I should give you a few pointers that doesn't include "spend money on a good setup", because you haven't gotten enough of those yet and because all you really NEED is a nice amount of RAM, and if you want your music to sound really professional, a good soundcard and some nice speakers.

First of all, your singing might be out of tune, but that never bothered me. What did bother me was that it wasn't mixed well enough in most cases. It did sound nice in Warmth, but otherwise it didn't sound like a part of the music but rather like someone singing kareoke over a pre-recorded track.

Next, there weren't enough layers as some people have already pointed out. You should try to use one bass line, one lead line and something in between them all at the same time. Of course when the song calls for it you can strip it off everything but the bass or something, but if there's one thing that can make music sound awesome it's when several layers of different melodies all play at once.
Some music you could listen to for inspiration could include Marilyn Manson and The Shape of Punk to Come by Refused (those are the bands I can think of from the top of my head that use a lot of layers. I realize there's a lot of hate for MM, but on the technical side of it all, it's really good music.. and Refused should be listened to by everyone).

And finally, you should either make your tracks shorter or more varied. I actually enjoyed some of your songs' basic melodies and stuff, until I had heard the same thing looping over and over for way too long.
To fix this, I'd recommend you apply more layers as I said above. Maybe put in a completely new melody layer over the old one the third time you loop the same thing. You could also simply change the settings for some of your instruments and effects over the time of the song. It can make a huge difference.
Unless you're aiming for repetive songs, you should maybe consider never using the exact same loop more than twice.

I hate telling people how to create their art though, so keep in mind that these are just pointers. In the end it's your music, and it should be created out of your own creativity.

[Nine Toes]

I would say he has a thing for Static-X as well.



Or am I the only one who sees a similarity there?

(ha ha... Sorry, Matt.  I'm just giving you a hard time.)