Adventure Game Studio

Given certain recent events (I'll be polite and not point fingers) I felt the need to post my feelings on the feeding of trolls.  These aren't new feelings.  Just feelings that the [previously mentioned] recent events have sparked my desire to post about it.

It goes something like this;

A troll is a troll is a troll is a troll.  A troll craves only one thing; continued attention no matter the cost. Trolls, in my opinion, add nothing useful to a web-community.  They aren't entertaining, they aren't 'occasional fun', they are nothing but useless and only take away from the communities over-all 'vibe'.

YOU CANNOT HEAL A TROLL.

YOU CANNOT CURE A TROLL.

YOU CANNOT HELP A TROLL.

YOU.CAN.NOT.

If you try to help, criticize, insult, enlighten, etc (anything) you only accomplish feeding the troll.

The methods people seem to need to try:

Helpful Advice:
No matter how logical and/or helpful your advice might be (attitude adjustments, spell-checking, etc) you aren't going to enlighten or change them, you only feed the troll.  It doesn't matter how politely you phrase it, you're feeding the troll.

Insults:
No matter how witty, rude, clever and/or warranted your insults might be you only accomplish feeding the troll.  A troll craves attention and this is the worst kind of troll food.  It's the candy/junk food of troll food.

Noble Defender:
No matter how much you 'defend' them to the others coming down on them, you are not going to make them feel 'accepted' and change their behavior you are only fueling the fire and thus, feeding the troll.

The Informer:
When you try to inform everybody else in the thread that they are only feeding the troll... you feed the troll (thus why I posted this as a separate topic in a vain (IE useless) attempt to stem the tide of trolldom).

There is only one way to make a troll go away;
DON'T FEED THE TROLL (don't reply to the thread)

It is the only way to make the troll go away. 

I will never understand why worthy topics/threads get only 1 page of replies before dying yet people perpetuate a troll thread with page after page of troll-food.  My current theory is that some [maybe most?] people just don't think of something as "trolling" and just take the bait unwittingly.

Now ... I didn't post this just to be a holier than though prick (surprise!). 

I'm actually curious what others' opinions were on the feeding of trolls and why, despite most peoples' hatred of trolls, they continue to take the bait and the cycle repeats itself over and over and over and over...

I don't believe in the existence of trolls. In reality they are all beautiful golden-haired faeries waiting to be rescued through the endless elongation of their threads.

Maybe...

A) They or we or whoever don't think the person in question is a troll as you define it.
B) They/We disagree that posters acting in this way are not entertaining.
C) How many trolls have actually gone to the effort of making several (crappy) AGS games, and inspired a series of OK-to-hilarious games? That should earn our anonymous maybe-troll some slack, surely?
D) Sometimes people who start out writing barely-legible nonsense are cured, and turn into relatively reasonable posters.

Well I know that trolls are supposed to be a threat for the community and all.
But lets consider two things:
Theres just one guy here who is said to be a troll, an opinion that I don't share and that I think is really insulting and unfair towards someone whos just a little different. Especially if its someone whos obviously trying really hard and has made some good progress.
Seeking attention does not automatically make you a troll. Its probably just a typical behaviour of a 14-16 years old.

Secondly. Damn, these threads are entertaining. I really enjoy reading them and the absurdly hilarious situations. Its not like the whole board's been flooded. Is just a few threads.

So my opinion here is: Let's not make this a which hunt. Just relax and dont take everything so seriously.

I agree with the other responses. This ol' internet is home to many people who want to start fights, insult people or force their views on others.

There's not a lot of that around here, so I think the community vibe is pretty good.

Quote from: Snarky on Tue 19/04/2011 23:23:07
A) They or we or whoever don't think the person in question is a troll as you define it.
B) They/We disagree that posters acting in this way are not entertaining.
C) How many trolls have actually gone to the effort of making several (crappy) AGS games, and inspired a series of OK-to-hilarious games? That should earn our anonymous maybe-troll some slack, surely?
D) Sometimes people who start out writing barely-legible nonsense are cured, and turn into relatively reasonable posters.

A) Obviously! This is why I was expressing my opinion on the matter (never claimed to determine others' opinions, that's why I asked for them) :)
B) see answer A
C) If a troll invented the cure for cancer, but still acts the troll, I wouldn't ignore the trollish behavior just because of a great deed.
D) Opinion v Opinion on this matter, one isn't better (or more right) than the other

Quote from: mode7 on Tue 19/04/2011 23:47:21Theres just one guy here who is said to be a troll, an opinion that I don't share and that I think is really insulting and unfair towards someone whos just a little different. Especially if its someone whos obviously trying really hard and has made some good progress.
Seeking attention does not automatically make you a troll. Its probably just a typical behaviour of a 14-16 years old.

Secondly. Damn, these threads are entertaining. I really enjoy reading them and the absurdly hilarious situations. Its not like the whole board's been flooded. Is just a few threads.

So my opinion here is: Let's not make this a which hunt. Just relax and dont take everything so seriously.

Again though it's "opinion v opinion" ... I mean if a person has [several] threads where multiple posts straight-up call them a troll, or exhibit the anti-troll behavior(s) I mentioned in my first post, doesn't that mean that there is at least some who feel a troll is amongst us?

I wasn't starting a witch hunt and am not taking anything "so seriously" here ... recent events, which I consider trolling (as do many others), caused me to put to words some questions I've had for quite some time.

Quote from: Ali on Wed 20/04/2011 00:10:45
I agree with the other responses. This ol' internet is home to many people who want to start fights, insult people or force their views on others.

There's not a lot of that around here, so I think the community vibe is pretty good.

I do hope that wasn't directed at me?  I wasn't starting a fight or insulting anybody and certainly wasn't forcing my opinion on others ... I was just expressing my opinions which is, I think, the point of a discussion in the gen-gen :(

I wasn't specifically meaning the AGS boards either (this isn't the only place I have an account on a forums).  There is actually a surprising lack of trolls around these parts (and I agree with Ali the over-all vibe is pretty decent or I'd not be here after nearly 8 years) which is probably why the occasional troll stands out more (to me).

I would kindly and humbly ask that this thread not be turned into another crusade for the righteous in defense of a perceived slight and instead focus on the original intent of expressing opinions on trolling in general.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Wed 20/04/2011 00:26:55

Quote from: Ali on Wed 20/04/2011 00:10:45
I agree with the other responses. This ol' internet is home to many people who want to start fights, insult people or force their views on others.

There's not a lot of that around here, so I think the community vibe is pretty good.

I do hope that wasn't directed at me?

No, no not at all!

I just meant that the 'trolling' in question is pretty civilised by contrast with other examples.

I think the case for trollish behaviour is strong, yet the case for motivated and developing member is probably stronger.  I agree with Mode7 that progress is being made -if slowly.  So live and let live.

If you find the Troll or the Feeders annoying, then don't read the threads (I mostly don't).

I think what makes a troll a troll is malice. Being too immature to realize one's own immaturity isn't malice in my book.

Quote from: Ali on Wed 20/04/2011 00:31:12No, no not at all!
I just meant that the 'trolling' in question is pretty civilised by contrast with other examples.

Cheers, and I agree.  I'm a member at other places where troll-threads will go on for 50+ pages and I'm also at other places where it won't make it past 5 posts before moderators lock it (this is, obviously, my preference ;))

Quote from: Baron on Wed 20/04/2011 02:08:17...yet the case for motivated and developing member is probably stronger.  I agree with Mode7 that progress is being made -if slowly...

I would quote myself again here "opinion v opinion" but I do see your point!

Quote from: Baron on Wed 20/04/2011 02:08:17If you find the Troll or the Feeders annoying, then don't read the threads (I mostly don't).

I usually don't, but sometimes you inadvertently stumble into one and find yourself mired in the bog...

Quote from: Khris on Wed 20/04/2011 02:26:30I think what makes a troll a troll is malice. Being too immature to realize one's own immaturity isn't malice in my book.

Interesting point ... so if you can tell the poster is only posting as they are because they are immature it becomes non-trolling to you?  I'm not being confrontational, just genuinely curious because to my mind troll-posting is troll-posting regardless of intent/cause.  I might extend a little lee-way in the case of immaturity but if the behavior continued endlessly at some point isn't enough enough?

Thanks for the opinions!  I like seeing this from other POVs!

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Wed 20/04/2011 02:40:25
Cheers, and I agree.  I'm a member at other places where troll-threads will go on for 50+ pages and I'm also at other places where it won't make it past 5 posts before moderators lock it (this is, obviously, my preference ;))

The only problem I have with locking trolled threads is that the genuine contributors are then punished. However troll created threads should be locked asap. Why let others feed the troll when you want to starve it. I see trolls as mice looking for food, the acknowledgement of there existence (replying to their threads) is like leaving crumbs behind. You can either clean up the crumbs (lock the thread) or not leave any crumbs in the first place (dont acknowledge them).

I am concerned however that this may end up as tasty troll bait. It would be nice if we had an ignore list, that way troll posts are optionally blocked.

I don't think we have any real trolls here though. Just the occasional self centred kid that is convinced his awful ags creation is the next big thing. Immaturity or retardation? Who knows? I think we were all guilty of this when we where younger.

The biggest reason I personally dislike this potential Troll we are discussing, and in my opinion the strongest proof of his/her trolldom is this:

To join the AGS forums you have to answer a few simple questions. To me it seems that if you are considered a troll or even a potential troll, you have acted poorly, and thus have broken the rules you agreed to abide to when joining the forums. Being unable to understand these questions due to language barrier / young age / impatience is no defense! If you were able to correctly answer, then you MUST have understood the questions. Thus there should be some type of punishment / reprimand to bring such a person "back into line" with the forum rules.

I still remember the day I clicked the "Register" button and saw the questionnaire. I was so happy to see that a forum existed where the mere act of joining required you to acknowledge certain basic rules, and saw this as a level of guarantee that this was, as it has been to me, a clean and friendly place.

This is actually..well..this entire thing is funny to me. This time. It gets old after a while, and not every troll thread is lulzworthy, but there have been some very decent trolls around these parts that have settled down and become decent members of the AGSociety (which I now propose as the formal name of the "AGS community").

The name of Flukeblake comes to mind, and, to a much lesser extent, TerribleVenerealDisease (whose real screenname I can't remember at the moment!).

Trollz is trollz, but some of them are funny enough to be redeemable when the jokes get old. It can happen. 8)

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Wed 20/04/2011 06:45:32
AGSociety (which I now propose as the formal name of the "AGS community").

Off Topic: The trouble with that name is it makes me think of David Cameron's 'Big Society'.

'Big AGSociety' would mean Chris Jones suddenly relinquishing centralised control of AGS development and allowing individual developers to contribute...

Wait a minute... open source? ... this is the first time a coalition policy has seemed worthwhile to me!

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Wed 20/04/2011 06:45:32
The name of Flukeblake comes to mind, and, to a much lesser extent, TerribleVenerealDisease (whose real screenname I can't remember at the moment!).

Was just about to point that out. Trolls sometimes can be reformed - I mean hell, I was 13 when I joined these forums and I remember the first year or so of my posts being extremely trollworthy haha. I just cringe when I think of it  :-X
I think Flukeblake was also pretty young when he was a 'troll', so in order for a troll to be reformed they probably just have to grow up a little.

Haha who remembers that guy who made that game about the sword who walked around? I remember him posting this car he drew in CL with square wheels :o A few others spring to mind as well, like LJUBI - The schizophrenic troll :D

Haha!!

http://agsociety.org/

I don't think anybody's mentioned that usage of the AGS acronym yet (here, among the discussions we've had about it).

"AGSociety" apparently also could be used to mean "AGricultural Society" (as in agsociety.com).

AGSociety.co.uk is available though! :=

Anyway, you're right there Phemar, to an extent. The problem is that not every troll can be reformed simply by growing up. Some trolls just won't quit. And I miss LJUBI. Both of them.

Anyone remember rolf?

http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=33696.msg437505#msg437505 <- Aaah, nostalgia trip.

I didn't really want to post here, However I am going to any ways. It's hard to see see people calling me a troll all the time. But like it was said before I have a lot of stamina so that's why I put up with it. Your opinion is that I am a troll. My opinion is that I am not a troll. You said it your self that you have been here 8 years & you are 35 years old. Keep in mind that I am 16 & I only been here 3 years. The only type of coding I knew was a little basic html. But I forgot it all after I came to AGS. With that said, If I am having trouble understanding Khris or monkey with AGS code it doesn't mean I am trolling or acting retarded, I just need a little bit more time to understand what they mean.

Also you make it seem like I don't listen to anyones advice. I only get up set when I am being picked on by adults who acted like kids(At times!)
If this was school some might call this bullying however I am not scared of a bully. Meaning that if your gonna toy with me and attack me by calling me a troll or keep blabbering about me building a portfolio to show SE then thats when I make a counter.

And on a side note, maybe it's just me, But I don't think trolls start out as a troll. It takes only 1 person to turn someone into a troll. But that's my opinion.

If we are talking about who I think we are talking about, there have been plenty of guidance, instructions and feedback to direct the person in the right direction. If things do not start to change, I think there should be some kind of punishment or something. Temporary ban?

If we are to wait for every troll to just grow up, I think it would be too lenient. The issue of Trolls on the internet as a whole has grown to critical proportions in the last few years, we simply cannot expect things to work out like they have in the past.

Perhaps I am too strict when it comes to this, but personally I believe that strictness and punishment are the only ways to truly discourage this behavior in the long run. The basic forum rules on grammar, behavior and such should be followed, or at least a true and proper effort made, instead of making infinite excuses.

I don't know Studio3, all a troll has to do in order to not be a troll is just follow the advice people give him. All everyone's trying to do is just help you, and I mean so far all I've seen is people giving you pretty good advice.

Quote from: Studio3 on Wed 20/04/2011 10:46:59I only been here 3 years.

Not really "only 3 years", 3 years is quite a long time to be here. It takes less than 3 years to learn the how a community interacts with itself (in this case, AGS) and how to fit in.

I take peoples advice. To me 3 years is short compared to most here, The only way at times it seems for me to "fit in" is by not saying anything. But whats the point of trying to make a game if I don't talk. :-\

I can't ask for help, and I cant announce it.

Well Darth you see now YOU fed teh troll by giving it more to talk about ::)  :P

I agree with Wham - you've got to draw the line on leniency towards these type of people sometime. And if they're not going to take friendly advice after so long, they should be kicked from the forums for a while. Good people leave early because dicks arrive here, and some of TPTB just shrug it off, "Oh, he'll change I'm sure."

They may not be around today, but there's no denying our abuse, advice and mild tolerance of former trolls DID improve in most cases who they were and the way they interacted with the community.

Troll threads let those of us who never normally let off steam here....let off some steam. There is no rant forum. And I'm sure behind all the mild mannered posts round here there are times people just want to rant. I know I do ;) And any "trolls" can sometimes be interesting psychological cases - like this current one - pity and curiosity overshadow the fact advice/insult might be troll food. People CAN change their approach to internet forums, and if they can't, in our case - we've been able to wipe the slate clean of them. But rest assured until something a little more drastic is done then yes this one will probably be about for tooooo long  :=

That rolf guy sounds pretty awesome. It's like Yoda has got involved in the drug scene and become addicted. A few years later he is homeless and spends his time between begging, getting his fix, and posting his drug induced wisdom on the forums.

Unfortunately it's very rare someone understands him and so he finds it rare that he has the loose change to spend in the internet cafe. Hence his unfortunate absence from the community.

Either that or he works in a call centre for a large multinational company and they train him to speak that way.


^^ See any troll can be made interesting when you give them a good back story.

Quote from: Mods on Wed 20/04/2011 12:58:31Well Darth you see now YOU fed teh troll by giving it more to talk about ::)  :P

Believe me my friend ... I am well aware :)  It's why I debated the post in the first place!

Quote from: Mods on Wed 20/04/2011 12:58:31They may not be around today, but there's no denying our abuse, advice and mild tolerance of former trolls DID improve in most cases who they were and the way they interacted with the community.

I think those that improve aren't really trolls though ... just nuisances (at first).  With a little cajoling they 'see the light' and come 'round to a semblance of proper behavior (as defined by the community).  I mean I certainly bumped heads with a lot of people when I first started posting here ... then I got a 'feel' for the place and learned how to coexist.

A perfect example of trolling behavior (to my mind) would be for a person to post in this thread making a statement about me calling them a troll when I, in fact, never called any specific person a troll.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Wed 20/04/2011 02:40:25Interesting point ... so if you can tell the poster is only posting as they are because they are immature it becomes non-trolling to you?  I'm not being confrontational, just genuinely curious because to my mind troll-posting is troll-posting regardless of intent/cause.  I might extend a little lee-way in the case of immaturity but if the behavior continued endlessly at some point isn't enough enough?

I'd say regardless whether it constitutes trolling or not, the important thing is the proper reaction towards the exhibited behavior. You're basically saying: leave the retard in a ditch if they didn't learn table manners after trying for months.
I wish I had an answer; I'm torn between agreeing and pointing out that he's still too retarded to understand why he's annoying or why he can't empty the barbecue sauce all over the table.
I'll take solace in the fact that one day, "unaware trolls", if you will, will look back and cringe when remembering what they used to do. At least in our special case here, the belated embarrassment is amplified by the number of people involved.

And then there was Ashen, ah, the glorious days, when people were more awesome and brave and friendly and thinking less of themselves, ecc ecc.

Then again, I never made any sense, so feel free to tear my post apart if it makes your day.

Serious bit

I used to spell and format a sentence, in a far more peculiar way than icey is, my first posts are widely considered masterpieces. And yeah, I was "attacked", and at times being joked at, made fun of, ignored ecc. But this happens, AGS forums was one, if not, the first forum I signed up for.

And perhaps my initial goal is quite abandoned(making a MI game (a good one)) but there are things I learned in the process, and mostly the company was good.

And yeah, some people really hated the stickam topic, but stickamites just used that topic for links.

When I first joined the IRC channel was quite in the mortuary, now it's alive and full of people (the level of discussion is still low though).

And yeah, some of you were harsh to me, for the right and the wrong reasons, with the right and the wrong way, but meeting some of you was worth it in the long run.

And yeah, I'm usually just posting worthless stuff, but this forum used to be worthless stuff. And shit, who am I to speak, but seriously just let it be.

To trolls, keep trolling as much as possible!!
To normal people, be goddamn normal, different isn't for you!!
To people acting high and mighty, stop it, start being friendly!!
To weird people, stop wanting to be normal, you're so damn freaky!!
To lurkers, stop posting your first post, it's annoying and nobody cares!!
To all my AGS friends, I salute you!

DUALNAMES SALUTES

I think you should just follow your inner moderator sense of trollish behaviour and if it says the person in question is a troll, you should stomp his ass out of existence. If someone disagrees with your judgement, just pounce on him too. I mean, who cares about fairness when oranges taste so good? =)

Quote from: Jim Reed on Wed 20/04/2011 15:19:38
I think you should just follow your inner moderator sense of trollish behaviour and if it says the person in question is a troll, you should stomp his ass out of existence. If someone disagrees with your judgement, just pounce on him too. I mean, who cares about fairness when oranges taste so good? =)

What kind of advice is hat? If every new person that comes to the forum and is seen as a troll in darth's eyes, you wan't him to just attack them? That's not friendly. The forum would stop get new knew members who could have been the ones to make really good games.

@Dualnames:I agree with what you said.


@darth: I can see that you wasn't saying icey or studio3. But when I read through the post I things that are similar to me. I am not stupid, I can read.

People keep calling me a troll, people keep saying stuff like feeding the troll. All I am doing is defending my self.
And if defending my self is being a troll, if you respond to this or any other "trolls" post in defense then I wounder if that makes you a troll?

 

Please, man, just roll up in a ball and die.

Quote from: Studio3 on Wed 20/04/2011 17:28:37
What kind of advice is hat?

Facetious advice, I would imagine.

Quote@darth: I can see that you wasn't saying icey or studio3. But when I read through the post I things that are similar to me. I am not stupid, I can read.

I'm with icey on this one. You didn't mention any names explicitly, but we all knew who you meant.

I haven't given the question deep study or anything, but I get the impression that he's basically a well-meaning kid, and I sort of admire his persistence and gradual progress. As for the general nonsense, twaddle and mangled English, it's more amusing than frustrating to me. So icey, you're welcome here as far as I'm concerned!

Besides, every community needs one member who's at the bottom of the pecking order, that others can make fun of. At least while icey's around, I can be fairly confident that it isn't me.

Arsenic, mint cornettos, trolls. They're all the same. Each one can kill you if you've had too much.

My point being that recently, just the last few days even, icey has been making more threads/posts than usual. And I think this is what really ticks people off (including me sometimes) because recently his threads are at every turn and the other sections become ghost towns because of it. If it was only the occasional psychotic thread, nobody would mind. It's when the activity becomes more erratic that people notice.

Then again you can please some of the people all of the time, but not all the people some of the time...

I think that's right.

Quote from: Atelier on Wed 20/04/2011 19:36:53
My point being that recently, just the last few days even, icey has been making more threads/posts than usual. And I think this is what really ticks people off (including me sometimes) because recently his threads are at every turn and the other sections become ghost towns because of it. If it was only the occasional psychotic thread, nobody would mind. It's when the activity becomes more erratic that people notice.

I don't like when that happens too, but if people enjoy participating in icey's threads more than in the others (and it sometimes seems that way), then it's their choice/fault, not icey's.

Quote from: Studio3 on Wed 20/04/2011 17:28:37

Quote from: Jim Reed on Wed 20/04/2011 15:19:38
I think you should just follow your inner moderator sense of trollish behaviour and if it says the person in question is a troll, you should stomp his ass out of existence. If someone disagrees with your judgement, just pounce on him too. I mean, who cares about fairness when oranges taste so good? =)

What kind of advice is hat? If every new person that comes to the forum and is seen as a troll in darth's eyes, you wan't him to just attack them? That's not friendly. The forum would stop get new knew members who could have been the ones to make really good games.

I think the point to be made here is that he is called Darth Mandarb. Not Luke Mandarb, Qui Gon Mandarb, Han Mandarb, Mandarbacca, Obi Wan KaMandarb or even Princess Mandarb (I hope). He is Darth Mandarb a member of the Sith. I don't remember anything about friendly Siths.

Quote from: Stee on Wed 20/04/2011 20:22:08

Quote from: Studio3 on Wed 20/04/2011 17:28:37

Quote from: Jim Reed on Wed 20/04/2011 15:19:38
I think you should just follow your inner moderator sense of trollish behaviour and if it says the person in question is a troll, you should stomp his ass out of existence. If someone disagrees with your judgement, just pounce on him too. I mean, who cares about fairness when oranges taste so good? =)

What kind of advice is hat? If every new person that comes to the forum and is seen as a troll in darth's eyes, you wan't him to just attack them? That's not friendly. The forum would stop get new knew members who could have been the ones to make really good games.

I think the point to be made here is that he is called Darth Mandarb. Not Luke Mandarb, Qui Gon Mandarb, Han Mandarb, Mandarbacca, Obi Wan KaMandarb or even Princess Mandarb (I hope). He is Darth Mandarb a member of the Sith. I don't remember anything about friendly Siths.

Of course you don't, it all happened in the future :P Still, if a troll (hate this word) comes and makes a game, I've no problem. If he/she is entertaining, I like it. Makes me want to touch myself.

This is why I never signed up and posted on the forums until many years later. Gave myself some time to grow up  :=

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 20/04/2011 17:50:05I'm with icey on this one. You didn't mention any names explicitly, but we all knew who you meant.

So I didn't mention anybody's name, yet you all [think you] knew who I was talking about?

I wonder why that is?

IT WAS ACTUALLY ME!

Cheese anyone?

Discuss

No, don't discuss, do not feed the troll!

...oops

I don't remember anyone being accused of trolling about in a looong while except for icey here, so I suppose it's pretty easy make the assumption that he's the "real" subject of this thread.

So what if Darth meant icey or Calin or Dual or CJ or me? What difference does it make? He was expressing an opinion. His opinion. Not mine. Not yours. Not CJ's. His.

He didn't lash out and start flaming anyone. He just posted his thoughts and opinions about certain types of behaviour. I think we've all had our own troll moments (like when I was seriously going to go and use AGAST after spending months learning to use AGS). If you're that bothered by Darth's post write it off as his troll moment. And stop feeding his troll moment! With every letter you type he only grows stronger!! :=

As for whether or not icey's behaviour is trollish, this is my opinion.

He says he's been here three years, but insists that this is not a long enough time for him to learn some basic AGS forum/community ettiquette. I say that's a blatant troll-lie.

He has made games with AGS, but it's almost reminiscent of when I copied the HTML of a LucasArts Press Release to create a fake Monkey Island 5 Press Release. Blatant theft and copyright infringement abounded, and not many people thought it was that funny. Copyright infringement isn't trollish, but throwing a fit anytime someone mentions it is.

Claiming that your inability to type, use proper grammar (or even something that remotely resembles proper grammar), use real words, use the correct words, use correct punctuation ("wan't", really?), and so forth is entirely the fault of your hardware is a blatant lie. Whether trollish or just immaturity is hard to say, but a lie nevertheless.

I'm typing all this on a 2 1/2" screen on my phone, so I feel I can speak with some authority there.

Giving this behaviour a pass because of his stated age of 16 is very feeding-the-troll-ish. I joined when I was 15 after lurking and guest-posting for several months. I've had troll moments, but never do I recall one that remotely comes close to the behaviour of icey here.

Bear in mind this is my opinion. You can have your own, hell, you can have an opinion about my opinion, but this opinion is mine.

Do I feel icey is a solely dedicated malicious troll? No.

Do I feel icey has exhibited, and indeed still is exhibiting very trollish behaviour? Very much so, yes.

Ok, hows about this. You tell me what exactly you wan't me to change & I will see what I can do? If you still don't like the change then screw it. This is the second time I am asking "why do people have problems with me". Fell free to say to state your opinion in any way.

P.S I only made two recent post that I guess you are saying get's more attention.
1) I asked if it was possible to play AGS games on the wii. Because I know it's possible with linux & the iphone.
2)I showed an example of something I made/edited and said it was available to those who wan't to use it.

Well you could start by making my penis a bit shorter and thicker.

Quote from: Tuomas on Wed 20/04/2011 22:04:13
Well you could start by making my penis a bit shorter and thicker.

Pause :P

With all that tongue I'd guess he's trying to lick the tip off. No matter what that song says..a penis is not, in fact, a lollipop.

Pause means NO HOMO. What he stated was indeed a "home" so I responded pause

Seriously? =/

Okay, anyway...

I don't get the icey hate right now, he has improved greatly as far as I'm concerned. His recent posts weren't ridiculous, some were entirely legitimate. I honestly can't help but feel like sometimes people pick on icey for the sake of picking on him. Sometimes he'll do exactly what we ask (showing us screenshots/videos rather than scrambling to post something new in the database, etc.)  and he still gets chewed out regardless.

I dunno. I don't have a problem with the guy.

Quote from: Domithan on Wed 20/04/2011 23:16:43
Seriously? =/

Okay, anyway...

I don't get the icey hate right now, he has improved greatly as far as I'm concerned. His recent posts weren't ridiculous, some were entirely legitimate. I honestly can't help but feel like sometimes people pick on icey for the sake of picking on him. Sometimes he'll do exactly what we ask (showing us screenshots/videos rather than scrambling to post something new in the database, etc.)  and he still gets chewed out regardless.

I dunno. I don't have a problem with the guy.

I appreciate that.

Oh the exquisite and delicious irony...

You read this rant Ice man, good.

Where are you from Icey?

Boston, I don't live in the "hood" however the amount of slang I heard up until now effects me talk/text. I tend to stay quite even when I am with friends who speak the same way. My teacher talks about how he grew up in the projects and this how he used to talk. However as he got older and was around the right people he became more capable of using big words and such.

Quote from: Studio3 on Wed 20/04/2011 21:40:24
Ok, hows about this. You tell me what exactly you wan't me to change & I will see what I can do?

"wan't"? Seriously?

We did that countless times already. A dozen people or so at least told you to stop the wannabe Square shit and publish a simple but polished game, time and again, time and again.
Why on earth would you listen now? What has changed?
The only way to convince us that you are actually willing to listen is to stop what you're doing here and have been doing for several months/years right NOW. Don't open another thread at all, unless it is a) a technical question about something you're really stuck with after having exhausted all other resources, or b) a request for beta-testers for your upcoming simple but polished game that's actually finished save for the beta-test.

I can't criticize no one, because I'm not very good at writing, but my English it's not native so I have an excuse.
Nevertheless, you sometimes write as if you didn't knew what the words mean, like "effects me", I'm guessing you tried to say "affects me" or "I tend to stay quite" my guess is "I tend to stay quiet". It's like you have never read a book. You should try to get some professional help because it's going to be difficult finding a decent job writing like that.

Quote from: Khris on Thu 21/04/2011 00:41:51

Quote from: Studio3 on Wed 20/04/2011 21:40:24
Ok, hows about this. You tell me what exactly you wan't me to change & I will see what I can do?

"wan't"? Seriously?

We did that countless times already. A dozen people or so at least told you to stop the wannabe Square shit and publish a simple but polished game, time and again, time and again.
Why on earth would you listen now? What has changed?
The only way to convince us that you are actually willing to listen is to stop what you're doing here and have been doing for several months/years right NOW. Don't open another thread at all, unless it is a) a technical question about something you're really stuck with after having exhausted all other resources, or b) a request for beta-testers for your upcoming simple but polished game that's actually finished save for the beta-test.

I can't stop posting unnecessary stuff but I can't not stop PMQ. It is not a Square wanna be anymore & hasn't been for a while but it is my sieres and I plan to finish it. Some are simple to make & the ones that are harder might not be made with AGS. Also I have plenty of other games that are to be made that were created by the Studio3 team. And that includes Gear blade.DX.

Quote from: Mati256 on Thu 21/04/2011 00:50:33
I can't criticize no one, because I'm not very good at writing, but my English it's not native so I have an excuse.
Nevertheless, you sometimes write as if you didn't knew what the words mean, like "effects me", I'm guessing you tried to say "affects me" or "I tend to stay quite" my guess is "I tend to stay quiet". It's like you have never read a book. You should try to get some professional help because it's going to be difficult finding a decent job writing like that.

Even though a word is in my vocab if I don't use the word a lot I end up forget how it's supposed to be spelled. For example: When I was young I knew both the words because & picture. However when I learned how to spell Picture I forgot how to because, Then it became the other way around. But when I made it to a higher grade I soon remembered them both.

...

I'm struggling to express myself in regards to this situation. Trolls, to me, are usually the "This game is lame!" or "Kill teh gayz!" shitweasel type, whose sole purpose is to derail general forum life.

Icey, on the other hand, is someone who simply seems incapable of controlling his desire to appear to be a "serious developer"; usually by shoehorning buzzword features into half-baked projects on a weekly basis. Unfortunately, as time goes on, this behavior seems to result in the outcome noted above - the derailment of general forum life.

What bothers me, is that nothing (Icey, please don't reply with a nonsensical answer about finishing spin-offs and planning online communities and dlc before completing Part 1 of -etc, etc...) he has added to the database could be considered a worthwhile end product. We all make projects that never go beyond a room or two of ideas, but we usually don't slap a random name on them (what is up with the Kanji and multiple semi-colon titles?!) and add them to the database or start production threads that usually end with "I'm going to make the next part better." No, you're not. You going to make it exactly the same, but with added levels of gibbering madness.

As for all the nonsense memes (Oceanspirit Dennis is just as annoying) that everybody else is responsible for...well, that's a whole other bucket of chum.

EDIT: See? He beat me to it!

I almost want to make "shoehorning buzzword features into half-baked projects" my soul purpose in life now you've said it, Christof ;D

"added levels of gibbering madness" is also going to make me masturbate.

Saberteeth raised the excellent thread in which CJ adds probably the most wisdom to this (as always):

"The problem was that more bananas make it less red. But when the diatribe is initiated, one terminate is enough."

Master quest.

LOL. And I'd hate to think it's come to this. But if it's not the hood but you know some slang, check this:

Yo icey, u bit fkin crazy ye lik bit mental comin in with bare square enix shit yeah chill b safe but yo just ride da vibe check what othas chattin ye?

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Wed 20/04/2011 20:31:34

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 20/04/2011 17:50:05I'm with icey on this one. You didn't mention any names explicitly, but we all knew who you meant.

So I didn't mention anybody's name, yet you all [think you] knew who I was talking about?

I wonder why that is?

Personally speaking, it was actually mainly because you described certain patterns of people responding to the "troll", which I recognized as things people had said to icey.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Wed 20/04/2011 21:04:24
So what if Darth meant icey or Calin or Dual or CJ or me? What difference does it make? He was expressing an opinion. His opinion. Not mine. Not yours. Not CJ's. His.

He didn't lash out and start flaming anyone. He just posted his thoughts and opinions about certain types of behaviour.

Yeah, and then he asked for our thoughts. He's free to his opinion, and we're free to disagree with it, like he said. It's all good.

Quote from: Studio3 on Thu 21/04/2011 00:59:37
Even though a word is in my vocab if I don't use the word a lot I end up forget how it's supposed to be spelled. For example: When I was young I knew both the words because & picture. However when I learned how to spell Picture I forgot how to because, Then it became the other way around. But when I made it to a higher grade I soon remembered them both.

wahahaahhaahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhaha no. fucking. way.

You ignorant traitor. :) 

Studio3, to end this matter answer this question. Are you a troll?

No.

There, It's over.

(http://www.bloodygoodhorror.com/bgh/files/imagecache/feature_img/1bodysnatchers.jpg)

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Tue 19/04/2011 23:05:04
Given certain recent events . . . I felt the need to post my feelings on the feeding of trolls. 

I don't get it. I haven't posted here in a while  ;).

Seriously though, I appreciate this thread. Some people keep feeding the trolls... Darth...

Do I really get to be the one to do this??

Oh happy day! 8)

First though, let's look at some layman's definitions:

can't: cannot
can't not: cannot not; can
cannot: the opposite of can (v.); the inability to do something
can (v.): the ability to do something

Okay, now that we've got that out of the way..

Quote from: Studio3 on Thu 21/04/2011 00:59:37I can't stop posting unnecessary stuff but I can't not stop PMQ.

See, straight from the horse's mouth. It is beyond the realm of earthly possibility for icey to discontinue posting, quote, "unnecessary stuff". It is, however, entirely possible for him to immediately and without further qualification required, discontinue the PMQ series (and all spin-offs) in its entirety.

Aren't words fun?

Quote from: Studio3 on Thu 21/04/2011 00:59:37

Quote from: Mati256 on Thu 21/04/2011 00:50:33
I can't criticize no one, because I'm not very good at writing, but my English it's not native so I have an excuse.
Nevertheless, you sometimes write as if you didn't knew what the words mean, like "effects me", I'm guessing you tried to say "affects me" or "I tend to stay quite" my guess is "I tend to stay quiet". It's like you have never read a book. You should try to get some professional help because it's going to be difficult finding a decent job writing like that.

Even though a word is in my vocab if I don't use the word a lot I end up forget how it's supposed to be spelled. For example: When I was young I knew both the words because & picture. However when I learned how to spell Picture I forgot how to because, Then it became the other way around. But when I made it to a higher grade I soon remembered them both.

Firstly, Mati your English is quite well for a non-native speaker (especially when pointing out other people's mistakes, spot on). Also, thank you for saying this. :)

As for you though icey, I don't think any of us realized that your brain operated solely in RAM with no long-term memory. Seriously, who the hell forgets how to spell one word just because they learnt to spell another? It's not even remotely the same phonetic theme. Maybe if the two words in your example were homophones, then maybe I'd believe you. But for now, I'm writing this off as yet another blatant troll-lie.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Thu 21/04/2011 05:24:32
Firstly, Mati your English is quite well

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. . . . . . . .. . . . . .,.-”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .“-.,
. . . . .. . . . . . ..,/. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ”:,
. . . . . . . .. .,?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\,
. . . . . . . . . /. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,}
. . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`^`.}
. . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:”. . . ./
. . . . . . .?. . . __. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :`. . . ./
. . . . . . . /__.(. . .“~-,_. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`. . . .. ./
. . . . . . /(_. . ”~,_. . . ..“~,_. . . . . . . . . .,:`. . . . _/
. . . .. .{.._$;_. . .”=,_. . . .“-,_. . . ,.-~-,}, .~”; /. .. .}
. . .. . .((. . .*~_. . . .”=-._. . .“;,,./`. . /” . . . ./. .. ../
. . . .. . .\`~,. . ..“~.,. . . . . . . . . ..`. . .}. . . . . . ../
. . . . . .(. ..`=-,,. . . .`. . . . . . . . . . . ..(. . . ;_,,-”
. . . . . ../.`~,. . ..`-.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..\. . /\
. . . . . . \`~.*-,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..|,./.....\,__
,,_. . . . . }.>-._\. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|. . . . . . ..`=~-,
. .. `=~-,_\_. . . `\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\
. . . . . . . . . .`=~-,,.\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . `:,, . . . . . . . . . . . . . `\. . . . . . ..__
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .`=-,. . . . . . . . . .,%`>--

It's actually quite funny. Last time I used that image, it was in response to one of Icey's quotes. I forgive you, though.

Anyway Icey, do what I do. If you can't spell something correctly, look up the word. Use Dictionary.com or Google. Also, you should have a spell-checker installed at ALL TIMES!

I'm sorry, but I used the adjective well (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/well) to describe the noun (English, specifically that of Mati) as being "satisfactory or good" (definition 7). I don't exactly see the problem there. Even if others did contest me, I would still defend it as being accurate spoken grammar within the laws of common Amerikaan English.

Aahahahaha. Let's all point and laugh at the kid with learning difficulties. Aahahahaha. He seems to have trouble understanding concepts that I can easily comprehend. Aahahahaha. It's funny because he's inferior to me. Aahahahaha. We should taunt, tease, humiliate and generally bully him until he just GIVES UP TRYING TO DO THE THINGS HE ENJOYS AND FUCKS OFF! AAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2724/127995013893.jpg)

I can feel a disturbance in the Force. It is as if the sacred AGS forums were being divided into two...

I dislike this.

Perhaps it is time to end this discussion here, before any true damage is done. If AGS forums' moderation does not react to suspected trolls, then this thinly veiled argument is pointless. I may not agree with the situation, but we can only demand so much from anyone.

Quote from: Studio3 on Thu 21/04/2011 00:59:37I can't stop posting unnecessary stuff but I can't not stop PMQ. It is not a Square wanna be anymore & hasn't been for a while but it is my sieres and I plan to finish it. Some are simple to make & the ones that are harder might not be made with AGS. Also I have plenty of other games that are to be made that were created by the Studio3 team. And that includes Gear blade.DX.

I assume you meant "I can stop posting unnecessary stuff" ...
Also, regardless of what YOU think, I'm fairly sure every other person here perceives every single one of your games as Square wannabe, and that's what counts. (This is something you still don't understand: if you present ten people with something and all of them say it's a turd, it won't stop being perceived as a turd by them just because you say it isn't a turd. To them, it's still a turd. Try to remember this.)

If you must do a square game, why can't you do a simple but polished adventure game set in the Square universe?
Just quit all the pretentious facebook/ESRB/CATB/online bullshit. QUIT IT NOW.
Drop trying to emulate RPG battles until you can actually code RPG battles.
Stick to what you can do and don't forget to turn on your brain in the mornings (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=43321.msg576035#msg576035) and this community might yet give you the chance of being taken seriously again.

This isn't even worth fighting for. I have no statements or thoughts or opinions to add anymore. I mean advice-wise, you/we've told him all there is to it. Now, let time take over.

This whole thing will end up completely retarded in several posts.

Quote from: WHAM on Thu 21/04/2011 10:57:26I can feel a disturbance in the Force. It is as if the sacred AGS forums were being divided into two...
I dislike this.

I dislike it too... it's another example of how trolls can disrupt a community's over-all vibe.

It really was not my intention for this to turn into troll food/bait or cause any division ... I just wanted an honest discussion on the feeding of trolls.

It may be too late to turn this away from what it has become but I wanted to share another opinion on the matter;  

Quote from: LimpingFish on Thu 21/04/2011 01:04:09I'm struggling to express myself in regards to this situation. Trolls, to me, are usually the "This game is lame!" or "Kill teh gayz!" shitweasel type, whose sole purpose is to derail general forum life.

I agree this is part of a troll's repertoire.  To my mind a troll is anybody seeking attention and doing anything to get that attention.  They will do/say something obviously wrong, or off, or silly, or an easy-to-detect lie, etc. simply because they know it'll generate a response.  They crave the attention.  Some trolls just revel in the attention and are blatant about it (as-in your example), others disguise and claim they don't know why people think this thus perpetuating the trolling in an endless cycle.

As I mentioned before; Let's say somebody thought this thread was about them (even though no names were mentioned) and they post in here to proclaim their innocence and try to justify their troll behavior.  This is trolling.  It's turning the focus onto themselves and thus sparking pages of troll v anti-troll posts.  The non-trolling thing to do would have been to simply not post at all and prove the [assumed] implication false.  But a troll cannot do this as that would not satiate the craving for attention.  The purpose of this thread, for my part, was not to provide this "troll bait" but it was, I think, inevitable that a thread like this could be viewed/used as such given the subject matter.

I knew this would devolve as it did (just the nature of things) but I did get some good insight into my initial musings so to those who provided these insights, I give thanks.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Thu 21/04/2011 13:58:18
Let's say somebody thought this thread was about them (even though no names were mentioned) and they post in here to proclaim their innocence and try to justify their troll behavior.  This is trolling.  It's turning the focus onto themselves and thus sparking pages of troll v anti-troll posts.  The non-trolling thing to do would have been to simply not post at all and prove the [assumed] implication false.

I respect what you have to say Darth, but there is a witch trial logic to that. Defending yourself from an accusation can't make you guilty of that accusation.

I accept that you didn't mention Studio 3 by name, but he was clearly the reason for the thread.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Thu 21/04/2011 13:58:18
[As I mentioned before; Let's say somebody thought this thread was about them (even though no names were mentioned) and they post in here to proclaim their innocence and try to justify their troll behavior.  This is trolling.

Not necessarily.  It could just be a guy quite rightfully trying to defend himself, because an entire new thread has been created for the sole purpose of calling him a troll.  Unfortunately, the accused troll in question has been forced into a position of having to constantly explain himself and defend his every move, and each time he does that, his post is picked apart for grammar and spelling errors and he is forced to explain himself again and ad infinitum.

He's only a troll insofar as he's been given that label.  But if we take away that label for a minute, what we've really got is just a highly enthusiastic and energetic young game-developer in the making, who's unfortunately not brilliant at spelling.

Quote from: Ali on Thu 21/04/2011 14:15:28I respect what you have to say Darth, but there is a witch trial logic to that. Defending yourself from an accusation can't make you guilty of that accusation.

No accusation was made against a specific person so there would be no need to defend one's self from it.  To do so indicates guilt, rather than defending from it.

It's like if a cop says, "John Doe was murdered last night!" and the person he is saying that to immediately replies with, "I didn't have anything to do with that!"  No accusation was made, so why did the guy feel the need to proclaim his innocence?

Quote from: Ali on Thu 21/04/2011 14:15:28I accept that you didn't mention Studio 3 by name, but he was clearly the reason for the thread.

I find it funny how everybody is certain who this thread is about!

Quote from: Stupot on Thu 21/04/2011 14:28:58Not necessarily.  It could just be a guy quite rightfully trying to defend himself, because an entire new thread has been created for the sole purpose of calling him a troll

But I didn't call anybody a troll.  So why should this (or any) person feel the need to post in here defending themselves?  To troll for attention.

As WHAM pointed out all this is accomplishing is division ... this wasn't my intent.  I really don't wish to continue a discussion about perceived/assumed slights to anybody in particular.

Since so many of us in here seem to think it's possible to redeem a troll perhaps we could find a way to put this train back on the rails and get back to the original premise of the thread?

This thread is stupid  :P

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Thu 21/04/2011 13:58:18
They will do/say something obviously wrong, or off, or silly, or an easy-to-detect lie, etc. simply because they know it'll generate a response.

Like following someone around the forum, replying to every one of their posts by teasing them about every misplaced apostrophe. Or continually telling them that nobody cares about the stuff they care about, so they should just stop doing it. By my count, there are 5 or 6 trolls around here, none of which is Icey.

This used to be a nice neighbourhood until that new kid moved in, now all the other kids have suddenly turned into bullies. They never used to bully each other, so we're entirely justified in blaming the new kid for being an easy target.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Thu 21/04/2011 14:59:01
No accusation was made against a specific person so there would be no need to defend one's self from it.  To do so indicates guilt, rather than defending from it.

It's like if a cop says, "John Doe was murdered last night!" and the person he is saying that to immediately replies with, "I didn't have anything to do with that!"  No accusation was made, so why did the guy feel the need to proclaim his innocence?

Quote from: Ali on Thu 21/04/2011 14:15:28I accept that you didn't mention Studio 3 by name, but he was clearly the reason for the thread.

I find it funny how everybody is certain who this thread is about!

Quote from: Stupot on Thu 21/04/2011 14:28:58Not necessarily.  It could just be a guy quite rightfully trying to defend himself, because an entire new thread has been created for the sole purpose of calling him a troll

But I didn't call anybody a troll.  So why should this (or any) person feel the need to post in here defending themselves?  To troll for attention.

I think you're being a bit disingenuous, Darth. No, you didn't name any names, but you gave specific details that clearly identified who you were talking about. For example that it's someone whose spelling is constantly being corrected, and who gets unheeded advice to change his attitude, and is often mocked and called a troll, but is also defended and found funny by some people. And you posted this a couple of days after the latest burst of iceyness.

Just because you didn't explicitly say it doesn't mean you didn't communicate it clearly to anyone who knows the situation. So yeah, you did make an accusation. And therefore the accused should have the opportunity to defend himself. As Ali said, to claim that disputing the accusation is proof of the accusation amounts to witch trial-logic.

On the subject of trolls, a troll to me is someone who tries to piss people off for fun by posting stuff they don't really mean. If it's sincere or it's not malicious, then it's not trolling, it's just someone who happens to push your buttons. Merely seeking attention (particularly if it's not specifically negative attention) does not by itself amount to trolling. For example, someone who creates cool and attractive adventure games and posts them here is not trolling, even if he or she does it only because of a craving for attention and praise.

How silly.

See darth, Other people notice it and what I mean in my reply's despite how I spell. You didn't say my name however you you posted this the same day(I think) I made the post about AGS/Facebook. You say you didn't call no body a troll! You said troll about 29 times in your first post. That is the most I have seen anyone say troll in a single post. P.S. I can also make it 30 if I include the topic name.

Quote from: Ultra Magnus on Thu 21/04/2011 15:01:29

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Thu 21/04/2011 13:58:18
They will do/say something obviously wrong, or off, or silly, or an easy-to-detect lie, etc. simply because they know it'll generate a response.

Like following someone around the forum, replying to every one of their posts by teasing them about every misplaced apostrophe. Or continually telling them that nobody cares about the stuff they care about, so they should just stop doing it. By my count, there are 5 or 6 trolls around here, none of which is Icey.

This used to be a nice neighbourhood until that new kid moved in, now all the other kids have suddenly turned into bullies. They never used to bully each other, so we're entirely justified in blaming the new kid for being an easy target.

You seem to have missed the last one or two years of Icey threads. We are the trolls? Riiiiight.

Regardless of who is the troll or not. You don't have to constantly pick on me. If you don't like what I post then you don't have to respond with a negative attitude. It's not like I am going to make like 5 topic consisting of the same thing just because I am "looking for attention".

Oh and Btw.

The post about adding a like button to my sig or on my topic turned out to be a fail. However I found that is was possible but I had go into the HTML of the page to insert a like button. Yes it was sorta a waste of time but I proved that it was possible. And I think the forums design is quite dull. It's seems like it's been this way for a while now. It wouldn't kill to add a like button or a connect button so that people can click that button and log right in while being connected to Facebook or twitter I think. But that's my opinion.

Icey, it might be a good idea to enter the next MAGS. That way you can make a small game to show everybody you can do things other than FF rip-offs. The guidelines will also help to focus creativity.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Thu 21/04/2011 08:23:27
I'm sorry, but I used the adjective well (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/well) to describe the noun (English, specifically that of Mati) as being "satisfactory or good" (definition 7). I don't exactly see the problem there. Even if others did contest me, I would still defend it as being accurate spoken grammar within the laws of common Amerikaan English.

I apologize. I meant nothing more than a simple joke, and I should have realized that anyone (including yourself) could have easily misperceived it. I really meant nothing more than that.

Also, having looked at your definition, I admit that your usage does appear to be correct, though I was taught to use "good" in that situation. I guess I'm guilty as charged.

Quote from: Studio3 on Thu 21/04/2011 17:40:34
Regardless of who is the troll or not. You don't have to constantly pick on me. If you don't like what I post then you don't have to respond with a negative attitude.

I remember a very similar thread you created a long time ago. In it, you asked why everyone makes fun of you. In the end, we revealed that one of the main reasons is that you don't take the time to proofread your posts. If you don't submit correctly-spelled, somewhat grammatically correct (I admit that I can be guilty of the latter) posts, no one is going to take you seriously. It tells everyone that you don't care about the community.

That's the problem. most of you judge people on certain things. If I fix my grammar then every one will be happy? Ok but just cause- You know what, what's the point. Fine I will check extra hard as to how I spell things. I will look at other things more that way I have a wider view at making a game other then my infamous PMQ series.

Quote from: grim107 on Thu 21/04/2011 18:25:49
I remember a very similar thread you created a long time ago. In it, you asked why everyone makes fun of you.

Yeah And with in that thread some of you started talking about ice cream & sweats.

Quote from: Atelier on Thu 21/04/2011 18:12:20
Icey, it might be a good idea to enter the next MAGS. That way you can make a small game to show everybody you can do things other than FF rip-offs. The guidelines will also help to focus creativity.

I might enter it. I only have 9 days left but it's possible for me to do make something.

Whilst I disagree with Darth's most recent comment,

Quote...I didn't call anybody a troll...

I don't see how people can disagree with his/Monkey's overall point.

Even if he hadn't referred to actions in particular and spoke only about trolls in general, I find it hard to believe that anyone would have had any trouble figuring out who this applies to in the AGS Community.

There was a brief period last year where Icey started posting in less frequently and in a mature manner; proving he can do it, then he regressed.

How long does it take to learn the appropriate way to interact with people in a given medium, when one is frequently informed whether they are doing the right or wrong thing? People were saying he'd "grow out of it soon" over a year ago, yet we are still faced with someone who doesn't proof read/ spell check their posts and rarely (if ever) takes the suggestions and advice of others on board, even when he specifically asks for them.

Quote from: Studio3 on Thu 21/04/2011 00:59:37
Even though a word is in my vocab if I don't use the word a lot I end up forget how it's supposed to be spelled. For example: When I was young I knew both the words because & picture. However when I learned how to spell Picture I forgot how to because, Then it became the other way around. But when I made it to a higher grade I soon remembered them both.

Seriously? I find it hard to describe this as anything other that rediculous. I understand that some people have words that they struggle with, but your poor grammar/spelling is not consistent. Certainly not to the extent that you can identify the specific word that you learned to unlearn another.
Besides, spell check. It's not that hard.

QuoteKeep in mind that I am 16 & I only been here 3 years.

Quotethe amount of slang I heard up until now effects me talk/text

Quotemy laptop mouse pad is leveled in a way that when I go for a letter I might move the mouse/tap it at the same time thus moving me around in my typing

Quoteif I don't press hard enough on the keys on my laptop then it wont put the letter.

Would you like to make any more excuses? Are you standing by the idea that all of these are true? Or that some of them were lies. Regardless... spellcheck will inform you of your mistakes!

I'm not usually one to post in Icey's threads, and haven't since my last attempt to be constructive in the "why does everyone Icey's problem with me" thread, but I just don't see how someone who disregards the rules/forum etiquette so often can
a) Have no warnings/ formal notice that he is in the wrong.
b) Have any kind of support from the general public regarding these actions.

Quote from: IceCakeOk, hows about this. You tell me what exactly you wan't me to change & I will see what I can do? If you still don't like the change then screw it. This is the second time I am asking "why do people have problems with me". Fell free to say to state your opinion in any way.

A few things off the top of my head:
  Spell check.
  Re-read posts before you hit the 'post' button.
  Read the manual (if you have... no harm in reading it again).
  Make a normal game or two before you try to make another square-ripoff / online / DLC bullshit that you're not skilled enough to make.
  Heed the advice of those patient enough to help you in the technical forum, rather than just playing dumb/pestering them until they give you the code such that you can copy it without understanding it at all.
  Title your games in English. They are poorly translated, so the Japanese text is of no use to anyone.

But hey... it's not like you'll ever take any of this on board....

Quote from: grim107 on Thu 21/04/2011 18:25:49
I apologize. I meant nothing more than a simple joke, and I should have realized that anyone (including yourself) could have easily misperceived it. I really meant nothing more than that.

Also, having looked at your definition, I admit that your usage does appear to be correct, though I was taught to use "good" in that situation. I guess I'm guilty as charged.

Not to derail this very important thread, but I don't think it is correct. I think there are constraints on how "well" can be used as an adjective (not captured in the dictionary), which exclude this case. The rule taught in schools that "well" can only be used as an adjective when talking about health and wellbeing is clearly not 100% true ("it's just as well" etc.), but it captures most of the cases.

monkey is probably right that it's something people might say in spoken conversation, but I also think it's something a lot of people would notice as being technically wrong, and an editor would certainly correct.

@Scarab: When ever people give me advice I take however it is also how you say it. Layer(I can't remember how to spell it) was the only one who broke it down as to why I should try and improve my grammar(spell check, add . , stuff like that) And I was able to add . , '

But despite the fact that I am trying some of you say I am not. I look at a lot of my old threads. I can hardly read anything I said. Butt know I notice that I am getting better at it. I use Google translate to translate my stuff to Japaneses. I don't think I will use the Japaneses font any more now that I got my old normal font back.

Also sometimes spell check doesn't work.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Thu 21/04/2011 14:59:01Since so many of us in here seem to think it's possible to redeem a troll perhaps we could find a way to put this train back on the rails and get back to the original premise of the thread?

I guess not.

If I had wanted to call a [specific] person a troll, I'd have called them a troll straight-up.  I don't beat around the bush (you should all know this by now).  What I wanted was to have a discussion on the topic of trolls.

A person can interpret what I wrote however they want, that's on them.  What that person can not do is speak as if they know my intentions better than I know them myself.

Don't you find it ironic that people keep saying your were talking about me but know mater how you say it doesn't stop them from point out basic details on who you were referring to.

Well I fell that way when you/others say I am a troll but even though I defend my self in many way it still doesn't seem like I did any effort.

I sure believe Darth that he wanted to start a thread about trolls in general and his thoughts on what constitutes feeding them.
Still, it was obvious that the discussion would soon focus on Icey specifically.

That said, I guess Darth's main intention was to remind people how to stop trolling in its tracks with the hope of some actual implementation (as opposed to start a thinly veiled attack on Icey).

I agree totally with you Khris. Regardless of whether icey inspired this thread, I feel that its stated purpose was, in fact, genuine.

Very few of you have made direct response to my evaluations of icey's behaviour. In fact, it seems that those who have were pretty well in agreement with me. So regardless of what icey might say about not being a troll, I still hold to my aforementioned opinion. Troll, no; trollish behaviour, yes. Feel free to explain why I'm wrong if you feel you can back it up.

But that's not the point of this thread anyway. The point is that regardless of who it is or why they're doing it, trollish behaviour shouldn't simply be brushed under the rug. I stated before that many (if not all) of us have had troll moments..outbursts of trollish behaviour. The problem becomes when the troll moment comes too frequently, or simply doesn't know when to stop.

This isn't just about icey, it's about all of us in this AGSociety and what we, as a community are or are not willing to accept of other people's behaviour. The fact that this has become a somewhat heated debate just goes to show that we don't have an existing, well-defined consensus on the matter, and indeed that defining one wouldn't be as simple as a single draft forum constitution.

We should come to a reasonable level of agreement regarding acceptable behaviour, and should enforce those rules. Determining intent can be extremely difficult, so we should focus more on frequency of posting, appropriateness of posts for the forum, and the nature of the responses given by the poster in question.

These are my thoughts on the matter. Feel free to accuse me of trolling and begin hate-bashing now. :=

Also, regarding my usage of "well" as an adjective, I probably wouldn't write it that way normally,!and so I don't really know why I did, but I still feel it was grammatically correct. Either way, no need to derail this topic any further. 8)

Quote from: Khris on Thu 21/04/2011 20:25:24That said, I guess Darth's main intention was to remind people how to stop trolling in its tracks with the hope of some actual implementation (as opposed to start a thinly veiled attack on Icey).

A few years back I created some forum software (using coldfusion) and I addressed the issue of trolls as follows:

There's a 'flag' in the member's table called isTroll (datatype: date/time).  When a person is determined to be a troll (admin consensus) that user is flagged as a troll and the date of the flagging is entered into the isTroll column.  From then on, all of the troll's posts/threads after the isTroll date will be invisible to all users except the troll themselves (and top level admins).  In this way no matter what the troll posts, nobody can see it.  So nobody replies to it.  Nobody feeds the troll and it slinks back to live under its bridge.

It works better than banning because banning is obvious to the troll and they can then just come back as a new member and start again.  If they feel the community just doesn't feed them, they aren't compelled to come back.

Works like a charm.

How ever that even if you don't ban a "Troll" why would that stop them from making a new account to get there point across? I would do it however I really wouldn't cause that would prove (Some people) right about me being a troll. Also do you really have that much power? :o

Some thoughts on why people feed trolls, not in any way claiming to be complete or universally applicable:

- The trolls' topics/posts are usually addressing everyone (no special technical knowledge required) and - explicitly or implicitly - provoke opinionated (not factual) answers. It's easy for everyone to reply to such a topic, easier for example than to make a paintover or to try out some code and look things up in the manual (or other things in other forums). That way, you feel like you have contributed to the community (like "Yayyy, I shared my thoughts on why people feed trolls! Now I helped everyone to widen their horizon!" :=)
Of course I don't mean every question for opinions to be a troll post, but they often contain something you can strongly disagree with, judge as plain stupid, and things like this.

- Trolls give easy targets if they annoy most people. You know that everyone else is annoyed by them, so you can easily call the trolls out because you know you'll get backed up by the majority of the active community.

- People have experienced bullying (as victims, bystanders, or indirectly through media etc.) and feel uncomfortable seeing everybody turning against one person, at least after a while, so they try to defend the troll.
- Similarly, people are looking for peace and want to mediate between the troll and the troll-haiting community, hence give advices or defend the troll to give some counter-weight.

- Trolls may provoke overreactions by otherwise moderate users, or dumb reactions by not-openly-dumb users, which amuses other people, and some of these other people will defend the trolls, as long as they don't overdo it (in their sympathizers' opinion).

(I may or may not be guilty of, and may or may not endorse some of these behaviours)

Quote from: Ultra Magnus on Thu 21/04/2011 15:01:29
By my count, there are 5 or 6 trolls around here, none of which is Icey.

This used to be a nice neighbourhood until that new kid moved in, now all the other kids have suddenly turned into bullies. They never used to bully each other, so we're entirely justified in blaming the new kid for being an easy target.

I don't agree with this at all. Nobody seems to be bullying Icey (or anybody else) because he's "new" or because he's young, or because he likes Square Enix. Fuck, I like Square Enix. Nobody is bullying him for making fan games.

Nobody is bullying him, period. Sorry to dash the assumption the AGS has finally joined the rest of the internet cesspool, but this has never been and never will be the style of this community.

The reason we all thought of Icey (and not, say, that Maniac Mansion dude who consistently posted backgrounds in the CL, but who refused to take actual criticism) when Darth posted a general rant against trolls (all of which seems valid to me), is because his behavior hits just about all of Darth's key points, and because there's almost nobody else who qualifies as a persistent troll. If Icey is honestly behaving this way because he simply loves games and wants to share this with the world, that doesn't mean we can't call him on it if he becomes a nuisance.

The people who go out of their way to make ironic statements and who attempt to meme-ify Icey should share the blame, since they feed Icey's desire to continue more and more outlandish projects. Oceanspirit Dennis has now become part of Icey-World cannon, thanks largely to those games created as a way to poke fun of (to some) the ludicrous nature of Icey's Square fixation. The irony has been nullified. The creators of these games are now intrinsically linked to all this bullshit, seeing as Icey credits anybody who contributed, unwittingly or otherwise, to his lore. Just take a look at his later game entries in the database.

But let's be clear. I (and I'm assuming almost everybody else to be the same) have nothing personal against Icey. He's most likely a regular kid, one who is perfectly agreeable in real life. But his internet persona is unacceptably uncooperative and persistently flaky, whether he intends it to be or not. And while some people try to help him develop his coding/art/design skills, it ends up being lost among his dreams of multimedia dominance. He wants a fan community, ERSB ratings, a booth at the Tokyo Game Show, foil-embossed instruction booklets...everything except the ability to release a playable game. The game is peripheral to his vision.

If he finds people willing to join him on this epic journey of misguided delusion, there's nothing stopping him from having his own forums; somewhere where he won't have to deal with all of this negativity.

But he keeps coming back here. Which either means he's some flavour of simpleton, or he's a troll. All we know for sure is that he's sixteen and loves Square Enix. We haven't ruled out that he may be mentally challenged, but it think it's a little insulting for some people to presume that he is.

Like I said in my first post, I'm ultimately unsure of my feelings towards this situation. Obvious trolls are so much easier to deal with. Icey is like a legless puppy, desperate to impress it's uncaring master by flailing across the living room carpet on it's stumps. You don't know whether you should cry, or end it's suffering.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Thu 21/04/2011 21:07:32
From then on, all of the troll's posts/threads after the isTroll date will be invisible to all users except the troll themselves (and top level admins).  In this way no matter what the troll posts, nobody can see it.  So nobody replies to it.

I like this.

Ok, I have a favor to ask. One day I plan to make a game about about this situation. However it will not be a rude game that is made to get back at any one. It will be a game that expresses the felling of a person who is thrown into a awful category and dwells over the fact but try's to et take out the head of the system that started it all but gives up in the end as it would prove the systems point. I am really have been putting a lot of thought into this. can someone tell me the 5 or 6 people who are considered as troll?

Quote from: LimpingFish on Thu 21/04/2011 22:09:55
Nobody is bullying him, period.

Must just be my imagination, then. If nobody else thinks that constantly undermining somebody's self-esteem for shits and giggles constitutes bullying, then I guess it's all fine. If nobody else thinks that maybe some replies to Icey's recent posts have been a tad disproportionate, then I guess that's fine too. The important thing is that Icey doesn't feel he's being bullied.

Quote from: Studio3 on Wed 20/04/2011 10:46:59
I am being picked on by adults who acted like kids...
If this was school some might call this bullying...

Ah.
But what does Icey know, right? He can't even use proper grammar.

Anyway, bottom line: I think that some people have been going a bit too far recently, especially since it is obvious to a few of us that over the past few months Icey has really been trying to take the advice given to him, and has shown some improvement. I'm not going to name anybody, but now I've said my piece, and I will leave this thread alone.

Quote from: Ultra Magnus on Thu 21/04/2011 23:00:54

Quote from: LimpingFish on Thu 21/04/2011 22:09:55
Nobody is bullying him, period.

Must just be my imagination, then. If nobody else thinks that constantly undermining somebody's self-esteem for shits and giggles constitutes bullying, then I guess it's all fine. If nobody else thinks that maybe some replies to Icey's recent posts have been a tad disproportionate, then I guess that's fine too. The important thing is that Icey doesn't feel he's being bullied.

Quote from: Studio3 on Wed 20/04/2011 10:46:59
I am being picked on by adults who acted like kids...
If this was school some might call this bullying...

Ah.
But what does Icey know, right? He can't even use proper grammar.

Why bother explaining anything, when this condescending shite is what you get in return?

Please don't try to turn this into a situation where you get to play the bigger man. If Icey wants to equate this situation to bullying, that's up to him. That's usually the last resort of somebody who doesn't want to address their own behavior, and would rather appear to be victimized. The fact that you are choosing to buy into that doesn't automatically invalidate opposing points or make people into bullies.

While a handful of people have, in the past, said something akin to "Please fuck off!" in response to some of Icey's threads, that doesn't prove that vindictive bullying is indicative of the community's response to Icey in general. Perhaps those people were just tired of having to deal with him.

Look at his last post. He hasn't even realized what we're talking about. It's like screaming at a sack of flour.

I know what you are talking about and I know what the problem is. Ooh ohh here's a great idea! Why don't we all just get on with our lives and just see if I keep progressing our not. Not saying that you have to constantly watch me, just once in a while look at my post. That way you can't say I don't take any advice.

Quote from: Studio3 on Thu 21/04/2011 23:33:49
Why don't we all just get on with our lives and just see if I keep progressing our not. Not saying that you have to constantly watch me, just once in a while look at my post. That way you can't say I don't take any advice.

I have a similar idea. Keep making your games, keep improving, but only share them with us when you feel you've got something substantial. Only post when you've already spread the game around your circle of friends and have gotten feedback from them, and only when you have done this with multiple iterations of the same game. Using these forums to beta-test every idea that enters your head will only result in a negative response; as has been proven here.

Like I said earlier, I've don't have a vested interest in haranguing you for the hell of it. I doubt many other people have either. But I'm not surprised at the way things have turned out. People are just exasperated. There's little you can do change their minds, except give the community some space.

Ok, I can do that. I can still ask for help right? Because I have a basic problem and I need to ask it.

Quote from: LimpingFish on Thu 21/04/2011 23:13:33
Please don't try to turn this into a situation where you get to play the bigger man.

I am actually, honestly quite offended by that. Congratulations. It doesn't happen often.

QuoteIf Icey wants to equate this situation to bullying, that's up to him. That's usually the last resort of somebody who doesn't want to address their own behavior, and would rather appear to be victimized. The fact that you are choosing to buy into that doesn't automatically invalidate opposing points or make people into bullies.

I'm not buying into anything. I'm describing the situation as I see it from my point of view, just like you are. The fact that you don't agree with me does not automatically give you the right to just write my opinion off like that. The reason why I quoted Icey is because I figure if anyone was an authority on how he feels about this, it'd be himself. And, you know, sometimes when people say they're being bullied, it means they really do feel like they're being bullied. Sure, you can write it off as him just trying to get some sympathy if you want, but that doesn't change my opinion of the events that led to him saying it.

QuoteWhile a handful of people have, in the past, said something akin to "Please fuck off!" in response to some of Icey's threads, that doesn't prove that vindictive bullying is indicative of the community's response to Icey in general. Perhaps those people were just tired of having to deal with him.

Firstly, I didn't say anything about "vindictive bullying". Ask any playground bully about their situation and most will say something to the effect of "we're only playing around", but that doesn't mean that everyone involved feels the same way.
Secondly, I also didn't say anything about "the community's response to Icey in general". I said "some people".
Lastly, you seem to be equating bullying with direct attacks, whereas I specifically mentioned "constantly undermining [his] self-esteem". You may not agree with me that this constitutes bullying, so call it whatever you want, but it still makes me feel uncomfortable seeing it happen.

tl;dr - We disagree on how we see the situation. Fine. I'm going to bed.

@TomatoesInTheHead - very good points!  I think another reason people attack a troll is in defense of the forums.  As I've said a troll can have a negative effect on a forums and people like their forums so they out swords and defend their castle!

The problem I have with this (and with, as you said, when they try to take the "I told people why not to feed the troll!" approach) is that, in the end, it's just feeding the troll anyway.  It's why, once I determine somebody is trolling I just don't reply to them (or the entire thread for the most part).  I just stay out of the thread(s) and don't feed the [ambiguously defined] troll.

@Ultra Magnus: I appreciated that you noticed I wasn't just using bullying as a excuse. And also noticed how I felt about the matter.

I don't even want to take a part in this whole discussion at large, just want to point out that NOBODY in this community has bullied you, Studio3, or any other member in the community one bit. If you act like an idiot over and over again, people will point it out and possibly get annoyed. That's understandable and nobody's fault but your own. That is NOT (cyber-) bullying.

Acting like a damn idiot is making a thread that is full of damn gibberish. bcsdubcucsodcfhcbsdonco dsc! = acting like a idiot. I merrily express a creation I came up with or I ask a question.

Quote from: Ultra Magnus on Fri 22/04/2011 00:31:24
I am actually, honestly quite offended by that. Congratulations. It doesn't happen often.

Then that makes two of us.

Quote from: Ultra Magnus
I'm not buying into anything. I'm describing the situation as I see it from my point of view, just like you are. The fact that you don't agree with me does not automatically give you the right to just write my opinion off like that. The reason why I quoted Icey is because I figure if anyone was an authority on how he feels about this, it'd be himself. And, you know, sometimes when people say they're being bullied, it means they really do feel like they're being bullied.

No, you came into this debate via a condescending remark...

Quote from: Ultra MagnusAahahahaha. Let's all point and laugh at the kid with learning difficulties. Aahahahaha. He seems to have trouble understanding concepts that I can easily comprehend. Aahahahaha. It's funny because he's inferior to me. Aahahahaha. We should taunt, tease, humiliate and generally bully him until he just GIVES UP TRYING TO DO THE THINGS HE ENJOYS AND FUCKS OFF! AAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

...while doing exactly what you are now accusing me of. You raised bullying, of which you have no proof or additional information, learning disability, which you also have no proof or additional information, and generally decided the whole point of this thread ("Let's all...") was to belittle Icey into leaving. You also decided that ("It's funny because he's inferior to me.") we are all elitist pricks.

So, basically, you have fuck all right to be offended.

Quote from: Ultra Magnus
Firstly, I didn't say anything about "vindictive bullying". Secondly, I also didn't say anything about "the community's response to Icey in general". I said "some people".

Which would explain...

Quote from: Ultra Magnus
This used to be a nice neighbourhood until that new kid moved in, now all the other kids have suddenly turned into bullies. They never used to bully each other, so we're entirely justified in blaming the new kid for being an easy target.

And...

Quote from: Ultra Magnus
If nobody else thinks that constantly undermining somebody's self-esteem for shits and giggles constitutes bullying, then I guess it's all fine.

To me, bullying someone for shits and giggles is vindictive.

You decided, based on a single cry of bullying, that Icey is a defenseless victim, and that you were going to show us what scurrilous pricks we all are. Congratulations. You have now validated Icey's behavior and given him a pass to label everyone who questions him as being a bully.

You've also made me go back and collect quotes and check my formatting while assembling this post, which is the worst offense of all.

Quote from: Studio3 on Fri 22/04/2011 01:13:19
I merrily express a creation I came up with or I ask a question.

I'm not the kind of person who types "sigh"...so I won't.

Hyperbole, noun: Deliberate exaggeration or overstatement; especially as a literary or rhetorical device.
Metaphor, noun: The use of a word or phrase to refer to something that it isn’t, invoking a direct similarity between the word or phrase used and the thing described.

I wasn't literally talking about a special-needs kid being picked on by the other kids in my neighbourhood. You clearly understand these concepts, otherwise you no doubt would have called me out for posting non-sequiturs. Therefore, I deduce that you are deliberately misunderstanding me in order to get a reaction. Therefore, you be a troll, and I be ignoring you now.

Night night. :-*

Quote from: Ultra Magnus on Fri 22/04/2011 02:01:38
Hyperbole, noun: Deliberate exaggeration or overstatement; especially as a literary or rhetorical device.
Metaphor, noun: The use of a word or phrase to refer to something that it isn’t, invoking a direct similarity between the word or phrase used and the thing described.

I wasn't literally talking about a special-needs kid being picked on by the other kids in my neighbourhood. You clearly understand these concepts, otherwise you no doubt would have called me out for posting non-sequiturs. Therefore, I deduce that you are deliberately misunderstanding me in order to get a reaction. Therefore, you be a troll, and I be ignoring you now.

Night night. :-*

What? Do you always conduct conversations in this pseudo-sarcastic, backwards talk?

I was calling you out on using the metaphor of a bullied retarded kid, real or otherwise, to draw a parallel with this thread and/or people's general behavior towards Icey; a silly, knee-jerk argument which brought nothing to this debate, and seemed to exist only to satisfy your own ego.

Regardless, Icey has mentioned both bullying and (weirdly) alluded to some form of learning disability in this very thread, which leaves your metaphor lacking in the metaphorical stakes. You see the predicament I'm in...are you telling me that your metaphor was taken out of context, or that it wasn't meant to comment on how you see Icey and our behavior towards him, but was only a meaningless glib remark, devoid of constructive debate, and purposely posted to get a rise out of...?

Hang on to that dictionary, though.

Quote from: Studio3 on Thu 21/04/2011 23:33:49Why don't we all just get on with our lives and just see if I keep progressing our not. Not saying that you have to constantly watch me, just once in a while look at my post. That way you can't say I don't take any advice.

Because, honestly the three years you've been here has left us with an inadequate data pool to glean any idea of your behaviour; you know, like how it's humanly impossible to learn forum ettiquette within a three year time span.

Bloody hell I wish someone would come out and say I'm bullying this kid. I'm not joking, nor am I being sarcastic. I really, really would love to defend myself. See, coz time and again I've spoken out against him, but consider this. I have given him legitimate help and advice, and been ignored. I have provided example after example to try and help him. I've even gone so far as to say that I don't personally even view him as a malicious troll.

All this, and time and again he has failed to listen to or respond to me, personally. When he has responded it's been so far away from anything I said or meant as to obliterate the idea that he even reads my posts.

So please, please, please somebody call me a bully.

Oh, and I'm not feeling guilty. Not even. The reason I wrote this is actually what I haven't said yet. Everything I wrote above was about me, but I can and would defend Khris, LimpingFish, and Darth (amongst others) by the exact same argument. We've all done nothing even misconstruable as "bullying", provided our posts are actually taken into the context of the situation.

So I don't buy into this claim of bullying. icey might feel differently, but by the self-same reasons listed above, the bias of his opinion on the bullying issue negates it as viable. He has proven himself to not be reliably consistent in understanding what is being said to or about him.

I apologize icey if I have made you feel bullied, but I assure you that if I have that it was a misunderstanding. I'm sure the same goes for others here.

So, yeah..I don't believe that anybody has been bullying icey..not in the slightest.

'bullying' might be the wrong word for this particular situation, but monkey, with respect, you do have one of the guy's quotes as your signature.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing the intention behind displaying said quote in said signature was for it to be picked up on and laughed at by anyone else who might find it funny.  You certainly didn't put it there for its profundity.

If I were a more sensitive soul and someone used one of my quotes in such a way, I'd be hard pressed to convince myself I wasn't being a tad picked on...

...just saying  :-\

Right, I forgot that saying anything that a self-proclaimed bullying victim has said is remotely humorous due to its total nonsensicality makes me Public Enemy No. 1. How silly of me.

There is a difference between a few pokes for fun which icey himself laughed about retrospectively and maliciously attacking and bullying someone..or so I have always believed.

I think feeding trolls is bad, so I stopped posting on any threads icey starts. Yes, ICEYGAMES/STUDIO3, to make it clear. I also think he is a troll, and I don't like him. I think people who tried to help him out and then made fun of him are not bullies, just because they tried to help him first. I think (6 eyes already! =) ) that he should altogether stop posting here, go away and grow up, get literate, delete all his games, forget about game making and consider a career as a crash dummy for a third-rate parachute company from a fourth wold country. Yes, I am a bully, and I don't care about his feelings. Yeah, I thought him funny at first, then I even felt sorry for him, but now I changed my mind! =O
I think if people stop posting on his threads, he will get the message sooner or, more likely, later, and maybe go away. If it doesn't help, and he still insists making threads about his crappy games or whatever else that I find nerve grating, he should then be removed from here. If for some reason he is allowed to exist here, then make him send all his threads to me for approval, before he is allowed to submit them. Heh, a nice solution all around, even if it makes me obligated to act the part of a reject machine.

Yes, I don't like him so much, I would actually sacrifice my time on doing that pointless task.

I hope I have been offensive enough.

this thread is six pages long as I type.


Is Darth the Ultimate Troll?

I am quite alarmed by some of the responses i've seen here=(

I'm not fully aware of all this trolling that's been going on and I wouldn't have assumed Darth was talking about Icey. In his own words, he wasn't, he was just talking about trolling in general. The definition of a troll to me is basically the wikipedia one (as it currently stands):

Quote
"someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community .. with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion"

That might have been an interesting discussion, and could include debate about where censorship/reprimands etc are necessary. However it seems to have been largely ignored.

On the subject of Icey, from what i've seen (and I don't claim to have read every single one of his threads), I don't think he has done anything to fall under the above definition.

Yes, he needs to improve his spelling and grammar, and I applaud those people who have taken the time to point this out to him in a constructive manner. I would expect nothing less for my own posts. I do not, however, feel that his poor use of the written word deserves some of the derogatory comments he has received. He is trying to improve as far as I can see and I have seen far worse out there in the wild, believe me.

Yes, he posts a lot of topics. Again, I cannot claim to have read every one of these, but most of them as far as I am concerned are technical questions and announcements. I don't have a problem with either and genuinely find some of them interesting and helpful. I have also seen him make serious contributions of his own to other people's technical threads.

Yes, he has a fascination with Final Fantasy and his games step on the toes of copyrighted works. But in my opinion these are harmless fan games and i'm sure he is/will soon become aware of the legal issues should he ever wish to publish his games commercially. I know he has been made aware of this in numerous topics. I would like to see him work on something else, something original, so I think entering the next MAGS would be a good idea.

His games do seem to be unfinished, rough around the edges, and buggy, from the few i've tried, so yes, certainly this is one area where he could improve. But I don't feel it's right to shout down his attempts and ask him to leave the boards completely. We're not that kind of community, are we?

I agree that he could hold back a bit more before releasing, to make sure his games are polished, but that's not to say he can't start Games in Progress threads and Critics Lounge threads. He does, and still seems to attract unwarranted criticism. Who are we to say these are not worthwhile? He's doing what he enjoys and that's the most I would ask for. I would like to see a nice clean database with links that work and proper demo/full games, but I wouldn't single out Icey's games in particular. Besides, isn't that the whole point of the AGSArchives/Nimbus project anyway? At the end of the day, if a game doesn't interest me - anyone's games - I won't play it. No harm, no foul.

I don't think any of the above qualifies him as a troll and I personally have no problem with him. I'm saddened that there are so many people keen to spout vitriol on this subject however. Call it what you will, but there does seem to be a recurring theme of people undermining Icey's threads with derogatory remarks which I feel is uncalled for. It's not completely one-sided, no, but the tit for tat is horrible. Can't we all just get a long?

Quote from: WHAM on Thu 21/04/2011 10:57:26
I can feel a disturbance in the Force. It is as if the sacred AGS forums were being divided into two...

I dislike this.

Perhaps it is time to end this discussion here, before any true damage is done.

Seconded. I would respectfully request that this topic be locked soon.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Thu 21/04/2011 21:07:32
There's a 'flag' in the member's table called isTroll (datatype: date/time).  When a person is determined to be a troll (admin consensus) that user is flagged as a troll and the date of the flagging is entered into the isTroll column.  From then on, all of the troll's posts/threads after the isTroll date will be invisible to all users except the troll themselves (and top level admins).  In this way no matter what the troll posts, nobody can see it.  So nobody replies to it.  Nobody feeds the troll and it slinks back to live under its bridge.

It works better than banning because banning is obvious to the troll and they can then just come back as a new member and start again.  If they feel the community just doesn't feed them, they aren't compelled to come back.

Works like a charm.

How has Icey avoided any repercussions? For every 'completed game' he has made there is a thread breaching the rules, and every in progress thread he has started but one has been locked for not following the rules.

I'm interested to know what the criteria for someone to be given an actual 'time-out' from the forums.

I don't think it would hurt to let icey take some time to grow up a little and learn to be not just more assertive when it comes to improving his coding ability, but to be able to communicate/behave maturely.

It's just a rant thread. We're all so well mannered and calm usually, it's about time we had a thread where we can say "uck you"! And "uck this"! And "bully that 12 year old kid!" etc

I think it's fair to say that using the forums for technical advice is one thing - posting in the forums designed for community chat is another. And it's why a lot of people DO NOT. These are the boards where people get to learn your personality, and it can clash with other peoples - look at this thread for example, lots of disagreement and I'm sure people are thinking "Well I never thought that of you before".

I think that's how it goes on a day by day basis for some of us. It's just becoming more and more ridiculous how one man can be so deluded yet be so intent on living this delusion out, and effectively bringing it step by step on a day by day basis to the rest of us. Asking him to step out of this delusion and, going mad at him when he completely ignores you, is pretty natural and allowed IMO. But not bullying.

The fact of the matter is some of us here are adults yes and some of us here are kids, and often is the case that adults want to get away from kids, and vice versa.

Quote
I'm interested to know what the criteria for someone to be given an actual 'time-out' from the forums.

Usually, flagrant misuse of the forum and database would hold a high mark for a time-out, but it's usually verbal abuse that gets the final kick.

If someone is dumb and just being a bit dozy about what they're posting/putting up etc, it usually takes a few messages and a subtle PM of guidance here or there. It should not take MONTHS on end with very little change. I won't deny though that some sectors of younger people are just going to be more and more retarded by the year ;)

Quote from: Zooty on Fri 22/04/2011 10:26:01this thread is six pages long as I type.
Is Darth the Ultimate Troll?

You make a post that has nothing to do with the original topic of this thread, or even the off-topic discussion that has corrupted it, and toss an insult at me.  And I'm trolling??  :P

Quote from: straydogstrut on Fri 22/04/2011 10:54:58That might have been an interesting discussion, and could include debate about where censorship/reprimands etc are necessary. However it seems to have been largely ignored.

It could have been very interesting! 

I am laughing (a bit) at how my original idea for the thread was pushed aside by the very thing that the topic was about!

QuoteI'm interested to know what the criteria for someone to be given an actual 'time-out' from the forums.

I think if there's a general sense/feeling that somebody is trolling (maybe an admin consensus since they are the ones that 'govern' the forums) the person in question gets flagged a troll.  I don't think it needs to be too complicated or involved because the beauty of my troll flag is that it's easily reversible. 

The 'time-out' period can be removed whenever it is desired.  I have it so that if/when a member that is flagged a troll creates a post/thread the post/thread is also flagged as 'isTroll' (it's easier to query this way but also it means after the member is taken out of troll status those other posts don't suddenly appear (because this could potentially lead to the trollish behavior being discovered and cause a new round of flaming/trolling)).

Based on what some have said in here though I'm now thinking I might need to adjust the settings for it a bit.  For instance if the forums had, like here, a tech-board to get specific answers for technical questions it might be necessary to leave certain boards open to trolls ... hmmm, an interesting thing to think on.

Wait, we're not seriously discussing that as a solution, are we?

I am (perhaps not surprisingly) strongly against it. On general principles, I dislike systems that allow people to exercise power surreptitiously, because there's no accountability. In this case it's the difference between making an official arrest on the one hand and having people "disappeared" on the other. Certain people seem to just stop posting, and no one (outside of a small elite) knows what's happened to them, or that someone has used their power to control the forum. Nor do any observers learn that "act like that, and there will be consequences."

Sure, it's way more convenient for moderators, who don't have to deal with any fallout or risk provoking a response from the person labeled a troll. But maybe it shouldn't be so convenient. If some particular moderator action is going to lead to a big fight on the forums, maybe that means the community isn't on board with it. (And I know the forums aren't a democracy, but I think most of the same principles of good governance apply. There's a reason why habeas corpus is one of the oldest and most fundamental civil rights.)

Finally, it's a fundamentally unfair system because it by necessity cannot give the person being punished a chance to defend themselves or appeal the decision, since they don't know what's happened. I know from my own experience that the result is Kafkaesque. When I moved, I tried to sell most of my furniture and things on Craigslist. Craigslist has a system like this, where if it determines that you're a spammer, it will silently hide your ads from all other users, while having them seem to show up as normal for the poster. I don't know what tripped its algorithm. Too many posts in a short period of time? Several posts with similar text? Including links to other sites (to show the official product description)? Nothing is documented, and there's no way to find out and no way to complain, since Craigslist will never tell you that they've done this to you. It took days before I realized what was going on, and I ended up losing hundreds of dollars from things I couldn't sell in time before I left. I am still furious with them.

Sure, it wouldn't go exactly like that under this proposed system, but the experience of suddenly having become the invisible man, and of being caught in a trap you can't get out of, is similar.

At this point, moderators tend to say "You're being paranoid. Trust us! We're good guys. Have we ever abused our power?" Maybe not. But once a system like this is in place, there's no way to tell. And besides, the point is not that the moderators are power-crazed fascists. It's that they're human. They make mistakes, even as a group. They have their own biases and bad days and misunderstandings. If you look at this thread and all the accusations of trollishness that have been flying (and the lack of agreement), it should be worrying to think that people could be kicked off for that and no one would know.

Uh, what is the problem here and why should this forum possibly need a troll flag?

If you ARE talking about icey, Darth: If people wouldn't post so much in icey's worst threads then there wouldn't be a problem at all, they'd quickly disappear in the abyss of the forums. Also, since you don't have to open such threads, there isn't any problem in the first place.

If you are talking about the people who do so: Should everyone posting in icey's threads be flagged as a troll?

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Thu 21/04/2011 21:07:32
A few years back I created some forum software (using coldfusion) and I addressed the issue of trolls as follows:

There's a 'flag' in the member's table called isTroll (datatype: date/time). ...

I think a system such as this would be a welcome addition and a great tool in keeping the forum's clean. As far as I have seen our admins are quite active and manage to do a good job overall, so using this kind of tool in a fair manner should not be too difficult. The internet has changed in the last few years, "trolling" and generally "being an ass" has become far more common and I think every site on the internet needs tools such as these.

I wasn't suggesting we implement that here (though I wouldn't mind if we did).  We (the mods) have talked about it before but not really discussed implementing it here as, continuing to beat the very dead horse here, there really isn't a "troll epidemic" on the AGS boards.

However, I do not see how a troll-flag is any more an "abuse of power" than the act of banning a person (which is very common on web forums (even though we don't do it much here)).

The moderators are there for a reason.  They moderate the boards to keep them functioning cleanly and to whatever guidelines they have put in place.  Even in a democracy there are still rules and laws that govern the general behaviors of its members, there are those that enforce these rules and laws, and there are consequences to those that get out of line (in whatever manner).

Sure the troll-flag functionality could be abused.  Just as the ban functionality can be abused (and I've seen blatant and ridiculous examples of this on other forums).

It's all dependent on the way the boards are run/moderated and there's really no "moral" difference between the two as far I'm concerned.  If the moderators are the type to abuse the ban function they'd probably abuse the troll-flag as well.  However if, like here, they do not abuse the ban they wouldn't abuse the troll-flag either.  Case by case example.

Personally I think the troll-flag is less offensive than an outright banning.  If you ban somebody it is blatantly saying "you are not welcome here" where-as the troll-flag simply curbs their behavior for a bit.  Also, a banning has (in my experience) just caused more strife in the long-run because the banned person almost always feels the need to sign-up again and have a quick burst (until they're banned again) of trolling and abuse.  And often times if they're banned again they come back, again, to cause even more strife.  It can go on and on.  The troll-flag simply causes them to think that nobody is taking their bait, and they fade away as they aren't getting the attention they need.

Sincerely, that really sucks what happened to you at Craig's List.

I have to say though that I don't really see the connection between that and a troll-flag on a forums (other than the obvious 'hiding content' thing).  Their algorithm definitely screwed you over but I'd be willing to bet it vastly improves the over-all functionality of their site.  Imagine if, trying to use Craig's List, it was flooded with obvious spam and junk and trying to find something of value was near impossible... they'd have closed up a long time ago because nobody would use it anymore.  eBay has a similar algorithm in place and (years ago when I used to sell stuff on eBay) I always logged out and checked my listing(s) as a guest to ensure they were showing as I wanted them to.

I'm not trying to belittle your experience with them (I'd be pissed too) but I think it might be influencing your views on the troll-flag in a negative way because, as I pointed out above, the ban functionality is little different than a troll-flag (IMHO).

See, I knew this topic could have a proper discussion, well done mate;-)

I have to say i'm with Snarky on this. I know the forums aren't a democracy and i'm all for having moderators to police the boards, but I don't like the idea of posts silently disappearing in the middle of the night. Think of their families :'(

Part of the problem here is we all seem to have a different idea of what constitutes a troll. Let's not go into that again, but in my mind, as i've said, it's someone spamming the boards with offensive remarks or deliberately trying to be a nuisance. I don't think we have that problem here though.

I do agree that banning users is too extreme and ultimately futile. It also sends the wrong message if the person is a genuine victim of such reprisals, given that the timeout system is invisible to normal users. I would much prefer something a long the lines of the Vote Up/Down system the tech forums like UnityAnswers have. That way the forums can be governed by everyone (well, that particular part at least, you still need mods for housekeeping), with no-one really being able to censor something just because they don't like it. But given that this is a discussion forum rather than a Q&A it probably wouldn't really work, but really we already have that function: just don't reply to the topic as Matti said and it will sink to the bottom of the pile.

Another alternative would be to have the troll flag (call it something else, please), but rather than hiding their posts, just limit the number of posts they can make in, for example, a week. That way, they're not being censored and have the opportunity to show that they are willing to behave better in future. If you want to go a step further, make the troll flag visible to all users as a form of further punishment.

But, like I said, I don't think we really have a problem here. Threads that get really out of hand can always be locked anyway.

Banning was never seriously suggested as a solution for any alleged troll (that I am aware of). The moderators here have always been far more sensible than regular internet rule dictates, which is why we are usually such an open and easy-going community. Creating voting systems and flags could lead to more divisive behavior, as such systems could be used to settle old scores ("Man, I hate this guy! I'm voting his ass down!"). We are usually responsible enough to negate the need for a blanket form of policing anyway, and it hasn't hurt us thus far.

The fact that I liked Darth's suggestion of basically implementing an "/ignore" system, is that such a system has worked on IRC (for me anyway) and seems like a diplomatic way to deal with these situations.

Regardless, any person who finds themselves (unwittingly or otherwise) on the receiving end of some negative feeling will always get the same advise from me: take a time out, consider the situation, come back and try again. Don't try to post yourself out of the hole you've found yourself in.

For the sake of argument, am I calling for Icey to be banned? No. Do I think he's rubbed a number of people the wrong way? Yes.

Over the course of this thread, I've come to agree with the definition of a troll as somebody who craves attention, regardless of cost. By constantly ignoring peoples reactions to his continued posting, I think Icey has met that criteria.

I also find the moderation policy here to be much better than is usually expected of internet fora.

I mean you guys even had a thread about *religion* and no one got banned.

*reglion*

"reglion" you say? Is that like a lion who lives in your registry to ward off malicious registry predators (viruses, ignorant n00bs, etc.)? It sounds..AWESOME. I think I'll call mine Aslan. :)

[/troll]

:=

My original code implemented a "block" feature where-by you could select the member to block and then select the level of block; PMs, Posts, or ALL.

The problem with this type of block feature is that if User A can't see the troll's posts, but is still active in the thread the Troll is trolling in, the troll might be making comments on User A that he can't see.  But other people can.  And if User B (who User A doesn't have blocked) quotes the troll on a post that might (or might not) say something bad about User A ... well it can REALLY escalate then because now User A really strongly feels the need to defend himself against it (in a perfect world User A would simply laugh it off and say, "yup, that's why I have him blocked" but it's not a perfect world and User A would respond, thus the trolling continues)

With the troll-flag that isn't possible because nobody ('cept admins) would see the posts.

Another problem with that method is that not everybody would block the troll and those that don't have it blocked would still feed it.  If there's even one person feeding a troll it'll stick around and continue trolling.  (This is, of course, based on my version of what constitutes a troll/trolling)

Now the important thing about the troll-flag (that might have been overlooked) is it's date specific.  Only posts AFTER the date the flag is set will not be visible.  Posts that existed prior to the flag-date don't disappear (as this would tip the troll off!).

You did kind of give me an idea though ... a "block" feature could be put in place and if more than a certain percentage of the active users have a person blocked it would auto-trigger the troll-flag.  Hmmm ... that is an intriguing idea and I'm going to think on it a bit (I'm sure there are set-backs to it that I haven't thought of but it sort of makes it a 'consensus' thing like the vote up/down but isn't visible to the users which could lead to disharmony as LimpingFish mentioned).

I do like the idea of limiting their posting but I'm not sure how effective it'd be in the long-run.  I mean, in theory, if you stop a troll from being able to post more than 2 times an hour it would cut down on them trolling a specific thread because the part they wanted to troll might be "left behind" by the time they can finally post again ... but then again it might lead to them doing it anyway thus digging up a part of the discussion/debate that has been put to rest already.

In the end the best thing (and only thing) to do to make a troll go away is to ignore it.  But most people are, seemingly, incapable of doing that.  It's almost as bad of a compulsion as trolling in the first place!  With the troll-flag they are granted the power of serenity to not take the bait and feed the troll :)

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 22/04/2011 19:37:10
"reglion" you say? Is that like a lion who lives in your registry to ward off malicious registry predators (viruses, ignorant n00bs, etc.)? It sounds..AWESOME. I think I'll call mine Aslan. :)

[/troll]

:=

I wanted to say something similar, but then, since I'm not a native speaker, I wanted to make sure it's not actually a pun with some word or meme I don't know, and found this (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=reglion). Now I'm not interested anymore in Calin's reglions :-X



Darth, I think I see another issue with your troll-flag-system that was not mentioned yet:
What if the troll has/makes a second account (I'm sure a good number of the truly malicious trolls even uses second accounts to reply to their own posts), he'll be soon aware of what's going on and start the whole make-new-accounts-and-start-massive-trolling/spamming-and-complaining-about-the-censorship thing that often comes with banning, so this advantage over banning may actually not be 100% effective. Have you considered this, or maybe observed that it's not a problem?

Quote from: TomatosInTheHead on Fri 22/04/2011 20:34:44
Darth, I think I see another issue with your troll-flag-system that was not mentioned yet:
What if the troll has/makes a second account (I'm sure a good number of the truly malicious trolls even uses second accounts to reply to their own posts), he'll be soon aware of what's going on and start the whole make-new-accounts-and-start-massive-trolling/spamming-and-complaining-about-the-censorship thing that often comes with banning, so this advantage over banning may actually not be 100% effective. Have you considered this, or maybe observed that it's not a problem?

Well the alternative is a ban, in which case they will make a new account straight away (if they are compelled to).

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 22/04/2011 19:51:29
In the end the best thing (and only thing) to do to make a troll go away is to ignore it. But most people are, seemingly, incapable of doing that. It's almost as bad of a compulsion as trolling in the first place!  With the troll-flag they are granted the power of serenity to not take the bait and feed the troll :)

This is a sad truth. 80% of the active community could be restraining themselves, and there would still be enough posters to pander to the troll's hunger for attention.

This is why I support the idea of the troll flag.

Quote from: Calin Leafshade on Fri 22/04/2011 18:43:03
I also find the moderation policy here to be much better than is usually expected of internet fora.

I mean you guys even had a thread about *religion* and no one got banned.

*reglion*

LOL. The best part is that there have been like 4-5 or so topics with over 200 answers. Usually after those the community changes eras. Example most newbies that frequent the forums came on August 2009, like you and icey (no comparison made).

And guess when was the last BIG religion topic.

I think everyone should be banned, cause that's what makes a good forum.

I think that any thread that gets over, say, 128 replies was probably intended to be a troll, and the #129th reply is probably an even bigger troll....

I think we should let this thread die...

** DARTH TURNS THE KEY **