So I'm sure you've heard the news by now. What are your thoughts? Was justice served? Did America have the right to storm into another country and kill a man? Is it a big conspiracy? Something to do with the Illuminati (hahaha)?
Discuss!
I knew it was only a matter of time until this thread was started. I even briefly considered doing it last night.
To me, justice can never be served for the thousands that died at bin Laden's hands. The most excruciating death could not "make up" for what he'd done. I've heard people asking if we had the right to go into another country and kill him. For the safety of thousands, it was necessary. He started the war on terror. We chose to fight it.
I do believe that these events are real, but I would like to see the photographs that were taken. There is no reason that they should not be displayed to the public.
I think it was about time! All fundamentalists and terrorists deserve what's coming to 'em!
I do think it was necessary for justice to be served and he was a dangerous man who needed capturing or eliminating.
Having said that however, it always makes me a little sad when people celebrate the death of another person regardless of who it is and the fact that some otherwise upstanding people quite literally wanted him hung, drawn and quartered worries me a little.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI
But yeah, what Calin said.
Booooring..
If it would make the politicians here shut up about terrorism and undo recent awkwardly justified laws, then I'd be happy... but why should it?
Not 100% convinced. Waiting on some photos of his shot up face :=
Apparently they dumped his body in the sea hours after killing him. Did they have any neutral witnesses to identify his body? All I've seen is a video of a bed, some blood, and a roll of cellotape. Doesn't really prove to me they got Bin Laden :P
I'd love to be reassured they got him. But so far things to me are "sketchy".
Either way, about bloody time. I remember being in AGS irc whilst watching the 9/11 footage.
Every other of their 52 card game people have had a dead headshot. I'm not morbid, I just think it acts as fairly decent proof these people are 'dead' ! Maybe it's too early for this kind of evidence to be public.
This is interesting, and I'm sure I'll get wrapped up in some conspiracy debate about it somewhere - but I'm actually more interested in the recent discovery they found one of the black boxes from flight 447, plus the final days of the space shuttle service. Bin Laden? Who? Meh. Woulda been cool if they'd caught him back in the mid 2000's.
I'd would love to say that I think it's a conspiracy. I'd be more inclined to suggest he's actually been dead for years but they've strategically chosen now to announce it to the world. However, I'm not going to say that because I have absolutely no basis for it and don't want to turn this into another moon-landing thread :=
I do think the man should be dead (whatever the circumstances), and I frankly don't blame the Americans for singing and dancing about it, however vulgar it may seem to those of us who like to ride the moral highground. 9/11 was a day, so painful for the Americans, I can't even begin to imagine. If this news brings relief and closure to just a few of those people, then that can only be a good thing.
I made this point to a woman on Twitter who got on my tits with her irate moralizing. She quite rightly pointed out that this is not closure, and that the terror won't stop. But so what? To the Americans Bin Laden is not just a 'person', he is an icon of fear and evil. It doesn't necesarily have to be the man's death they are celebarating, that's just by-the-by. They're really celebrating the symbolism of his death. I really don't see the point of getting worked up about it.
I think if he isn't dead he'll probably announce that pretty soon.
But that makes me wonder about the US planning this so he'd do that so they could find him. That'd be masterful.
I'm glad he's dead. Talk about someone who really had it coming! :D
And Bulbapuck, thanks for the video link. Have you seen the Taiwanese CGI re-enactment of the operation? It is awesome! (It's also on the front page of my website -- shameless plug!)
Henry Cooper died the same day... obviously Osama was using him as a secret identity!
While it might of have been preferable to take him alive it is still better that he be dead than loose to cause more terror.
Also taking him alive would probably have been much more difficult and place more lives in danger. But if we were to have caught him there would be the question of trial and the cost, Just look at the controversy around the Khalid Sheik Mohammed trial. As for conspiracy, it would be nice if we got to see full autopsy results for Bin Laden. Did they really dump the body in the ocean? Weren't they going to cremate him? That does sound a bit suspicious. At least it should be interesting to see how everybody reacts to the news of his death, I am especially looking forward to "The Daily Show" and "The Colbert Report" this week!
The question now becomes what are we going to do in Afghanistan.
I don't think it'll make much change in anything;
Man like him has been probably readied for his sudden death or capture for past 30 years, back from the days he fought against russians in Afghanistan so his death wouldn't change much in organization and there's probably a successor available. After being martyred, there shouldn't be lack of candidates, neither.
Let's hope retaliation (which is pretty much guaranteed I think) won't succeed.
If he had gotten to set up a number of large buildings downtown NY with demolition charges and managed to fly two planes in to trigger those I'm sure he's got something rigged for this.
Does this mean we can stop all this patriot act stuff now?
Quote from: Technocrat on Tue 03/05/2011 13:07:06
Does this mean we can stop all this patriot act stuff now?
Lol, of course not, you silly man. In fact it's evolving from iPhones which just track your movement to the ones that also record all your calls and messages and give you electric shocks if words such as "terrorism" are used.
I don't know if Osama is dead or not, but damn it can they make a suspicious situation, wtf is wrong burrying the guy, more video and photos...seriously, like the whole US Army just lives for doing suspicious and strange moves. I know it's sounds weird, but I still think 9/11, at least, was a strange development of events.
Also on the note on death, I would gather this man is a bad person, but still celebration of somebody dying is just wrong (and I don't mean like celebrating their life after they died, like Dias des muertos etc. I'm more than fine with that, but somebody actually being killed). Not to mention that. as others said, this probably doesn't change much except maybe he'll be used as a martyr figure.
Celebrating such stuff instead of maybe finding some closure or peace about the ones that lost their lives just shows how values and humanism have been shriveled to a sad state in much of modern society.
we're actually happy for a person being dead because that person did the 9/11. Next thing is that we're gonna believe saddam husein had weapons of mass destruction. No one with a brain half a size of a monkey's butt should believe that the towers fell from the planes and that this was all Bin Laden's stuff. Then again people believed that the earth was the centre of the solar system.
Quote from: Dualnames on Tue 03/05/2011 13:41:16
...No one with a brain half a size of a monkey's butt should believe that the towers fell from the planes...
...not sure if serious...
They buried him at sea because
QuoteMSNBC reported, "There also was speculation about worry that a grave site could have become a rallying point for militants.
That's pretty reasonable in my book. They did confirm it was him using DNA from his sister. I don't think the US/Obama would publicly declare him dead if they weren't 100% sure they actually got him.
To my mind the celebrations are a bit out of place. Al-Qaeda isn't like a company with Osama as CEO, it's more like a huge franchise with hundreds of independent cells. Some say there isn't even a network, it's just lots of semi-organized small groups.
His death isn't going to change much, apprehending him and putting him on trial would have been much more satisfactory and grabbing/killing him a decade earlier would have warranted much more celebration.
Regarding the various conspiracy theory comments here: anything can be included into a conspiracy theory. No matter how many evidence there is that says otherwise, a conspiracy theory can always be expanded to include it as further proof. That's what makes it utterly pointless to argue with believers of conspiracy theories.
Dualnames:
Quote from: flat-earther
No one with a brain half a size of a monkey's butt should believe that the earth is round and the south pole isn't an ice wall protected by government agents who shoot anybody down who tries to cross it.
(Note: the above quote is not to be understood as an attempt to argue with a conspiracy believer because doing that is utterly pointless.)
Quote from: Phemar on Mon 02/05/2011 21:55:00
Was justice served?
No.Justice was infringed in so many ways that it's hard to start a list.
In a nusthell: A man was killed without proper judgment, and outside of the law. (Yeah, the UN is still called "the law"). He was probably tortured first.
And they confiscated the body, too.
The list is endless.
Quote from: Phemar on Mon 02/05/2011 21:55:00
Did America have the right to storm into another country and kill a man?
No.When they joined in creating the UN, the US agreed to respect some laws. Therefore, here they infringed their
own law.
It's all a big joke from the moment they invaded Irak to punish a Saudi millionaire who had nothing to do with Irak.
I'm amazed the question is even asked.
From the real world, with love ♥.
Yes, let us all rejoice that this ex-CIA operative has been killed for the 9th time (I'm not kidding, look up all the times they said they killed him), even though insiders like Madeline Albright and Dr. Steven Pieczenik (Kissinger's right testicle and former deputy assistant secretary of state) said he was literally on ice and being held for an 'opportune moment'. Pieczenik actually knew Osama personally (it's documented) and said he was suffering acute kidney failure in 2002 and was on dialysis. Pieczenik even said on the record that Osama was dead in 2002.
Add to that the fact that the photos circulating on May Day were doctored and from years ago (this is admitted) and the quick and dirty burial at sea without providing any real evidence and, in the very least, you should be left questioning some of this and doing some research. Osama's been a spectre for years, and now they have other bogeymen to haunt us like Anwar Al-Awlaki.
He's your next bogeyman and 'they' have promised reprisals so it's time to be very afraid and give up more of your rights so you can be safe!
I'm getting sick of all the media coverage it's getting. Oh guess what there's yet another media storm! I apologise to all Americans out there if you had to endure all that Royal Wedding malarkey. (For the record I am a royalist :))
I was getting ready to die from swine flu. I was preparing for my town to be drowned by rising tides. I was told to buy drought resistant plants for my garden. Global warming is a joke (think they call it climate change instead now). "Let's follow everybody else and get grants to do some research! Don't worry, we'll fudge the results!"
The point is we only
truly know what the media tells us. (Free media basically means news agencies can force whatever agenda they want (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2H170pf3a8)). Osama's death is painfully overstated. If this top secret mission, real or not, was not reported, would it affect us? Nope. Will it affect us anyway? Nope.*
Quote from: Stupot on Tue 03/05/2011 00:00:41
To the Americans Bin Laden is not just a 'person', he is an icon of fear and evil. It doesn't necesarily have to be the man's death they are celebarating, that's just by-the-by. They're really celebrating the symbolism of his death.
Absolutely. I couldn't believe people going into a frenzied trance over his death. What is that in aid of anyway? I bet some of them didn't even know who he was.
* Touch wood.
I'm afraid Prog is right when saying:
Quote from: ProgZmax on Tue 03/05/2011 16:26:40He's your next bogeyman and 'they' have promised reprisals so it's time to be very afraid and give up more of your rights so you can be safe!
Yeah, it's all bullshit. Seems US Gov is perhaps trying to push the evolution of terrorism (and rights-destroying counter terrorism). It seems likely to me this "news" was a stunt, also that he may have been dead for years as suggested by ProgZ. It's kind of weird to see the way the press have lapped the story up when there's just so much wrong with it. It's got hoaxy mchoax hoax written all over it := Not saying he isn't dead, just saying I don't believe for one moment it happened in the timeline being reported in the media (from the US Government). Let alone the asshole "gung ho" nature of the operation.
Suspicious part is why he wasn't captured alive and why do it with choppers, SEALS and guns.
It's not like we haven't figured out how to use gas or something. Pick a right wind, evacuate building next door and let sucker have it.
Or simply drop a bomb/rocket where needed. If they needed body to show to the rest of the world, where is it?
Quote from: InCreator on Thu 05/05/2011 06:56:58
If they needed body to show to the rest of the world, where is it?
That they dumped the body in the ocean right away it what seems the most sketchy to me. Why did it have to happen so quickly? And why not just burn his body? That would have totally got rid of his body so no one could dive it up or something silly like that. Also that the US are changing facts all the time doesn't help either.
If I'm not mistaken, the topic started on questions of legitimacy on this whole manhunt thing, and now it's slided to its insignificant part, like "is he REALLY dead?".
Quote from: Ouxxey_games on Thu 05/05/2011 08:54:04
If I'm not mistaken, the topic started on questions of legitimacy on this whole manhunt thing, and now it's slided to its insignificant part, like "is he REALLY dead?".
True, but it didn't happen - so there is no legitimacy to question ;) All the world's a stage!
They will eventually release a video of his death and funeral, but they haven't finished filming it at their studios in Area 51 yet.
I also heard that they faked the moon landings and that obama is a kenyan, muslim spy from outer space.
Sometimes, you know, the government is actually telling the truth.
Quote from: Ouxxey_games on Thu 05/05/2011 08:54:04
If I'm not mistaken, the topic started on questions of legitimacy on this whole manhunt thing, and now it's slided to its insignificant part, like "is he REALLY dead?".
For what it's worth, two men in a small city near where I live filed suit against America for murder.
Yeah, really. Predictably, they were laughed out of court as it was pointed out that the local court of a random European city has no jurisdiction over another country ::)
Regardless, Saddam was taken to court, I think Osama should have been too. The end result would have been the same (i.e. death penalty) but I prefer a clear and open judicial system to a shot in the desert.
Now our greatest enemy is Republicans.
They failed to protect the environment, They tortured people in Cuba.
They gouged us for gas. Allowed credit card companies to gouge us.
Quote from: Radiant on Thu 05/05/2011 21:25:09
Saddam was taken to court, I think Osama should have been too. The end result would have been the same (i.e. death penalty) but I prefer a clear and open judicial system to a shot in the desert.
+1. And even in the case of Hussein, he was judged by a parody of court (USA sort-of military court) instead of the ICC.
Quote from: Mods on Thu 05/05/2011 14:45:57
Quote from: Ouxxey_games on Thu 05/05/2011 08:54:04
If I'm not mistaken, the topic started on questions of legitimacy on this whole manhunt thing, and now it's slided to its insignificant part, like "is he REALLY dead?".
True, but it didn't happen - so there is no legitimacy to question ;)
I don't know if it was meant to be a joke, but if it was serious, then I think it's quite the opposite -- If we're not sure if he's been caught (even though for me it's pretty sure), then maybe it's not too late to stop and think of the consequences of this terrible illegal manhunt.
Who? Never heard of.
After all the celebrating, the US people have shown, that it's not only the government the Al Qaida are planning to take revenge on, I should think they feel it's all justified now. Or at least that's what they said on the news just now.
Unless he's planning a Coke Classic style return I'd say this is pretty conclusive (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13313201) (BBC News).
This whole thing stinks and leave so many questions...
imagine Osama was still alive. Why would a proud seals team kill him instead of capture him and drag him to Guantanamo and ask (and waterboard him) about 9-11 and other terrorist acts? Why not show the world you finally got him?
Okay, so it was 1 o'clock in the morning, he was annoyed by the helicopters flying around his house in the middle of the night and fought in his pyjama and had to be killed (don't taze him!) and noone from the special forces team with hightech equipment has a helmet camera with better quality than a y2k cellphone? all the world gets to see is a lousy picture of some people in the white house staring at an edge of the room where they might be watching Wag the Dog or something.
So what is it that this announcement from the white house wants to tell us:
We are mighty, we get everyone, we are the good christians that fight the evil muslims, but we respect your conventions as contradicting this might be.
what it tells me:
we are stratetic liars and kill random people (not sure if Osama) unjustified and disregard international law. We have forgotten about our 10 commandments we want to defend but fear your (our selfplotted?) revenge acts even though we already monitor everything.
what I think:
Osama is definately dead. If he was still alive he would use this to make a new video to embarress the US. This whole thing is just another message feeding the plot for the war and taking away civil rights. What a funny thing a gouvernment can and does control the history books used in future classes.
I just have to add my two cents here...Osama Bin Laden, who WAS the most wanted man on the planet, who has killed thousands of civilians like you and me because we live in America and not to mention that he declared war on America and freedom.
How is this not justified, Even if he was unarmed and wanted to surrender....too bad, too late....you dont sneak on a bus and pay to get off. Pakistan had this man living next to a military base for ten years and had no clue about it....All the way from here in America we found him....amazing...no problem, we will take care of it, and we did.
The world has been under attack from extremists for a very long time, like Bush said....you are either with us or against us. Here in America we have too many laws, so many that we can barely go to the store without getting sued by someone.
America is no angel, but someone has to right the ship and hold the torch.
I do agree that running around celebrating the death of a man is not right, but if anyone ever had it coming to him, it was Osama bin laden.
I'm as ridiculously left-wing as the average AGSer, and I would much rather have seen villains like Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein face a real trial without the threat of a death penalty.
That said, I have very little sympathy for them. Death by hanging is 'natural causes' for tyrants, as is being shot in the early morning for terrorists. If it's said, it's sad because it has done nothing to break a cycle of violence.
Quote from: NickyNyce on Sat 07/05/2011 16:39:43
How is this not justified, Even if he was unarmed and wanted to surrender....too bad, too late....you dont sneak on a bus and pay to get off.
Nope, sorry. That's not how western justice works. I don't care how much of a cunt someone is, you dont get to shoot them if they are unarmed and willing to surrender (I dont know if Bin Laden *did* want to surrender but i'm just addressing Nicky's point)
Quote
The world has been under attack from extremists for a very long time, like Bush said....you are either with us or against us.
Really? Those are the choices? One of the reasons that that is such a widely distributed quote of bush is that *it's stupid*. I'm not defending terrorists for one second but to say that we either support an imperialistic America or we support extremist islam is insulting and absurd.
Quote
America is no angel, but someone has to right the ship and hold the torch.
And I suppose that would be Team America? Let's ignore the many Europeans that have died because it's all about America.
Quote from: NickyNyce on Sat 07/05/2011 16:39:43
like Bush said....you are either with us or against us.
Huh. If you're not an apple, you're a banana.
Quote from: Mr Flibble on Sat 07/05/2011 17:57:45
Huh. If you're not an apple, you're a banana.
Only a Sith thinks in absolutes!
I would just like to say...yes America has its many problems...we are no angels...we cause lots of people to dislike us....I do put the shoe on ther other foot...America is not the only good country in the world, by no means is that what i meant. That came out totally wrong.
I am no politician, just a guy who knew some people that lost their lives that day. Sorry to sound rude, just have stirring feelings again by this weeks past events.
the bush quote only meant that if your aiding and harboring terrorists then you just may be one yourself.I am not saying that Pakistan did this, this is just the part that i thought Bush meant when he said it, Yes.....dumb quote... i totally understand what your saying Calin. As for breaking into a compound for the most wanted man in the world, who probably has the whole place ready to blow at a buttons push....I'm not so sure walking in and asking him if he want's to surrender is the best approach....I would imagine that would be extremely difficult.
sorry to all who took this the wrong way
When they shot Bin Laden they said they thought he was reaching for a gun and it looks like there were indeed guns in the room where he was shot. So my question is what would the outcry be if instead of killing Bin Laden, they instead shot him in the arm or hand (and possibly blowing it off)?
Quote from: Calin Leafshade on Sat 07/05/2011 16:54:13
And I suppose that would be Team America? Let's ignore the many Europeans that have died because it's all about America.
But who else? Would you like China to police the world? Europe? Russian Federation? No thanks, been there already.
China is a bunch of crazy Communists. Russia, no explanation needed. And Europe - either has no balls or when does, causes horror. British Empire (see India, Northern Africa)? Belgium in Africa (See Rwanda, Congo)?
Also, Team America still CAN take casualties. Other European countries, not so much. It's well reflected in your quote.
With every armed conflict there's a number of caskets to be brought home and most of Western world really cannot accept this. But how the hell do you fight a war if you don't even realize the concept of war? (people shoot at each other and die) It's not medieval times where good swordsman can beat barbarian wielding a club. 7.62mm bullets kill every time, no matter if they're shot by child with AK, desert dweller or well-trained solider.
Why did Vietnam war fail? Caskets. People didn't realize that soldiers will die and went apeshit when it happened. So it all fell apart. Iraq got same bad rap... didn't everyone hate Bush? That's why American government keeps on making up HUUUGE reasons they have to fight this and that and why devil images are created. Osama was one of those. Helps public to digest those casualties. Maybe world police is the same PR? It's not like US really does give two shits about democracy and freedom in some remote desert village... it's all about protecting own interests.
Also I think Western world wielding guns is increasingly needed image in the future. Due our comfortable life and increasing life expectancy, the will to fight decreases every day. Reminds me of sci-fi stories where people in the future are so peaceful that a man with a stick can dominate whole nation. That's the road we've taken, I think... but that's no way to be most aggressive and dangerous species of our galaxy!
In regards to your post, all I can say is: