PEGI/ESRB and Amateur game ratings

Alynn · Wed 09/08/2006 07:26:44

Believe it or not, this has nothing to do with if I agree or disagree with them, and in many cases, I do agree with the intent of these rating systems.

But there is a problem with them.

A few weeks ago, I emailed PEGI and the ESRB on how one goes about getting a rating for an amateur game.

PEGI returned an email saying it's a service for professional developers only, it costs money, and they don't deal with amateur games.

ESRB hasn't returned my emails, and it's been over a month. I assume that it is probably the same.

So I thought to myself, why hasn't anyone developed any sort of system like this for the internet. There isn't an ethical amateur gamemaking committee anywhere. So I thought, why don't I just make my own and see if it catches on.

It's still in very early stages, and once I get all my thoughts and ideas down on paper I'll post them to my website, but the basic idea is this.

1) COMPLETELY voluntary, you only put ratings on your games if you choose to (which is kind of a given seeing that I'm not an authority).

2) If you do decide to use the rating system on your game, it does not have to be in the game (the exe or the jar or what have you). However due to the nature of games being hosted on different websites, it is highly encouraged to put the ratings on the splash screen, loading screen, title screen, or similar.

3) The rating must be clearly posted by the download link or on the page the flash/java file is embedded in.

Just ideas so far, but I like the idea of an Ethical Amateur Gaming group, and those that take the responsibility to inform internet users what content their game may have to anyone that may download it.

As far as icons, I've only worked on one as a rough draft, simple grayscale png at 48X64 pixels.
1X:

2X:

So I guess if I were to fully develop a system like this, would any of you use it? If anything I will probably use it for my own games, but just as a slice of the internet, I'd like to see what others thought.

Thanks...

R4L · Wed 09/08/2006 07:45:02

Well for adults, I think they can choose to themselves whether they can view those type of sites. As for children, AOL offers some security, and IE has its own security tab in Internet Options that can stop you from viewing these sites. But yes, I think the internet should have some of this "security" only because of work places, schools, and libraries. Frequently, at my school, fellow classmates have been looking up pr0n, which doesn't bother me in any way, but its the fact that these guys are doing this in a library, where little kids are around.

deadsuperhero · Wed 09/08/2006 08:04:03

I like this idea. And we can make up our own letters.
Rated W for weird stuff that will scare the crap out of children

Alynn · Wed 09/08/2006 08:05:53

It isn't to rate the site, it's for those that choose to do so, to inform anyone that may download or play their game the content within...

I start with 3 categories Textual, Cartoonish, and Realistic which tells them the graphical type of the game. You then add the subcategories such as Violence, Blood and Gore, Sex, Language, whatever. So anyone thinking of downloading or playing your game will know when they see R:VBL that this game will have realistic violence blood and language.

I'm not even going to attach an age to any of these ratings. If anything they are for informational puposes only, because I know that people will download what they want, since there isn't a real way to regulate it.

Oh and I actually had the idea for S for scary, younger children may be frightened by content.

So in the end, it really is just an informational rating system.

Ishmael · Wed 09/08/2006 10:40:42

Well, we do have

,

and

already.

And besides, no offense, this sounds just so damn american again...

SSH · Wed 09/08/2006 10:51:43

I wish they rated movie so that you coudl tell if there was any peril in them at all. I mean, my daughter gets upset at such horror classics as Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Madagascar, The Incredibles

Renal Shutdown · Wed 09/08/2006 12:10:16

Stop using your daughter as a reason you're hiding behind the couch.

Alynn · Wed 09/08/2006 12:13:15

Quote from: Ishmael on Wed 09/08/2006 10:40:42
Well, we do have , and already.

And besides, no offense, this sounds just so damn american again...

Yes but those are just for this site. What I am suggesting is an association of game makers that choose to place these on the game they produce. They do not even have to use the icons that I plan on making, they can make their own, as long as they are readable and easy to understand.

This will be used (if the producer chooses) throughout the internet as a means for individuals to have an idea of content before downloading and playing.

This system does NOT mandate appropriate playing age, it is only informational, the EAGMA (Ethical Amateur Game Makers Association) can not judge on what appropriate gaming age is, only as to the content of the product.

As I type I have word open and I'm typing up a draft of my vision in this regard. I'm not trying to make a stright jacket, I'm only thinking of a system that is comparable to the PEGI or ESRB that can be used for amateur game makers without them having to pay or just be completely ignored by those two orginizations.

Also, the PEGI is not an american orginization, it's actually European. While you may thing "this sounds so American" it is in fact just an idea for those that choose to accurately represent their games content to those that may wish to use that game.

As SSH said, his daughter gets upset at Cinderella, my daughter loves watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but any movie that has tons of gore and violence gives her nightmares for weeks. Every person is different which is why my idea is that this system does not mandate what is appropriate for those that use it, it only displays what they will find in the game once they play it.

Once I feel I'm at a good place with the document for my vision I will post it at a few amateur game making communities to hopefully get some constructive feedback.

Thanks for everyone's input thus far.

Dan_N · Wed 09/08/2006 13:01:14

Yes, I think Alynn is on to something here.

I would like to help so here are my ideeas:
Let's set up a point-system, the more points a game has, the more unsuitable it may be for children, old people with bad blatters and/or squeamish people.
Also, let's divide the "bad" categories into subcategories, each having a certain number of points:
- Violence:
* Suggestions of killing or discussing about it -> 1 point
* Wielding of weapons without specifically killing anyone -> 1 point
* Specifically displaying killing of one person -> 2 points
* Displaying of genocide or mass murdering -> 4 points
- Blood and Gore:
* Displaying of false blood (ketchup) -> 1 point
* Organs shown intact with no blood sorrounding them -> 2 points
* Specifically displaying blood or corpses -> 3 points
* Bloody organs -> 4 points
* Spraying of blood and gore while killing -> 6 points
- Sex & Nudity
* Suggestive dialog -> 1 point
* Non-sexual nudity -> 3 points
* Sex scenes while covering sex organs -> 5 points
* Explicit sex scenes clearly displaying sex organs and the act itself -> 8 points
- Language
* Mild cursing (dang, dog-on-it, shoot, etc.) -> 1 point
* Mild cursing of extreme expressions (crap, damn, bitch etc.) -> 2 points
* Extreme cursing (f*ck, sh*t, god damn, etc.) -> 4 points

Also, adding the categories' points separately to judge whether each category is Mild, Average, or Excessive like this:
- Violence: 1-2 points is Mild, 3-6 is Average, over 6 is Excessive.
- Blood and Gore: 1-3 points is Mild, 4-6 is Average, over 6 is Excessive.
- Sex and Nudity: 1 is Mild, 2-4 is Average, over 4 is Excessive.
- Language: 1 is Mild, 2 is Average, over 2 is Excessive.

Of course, when rating you must also take into account the frequency. And, about age, you should make some categories of age, if not displaying specifically what age is the game recommended for, something like Children, Teen, or Mature.
Also, indeed whether the game is cartoony or not should be indicated.

CaptainBinky · Wed 09/08/2006 13:04:28

How come showing a willy is worth more points than horrific mentally-scarring mass genocide with extreme blood and guts and dismemberment etc?

Haddas · Wed 09/08/2006 13:07:00

Cause it will ROT YOUR BRAIN.

Radiant · Wed 09/08/2006 13:09:55

Quote from: CaptainBinky on Wed 09/08/2006 13:04:28
How come showing a willy is worth more points than horrific mentally-scarring mass genocide with extreme blood and guts and dismemberment etc?

Because nine out of ten psychologists agree that while it's perfectly fine to teach kids how to dismember or brutally shoot one another, it will scar them for life if you teach them how to procreate.

GarageGothic · Wed 09/08/2006 13:24:46

I think this is a really good idea, and I would be quite impressed if you got it spread out to amateur developers outside the AGS community. Even if it doesn happen, I think it would be great to get some easier to read icons than the current AGS site ratings. (I also do enjoy the competitive aspect of it - I can't wait for someone to go for a maximum score

).

As for the icon, I think it's a good beginning. But I think there are too many shades. Ideally, it should be done in strict black-and-white (possibly with one tone of gray like the background on the PEGI icons). And the pixel art style of the icon (including the font) wouldn't suit higher resolution games. If you do want it to be spread outside the AGS community, I recommend going for a very stylized vector-graphic style that can be resized for any resolution and for print, as well as one or two different pixel versions (say one at 64x64 another at 128x128) for use in lo-res games and on websites.
Also, the white border is very intrusive if you try putting the icon on a black loading screen. If you succeed in designing icons that are communicative enough you won't even need the text (also good for non-English language games).

(off-topic - I always thought it would be funny to make censorship icons that really showed what was offensive about the game, so you'd have PEGI-like icons of erect penises and exploding heads)

Alynn · Wed 09/08/2006 13:33:31

Dan: if that is how you choose to rate your games then that is fine, but this is a self rating system. I'm still working out the "severity" of the "bad" categlories. However there will be NO age categories. The idea is to give any consumer a truthful idea of game content, NOT to tell them they aren't old enough to play it. That is for them to decide for themselves. I write about why this is in the documentation.

Speaking of which, I have completed an alpha draft version of the EAGMA documentation... The following link points to another message board where I would like discussion of the document to take place, as I can moderate the topic and keep the spam down, and it gives everyone a central place to put ideas to cut down on multiple suggestions of the same thing.

I also ask that if you belong to other amateur game making communities to point them to the post on Skytower Games, I want as wide of discimination as possible among amateur game making communities so I can get as much feedback as possible. This includes IRC channels, or even word of mouth.

EAGMA Documentation 1.0a thread

Thanks again for your comments.

fred · Wed 09/08/2006 13:38:53

Couldn't we suggest to PEGI and ESRB that they both include a new Blue Cup Rating Icon meaning "This is an AGS game. Anything can and probably will happen"Ã,Â

Dan_N · Wed 09/08/2006 13:41:21

First of all, scoring isn't perfect and is added, but since that ideea has been discarded, i'll be off.

jetxl · Wed 09/08/2006 13:47:44

Dan_N_GameZ, I like your point list. I'll use it for the witch night sequel.

Dan_N · Wed 09/08/2006 13:54:04

Ok, jet, i have no ideea what that witch thingy is so, uhm, thanks, i guess.

CaptainBinky · Wed 09/08/2006 14:22:20

Dan - I was only taking the mickey, I appreciate that what you posted was only work in progress

I like the idea conceptually. I think it'd be a nice thing to do, given how amateur games are completely unregulated, it'd be another bit of proof of the maturity of amateur games.

So yeah, register www.eagma.org and go for it, I say. We'd be happy to support such a system for The Forgotten Element (provided that "having character with large boobs" doesn't make it "TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE FOR UNDER 18s" or something

)

Cheers,

Cap'n Binky

edit: Just read the doc. All cool and everything. Except... I really think you would need a defined set of symbols, and not allow EAGMA affiliates to make up their own for their games. You need to have a set of standards so that games can be compared, and users are familiar with the meaning and context of each symbol. Or have I misread that?

lemmy101 · Wed 09/08/2006 14:34:01

I think it's a cool idea, go for it

Can't wait to see the "May Contains Baps" logo