Phosphorus bombs in Gaza

[RickJ]

I think the answer is pretty obvious. A promise by the colonial powers to take Palestinian land and give to Zionist settlers that was only partially fulfilled would hardly strengthen you case.

I think you are missing the fact that at that point in time England owned of the whole area.  As the legitimate sovereigns they could do with that land whatever they wanted and eventually they partitioned off a piece of it and created the country of Israel.  This is pretty much the way Iraq, Jordan, and a number of other countries in the area came into being.     

That said, do you honestly think that the misery and dysfunction of the Palestinian territories has nothing to do with the restrictions on travel, the security fence, the blockade, the demolitions, the targeting by the Israelis of Palestinian political leaders, police and security forces, and all the other things listed above? Foreign aid, even billions of dollars in foreign aid, cannot make you prosperous. Only a functioning economy can do that. And I cannot imagine how you could build a functioning economy under such conditions.

Yes I do!  The Palestinians practice a flawed philosophy of death and violence.  All the things you listed above are the result of 50+ years of violence and war directed at Israel.   Has Israel ever launched an unprovoked attack on anyone?

[Snarky]

I think you are missing the fact that at that point in time England owned of the whole area.  As the legitimate sovereigns they could do with that land whatever they wanted and eventually they partitioned off a piece of it and created the country of Israel.  This is pretty much the way Iraq, Jordan, and a number of other countries in the area came into being.

If Israel agreed to return to the borders set up by the UN and the British when the nation was created, and let the Palestinians have the rest as a free state, I think we wouldn't have a problem. A vast majority of the Palestinians would accept that as a negotiated compromise, and extremists calling for the destruction of Israel would lose almost all of their support.

That said, do you honestly think that the misery and dysfunction of the Palestinian territories has nothing to do with the restrictions on travel, the security fence, the blockade, the demolitions, the targeting by the Israelis of Palestinian political leaders, police and security forces, and all the other things listed above? Foreign aid, even billions of dollars in foreign aid, cannot make you prosperous. Only a functioning economy can do that. And I cannot imagine how you could build a functioning economy under such conditions.

Yes I do!  The Palestinians practice a flawed philosophy of death and violence.  All the things you listed above are the result of 50+ years of violence and war directed at Israel.   Has Israel ever launched an unprovoked attack on anyone?

You can say that all the things the Israelis have done and continue to do to the Palestinians are the Palestinians own fault if you like. (To that I would respond: Please! Let the Israelis take some responsibility for their own actions!) But you cannot deny that those factors are a major cause of the poor quality of life in the Palestinian territories.

You have only responded to two small and fairly unimportant parts of my post.

[Nacho]

Snarky, you can save your energy if your threads are directed to me, I simply ignore them... I just know you did because I saw my name in a quote when I was scrolling down, but nothing else... Write to those who want to read what you say.

[miguel]

RickJ, I really don't think you mean what you said about Palestine having bilions of dollars to spend on their development. That is a wrong notion. No money at all arrives at any door in Palestine.
Please turn on your TV and look at how they live and the means they have to fight back, because if they don't they will be exterminated until the last man carrying an Hamas flag is killed.

Who cares what Hamas means or is? Was the IRA ever better or worse than ETA? Only the people that died for a cause care.

Why are the British treated like monsters when they fought the Irish and Israel treated like terrorism-fighters when they fight Palestine?

Is not Israel the main American military base in the Middle East? Aren't they the ones that are given billions of dollars in weapons from the US?

I respect your wisdom RickJ but you should start treating us like informed people and stop the established clichés that are normally told when debating this war that has gone forever.   

[Raider]

All it is, is fundamental perspective. Their ideas of freedom fighters/terrorists are obviously different to ours. Who are we to judge the situation? "Who is bad?" "They are both bad" these are conclusions we are drawing from half truths and edited footage from the media. We will never have a valid opinon, just our ignorent perspectives. I'm not shooting anyone down here but unless we are a fly on the wall inside the house of the Israeli leaders and Hamas, we will never know who is the "dumbass" or idiot.

We say they are dumb for fighting, they say we are dumb for being ignorant of their affairs. Who is right?

the terrorists didn't and don't value life the same way.

This is a classic look of western debate. How do we know whos life they value and who's they don't.

Now we can look at it the other way. They see us as the enemy (not their only one) and declair their hate for us. Then they blindly jump to conclusions about our way of life and our values just as we bag theirs.

I am from New Zealand which is an anti war country and I (and everyone I know) were raised not to judge peoples value just because they differ from our own. Arn't we just as bad as each other if they sit in their home yelling AMERICAN INFIDEL and we sit in ours saying TERROIST.

Anyway back to the point. We know only a little about what is really going on between these two enemies so maybe we should stop trying to impose our values on their.

Yes civilian cassualties are bad, but who said they are civilians and why do we believe that source? Do you believe everything that you are told?

"The media's the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. Because they control the minds of the masses." - Malcom X

[LUniqueDan]

Do terrorists hunt sea kittens?

[Nacho]

Miguel, Palestine is the country in the world which receives more euro per inhabitant in concept of aids from the rest of the world, 260 euros/inhabitant per year. 500 from Europe, approx. 200 from the US. If that is "no money at all" for you...

And now, please, explain me how the "you are uninformed" that "my side" use against "your side" is so evil and you haven't complained a bit when "your side" constantly says that "My side is obviously biased"... I think it's basically the same....

[Andail]

Nacho, you have expressed that you don't wish to participate in this debate.

It's not good faith to openly ignore arguments of the opposition (like you expressively did with Snarky) and then keep posting your own arguments.

[Snarky]

Nacho has a point (someone pass that message along). I'm sorry to say I think most of your "facts" are pretty much wrong, Miguel. For example, I'm (almost) certain that the US does not have any military bases in Israel. The main US bases in the Middle East are in Saudi Arabia. (Permanent bases, that is. Currently I'd imagine there are more army personnel in Iraq.) And my experience has not been that Israel gets more sympathy than the UK did in its struggle against the IRA, except perhaps here in the US.

Edit: Andail, as far as I'm concerned, Nacho is free to read or not read my posts as he chooses. It won't make a difference to what I choose to reply to. If he doesn't want to respond back, ever, I think that speaks for itself.

If there's some particularly good point I've made that you think cannot be overlooked going forward in the discussion, feel free to quote it without attribution. 

[Andail]

They are surrounded on three sides by friendly Arab countries.  Over the years they have received billions and billions of dollars of foreign aid from both the West and other Arab countries.   They have had every opportunity to create a modern and prosperous country just as Israel has done but they have chosen another path.   Instead of building a future for their children they spent all that money on hating Jews.   Now they have only themselves to blame for their current situation.

You quoted this from my earlier post but apparently haven't read it.   Your response doesn't seem to be at all releated??

I did respond to it. I said that Israel is controlling the land, air and maritime borders of Gaza and purposefully works to impede any sort of development therein. Therefore it is wrong to claim that Gaza has any opportunity to grow and prosper, but chooses not to. That's a very narrowminded and cynical view.

You (and many others) seem to ignore that by most standards, Israel is an occupying power in Gaza. Both UN and Human Rights Watch assert this (though I guess you, Rick, don't care much for UN and what they call things).

In addition to a very stubborn desire to control and close the Gaza borders, Israel uses far too much violence and illegal weapons.

From Wikipedia:

The Times Online carried out an investigation that "revealed that dozens of Palestinians in Gaza have sustained serious injuries from the substance, which burns at extremely high temperatures,"[385] and that the evidence that white phosphorus shells have been used is so compelling that the Israeli denial have increasingly lacked credibility.[386] On January 15 a UN aid agency accused Israel of firing white phosphorus shells at its compound, causing a destructive fire.[387]

Edit:
Another interesting point that has to do with how Israel accuses Palestinians of using human shields:

Counting casualties, Israel has killed more UN-staff and medical workers than Hamas has killed Israels.
In fact, Israel has killed more of its own soldiers during the invasion, than Hamas did with their rockets.
Excessive force, anyone?

[Nacho]

This time the glance has been a little deeper... "Nacho has a point" was bright as a light house.

Snarky, I appreciate your comments and your threads, they are interesting and give lots of information. But you do not only debate, you look more "how something is said" than "what is said", and use any dialectic slip to accuse your "rival" of being a bad person. Sorry, I don' t like that. That's what you did with me with my "Georgia is not Europe" (Nacho, you are a racist) with Darth's "Black people tend to majoritary vote Obama" (Darth, you are a racist) and with RickJ' s "You must learn more about the situation" (Rick, you are insulting your debate partners). Curiously, when the same thing is done by the side you are supporting at that time (for example, "Israel is bad, and if you don't agree with me it' s because you are severally biased") you say nothing.

It' s very usefull tactic to win debates, I know it because I used it a lot before, but doesn' t really contribute to the debates... It simply closes them.

If you tell me "Nacho, I wasn' t aware of that, I won' t do that with you again" or simply "Nacho, I think that your conception of what I do is wrong, I do not do that, but I you really think that I do that, I will be more carefull with you from now for the shake of frienship and good debating" I will start debating you again, "e-shake" your hand, and doing "tabula rasa", considering all I said to you, or what you said of me, forgotten. 

And sorry, Petter... I said I was going to get out of this debate, but if I see something, not only manifestly false, but also something which is totally the opposite to truth (It' s not only that Palestine DO NOT receive money, but also it' s the country which receives MORE MONEY) I think I should be allowed to make a little post. Similarly, something that has been said is also true (Israel's  settlings are growing); Israel is dismantling its settlings in Cisjordania (Since lots of years ago, 8 or 10...) and in Gaza (since two or three years ago, I think, when Sharon was the PM)

And well, Petter... You seem to mantion UN a lot. Palestines never give a fuck about the UN during 60 years. When they thought they were going to "stain the mediterranean in red with the blood of the Israelians" they didn' t had the UN resolutions in mind, I think... The UN had the opportunity to grant Israel's existance and did nothing else than "warnings", "severe warnings", "extremelly severe warnings" and "Extremelly annoyed and severe warnings" to its enemies. Israel has been figthing, receiving bites, low hits, splittings... and the "referee" (UN) has been watching the fight, seeing Israel' s complains about unfair game doing nothing with a half smile in its face. Now Israel said "Ok... I will play dirty as well!"

And it' s is preciselly now when the referee comes running to stop the fight? I can't understand (maybe not endorse, but understand) that Israel turns to the referee and says "You know chap? Fuck you, I will finish this alone!".

That' s why Israel, as well, doesn't want to give back to the first UN resolution and give back to the muslims what was told there to belong to them. Israel' s opinion there is clear "They did want war? Okay... so be it". Look that people showing no desire to fight with Israel has no problem at all with them. 30% of the Israel population were muslims who did not fled Palestine when the Arab community made a call to abandon the place because they were going to invade Israel. Israel has no problems (nowadays) with Jordan or Egypt. Not even with Cisjordania... Israel attacks those which attack it: Lebanon and Gaza. And has an eye with those which might want to attack as well... Siria and Iran.

I perfectly understand it. It has been proved to be a sensible tactic. 60 years ago no arab country wanted Israel to exist. Nowadays very few are still beligerant with it. Israel tactic' s working.

[Snarky]

Look, I don't want to derail this with our own issues. I'm leaving in half an hour to go see the Inauguration, so I won't be online again until Wednesday.

I don't think I generally attack people. I attack statements. I use things people have said to argue that those things are incorrect. This seems to bother you. If I can speculate a bit, maybe that's because you (in my view) tend to be careless about the facts and about what you say. For example, none of the three examples you point to are correct: In the Georgia debate, I repeatedly explained that I didn't think you were racist. The argument with Darth wasn't even about what you say (it was primarily about how the electoral college works), nor did I ever for a moment suggest he was racist, and in the example from this thread, you seem to have glommed on to a statement that was in response to you, not to RickJ. In the last two cases, I strongly suspect that you've got my posts mixed up with someone else's.

As for a double standard in staying silent, I can't say I've noticed anyone saying those things you paraphrase in this thread. Again, I think you're being careless in how you characterize other people's statements.

Arguing against things people say that I think are wrong, and things I disagree with... that's a big part of what I think a discussion is. I don't think I could try to stop doing it. And being accused of saying things I haven't said, and doing things I demonstrably haven't done, doesn't make me inclined to apologize to you. I'll continue reading your posts. If I disagree, or if I agree, I may respond. Whether you read what I write or choose to reply is entirely up to you, and if you don't find it worthwhile there'll be no hard feelings.

I've said as much as I'm going to say about this. I'm not interested in more debate over the debate. I wrote a couple of lengthy posts back there, with what I thought were some good points about the situation for the Palestinians, and the balance of victimhood in this conflict. No one has responded to the substance of any of that.

Have a good debate, everyone.

[Nacho]

Your post basically say: "I do what I do because I am right..." So, more of the same... Pitty, my finger was in the "reset button" already. I don' t really mind, there are other 4,332 AGS members here to discuss with ^_^

And about the double standard in staying silent, read Andail' s posts again and notice that he made exactly the same you accussed me and RickJ to do. There is a post where he mentions "bias" not only once, but two...

Nothing I really care, because the king of picking something unconnected and make a big mountain of it it' s you, though... 

And now... Again to [Ignore Snarky] status. 

[SSH]

Well let's see, what will Hamas get out of this?  

- More public support for their philosophy (i.e. jews == bad)

I can't speak for anywhere except the people I know, but they seem to have swayed more to the "Israeli government == bad" rather than the racist "jews == bad". As has been seen the the UK and US during Iraq, what a government does is not necessarily representative of what their people want, and nor is "Israeli citizens" the same thing as "Jews". I don't think its helpful to try and turn this into, or accuse anyone of, anti-semitism (especially as arabs are semites too!)

[miguel]

Snarky, the US don't have an 'official' military base over there, I thought you'd understood, although Israel are their closest economical and military allies on the region. As for the Israeli sympathy over the English I think that it's very clear that Israel are still seen on a WWII bases and the common European feels sympathy for them. The English, I'm sorry to say, and with the help of films like Braveheart or Michael Collins are pretty much seen like an invading country.
Now, this does not mean it is the reality of things, does it?

Dear Nacho, do you really think any of the people you see on television earn/get those two hundred and something Euro you spoke off? C'mon, most of them eat bread and water and they feel lucky!

It's not about land or money any more, people are being killed, not soldiers or terrorists (what a vague notion this is)!
What I know is that there is a risk of ethnic extermination. How many kids whose parents were killed by Israeli will seek revenge? Many, I believe.
This war will end in a tragic way or remain like this, an eternal war were the strongest side slowly gets what they want. Death by death.   

[MillsJROSS]

No, because the terrorists didn't and don't value life the same way. They wanted as many innocent people killed, because to them, there are no civilians. Everyone of us is evil and needs to be destroyed.

You know Mills, I found your arguments for Israel to be quite moderate until I read this, and it says much about your way of thinking.

You don't actually think that terrorists label an entire people as evil, do you?  Couldn't it be that, maybe, possibly, they attack people because those people are interfering with their way of life, as America has done by meddling in Middle Eastern affairs for decades, including (but not limited to) the post-Desert Storm blockade of Iraq that has cost the country thousands (perhap millions) of lives from lack of food and medicine?

I think you're over-generalizing what I'm saying, or rather taking the term Terrorist to mean Palestinians. I'm positive there are plenty of people in Gaza who do not label all of the Israeli people as "evil", and have a strong desire for peace that entails living side by side. Just as I know that there are plenty of people in Israel who feel the same way.

However, the action of Hamas sending in bombs to purposefully hit civilian targets...not military targets, not an area that poses a physical threat to them...shows, to me, that they must not value life the same way. Maybe they don't think of the Israeli's as evil, but they definitely don't seem to be valuing the people they're bombing at all.

But I think Hamas is 100% responsible for all civilian deaths caused by Israel bombing their military installations.

Come on, man, bias aside, this can't possibly be your opinion?

I'm not really sure why you don't understand how that is my opinion. I understand that there is a plight in Gaza. I understand they live in squalor. I understand that they're angry at Israel's existence. I do have mixed feeling as to whether or not Israel should have become a state. But if I started shooting people, with a gun, and someone cut off my hand in the exchange. I can blame the person who cut off my hand till I'm blue in the face, however, if I didn't start shooting...I'd still have a hand. I'd hold myself responsible for the lost appendage. 100% responsible.

When we look at the death toll, it is lopsided. I don't disagree. However, it's not like Israel is surrounded by friends, and just has one neighboring country that it's at war with. It has to defend itself off from many countries. So, when they bomb military targets, they have to think how good their defenses will be after a military strike. Will they have enough resources for this or that. It's not like this is a short term war.

Israel is playing a long term game. They can't just send in a "strategic" attack that reduces lives if it entails weakening their military force the next time around. It's far more "strategic" to use long-range weapons that damage military targets quite well.

As I said before...it's awful that innocent people are dieing. It is. I don't think Israel is absolved of all guilt. However, I'm far more angry at the people who build bombs and military manufacturing plants near civilians, than the people who are destroying those buildings. There's a deep history to draw blame for or from either side in this conflict. Whether or not Israel should have been made a state or not is irrelevant in that it did and is. I just think that people are villianizing Israel's actions, in this one exchange, without a thought at a bigger picture. That Israel doesn't have the convenience of longer military attacks that save as many lives as possible, isn't considered, or is just thrown out the window. Both parties share responsibility and blame for this war, overall. But the civilian count would be a lot less if there weren't military installations built within civilian hot spots. So in the context of the original post...I see exactly why Israel is doing what it's doing, and I object to comparing a death toll to determine blame.

War sucks.

-MillsJROSS

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Well actually my response was more to your comment about the trade center combined with the 'terrorists see us all as evil'.  It just greatly simplifies (and distorts, in my opinion) what's actually going on.  It doesn't appear to be what you meant, which is good, but I'm personally annoyed by the way the media and the previous US Presidency went to great efforts to demonize these people with the excuse that they simply attack us because they're evil/see us as evil/because we're prosperous. 

There's simply more to it than that, and that was my point, really.  If you agree then we're on the same page .

[Pumaman]

However, the action of Hamas sending in bombs to purposefully hit civilian targets...not military targets, not an area that poses a physical threat to them...shows, to me, that they must not value life the same way. Maybe they don't think of the Israeli's as evil, but they definitely don't seem to be valuing the people they're bombing at all.

But can you really claim that Isreal is only attacking military targets in Gaza?
The pictures here don't seem to indicate that a military base has been destroyed.

And just looking at the statistics, surely this can't be justified:

* More than 1,300 Palestinians killed
* 13 Israeli deaths
* More than 4,000 buildings destroyed in Gaza, more than 20,000 severely damaged
* 50,800 Gazans homeless and 400,000 without running water

Looks like a pretty one-sided war so far...

[MillsJROSS]

The problem with your justification are that you're distilling context to present hard facts, and drawing a conclusion from a comparison of numbers. When the truth is you need to take away the filter and look at why things are happening.

Say I tell you that you kill 1 billion germs every time you brush your teeth. But, in your life, they've only caused a few cavities and some sore gums. Without any context one might side with the germs. Until one observes, that the germs are going to always, always, always eat and cause decay to our mouth. So we need to take harsh action to make sure our mouth stays intact. Because, with clean teeth and a healthy mouth we have the potential to live longer. I'm not trying to say Hamas are germs here, that would be erroneous. What I am trying to show is that without any proper context one can draw a bad conclusion.

What truly can't be justified is putting military offensive facilities near and around populous civilian areas. Bombing another country, and trying to get sympathy for your cause because of the death count. Justify that for me and I might agree with the numbers you've provided.

-MillsJROSS

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Well, I think a strong argument can be made for any underdog nation applying less-than 'honorable' tactics in order to sway the battle in their favor; they are, afterall, heavily outclassed.  For years the British harbored very deep grudges against America for employing guerilla tactics in the Revolutionary War to even the odds.  There's this strange idea some people have that in war you shouldn't be underhanded or cheat, when in fact there are no rules in warfare and innocents on both sides always suffer the results.  This isn't condoning someone who sets rockets to fire from a civilian population into a civilian population any more than it condones a blockade of an entire nation resulting in thousands of deaths from starvation and sickness.

But that's war.  There are no rules or justifications.  It's an unpleasant business all around.