Please avoid (non-sustainable) palm oil and save the orang-tans from extinction

[Matti]

Oh please, Nacho.

Is your narrow mind stuck somewhere in the cold-war era? If you think in good-capitalism <> evil-communism patterns then you really have a small horizon.

Capitalism as we know is indeed greedy and miserable. You're right about us living a high standard, but that's because we live at the expense of poor countries that produce the cheap stuff we consume under hardly bearable conditions. Go make our t-shirts in Bangladesh and say again what you think of such a system.

There are much poorer countries than Cuba, Venezuela or Bolivia that aren't socialistic or communistic at all.

Also, if you buy a sportshoe for a 100 Dollar, a few cents go to the worker while 80 Dollar went into advertising (and the rest to the manager). Don't you think this is a complete perversion of a way to produce things?

[Nacho]

No... I think in "Where do people live better" terms... I won't include the "morale" term into discussion so communist/socialist lovers can still have a little chance to win the debate. 

There are much poorer countries than Cuba, Venezuela or Bolivia that aren't socialistic or communistic at all.

Yes, but there are no RICHER countries than those that ARE socialists... and if being as "rich" or as "welthy" as Venezuela is your goal, sorry, mine is a bit higher.

EDIT

This... is the map of the "Economical freedom index" (Basically, the darker, the less socialist) It' s not a map of wealthy. But it's amazingly coincident. If you think that there is no pattern, ok... Then, it becomes to me a complete compliment to be called "mind narrow" by you, because you should show a perfect definition of "gullibility", then. 

No hard feelings, I guess... I don' t know why, but I like you, Matti!

[Matti]

No... I think in "Where do people live better" terms... I won't include the "morale" term into discussion so communist/socialist lovers can still have a little chance to win the debate. 

First of all, I'm not a communist but I'm a strong anti-capitalist and I'm against dogmatic ideologies. I just don't want to choose between two bad systems and I think it's stupid and contraproductive to say that we need this kind of capitalism because the communist systems we experience(d) are much worse. Even capitalism could be so much better/friendlier/wealthier than it is now without having to call it something else than capitalism. But I'm not looking for some sort of "compromise", but this would go far now and I don't have much time...

There are much poorer countries than Cuba, Venezuela or Bolivia that aren't socialistic or communistic at all.

Yes, but there are no RICHER countries than those that ARE socialists... and if being as "rich" or as "welthy" as Venezuela is your goal, sorry, mine is a bit higher.

Hehe, mine is higher too. And I'm everything else than a fan of Chávez or Castro (though I like Morales a bit). But you have to compare a third world country with a third world country, not a rich western nation.

No hard feelings, I guess... I don' t know why, but I like you, Matti!

No hard feelings at all. I like debates as long as everyone watches his mouth, isn't easily offended and doesn't suddenly get angry. So it's quite nice to discuss with you, since you fulfill these terms. 

I don't know if we're a bit too off-topic here but as I said before things like this palm-oil thing is directly connected to capitalisms way of the cheapest possible (over)production. If it doesn't bother anyone (and robvalue is gone anyway), I'll expand my thoughts a bit within the next days.

[InCreator]

I also hate capitalism!!! Grrrrrr! Greedy way of ruling the World! Americans! Brits! Spanish, Germans... Ain' t you tired of this misery style of life you have?!? Let' s move, we have an alternative!!!

We do not have an alternative.
That's the sad part.

Socialism, communism, self-providing-economy, stone age, nothing really works better than capitalism. Atleast not when you like computers, tv, central heating and all the wonders or modern era.
That's why we have capitalism.

But who says it's good? It less shitty option of shit options. Or to be more specific, more good things for more bad things. During soviet era, hunger was rarely a problem, education was totally free, and to survive (basic things like food, shelter) all you had to do was minor effort. Today, getting thrown to street, losing your job, etc is totally more possible, risks are everywhere, safety for future is daily problem. Then again, some of us can benefit from it much easier.

But I still hate it.

[Nacho]

Good points by everybody! I wanted to read that you think that communism (Socialism, marxism, etc...) is not a good sollution either. With that, as IC says, there is no reliable alternative. Maybe capitalism is not perfect, but, atm, is the best we have. I think I never said that I think capitalism is perfect, or even good. I just think that it' s the best option.

And matti... I suspected, by your sensible posts and way of thinking, that you were not comunist, or (old fashioned) socialist, but you must recognise that the red star avatar does not help Fortunatelly you have Ayrton Senna' s helmet in the signature, which compensates.

[Snake]

I'll do something when Farmers and/or Cows are threatened by extinction.

[kaputtnik]

Hey Nacho, what is economic freedom anyway? The freedom to go set up an industry in a foreign country to produce the cheap goods for your own society? It is nothing but a shallow index of the countries with the highest possible freedom (and urge at the same time) to produce, trade and consume.

I like living in a political system like that, because it gives me the opportunity to think disrespectfully of it; that said, I enjoy the western world paradox quite a lot, and I don't think in categories. There are no communists or socialists anymore, these ideals or political stereotypes just don't work anymore.

And of course I'll be cutting down on my palm oil consumption. From maybe 0,1 liters in the last 15 years to 0,05 the next 15.

[Ryan Timothy B]

Palm oil - "Previously the second-most widely produced edible oil, after soybean oil, 28 million tonnes were produced worldwide in 2004."

It's almost a lost cause in a little community like this.  I agree that Youtube is your best bet, if any.

[Nacho]

Kaputtnik, no... It' s the level of statal interventionism, measured by different statistic aspects... I don' t think it has much to see in how easy is to set foreign industries in the contry (Well, yes, but it' s not the main aspect of the study...)

Anyway, I WISH that everybody would think like you about the communism and (old fashioned) socialism, but I am not that optimistic.

[ManicMatt]

Ah, I missed the whole thing. Oh well.

I boycotted Nestle myself, personally.

If I boycotted everything that had hurt/harmed/annoyed nature/animals/people in any way whatsoever either now or in the past, I'd probably have to sit in a cardboard box on the street. Oh wait.. sit naked on the street with no cardboard box. Am I right people? Oh wait, hover in the air, naked on the street with no box. There we go.

[Sam.]

My university, amongst others, boycotted nestle. It changed things. Or so we were told. We have kitkats back anyway.

This community is too small, geeks are too partisan.

[Paper Carnival]

Then maybe we should start an online petition.

I have just the right place: http://www.petitiononline.com/

There you go. I saved the day for one more time!

[Nacho]

Oh, man! Are they going to cancel Pushing Daisies? I signed the petition...

[Babar]

Completely off-topic, but something I've noticed for a while:
The more easily accessible something becomes, the harder it is to shine through in that thing. I know it sounds logical in words, but it is odd to see it in practice. Like that petitiononline thing. It is so easy to start a petition on that site, so easy to get hundreds of signatures, and as a result, nobody takes that stuff seriously, and it is very unlikely you could sway the opinion of some private company by showing them a petition on that site.
Another example would be like blogging. If (for example) Maddox had started his site a few years later, I get the feeling it would be completely lost in the sea of boring, average blogs, and nobody would really bother with it. Same with bands...now you just mess around with a few tunes, upload it on myspace- just like all the other hundreds of thousands of people- and have absolutely nobody notice it or listen to it.

PS: I don't use palm oil for any of my foods, but then I do buy snacks that most probably use palm oil somewhere in their production process. I like my snacks on occasion, and I really don't care to give them up, but I can't find (or there is no indication of) any non-palm oil snacks. What does vegetable oil mean, anyhow? Most of the crisps/chips I eat have that written on the back.

[Matti]

And matti... I suspected, by your sensible posts and way of thinking, that you were not comunist, or (old fashioned) socialist, but you must recognise that the red star avatar does not help

You're right, but the red star is also a symbol for the EZLN, who earned my respect by being revolutionary anticapitalistic, yet undogmatic and democratic.

Also I find the star aesthetically appealing.. 

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I'm rather surprised by some of the negativity in this thread, honestly.  I think humanity as a whole needs to reassess its place in this world if we want to continue.  Many scholars have already established that our trend for demanding surpluses instead of just what we need (this applies to birth rate as well) is going to exhaust our resources in the foreseeable future.

I realize that his post is rather preachy and that there are no easy answers, but is that any reason to dismiss him or his points entirely?  I think this is an actual cause for concern, as are many others with regards to how we treat the environment. 

Life isn't just a bubble where what we do doesn't ever have far-reaching consequences, and turning your back on it doesn't make it go away.

[Ozzie]

The problem is that robvalue just preaches but doesn't discuss his points.
The problem is that he expects from us to "see the light" und agree with him without questioning.

And you have to ask yourself how much sense it makes for the small community of ours to boycott palm oil? Such a boycott must be bigger and better organised, and maybe it's smarter to intervene on production level than on consumer level, and there we have barely any might.

[InCreator]

I'm rather surprised by some of the negativity in this thread, honestly.  I think humanity as a whole needs to reassess its place in this world if we want to continue.  Many scholars have already established that our trend for demanding surpluses instead of just what we need (this applies to birth rate as well) is going to exhaust our resources in the foreseeable future.

I realize that his post is rather preachy and that there are no easy answers, but is that any reason to dismiss him or his points entirely?  I think this is an actual cause for concern, as are many others with regards to how we treat the environment. 

Em. Nobody's really against his cause. Or better, safer world. And I guess most people care (except me, I hate monkeys). But the petition here, it's based on idea that starting a passive cell here, would ultimately change whole world.

It's the idea that generates negativity: it really doesn't work. 10- or even 1000 AGSers boycotting palm oil won't give even an extra month to orangutans. Yet, choosing your products because of some ingredient for rest of your life will be a chore. Chore that won't do any good really. Many posts reflect same thought here.

And how dramatically robvalue reacts to this, eliminates even last tiny bits of reason in this thread.

To really make a change, robvalue has several WORKING options...
* bring the "light" to the owners and pushers of palm oil industry, make em' see!
* kill them. And anyone after them.
* learn hard, become scientist, invent synthetical palm oil, make it cheaper to produce
* start a seriously-taken fight group against palm oil usage. Something that's in real media, not a small internet community

[Phemar]

I'm not really for everyone boycotting palm oil or any other form of mass boycott, but howcome no-one uses olive oil or sunflower oil?
That's all we use. I'd never even heard of palm oil before this thread.

[Babar]

The only reason I've heard of it before is because it was what my father used to warn and threaten me with when I wanted to eat at some random fish 'n chips stall, or some fried roadside snack- "They use palm oil in it! The unhealthiest type of oil! They re-use the same oil the whole day!".
I generally use canola, or olive oil for special occasions .