Please buy Free Range animal products!

[Meowster]

When was the last time you walked past a group of people and thought "oh there are some individuals gathered together in a group" rather than "there's a group of people?" I love dogs, but when I see a group of dogs I just think "huh, a pack of dogs". I guess what I'm saying is, I don't quite see the point in what you're saying? I don't mean that in a rude way, but I just don't get quite what you mean? Do you mean we've become kind of disconnected with cows as being other living creatures with feelings etc? If so, this may be true for some people but I think you'll agree that just because we have stopped regarding them as living beings doesn't necessarily mean that's right. They're as much living beings capable of fear and pain as our cats and dogs are, and to be able to forget that and turn a blind eye to their unecessary suffering... well what does that make us? I think we'd all like to think of ourselves as people who would not stand for seeing any living creature being unecessarily hurt or bullied. If you saw a group of kids kicking a dog you'd step in, right? If your neighbour kept his dog chained in his yard day and night in the rain and cold, you'd call up the RSPCA (or equivelent) wouldn't you? So why is it that so many of us can turn a blind eye to the suffering of cows and pigs and chickens? As you say it may be because we are so used to seeing them packaged as meat that we've forgotten that they deserve a decent life before their deaths too... but surely that's a rubbish excuse to turn a blind eye? If you've never met a pig or a cow or a chicken, let me tell you: they're pretty awesome. Not as awesome as my pet goat, but awesome nonetheless


Snake - maybe you didn't read the link text to the photos, some of them were actually examples of happy free range animals. However I'm worried if you don't see the problem with the photo of the chickens crammed together. Maybe you didn't see it? I am sad about this comment: I don't really give a shit about each individual cow's quality of life.

I've also lived on a farm and around farms, and I've seen both cows in a free range environment with minimal stresses, and cows in a much different, more intensive environment in which they were constantly stressed, reared (bizarrely, because I'm not even sure if it's that common with cows) in a dark shed in which they stood in a foot deep pile of their own shit all day long, giving some of them foot infections which made standing agonizing for them... not that they could lie down because they were standing in a foot deep slush of their own waste! So while I'm sure you've worked on a farm where the practises were quite good (and these are the kinds of practises I would like most people to adopt), other practises ARE put into place that are far less kind, on other farms. I'd also disagree with your statement that cows get used to their conditions - although they may not make such a fuss over them if they're not used to an alternative, it's still not a good or noble or kind thing to keep cows in the kind of environment my neighbour did. Also personally I don't want to eat a cow that's been marinated in its own shit before it gets slaughtered.

I believe pigs and chickens and turkeys overall get far worse treatment than cows anyway (I could be wrong but from my experience this is true), maybe if you are interested (which I gather you are at least a little if you took the time to reply in this thread) you should read about some of the horrible farming practises for those animals. In the UK at least it's easy, if you want to, to buy meat from the kinds of animals that you would have farmed

Basically what I'm saying is... it sounds like your experience of working on a farm is of working on a good farm, and those farms are excellent and I buy my meat from them (or from my free range butcher who sources from farms like this). But the issue I have and I think that people should be more aware of is that some farms are not like that - some have very very cruel practices that would make the average person buying meat from them absolutely sick. They treat animals not as animals, but as meat on legs. It extends beyond that too - cruel transportation practices are a problem. For instance, some animals spend weeks in transit in searing heat, unable to eat or drink regularly, unable to lie down or sit, standing in piles of their own waste before they are slaughtered. Their final hours are unbearable. Watching videos of pigs screaming in fear, horses wide eyed with panic, sheep and chickens falling over with exhaustion upon reaching their final destination - it's really fucking harsh and something that I'm amazed that any human being is actually physically able to oversee. That's a related issue to the subject of intensive farming, though also one worth mentioning I think.

So yeah... in conclusion... the farm you worked for sounds like a good farm. If you're interested in learning more about what I'm talking about, there are plenty of websites you can read and look at pictures. It's really horrific and unfortunately incredibly commonplace, so the more awareness is raised about it and people can make informed decisions, the better. Even if your decision is, as is so many other peoples in this thread, to continue buying the meat from abused animals (and really, no matter what your stance on the subject, these animals are abused).

If people treated cats or dogs in the same way as they treat intensively farmed chickens and pigs - and pigs for instance have the same level of intelligence and awareness as a dog or cat - then they would be charged with animal abuse and everyone would look down on them as being disgusting, cruel and evil people. But I guess for animals less cute or less commonly considered as pets or companions it's okay, eh?

[Trihan]

I should clarify that I was just agreeing with Snake that people have become desensitised to the plight of cows and chickens as opposed to, say, dogs because we no longer think of them as individuals. It's not my personal standpoint, but the fact of the matter is that since most people think of livestock animals in "groups" they aren't as concerned about them as they are the animals that they still individualise. Is that clearer?

[Meowster]

Ah okay I see what you mean. Well do you agree with what I said (that basically although that is the case, it shouldn't be - we shouldn't treat "less cute" animals in a way that would make us criminals if we treated a cat or a dog that way)? I think it's worth a thought.

[Trihan]

It shouldn't be the case, no. That's the way that society has progressed, though, for better or worse. Maybe someday nobody will eat anything but free-range produce, and the animals will live in peace and prosperity for all their days. That day is not today, sadly.

And it would be hypocritical of me to just suddenly up and say OI OI I WILL HAVE NO MORE OF THIS INTENSIVE BALDERDASH because I've known about the issues and continue to just randomly buy whatever meat I happen to fancy cooking. It's not like I go out of my way to buy intensively-farmed meat, but I don't go out of my way to buy free-range either. I've never given much thought to where my food came from.

[Snake]

And I should also clarify this:

I am sad about this comment: <insert Snake's mouth here>

Well, what I was getting at there was simply that I wouldn't tuck them in, make sure they're not suicidal and read the damn things a bed time story before shutting off the lights at night.
Not that I don't care if they're getting the razor-edged whip every half hour because their lazy eye hasn't straightened out yet.

I think the solution to your problem would be for the employers to put up cameras to spot abuse by their employees.
And if the abuse is throughout the whole outfit, it should be shut down. Easier said than done of course, I know. If you're going to complain about what I just said, than why are you even posting here? Other than moral support, I don't see the point.

But, I must say that I'm not going to stop buying hamburg at Shop n' Save because it doesn't have an "Abuse Free" label on it. How is anyone supposed to know for sure anyway? There's always going to be a cow somewhere that's getting kicked in the gut because she kicked the milker off (AGAIN), just like a kid getting their ass warmed after already being told twice not to talk back.
Or an employee of these said places that are abuse free that are beating the animals behind closed doors, or blind eyes, because it gets them off.

It'll never be solved. You can't win. I can't win.

I know I was an abusive asshole at times to the cows when I was pissed off, and it doesn't make me right for sure. Yeah, I agree with what you're trying to do, but it's an awful hard task to accomplish especially to be posting here about it instead of somewhere that would be more effective.

I don't agree with all the videos I see out here on the subject either (half, if not most are brutal, but not all); I know I could go to my brother's farm right now, with my video camera, film the whole night and come home. When I'm home, I'll edit the shit out of it so every time he slaps/smacks a cow for stepping on his foot/kicking milker off/etc.., I'll make sure to repeat it a dozon times (include slow-motion of course) with sad music playing to make it seem worse than what it is. I'll also make sure I film the large amounts of cow shit in the gutter since he can't afford to get the gutter chain replaced this winter, resulting in having to shovel it out by hand. I'll switch back and forth from the manuer to the cow's eyes. Since cows always have fluid running out of their eyes, I'll make it look like they are crying, people will be more saddened. I'll also make sure I shoot inside the calf pen where there is always a good amount calf piss because the price of sawdust went up (AGAIN). Hmm, let's get his cold-hearted ass out of the buisness, eh?
My brother loves cows and especially doesn't want to lose the farm that's been in the family since 1860.

But let's buy free range, shall we, since that will lessen the amount of money we get for the beef we sell, complementing the amount of money we lose because the cost of the milk truck just went up seven dollars, adding another nail in the coffin since you only get paid for the amount of milk you produce - not the amount of time, blood, sweat, frustration and don't forget the money that goes into making that milk.


Listen, I know I'm coming off as a total cunt, but I agree with you, you've got a great heart and your doing this post for the right reasons, you're a good person - but I'm just not going to spend the extra cash just for the label that says that the animal I'm about to fry in my scratched-up frying pan (with butter, salt and pepper) was treated fairly and was asked out to all the school dances.

[Dudeman Thingface]

I think we should have them in free range, and kill them in the most humanitary possible way

The problem with that is that killing is inhumane in itself.

And isn't that belief that we should be "killing animals in the most humanitarian way possible" an act of Goddism that you suggested? Purely because of my above point.

I don't mean to sound harsh and I do agree with a lot of what you suggest about Goddism, it's just that this doesn't add up for me.

[Layabout]

Let uncle Lay tell you all a tale. I'm not saying this is true, but it might enlighten some people.

There is a planet somewhere in the galaxy, where there are aliens, called Blorgs. The Blorgs like to travel, drink and eat fine food. On another continent of the planet, there are the Blargs, who are ignorant fat fast food eating alcoholics. One thing is, their favourite food is humans. The Blargs decide to transport 10 million humans to their planet and shove them all in cages, forcing them to eat gruel and fornicate with each other to produce more humans. When they are fattened enough, they shoot them in the stomach, as the eyeballs and brains are a delicacy and need to be preserved so not to loose their juicyness and flavour. Now, the Blorgs, being refined gentlemanly-like beings, relocate not only the humans, but all their possesions and everything. They go through their daily lives. Ripeness is at 40 years old. At this time, the humans are cleanly slaughtered and packaged in their local supermarket. Because the Humans have lived stress free, their bodies have aged at the correct speed. The stressed intensivly farmed humans bodies have aged much quicker due to hardship and stress.

Which Human would you rather be?

Basically, put yourselves in the animals position.

Personally, if I had to live with the knowledge that at age 40 I was going to die, thanks to aliens who like to eat people, I'd live as much as possible and try to live as happy as possible.

And before all you vegetarians pop up and say aha! You don't have to eat meat. Sod you. I like meat. It's tasty.

[Nacho]

I think we should have them in free range, and kill them in the most humanitary possible way

The problem with that is that killing is inhumane in itself.

And isn't that belief that we should be "killing animals in the most humanitarian way possible" an act of Goddism that you suggested? Purely because of my above point.

I don't mean to sound harsh and I do agree with a lot of what you suggest about Goddism, it's just that this doesn't add up for me.

Two topics... I divide my reply in two

A) Dudeman, remember that I said that if you really care too much about animals, the perfect option is to turn vegetarian. EVEN with that, I *think* there is a much more humanitarian way of killing than what we do now (Intensive farmering-Inhumane transport-electroshock and the final slaughtering) The sollution could be "Free range-Good transport and (As Babar said) Guillotine.

B) About "Gooddism" (It' s Gooddism, from "being too good", not "Goddism" from "Believe to be Gods", to clarify) 

I am perefectly aware of how contradictorious my post is, first saying "We should do this, and this" and after saying that the society is becoming too naive. But I must clarify that I was not really meaning that we, or our society should become "harder". Read my post again and see that what I really think is that the goal is to become everyday less and less violent and more civilized. My point is that as a SOCIETY (Not as a human BEINGS) we should be READY for that kind of things. We should be able to be ready, as a society, to fight, to see the effects of the war, to pay a price if we want to get something.

As human beings, as individuals, I see perfectly normal that our minds tend fights against all that things.

[Meowster]

And I should also clarify this:

I am sad about this comment: <insert Snake's mouth here>

Well, what I was getting at there was simply that I wouldn't tuck them in, make sure they're not suicidal and read the damn things a bed time story before shutting off the lights at night.
Not that I don't care if they're getting the razor-edged whip every half hour because their lazy eye hasn't straightened out yet.

I think the solution to your problem would be for the employers to put up cameras to spot abuse by their employees.
And if the abuse is throughout the whole outfit, it should be shut down. Easier said than done of course, I know. If you're going to complain about what I just said, than why are you even posting here? Other than moral support, I don't see the point.

But, I must say that I'm not going to stop buying hamburg at Shop n' Save because it doesn't have an "Abuse Free" label on it. How is anyone supposed to know for sure anyway? There's always going to be a cow somewhere that's getting kicked in the gut because she kicked the milker off (AGAIN), just like a kid getting their ass warmed after already being told twice not to talk back.
Or an employee of these said places that are abuse free that are beating the animals behind closed doors, or blind eyes, because it gets them off.

It'll never be solved. You can't win. I can't win.

I know I was an abusive asshole at times to the cows when I was pissed off, and it doesn't make me right for sure. Yeah, I agree with what you're trying to do, but it's an awful hard task to accomplish especially to be posting here about it instead of somewhere that would be more effective.

I don't agree with all the videos I see out here on the subject either (half, if not most are brutal, but not all); I know I could go to my brother's farm right now, with my video camera, film the whole night and come home. When I'm home, I'll edit the shit out of it so every time he slaps/smacks a cow for stepping on his foot/kicking milker off/etc.., I'll make sure to repeat it a dozon times (include slow-motion of course) with sad music playing to make it seem worse than what it is. I'll also make sure I film the large amounts of cow shit in the gutter since he can't afford to get the gutter chain replaced this winter, resulting in having to shovel it out by hand. I'll switch back and forth from the manuer to the cow's eyes. Since cows always have fluid running out of their eyes, I'll make it look like they are crying, people will be more saddened. I'll also make sure I shoot inside the calf pen where there is always a good amount calf piss because the price of sawdust went up (AGAIN). Hmm, let's get his cold-hearted ass out of the buisness, eh?
My brother loves cows and especially doesn't want to lose the farm that's been in the family since 1860.

But let's buy free range, shall we, since that will lessen the amount of money we get for the beef we sell, complementing the amount of money we lose because the cost of the milk truck just went up seven dollars, adding another nail in the coffin since you only get paid for the amount of milk you produce - not the amount of time, blood, sweat, frustration and don't forget the money that goes into making that milk.


Listen, I know I'm coming off as a total cunt, but I agree with you, you've got a great heart and your doing this post for the right reasons, you're a good person - but I'm just not going to spend the extra cash just for the label that says that the animal I'm about to fry in my scratched-up frying pan (with butter, salt and pepper) was treated fairly and was asked out to all the school dances.

Snake I think you're misunderstanding the issue. I can't be 100% sure but from what you're saying, you seem to think I have beef with people hitting cows when herding them or occasionally getting frustrated at a pig that won't get into his pen. This is not the kind of abuse I'm talking about (in fact having lived on a farm I can agree with you that this is not actually abuse, I'm under no illusions about that).

It sounds like the farm you worked on was a good farm with decent practises, and that's the kind of farming I think should be promoted. Maybe where you're from the type of intensive farming I'm talking about is more rare. I could be wrong but if you live somewhere in middle America with loads of open land and pastures, it's possible that they ALL farm out on open ranches and all the animals are able to roam free range before they die. That would be awesome.

The type of farming I'm talking about is actually a very cruel intensive practise that is used in some places, and is very commonplace actually.

Here's a video about intensive farmed chicken Snake, which I think you should watch so you'll know what it is I'm talking about. I've raised free range chickens before and they had very low mortalities... the only chick that ever died was eaten by a fox! Bear in mind that the chickens in this video are all in a lot of pain because their fragile bone structure is unable to support their weight. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4vimEBT4plc&feature=related

It is no wonder that stress levels in the birds are high and that continuous use of anti-biotic is needed to keep the birds alive. Growth promoters are also sometimes fed to force the rate of growth. Very often the birds grow so fast that their legs cannot support their bodies. Large extractor fans ensure that ammonia levels are kept to bearable levels. Because much of the birds' time is spent sitting in cramped conditions, and as no fresh litter is given, the legs and breasts of many birds are burnt by the manure.

Here's some information that I beg you to read about battery farmed chicken eggs. The price between free range eggs and battery eggs is so small and affordable too... http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/egg-battery.html

Battery hens are debeaked with a hot machine blade once and often twice during their lives, typically at one day old and again at seven weeks old, because a young beak will often grow back. Debeaking causes severe, chronic pain and suffering researchers compare to human phantom limb and stump pain. Between the horn and bone of the beak is a think layer of highly sensitive tissue. The hot blade cuts through this sensitive tissue impairing the hen's ability to eat, drink, wipe her beak, and preen normally

Having read that Snake, can you honestly tell me you don't care about the lives of the chickens before their slaughter? I raised chickens and I raised them in a free range environment where they could grow to become inquisitive, happy, bold hens who clucked about happily, gave themselves dust baths and came squawking anytime they saw me with what they suspected might be treats. So seeing those hens in abject misery and completely unnatural conditions is sad for me, and I can't imagine how it could be less sad for anyone else... especially you, if you have (as I suspect) come from the same farming background as I have - where animals are raised outdoors in traditional ways


PS. Here's an amazing interview I just read with Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall who is a guy I have the utmost respect for:

Why is this such an important issue to you?
Chickens were the first ever livestock that I raised at River Cottage. They've been giving me eggs and meat all my life, and now I rear my own. And I think they're the front line of animal welfare in this country, and the way in which they're farmed is something to which the public are denied access.

Why was it necessary to set up your own intensive chicken farm?
It seems counterintuitive, doesn't it? Basically, we tried to get access to the industry but approaches were shut down pretty quickly. So the clear, if slightly warped logic, was that I would have to raise at least one crop of standard birds according to industry regulations in order to fully understand it. It was in a scaled down experiment - we raised 2,500 birds.

The fact that no intensive farmers wanted to allow you access tells its own story, doesn't it?
I think that's right, yes. At the heart of the problem is a bird which is now more or less a genetic freak. It takes half the time [less than 40 days] to raise a bird to market weight of two kilos than it did 30 years ago. And, in order to do that, you need very specialised conditions: [the chickens] are indoors and are completely without natural light so that they are constantly feeding.

It must have been emotionally difficult for you to operate in that kind of environment.
Definitely, at times it was very difficult. At times I was carried along by the sheer amount of work to do, and the fascination of it. There is a grim fascination in the simple business of how this is done. On one level, I had a grudging respect for people who run such farms, because they're so finely-tuned - it's such a delicate balance you have to get to produce these birds in this way.

What kind of reception did you get from the poultry farmers in the industry?
I talked to a number of them, mostly off the record, and they're keen to work in a less intensive industry, but they can't do it as long as the supermarkets and the fast food outlets are demanding such low prices from them. Given a choice, most farmers would prefer to de-intensify.

Aside from the ethics of this issue, is the quality of meat you get from an intensive bird considerably inferior?
Absolutely. On several occasions during the series we offer people free-range chicken, sometimes for the first time, and they said categorically that they could taste the difference.

What was the idea behind getting the local housing estate involved?
They were representative of the supermarket shoppers from Axminster. They're from the tough end of town and, a lot of them are on a tight budget. So for them it was really about getting them to see beyond the bargain two-for-a-fiver label, and getting to know the bird and getting to understand that all chicken they buy has had some kind of life.

Inevitably, there's a trade off for them, shopping on a budget. You do confront that issue, don't you?
We do. Of course, there are people on a very tight budget for whom that would be a real struggle. But at the same time, if the minimum welfare standards for indoor poultry were raised, those people could eat cheaper chicken with a clearer conscience.

[Trihan]

I just went and bought free-range eggs just for you, Meowster.

[Meowster]

Wow really??? Yay!!!! !
you made me smile and woop!

[Snake]

I watched the video and read the material. I do see more of the point and I have obviously missed some of it.
I don't know what to say, Yuffy. I mean, I'm all for good causes and the like, but I just don't know what to say.

You and AnimalAid are right, though, there's no need for these chickens to be raised so carelessly.
What are these activists aiming to do? Shut them down? Or just get people not to eat them?
What I don't understand, from the farm in the video, is why haven't they been warned about the sanitary aspect of the facility? In my eyes that's the only thing I'm worried about, you know, the chickens haivng to lay down in their own waste. I've been to a chicken farm that was almost a dead-ringer for the one in the video (except I wasn't there at midnight with my camera and nightvision) and everything was great, proper ventilation, sunlight (like being outside, sunlight), adequate food and water and fresh bedding.
But like I was saying before. There should always be a person (sometimes known as "The Inspector") that visits the farm monthly (and unexpectedly - that's how they getcha') to inspect the buisness and check if everything is sanitary and running occording to regulation. If not, you get a warning and a chance to clean up, if you don't, then you're shut down. Why are they still in buisness? All AnimalAid would have to do is show this inspector person the video and they'd definately get a talking to - or at least one would imagine.

[SSH]

I enjoy freeing animals from those terrible conditions by eating them

[Andail]

I enjoy freeing animals from those terrible conditions by eating them

So you buy them alive and bite them to death?

[monkey0506]

Haven't you ever been told that they taste more delicious if they were slaughtered by your own jaws?

[Stupot]

I just went and bought free-range eggs just for you, Meowster.

Wow really??? Yay!!!! !
you made me smile and woop!

Hehe... I saw him lobbing them at some cows earlier

[Meowster]

I watched the video and read the material. I do see more of the point and I have obviously missed some of it.
I don't know what to say, Yuffy. I mean, I'm all for good causes and the like, but I just don't know what to say.

You and AnimalAid are right, though, there's no need for these chickens to be raised so carelessly.
What are these activists aiming to do? Shut them down? Or just get people not to eat them?
What I don't understand, from the farm in the video, is why haven't they been warned about the sanitary aspect of the facility? In my eyes that's the only thing I'm worried about, you know, the chickens haivng to lay down in their own waste. I've been to a chicken farm that was almost a dead-ringer for the one in the video (except I wasn't there at midnight with my camera and nightvision) and everything was great, proper ventilation, sunlight (like being outside, sunlight), adequate food and water and fresh bedding.
But like I was saying before. There should always be a person (sometimes known as "The Inspector") that visits the farm monthly (and unexpectedly - that's how they getcha') to inspect the buisness and check if everything is sanitary and running occording to regulation. If not, you get a warning and a chance to clean up, if you don't, then you're shut down. Why are they still in buisness? All AnimalAid would have to do is show this inspector person the video and they'd definately get a talking to - or at least one would imagine.

See that's the problem... it's perfectly legal to treat chickens like this. That's what I can't believe! Nobody could come and shut these places down because they're entirely legal. Which is what AnimalAid are trying to do - get these condition outlawed. The WSPA are also a great organization, they help to protect animals from things such as long distance transportation before slaughter (which is another really unthinkably horrific torture for animals), and they do so by trying to get laws changed and regulations put in place to stop it from happening. Which I think is the right way to do it.

The intensive barn you're describing sounds a little better, but there are still practises like having the chickens 'debeaked', and the fact they use specially bred chickens that cannot support their own weight by the time they've reached a few weeks old - meaning they live most of their short life in pain. It these practises were outlawwed I think it'd make a big difference for the chicken's welfare and be a step in the right direction.

I believe Britain is planning to phase out the very worst kind of battery farms within the next few years, which sounds great on the surface.... But there are worries that the cheapest retailers (such as Asda and Tescos) or companies using chicken or eggs as ingredients in their products, will simply import cheap eggs etc from overseas where the animals are treated just as badly (potentially worse depending on where they're imported from). It's never easy is it?

I hope the government also plans to put regulations in place to prevent companies from being cheap-asses and just imported cheap, nastily produced meat and eggs from abroad, but I think whether they do or don't it's still important for consumers to take a stand against this kinda thing.

Obviously not all chickens are gonna be super epic free-range with hundreds of acres of lush land to peck about on, but I really want to see the conditions improved for those less lucky... no debeaking, no cages, freedom to perch and explore, no starving to force them to moult, no rapid-growing breeds of chicken that can't support their own weight.

After the general reactions to this thread I'm inclined to believe that it's far easier to go free-range/organic in the UK. In the UK something has to follow a strict set of rules to be have an "organic" label, and in terms of chickens this means that they have the best welfare standards possible... Any chicken labelled "organic" here, for instance, must be outdoor raised, slow-growing and fed decent healthy food without growth enhancers etc. We also have supermarkets that label things clearly (some don't, such as tescos I think), and lots of local butchers who source their meat from small local farms. I think we have it easy. It's easy for us to go into a supermarket and make a conscious decision because everything is clearly labelled, and I suspect very much that since it's so much more common here, that the price difference between free-range/organic isn't as extreme as it may be elsewhere. Maybe a solution would be to bring in regulations that require meat and eggs packaging to state the source and details such as the farming methods used, where the animal was raised and slaughtered (for instance I'd avoid even organic free range meat if it was raised in germany and slaughtered in the UK... it means the animal suffered an unnecessarily long and stressful journey before it's end when I could just buy the nice piece of locally produced beef next to it!). Maybe if people were readily given this information they'd naturally sway towards buying better produced meat? Hmm I don't know. I just made myself sad.

One day I'll live on a farm again and will have the plumpest, healthiest chickens you ever did see.

[Trihan]

I just went and bought free-range eggs just for you, Meowster.

Wow really??? Yay!!!! !
you made me smile and woop!

Hehe... I saw him lobbing them at some cows earlier

Lies!

[mkennedy]

If you want to convert people to vegetarianism then just show them what happens in those meat processing plants. I remember this episode of "60 Minutes" about the poultry business where they talked about how the chickens were allowed to soak in water to keep them cool or some such thing. This was bad because often times the intestines would get ripped open somewhere along the line causing feces to spill out into said water, the part that really stuck though was when the guy referred to the water as "fecal stew", let me tell you that put me off of chicken for a while. The packaging of other meat products probably isn't a whole let better.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Meowster, after reading your last few posts it seems to me that your only real issues with battery farming are the dubious/unhealthy practices used to rear so many chickens for slaughter in such a short space of time, which I think practically everyone has issue with, really.  I'm not really concerned at all with how 'happy' an animal I'm going to eat is or was (and if it's even possible), but it should not be forced to live in its own filth or be injected with hormones to speed its growth, either.  I'm rather surprised these places aren't hit with massive health violations, particularly in light of the medical evidence uncovered during China's round with Bird Flu.  They're certainly putting more than the animals' health at risk with these practices, and that's definitely an issue worth thinking about since we're eating these animals.