Please buy Free Range animal products!

[RickJ]

The argument has become directed towards our perceived moral right to eat animals, which is a whole different kettle of offal than debating whether an animal bred for consumption has the right to a pain-free existence before fulfilling it's destiny as somebody's dinner. I feel that it does.

I agree.  Except for organisms that practice Photosynthesis or Chemosynthesis, all living things consume other living things to survive.   This thread is not about the consumption or non-consumption of animals, it is about reducing the amount of suffering in the world.   Being kind to all creatures great and small is a measure of our civility and enlightenment.  As meowster says it's disappointing to learn that humanity is not as civil and enlightened as we would like to believe.

[Stupot]

Nobody's saying that they wouldn't prefer a world in which animals were treated better.  In an ideal world, of course the animals would not suffer.  But some of us aren't idealists, we're realists (or utilitarianists as KhrisMUC suggested).  What we're saying (or what I'm saying, at least) is that paying more for free-range doesn't make the blindest bit of difference...

Please don't make us feel guilty, that is unfair and intrusive and frankly none of your business.  If you have an issue, then please take it up with the farmers themselves.  Or wear a cloak and uncage some chickens in the middle of the night.  Please let the rest of us eat what we want.

[Meowster]

Nobody is stopping you from eating what you want.

Paying for free-range does make a difference.

1) it supports the farmers who produce free range products
2) it encourages your local supermarket to stock more free range produce and therefore supports free range farmers. In time this will mean more animals will have the opportunity of leading happier lives before slaughter.

Why do you think it wouldn't make a difference to buy free range?

As for feeling guilty, stop to think about what you're saying. Do you feel so defensive and angry and provoked when people make you aware of suffering in third world countries? Of poorly paid indian children working in squalid and dangerous conditions to make clothes that people like us wear? Would you rather not be aware of these things so that you can feel less guilty about not trying to help or avoiding products made by children working in sweatshops? If you would rather not be aware of these things and undertake in intelligent discussion about it then you can stop reading this thread, stop reading the news, etc. Eat what you want, but be aware of the suffering you're supporting by choosing certain products. And if that makes you feel guilty, perhaps the solution is that you should choose free range products instead.

[Aljoho]

Stupot: I know it wasn't particularly my reply that you were referring to but for those who do care (whether or not you do is your choice and i shan't intrude) if enough people band together and refuse to support it, farmers will realize that they can no longer get away it because there is no money to be had (it happens all the time with other things, such as recently there was a whole issue (in Britain) about how ridiculously priced refreshments in cinemas -popcorn, coke etc - are, and because it was announced so heavily all over the place and your average joe's decided to oppose the cinemas had no choice but to lower prices because the consumer said so.)

Anyway, like I said at the end of the day it is your business whether you support or oppose it, but I just wanted to say that change is possible if enough people want it.

[Trihan]

While I can see the point of the people who are pushing for more people to eat free-range products, the fact of the matter is this.

Given the sheer population of earth, and the percentage of that population who regularly eat meat, it's pretty much certain that you will -never- convince enough of them to eat free-range to make a significant dent in the profit margin of those farmers who don't utilise such practices.

Like someone else said, of course I wish I could live in a world where every single animal that was bred for the sole purpose of eventually becoming food was treated humanely until the end of its days, but here's the thing. I don't. And neither do you.

You might say that this attitude is -why- we have this situation in the first place, but let's be perfectly honest here. There are just too many people supporting and advocating things the way they are right now for even a large group of people to make a difference.

[i stole your car]

I kind of stopped reading the thread about halfway down the first page. I'm a vegetarian so after reading the discussion on whether it's better or worse to buy free range meat, all I can really say is that whether you do or don't buy free-range, you still disgust me.

Thanks

[Trihan]

I'm sorry "i stole your car" but your argument irks me on a fundamental level.

None of us are in any way slamming vegetarians for what they choose to eat (or not to eat). Why are you doing it to us?

Do you actually realise how many field mice and other assorted animals are painfully slaughtered all the time when farmers are collecting all of the things you eat?

And they're not even going to be used for something useful (like food). They just die, caught in the blades of some harvester or other.

I'm not advocating the cruelty that some farmers display towards their slaughter-bound animals, but at the end of the day they're going to end up wrapped in clingfilm in the supermarket whether I personally eat them or not. And when their lives are over it isn't going to matter to -them- what conditions they lived in. Why should it matter to me?

[ManicMatt]

Well that's defeatism right there Trihan! I think if Meowster convinced just one person on this thread to buy free range, then it was worth it. However I skip read most of this debate.

As for me, I don't even wear leather, never mind eat meat.

"I stole your car" - Haha, that made me smile!

[i stole your car]

I'm sorry "i stole your car" but your argument irks me on a fundamental level.

None of us are in any way slamming vegetarians for what they choose to eat (or not to eat). Why are you doing it to us?

Do you actually realise how many field mice and other assorted animals are painfully slaughtered all the time when farmers are collecting all of the things you eat?

And they're not even going to be used for something useful (like food). They just die, caught in the blades of some harvester or other.

I'm not advocating the cruelty that some farmers display towards their slaughter-bound animals, but at the end of the day they're going to end up wrapped in clingfilm in the supermarket whether I personally eat them or not. And when their lives are over it isn't going to matter to -them- what conditions they lived in. Why should it matter to me?

Actually I was making an ignorant post in response to the long list of ignorant posts that have already been posted so thanks for picking up on that.

[Trihan]

Oh, sorry. Yeah, I totally didn't pick up on that.

ManicMatt: I disagree that it's defeatism. Let's say that Meowster has convinced one person reading this thread to eat free-range products instead. They go to the supermarket and buy free-range, the other product they would have bought remains on the shelf.

Somebody else comes along and buys it instead.

The thing is, when I buy meat from the store that animal is -already dead-. Whatever kind of life it lived, it's now irrelevant as it isn't living it any more.

[i stole your car]

While I can see the point of the people who are pushing for more people to eat free-range products, the fact of the matter is this.

Given the sheer population of earth, and the percentage of that population who regularly eat meat, it's pretty much certain that you will -never- convince enough of them to eat free-range to make a significant dent in the profit margin of those farmers who don't utilise such practices.

Like someone else said, of course I wish I could live in a world where every single animal that was bred for the sole purpose of eventually becoming food was treated humanely until the end of its days, but here's the thing. I don't. And neither do you.

You might say that this attitude is -why- we have this situation in the first place, but let's be perfectly honest here. There are just too many people supporting and advocating things the way they are right now for even a large group of people to make a difference.

You are thinking about this on a much larger scale than you should be. You should be thinking about the way YOU feel about the subject and not about what the rest of the world thinks. It's true that just because me and other vegetarians have said FUCK YOU MASS PRODUCTION  *shakes fist* they're not going to stop slaughtering animals to pack the shelves of your nearest supermarket, but I can at least feel good about myself for holding on to what I believe in. It's such a cop-out attitude to say things like "heh they're going to kill the animals anyway" or "oh well it'll never be global." and it MIGHT never be global but the amount of vegetarians and people demanding free range products is on a massive rise so maybe not in our life time but in the future maybe.

I don't know if you've ever been in a slaughterhouse or really thought about the amount of animals that have to be killed DAILY to stock the shelves of just ONE supermarket, let alone supermarkets all over the world but it's such a stupid amount of animals to be killed just to feed the insensitive people who say "well i like meat" because people don't HAVE to eat meat, there's alternatives out there, so why does this happen? This isn't even touching on the subjects of battery farming and other living conditions for animals, the way they are raised and slaughtered or even the working conditions of people who themselves (human beings) work in these slaughter houses or the fact that most people are desensitized about the food they eat because it's so neatly processed and packaged and delivered to them at their convenience. The number of times I've seen people blanch at the thought of having to kill and eat their own food is phenomenal so when you're put in that position maybe you'd have a different outlook.

So yeah a large amount of mice and field animals might get killed during the process of growing and collecting vegetables for me to eat but I bet it's nowhere near the amount that are killed to feed the population of earth that just don't give a shit. At least I believe in something and am trying to take the best steps I can to hold up to that.

EDIT: I'll also just follow this up, that I really don't care if you personally eat meat. I don't want to lay on a guilt trip or even try and convince anybody else to become vegetarian because I do what I feel is right and I think you will do the same thing, but as opinionated as it may be my belief is that what you are doing is unnecessary and some of the opinions you've expressed are pretty ignorant. The same way you might think some of my opinions are pretty ignorant.

[Stupot]

@Meowster: I'm very aware of all the things you mentioned.  It doesn't make me angry to be made aware of these things, but it does make me angry when I'm called "selfish" because of my eating habits.  And yes, part of me does care about all these horrible realities.  But if a am feeling charitable, I'd rather put my hard earned cash towards something like starving children,  or Cancer reasearch, or even asthma.  Everyone is individual, and I just happen to rate the welfare of chickens as slightly less important than these things... I haven't got enough money to be conscience-free in every aspect of my life.

All I'm saying is that you're aiming your guilt trips at the wrong people.  

Yes, if enough people buy free-range eggs then this certainly will encourage supemarkets to stock more of them... because they know they have to follow the trends to make the most money.  Like when the whole 'organic' fad happened a couple of years ago, all of a sudden EVERYTHING was organic, and the supermarkets were laughing all the way to the bank.

What you should realise (and it's been mentioned by someone else earlier) is that just coz something on the shelf says 'free-range' it doesn't mean the animal didn't suffer... the term 'free-range' is a technicality rather than a symbol of happy hens.

[ManicMatt]

Not really Trihan, if more and more people bought the free range meat, and less bought the normal stuff, then the shops would want more stock of the free range, and less of the standard meat. It's called Supply and Demand.

[Trihan]

Do you really see that happening, though?

I don't think any of your opinions are ignorant, i stole your car. They are your opinions and you are just as entitled to them as I am to mine.

As insensitive as it might sound, I just can't bring myself to be enraged over this issue because I just eat the meat. In most cases I have no idea where it came from, and I probably couldn't tell the difference between free-range or battery.

And just to give a bit of insight on my standpoint, I quite literally am unable to eat most vegetables. They make me dry heave and I feel like I'm about to be sick. It's a sad state of affairs, and I wish things were different, but meat is more or less the only thing I can eat without being on the verge of puking. It's not really a choice for me.

[LimpingFish]

Is the expense really an issue? Frankly, I wouldn't buy cheap meat for a whole other list of reasons. Steroids, feed quality, etc. How expensive is going free-range?

The ineffectiveness of the whole 1 man = 1 vote approach doesn't really matter to me. It's making that conscious decision that should matter, regardless of it effecting the situation on a larger scale. It's nice to think you might have helped a chicken out of a tight spot. And maybe you did.

Like I said earlier, I'm no militant activist. I rarely stop to think about the animal on my plate in any meaningful way, and I'm simply too comfortable to bother doing more than looking for "free-range" on the label. I can live with the hypocrisy.

Not buying free-range because doing so will deprive you of one of life's other luxuries is just being human. I don't actively give money to charities either (unless it's some product that I buy that the proceeds from happen to be going to charity. But that's different). It doesn't keep me awake at night.

It's just a case of admitting you can't be bothered. I know I largely can't.

[Sam.]

I buy free range/organic as far as possible, eggs are easy and meat is too.

It's just a question of it tasting better for me. The difference between free range eggs and factory eggs is about 40p which is tolerable, and meat isn't that much different.

On a student budget it does make a difference, when your total shopping is normally 20 pounds. Free range/organic can put that up to 30. I suppose if i had a salary, and was buying more food and had the money for better stuff, the difference between 50 and 60 doesn't seem that much. I suppose it's a question of perspective.

One day I want my own chickens.

[Meowster]

@Meowster: I'm very aware of all the things you mentioned.  It doesn't make me angry to be made aware of these things, but it does make me angry when I'm called "selfish" because of my eating habits.  And yes, part of me does care about all these horrible realities.  But if a am feeling charitable, I'd rather put my hard earned cash towards something like starving children,  or Cancer reasearch, or even asthma.  Everyone is individual, and I just happen to rate the welfare of chickens as slightly less important than these things... I haven't got enough money to be conscience-free in every aspect of my life.

All I'm saying is that you're aiming your guilt trips at the wrong people.  

Yes, if enough people buy free-range eggs then this certainly will encourage supemarkets to stock more of them... because they know they have to follow the trends to make the most money.  Like when the whole 'organic' fad happened a couple of years ago, all of a sudden EVERYTHING was organic, and the supermarkets were laughing all the way to the bank.

What you should realise (and it's been mentioned by someone else earlier) is that just coz something on the shelf says 'free-range' it doesn't mean the animal didn't suffer... the term 'free-range' is a technicality rather than a symbol of happy hens.

1. The "selfish" remark was aimed at people who openly admitted they can't be bothered to buy free range even if they can afford it, which may or may not have been what you originally said - I'm not going to go back and look at your post. That is the definition of selfish. If a person can't afford it or doesn't have access to it somehow, that's a reasonable excuse I suppose but saying you can't be bothered, you don't care what happened to the animal before your plate etc... this is an undeniably selfish attitude. So I can't remember if that's what you said, if not then the selfish remark wasn't aimed at you.

2. I wish people would stop comparing animal welfares to diet fads. It's not a 'fad'. It may be something that in recent times has gained more exposure and concern as certain intensive farming techniques have come to public attention, but that's only a good thing. That doesn't make it a fad. Concern about the wellbeing of living creatures that can feel pain, fear etc is not a 'fad'.

3. I realise that just because it says free-range doesn't mean it's from animals that have received the kind of treatment I personally would give them. That's not even vaguely an excuse for not buying free range meat though is it? Maybe where you're from it's different, but here in the UK most packaging on meat or eggs will give a fair amount of information on the way in which the animals are kept (whether they are outdoor/indoor reared, RSPCA or Freedom Food approved etc). This is far preferable, I'm sure you'll agree, to buying Tesco Value Chicken Breasts which you know for sure have led terrible lives before their death. You can also ask for information about various local farms from your local butchers (again I'm not sure how easy this is in the US or elsewhere).

Zooty - Oh man I want my own chickens again one day. Having animals when I was growing up was the best thing. Ducks and chickens ftw!

[Sam.]

My girlfriend wants ducks, but I think they'd fly away cause I wouldn't want to clip them. Plus duck is tasty.

[Trihan]

I pretty much just go to Tesco and pick up a packet of meat. It doesn't say on the packet how the animal was treated prior to being slaughtered and processed. The packet was still going to be there, and someone was still going to buy it if I didn't. (That's when I actually buy it, I don't often buy my own food anyway, my housemate does most of the shopping)

[ThreeOhFour]

My boss has hundreds of chooks. And some guinea fowl. And some peacocks. My grandparents who are just down the hill have chooks, and the guy down the road has chooks and ducks and guinea fowl. We never buy eggs  .

They are all free range. So free range that my boss couldn't find one of his pea hens for two weeks 

We had chooks until an evil cat found a hole in the wire and killed them all  :'(