Please buy Free Range animal products!

[Babar]

I'm not a biologist or anything, but if no blood is going to the brain, they can't be feeling any pain, right?

However, as Ben said, it is probably a more gruesome looking way of killing animals. Still, if people cared more about the executionee than the people watching, we'd still be using the guillotine rather than the electric chair/gas chamber (I don't know about the lethal injection).

[monkey0506]

I've been told that your head can survive after being detached from your body for something like 3 minutes...

[Meowster]

Oh, and I really do detest making serious points in arguments when I am quite sure that nobody's opinion is going to be swayed by my point, but anyone who comes in here citing the money reason makes me shake my head. Posting on here means you have access to a computer and internet, which costs money. Most of you have televisions, telephones and that sort of thing. Saying that you really *do* care about animal's feelings, but can't/won't afford to do so is basically saying that you care more about having luxury items than you do about the wellbeing of another living creature, which is a very sad thing to say in my opinion.

[EDIT]
Man, did I really write that much crap? How embarrassing 

Let me summarise four paragraphs of absolute toilet in 3 concise sentences:
Some people, myself included do live on a budget. I personally don't have a hell of a lot in the way of luxuries and those I do have are nearly always hand-me-downs or gifts. I have to try to budget in everything I do and this includes my choice in meat.

I've been unemployed for four months since being made redundant, I have very little money indeed. In fact I have none, not enough to pay my rent myself this month. I wasn't even earning much when I was employed, and I live in one of the priciest locations in England.

I still haven't bought a single piece of non free-range meat. Sure, I've bought less meat because I can't afford it as much, but I've also bought less luxuries such as wine, or nice toilet tissue instead of cheap stuff. I'm living on a budget, both me and my partner were made redundant at the same time so we have no income at all except our savings. Still we've made sure that we either choose free range, or we don't choose meat at all. And my partner loves meat.

And when I was growing up I lived on hand-me-downs too mate.

Trihan

If more people buy free-range, do you really think the farmers are going to have a change of heart and stop intensive farming altogether? As long as there's demand for it they'll continue to supply, in exactly the same way they've been supplying. And what's to stop them from -saying- they're free-range just so that they won't lose business? (I don't know much about the farming industry, maybe this would be harder than I think)

So okay, you've convinced more people to eat free-range, and given a few animals a better quality of life before they're slaughtered and processed for food.

It's not about having a 'change of heart'. Of course they won't, but if supply and demand is making the demand for free-range higher, this will support the free-range farmers or encourage others to go free-range. Then as you say - more animals will have a better quality of life before they're slaughtered. Don't you think this is worthwhile?

As for what the farmers think... bah! Some kind of intensive chicken farming was outlawed in Britain recently, or is planning to be outphased. Not sure of the details but it was on the news a while back, and I remember some chicken farmer being interviewed. The news showed the chickens in appalling conditions, really really disgusting... you wouldn't eat one if you saw one, honestly, for fear of catching some kind of disease. And the farmer was interviewed... he made up some absolute bullcrap about how the chickens didn't mind it. I can't remember his exact wording but I was watching the TV with a friend and we were both astounded at how brilliantly he was lying to himself. I mean even the hardest hearted person couldn't have been angered or upset at seeing those chickens.

In other news - sorry I got so nettled in the first half of the thread, I really wasn't expecting everyone to have what I consider to be such a disappointing viewpoint. I'm glad we're all discussing intelligently now, it makes for an awesome thread... even if I now hate half of you for your views

DISCLAIMER: The last bit was a joke! I don't hate anyone! It was a joke because there's been so much heated debate! Yay! It was irony? Get it? I am actually really enjoying having an intelligent debate where people aren't flaming each other! I guess I shouldn't have expected the kind of people who buy intensively farmed meat to get irony though. Whoa it was an ironic joke again, get it? ! I'm not being serious.

[Goldmund]

even if I now hate half of you for your views

I'm afraid that you're working against your own cause.

Authors of such tirades always come off as a very self-righteous, judgemental person, quick to preach and quick to force your values on people. You think you're better than people who eat regular meat.
It's quite irritating, so people might start buying "intensive farmed", or whatever, food, just in spite.
I'm quite a sensitive fellow, yet your sermons made me crave a hamburger!

[Nacho]

Thank you Blazej.

[Nikolas]

EDIT: already mentioned right above... Can't say I enjoy judgemental people too much...

[LimpingFish]

I want to hear more about these pigs that can eat a man whole.

They sound quite formidable and worthy of some sort of organized Man vs Pig death-match.

[Babar]

Have you not seen/read Hannibal?

Admittedly, those were specially bred pigs. And obviously, Hannibal won.

[Meowster]

even if I now hate half of you for your views

I'm afraid that you're working against your own cause.

Authors of such tirades always come off as a very self-righteous, judgemental person, quick to preach and quick to force your values on people. You think you're better than people who eat regular meat.
It's quite irritating, so people might start buying "intensive farmed", or whatever, food, just in spite.
I'm quite a sensitive fellow, yet your sermons made me crave a hamburger!

Whoa, check it out, there was a winky face there. Did you miss the winky face? It was a joke...

"You think you're better than people who eat regular meat"? Nice of you to try and second guess what I am thinking, but I'm afraid telling other people what you think they're thinking is adding nothing to the conversation...

"It's quite irritating, so people might start buying "intensive farmed", or whatever, food, just in spite. " -  Jeez Goldmund, you seem very upset. You think this thread is soley crafted simply to upset you. You also think that you should go make yourself a cup of tea and calm down for a while. You think perhaps you should reconsider your post, then try posting again when you have something valuable to add to the discussion. You think I'm really attractive and cool. You think you should probably send me money, but then you change your mind and think, no, instead you'll spend that money on buying free range meat from now on. You feel pleased with yourself for coming up with this idea.

You also realise that of course when people feel strongly about something they're going to be eager to discuss it with others, and that is all part of people having their own opinion and discussing it on the internet. You understand that when people discuss things that they have a lot of belief in, and the arguments become heated, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are self-righteous and judgemental. You feel a bit silly about your post now.

You apologise to me and I accept your apology.

[monkey0506]

Geeze guys, do we really have to bring back the fighting on the Internet macro?

Seriousnesslessly though you guys, this is actually a very interesting thread. Clearly different people have their own opinions on these matters, some of us very strong opinions, some of us a bit more "on the fence," but simply because we don't see eye-to-eye on this doesn't mean we have to take it personally. That goes for both sides, including myself.

Although Yufster has made it clear that she feels very strongly that anyone who's going to eat meat should purchase only free range products, it doesn't give anyone who disagrees with her the right to bash her opinion. Conversely, it doesn't give Yufster the right to bash anyone who doesn't agree with her.

Ultimately, the point I'm getting at is this.

[rbaleksandar]

This video will make you very unhappy.  I love eating meat, but this vid brings a tear to my eye.  :'( :'( :'( :'(

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-513747926833909134

Well, that SHIT I also said - don't ask where your food comes from. And I can never be able to eat an animal I've taking care for for so long. Don't understand how people cultivate animals (chicken, pigs, lambs etc) and after a while they slaughter them with the same hands they have fed them with. 

[Dudeman Thingface]

Don't understand how people cultivate animals (chicken, pigs, lambs etc) and after a while they slaughter them with the same hands they have fed them with. 

I'll give you three good reasons:

Money, commerce and currency

[monkey0506]

Don't understand how people cultivate animals (chicken, pigs, lambs etc) and after a while they slaughter them with the same hands they have fed them with. 

It's simple, they're not pets. And if you honestly can't understand that, then I fully expect you to either be a complete vegetarian or only eat intensively farmed meat.

Raising your own animals at the very least means you know that (pending how you treated them of course) your animals lead good and full lives before going to the dinner table. It means that you know they were killed humanely. And it also means that they taste super delicious!

I can understand how someone raised in a different situation would have a different viewpoint on this than what I do. It's not much, but I was raised on 4 acres of land. And I know what goes into raising these animals. And from the time I was very, very young I was taught that farm animals are not the same thing as pets.

It all comes down to your background though. Seriously, I doubt anyone here would look at Fido (or whatever you people name your dogs) and say that he looks about ready to be cooked up. But in the Philippines people eat dogs every single day. To them it's a matter of survival, but ultimately that's the reason why pigs and chickens and cows were domesticated in the first place.

[deltoran]

i can tell you one, im not gona eat a sea kitten, there F'ed up
http://www.peta.org/sea_kittens/

and any the animals gona die in the end anyway. :o

[rbaleksandar]

Don't understand how people cultivate animals (chicken, pigs, lambs etc) and after a while they slaughter them with the same hands they have fed them with. 

It's simple, they're not pets. And if you honestly can't understand that, then I fully expect you to either be a complete vegetarian or only eat intensively farmed meat.

  I eat vegetables - yes. But I love meat too What I am saying is if I know the source of my steak, I can't swallow it, because it pops into my mind the image of this same creature walking and mooing for example...Can't bear the thought of that

btw In some countries like Thiland dogs are like lamb steaks by us...A real hot DOG. I've seen even (in documentaries) how they tie the dog in a small bag and start beating the hell out of him (that is until it drops dead) just to make its meat more tender...Well, what's that? No matter what animal it is, if it had eaten out of my hand, I can't eat it.

[Nacho]

I'm not a biologist or anything, but if no blood is going to the brain, they can't be feeling any pain, right?

Hey Babar, are you serious? What does have to see blood irrigation with the nervous system? Of course you can feelpain if there is no blood arriving to the brain. Another thing is falling unconscious, like we see in the Chinese movies, where the hero knocks down the bad guys by clamping the carotis. I am not sure about if that maneuver is so effective in real life as we see in HongKongWood... BTW, I can ensure you that if we cut the bloodstream by cutting the carotis (Halal System, if I am correct) might not be the worst way to kill, but can' t be nice, either.

(To clarify: I am not criticising the Halal ceremony... Basically I think we (Europe, America, Western counties...) do the same, but electroshocking the animal first so it can' t offer resistance to the cut... An electroshock that has been proved to be uneffective for make the animal faint, so, a cruel way to kill, quite worst than Halal, IMO...)

Now... My opinion about the subject: Allow me to develope it.

A) I don' t like seeing live animals suffering (Well... I might want to see some human beings suffering, but not animals), I think we should have them in free range, and kill them in the most humanitary possible way, including a correct way of transport to the slaughterhouse. That means that we should develope a way to kill them fast and with no pain. I would like my government to spent more money on advertising and promoting free range animal products, or even incentivate it with fiscal benefits and things like that... I would (I will) pay the extra money for that kind of meat.

B) I perfectly understand the "I am too poor to care for that stupidity. I want cheap meat" argument. I am nobody to go against that argument. "Normal meat" should be available for those who doesn' t want/can' t have "free range animal products". Free market. I would pay the extra for a humanitary way to farm animals. I wouldn't force anybody to do the same.

C) The "Real thing" to do if you reach certain degree of implication into "animal care" is to become vegetarian. (There are a lot of things to discuss into that, to be honest... There are dozens of animal species that wouldn't exist without human farming, because they basically are "evolutive losers", such as chickens or minks... But it' s okay, that should go to another thread).

D) Even with what I said before... Where are we going? There is a stream of "Gooddism" in the western contries that freak me out. Don' t missunderstand me. I think that these things make us what we are and differenciate us from another cultures, but... Aren't we going to far away? 60 years ago 8,000 guys died in a 5,000 yeards beach in one day for getting a military objective. Nowadays we complain because the same amount of ("our") people died in 5 years of conflict in Iraq. One day. 1,825 days. Compare.

But that' s not the only thing... We can not stand seeing our guys in black plastic bags. We can't see "their guys" either. If the army finds a column of Republican Guard fleding from Kuwait to Bassora and they kill them all, if a reporter comes there and takes photos, the whole campaign is doomed because "Public opinion can stand the massacre" (That happened in the Desert Storm... Because of that "Gooddism" we had to come back some years after...)

Same happens with civilian victims. "We" did the Dresde thing to give a lesson to the bad guys, 30,000 people died in one night. Now, a US missile loses a fin, it falls into the innadecuate place, kills three sheppards, and we organise a national movement to stop the war. 30,000 against 3.

Same with prisoners. I remember what "the bad guys" did to the "good guys" in Auschwitz, Kwai river or Hanoi Hilton. Now, if an idiot female GI gets photoshooted while doing the idiot with a naked prisioner, then "We must stop this, we are evil"

"Bad guys" call "us" the "paper tiger";

They are not ready to see their soldiers in black plastic bags, they have fear to attack us if we mix into civilians, they won't bomb us if they have doubts, if you get captured they will treat you fine... They don' t have what is needed to win this war. We will win"

Any movement made by the "Good guys" that undermines that "image" of "paper tiger" has proven to be shocking to the enemy, such as attacks to South Lebanon or Gaza strips without taking care of the international  reaction, or publishing the images of the navigations of Abu Ghraib. Hizbulá was shocked and made no further movement after the Israeli campaign in South Lebanon last year. Same happened in the Hamas HQ with the campaing happening this very moments. The level of attacks of the insurgency to american soldiers decreased dramatically after the photos of (the person I consider, IMHO, a whole idiot) Lynndie England were published. The "bad guys" thought "Wow! They can attack without previous warning, without taking into consideration what the people thinks" or "Wow... a 1,50 m. bitch is able, in that army, to do that to our soldiers... We must be carefulll with that people"

What I mean is not that "what we did" in the past (The WWII, Vietnam...) was ok. And this is very important: I don' t mean that what I mentioned we do today (Lebanon campaign, Guantanamo, Gaza strip campaign, Abu Ghraib) is ok either. (Actually, I think it's bad, and I wish we didn' t had to do it...) But... What I mean is that we (Western country societies) were able to UNDERSTAND it, and now we CAN'T.

We are becoming pussies.

And all this "free range" animals thing is another step into that "Gooddism" direction that freaks me out.

As a society. Because as an individual, I am totally into that pussy state I criticised before. And I am proud of it. 

[Andail]

Any movement made by the "Good guys" that undermines that "image" of "paper tiger" has proven to be shocking to the enemy, such as attacks to South Lebanon or Gaza strips without taking care of the international  reaction, or publishing the images of the navigations of Abu Ghraib. Hizbulá was shocked and made no further movement after the Israeli campaign in South Lebanon last year. Same happened in the Hamas HQ with the campaing happening this very moments. The level of attacks of the insurgency to american soldiers decreased dramatically after the photos of (the person I consider, IMHO, a whole idiot) Lynndie England were published. The "bad guys" thought "Wow! They can attack without previous warning, without taking into consideration what the people thinks" or "Wow... a 1,50 m. bitch is able, in that army, to do that to our soldiers... We must be carefulll with that people"

To me this passage seems very confused. The "wow...etc" argument seems extra contrived.
I'm disinclined to believe that those photos had any positive effects whatsoever, but instead increased the anti-americanism with some thousand percent. As with the American presence in middle-east in general, I'm quite sure they contributed to an increase in fundamentalism and support for terrorists.

Suicide-bombers don't really get cautious or affraid; they get angry and then they die.

We are becoming pussies.

I think we're becoming civilized.

[Nacho]

As said, I do not endorse that we should do what I mentioned in that passage. I see nothing in your post meaning that you think that I think that, so, thank you very very very much. I was quite scared about the first reply to my post.



Second: That you labelled as the "wow!" argument is real. It was something that was rolling into the different secret services around the world, and the effect it had on the insurgence and their mentality is something that was recorded and measured that days. The only thing I can tell to you about that subject is that you must trust me (Or at least, "trust my world that I read it in reliable sources... As international press is nowadays we can't  assume anything written is real..) I can't  find links to that info, but the sources were quite reliable. Anyway, don' t focus in Abu Ghraib, or the US. Focus in Israel. The effects of what they do when they decide not to care about the public opinion are clear and we can still be witnesses of them. No more attacks from Hizbula since the last campaign, one year ago.

We are becomed civilized. Yes. And as I said, I think that this is preciselly what differenciate us from other cultures.

And I like it, I mentioned it as well...

But my point was not if we must become civilized or not. I think everybody with brain should agree that the more civilized, the better. My point is that if it' s good that we reach a point were we are not able to admitt, as a civilization, the possibilty of evil, pain and suffering in the world. My point is that if it' s good that we become that civilized that we become naive, and totally unable to act when the bad moments arrive.

[Snake]

Just having a bit of fun here:

First of all, you have to choose whether or not you even believe that humans can suffer this thing called 'mental anguish'.  We know from scientific (and unscientific) tests that they feel pain and have an instinctual fight or flight response to it, but since humans are not higher thinking, sentient beings, I do not believe they suffer 'mental anguish'.  I think the abundance of shows by Disney and others have, over time, given some zombies a skewed perspective of mankind, making us feel guilty when we see "Little Tommy"  slaughtered, and I refuse to feel guilty or selfish or any other nonsense because I like human flesh.  It tastes wonderful!

On a serious note, I saw absolutely nothing wrong with any of those pictures you showed us, Yuffy, except for the one where the pigs are on the cement floor.

A bit of information on Cows
I've worked on a dairy farm for about seven and a half years. Within that time I had been to other farms that are far better off than my brother's farm (where I worked). The cow will definately get used to the conditions, no matter where they are raised (outside, tie-up barn, free-stall, etc...).
Cows are outside pretty much all day anyway, given decent weather conditions. Then when it's time for milking, cows are driven inside either by the sound of a tractor/skidsteer or a group of people to get them in the barn. When in the barn a button is pressed and they are then forced to proceed forward by an electric gate, which gives them direction. After a few zaps to the ass they learn the routine rather quickly (I've been zapped quite a few times and it doesn't hurt, startles more than anything).

PAUSE: If you think the electric gate is cruel, then try standing there and talking to the cow in a sweet little voice (because they're so fucking cute!), "Come on, sweetie, you can do it, go on, girl, yes you're so cute, yes you are..." and see how far that'll get you.

Nowhere. Aint gonna happen.
Unless you raise like one or two cows and raise them like you would a pet, but that's a whole different story and discussion. Nobody has the patience, and more importantly, the time to treat their whole herd as pets. So every one of your cows with a possible exception here and there will be instinctively skiddish around humans, even cute little kids.
And I don't care if your little girl won a cute contest.

UNPAUSE:
The path narrows forcing them into rows, and from there they get into their stalls (on their own) to be milked (the stalls are similar to the picture you provided). The cows are kept in that position only to be milked and then they are released back outside. The average cow takes about 5 to 8 minutes to milk from start to finish - and also depending on the breed of cow. In this case, I'm talking Holsteins.
Cows can be very cute, but I hate the ignorant motherfuckers. They are not desirable to work with, in numbers I mean, even working with 80 to 90 sucks.


Just as long as there's no senseless and excessive beating, I don't really give a shit about each individual cow's quality of life.

[Trihan]

The thing is, we tend not to think of cows individually. I mean, when was the last time you were driving past a field and thought to yourself "Oh hey! There's a cow." I bet you thought "Oh hey! A herd of cows."