I can just see BOYD go ahead and post something like "Well, boo-hoo! The pope died! Gee, do we have to make a thread everytime some famous person dies? If the guy who sells me women's underwear died, would I post a thread about it?"
:P
So yeah, it's kinda weird hearing about the pope dying. This will be the first time in most (if not all) of our lifetimes that we'll have another pope than what we were brought up with (for the Christian folk). I've long since abandoned religion, so it doesn't affect me that much, but I just want to hear what all of you think about this. It's a big thing.
I'm sure it's a good thing, since he didn't seem to enjoy himself that much. :-\
But, I still feel sorry for the people who followed him, since they must be pretty broken by now.
I too abandoned religion many moons ago but I do go to a Catholic School. Which means that I won't have to do much work on Monday.
I'm sure those who follow him are upset, but I think they should be glad that he is at least not in pain anymore. And, from what I'm lead to believe, in Heaven.
I think it was all for the best, he was in a lot of pain and his health has been declining, at least the pain is gone and that a new, younger pope can be brought about.
The only thing that i'm thinking about, what do we do when someone says "is the pope polish"?
I feel very weird... I did not believe in God, but lately I am realising that the fact that if God exists or not is something that really doesn't care, because the Faith moves so much things that the figure of God is almost despicable.
In my old "atheist" spirit, I was looking forward to see the death of this Pope because I've never seen a "Cónclave" in 26 years... He was 84 y.o. I was not very disposed to feel sorrow about him.
But I am suprised because I actually feel sorrow. He was an old man everyone has seen many times... It's impossible (for me) not to feel sad about that person, no matter who he was. I have seen him probably more time (in TV) than some of my relatives (in "live")!
I feel weird. Sad... very sad, if you ask...
Quote from: magintz on Sat 02/04/2005 23:29:41
what do we do when someone says "is the pope polish"?
Um, "Yes".....right?
No-one likes a smart-ass
I do! (http://www.tpww.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif)
I don't know... it just feels weird coming back from the grocery store, sitting down on the couch to relax and then being surprised by a live newscast about the Pope's death. It gives me a strange "September eleven" vibe... seeing all these people gathering and praying... I don't know, it's just weird.
I didn't see that one coming.
Quote from: magintz
The only thing that i'm thinking about, what do we do when someone says "is the pope polish"?
I'm hoping they elect a bear as the new pope. That would really confuse things.
I'm not really that religious, but i do believe in God. I was saddened to hear the news today.
But i was more upset that one of my favorite comedians Mitch Hedberg passed away the other day. He was really funny and i loved watching his stand up on Comedy Central.
R.I.P. Pope
I'm drifting between sad and indifferent.
It's never nice when someone dies. Never never never (let's pretend there are no exceptions). It's horrible that he had to have it all so publicly displayed as well. Sure, he's the pope - it's important we know if he's alive or not, but give the guy some privacy. I think it really damaged part of his public persona to have this "holy holy holy" man not being able to feed himself, and having it re-broadcast on every channel worldwide every 10 minutes.
But, at the same time, he condemned a lot of things that are quite personal to me (Do I need to remind you of his thoughts on homosexuality/gay marriage?) which offended me. He's allowed an opinion, of course he is, but he's supposed to be preaching peace. Those sort of speeches are the exact things that incite extremists to go gay-bashing and whatnot. If he was going to be so vocal about this sort of thing (which you expect he would be - after all, he IS the pope), then I'd expect at least an even trade-off by hearing a long-winded speech about tolerance despite disagreement.
So yeah, RIP, pope. I sure hope you're wrong
Well, he's takin' the big Pope Mobile in the sky. Good luck, buddy! Enjoy the hereafter!
Bt
The Catholic church definitely has some very traditional views, but it is getting better and better with time. I would be willing to bet that during the service of the next pope (whoever that might be), the Catholic church will simply HAVE TO accept practices such as gay marriage. People 30 years and younger overwhelmingly support it and this theory of acceptance is only growing. Besides, it wouldn't be the first time the Catholic church has taken a stance against what the bible says (i.e. divorce, women priests, etc.)
Eh, I'm Christian, but not Catholic. So, I don't really care about the pope dying. Still, I'm not spitting on his grave either.
Indifferent is the word I'm looking for. Was looking for. Whatever.
Quote from: Dark of Night on Sun 03/04/2005 02:12:40But i was more upset that one of my favorite comedians Mitch Hedberg passed away the other day.Ã, He was really funny and i loved watching his stand up on Comedy Central.
OMG! Mitch Hedburg died! That's so sad! I may just have to make a baked potatoe in his memory. RIP Mitch.
Wait, what about the Pope?
;)
I wonder who'll be the next pope. Because I read that the Pope died yesterday at 22.37 Estonian time.
Quote from: Oliver on Sun 03/04/2005 09:04:33
I wonder who'll be the next pope. Because I read that the Pope died yesterday at 22.37 Estonian time.
I knew someone who said the next pope is going to be the Antichrist :P
But anyways, I'm not a catholic but he was a great man
Controversial as he was in some issues, he must have done something right - there were 70,000 mourners yesterday at St. Peter's square (and he leaves about 1bn followers worldwide).
To me, JPII was "part of the furniture". I've known no other pope so it feels kind of weird now.
Anyway, he's gone now, let him rest in peace.
...but I'm curious as to who the next pope will be.
Guys. I'm an atheist. But I have respect for the Pope. Part of it because he was a Pole. And I'm a Pole too. In my country national mourning was summoned by the prime minister. There are flags on the streets. People put flowers in front of the pope's monuments. I really feel that someone important had passed away. And somehow I do not feel good hearing that John Paul II was "part of furniture". He was just a man, he commited mistakes and he did some good. To me he was an influencial man.
Oh, sorry Blade, I meant "part of the furniture" as "somebody who has always been around ever since I was a little kid".
I certainly do have a lot of respect for the pope too.
I'm not offended. I know what you meant. I just didn't like the words, that's all.
The passing away of the Pope has no relevence to my life really, I guess there's just one less powerful person that holds strong prejudice around.
What annoys me is that the new Pope will be selected by God.
Well actually, he'll be selected by a council of Cardinals. And since Free Will came along, these Cardinals can choose a Pope that suits their own agenda.
I think the church gives out the wrong message to people, about a lot of things (for example, homosexuality) but the reason I can't stand church is the preachiness.
"God made you and loves you and wants you to join you in Heaven. But he also is SO much better and smarter than you that you could never understand so don't think about it just follow him blindly."
Even Jesus on the cross said "Father, why have you forsaken me." This, by the way, is removed from the Catholic Edition bibles I get in school.
Quote
"God made you and loves you and wants you to join you in Heaven. But he also is SO much better and smarter than you that you could never understand so don't think about it just follow him blindly."
I always thought if God "fitted" completely within my head, God wouldn't be worth believing in.
I really don't understand why the pope didn't abdicate a month or so ago when his health started badly failing, rather than suffering the indignity of having millions of people around the world speculating on whether and when he was going to die.
Have you seen that chapter of Futurama when Bender is lost in Space and he becomes the God of a colony of space society? He pisses it off and all of them die. But he finally meets the "real God" and he says that most of the times the trick is to make the life go on without interfearing and making things that can't be easily noticed... I tend to think most of a God like that (who has nothing to see with "God", "Yahvee", "Buda" or "Allah").
And, anyway, if it exist or not doesn't really care, if you believe in it and you use it as an example of good behaviour. Can you behave good without following "God"? perfect... Do you need its figure to use it as an example or as a lighthouse to see the path? Perfect for me, too...
This may seem strange, but its Organised Religion that I can't stand, not the concept of God existing.
Like that episode of Futurama. That God is what God would be like if he exists.
I think the Pope was pretty amusing. All his incomprehensible murmuring that his surrounding assistant cardinals had to interpret for the rest of the world. And how everybody was excited out of their minds as soon as he waved from that little chamber window to show the world he was still breathing.
I can't say I have any deeper respect for whatever he was doing or accomplishing, since that kind of religiousness seems extremely old fashioned to me.
Quote from: Andail on Sun 03/04/2005 17:45:54
that kind of religiousness seems extremely old fashioned to me.
But then again, we all know the pope wasn't exactly up to the latest trends either. He was hip though, he had a tattoo.
Quote from: Andail
I think the Pope was pretty amusing. All his incomprehensible murmuring that his surrounding assistant cardinals had to interpret for the rest of the world. And how everybody was excited out of their minds as soon as he waved from that little chamber window to show the world he was still breathing.
My own dad suffering from Parkinson, whenever I see somebody old or sick, I usually find it anything but amusing.
I highly doubt Andail found the pope amusing because he was sick and frail.
More likely the smiles came from the crowds of people outside his window who nearly creamed themselves just because Popey waved. And people assigning God-like (although I don't know how appropriate that similie is in this instance) to one who was as unwell as the Pope.
Now the Pope-Mobile. Thats funny.
Aussie, don't dramatize what I said; I find the machinery surrounding the pope and the archaic structure of catholicism entertaining in an absurd sort of way. His syndrome makes this even more prominent.
It's not like malady amuses me per see. There are people close to me who are ill as well, but I can still delight in some grim humour.
If you want to delight in that sort of humor, that's ok. You might find all that "machinery" funny, that's also ok: each is entitled to his own opinions.
But you can't expect everyone to follow on.
I hope you understand other people have different views on some things; and, in certain moments and circumstances, they might find some adjectives/jokes a tad offensive/out-of-place. That's all.
I myself said earlier in this thread that the pope was "part of the furniture" for me, and Blade said he didn't think that choice of words respectful enough. So I just went and apologized, no worries. :)
Perhaps I was a bit carried away by something very sensitive to me at the moment, but dramatizing was not my intention.
Now, the pope-mobile... that is funny. ;)
Pope... yeh, too bad. If I should make a top-million list of things that I think about in one day, religion, God, Pope & co. would be at the very end of the list.
But the news like this are somehow important and it's even surprising how they caught my attention so much. Weird.
Then again, Pope was(I mean - was, is, and will be) extremely rare form of human being in our world. It's quite hard to imagine a man who raises hand and millions - if not billions of people look at him in ALL over the world, and their nationality, race, ethnics, etc - does not mean anything. Only the thing they believe in - counts. And the man doesn't need any weapons or anything like this. He's the Pope! Even if he's just for show, even if his title is just a formality -- if HE speaks, people will LISTEN to him talk. Also, John Paul II did alot in his life and moved much things around on this rock we call Earth.
Power like this is extremely awesome IMO, it unites human race in some way. I admire this.
But people like this are very rare. This is why Nobel prize was invented...
A great man has died.
Quote from: aussie on Sun 03/04/2005 20:43:50
each is entitled to his own opinions.
But you can't expect everyone to follow on.
Hm, what have I done to deserve this preaching? Aren't we all just expressing our opinions? And I don't expect anybody to follow on anything; I just run my case.
Sorry Andail, I never meant to preach or seek confrontation. I just wanted to get my point across.
But I think we're digressing a bit now. Back on topic.
Quote from: InCreator
Then again, Pope was(I mean - was, is, and will be) extremely rare form of human being in our world. It's quite hard to imagine a man who raises hand and millions - if not billions of people look at him in ALL over the world, and their nationality, race, ethnics, etc - does not mean anything. Only the thing they believe in - counts. And the man doesn't need any weapons or anything like this. He's the Pope! Even if he's just for show, even if his title is just a formality -- if HE speaks, people will LISTEN to him talk. Also, John Paul II did alot in his life and moved much things around on this rock we call Earth.Ã,Â
Power like this is extremely awesome IMO, it unites human race in some way. I admire this.
But people like this are very rare. This is why Nobel prize was invented...
A great man has died.
I wholeheartledly agree with you, InCreator.
I never really had any dealings with the Pope. I know he must have done a lot of stuff, but the only time I have ever heard about or seen him it has been in connection with his health.
The thing that saddens me more is the World Press turning his illness into a Dog and Pony show. Alright, so he can't stand for a long time under his own power. Give him some dignity and let him be. If you had a serious illness, how would you feel to have it thrashed through the papers. IMO People have a right to know but not like this.
You know tomorrow, in the UK, they're gonna televise Prince Charles' marriage to Camilla Parker Bowles. I don't know whats worse, the invasion of privacy, or the fact that someone'll watch it.
I talk for myself, but seeing the agony of a person dying (and I've been told 80 % of us will die in agony after a long disease, not just sleeping or something) has helped me to see the whole circle of life, how does it end.
It makes me appreciate the life more, and lately, and I in a "weird" attitude of seeing how the nice things in life are just impossible without its negative counterpart. So... Why hiding it?
Quote from: InCreator on Sun 03/04/2005 21:00:06
Then again, Pope was(I mean - was, is, and will be) extremely rare form of human being in our world.
I bet another one will come along soon enough :)
Quote
It's quite hard to imagine a man who raises hand and millions - if not billions of people look at him in ALL over the world, and their nationality, race, ethnics, etc - does not mean anything. Only the thing they believe in - counts. And the man doesn't need any weapons or anything like this. He's the Pope! Even if he's just for show, even if his title is just a formality -- if HE speaks, people will LISTEN to him talk. Also, John Paul II did alot in his life and moved much things around on this rock we call Earth.
I can't say I agree with this.
People look because he's "the pope", not because he's Karol Wojtyla. I'm sure he did good things to secure his election as pope. But I don't believe as pope he's furthered humanity greatly.
For example, the big news stories on the BBC web site about the pope's life are his election, his shooting, a plot to kill him, and his death.
Quote from: SteveMcCrea on Sun 03/04/2005 23:08:00
the big news stories on the BBC web site about the pope's life are his election, his shooting, a plot to kill him, and his death.
So who shot the Pope? And who tried to kill him?
Vatican't City hearse Vatican't City hearse (all you need is death death is all you need)
Hmm... Don't get me wrong, I wasn't exactly the Pope's biggest fan, but I think that song was a bit harsh.
Then again, maybe I'd prefer it if you put it on CD ;)
Quote from: SteveMcCrea on Sun 03/04/2005 23:08:00
But I don't believe as pope he's furthered humanity greatly.
For example, the big news stories on the BBC web site about the pope's life are his election, his shooting, a plot to kill him, and his death.
Or... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4406191.stm
The man who shot the Pope was Ali Agca (not sure about the spelling).
If you want to know what has John Paul II done, look at the map of Europe. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Lithuania, Lotva, Estonia, Ukraine and even Belarus owe to him because he was the one who really started to talk openly about freedom for this region.
I admit he wasn't on top of my thoughts too, but I respect him. And about him not abdicating - he was once adviced not to leave the church before his death because it could make the cardinals divide, some still following him.
Did anyone ever see the "Sex and the Holy City" documentry?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3147672.stm
Reading the reports you get the impression that the Vatican caused the economic collapse of communism, since that's what caused the disintegration of the eastern bloc, not visits after the inevitable was apparent.
Saying that he is responsible is like saying the newspaper reports about his death being imminent were the cause of it.
Death is a death, but hyperbole is just foolish.
I respect the Pope for standing up for what he believed in, even though it was terribly unfashionable and condemned by many. On the other hand, I think that he was totally wrong on contraception and did a great deal of harm through that. I hope that the new pope sees things differently, but I think that it is unlikely.
Quote from: Farlander gone fishing on Sun 03/04/2005 22:32:50
It makes me appreciate the life more, and lately, and I in a "weird" attitude of seeing how the nice things in life are just impossible without its negative counterpart.
Really? Because I've spent this time thinking how 'ordinary' and 'un-interesting' it all was. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying
the pope was ordinary/whatever, but his illness certainly was. It wasn't anything different to what happens to hundreds of other people around the world every day. Sad to say, it didn't give me any insight to life/death at all. He was just another man who died. A famous man, perhaps, but he still died, and it was hardly the sort of thing that would otherwise grab headlines. Without beind disrespectful, it boils down to this simple headline:
"OLD MAN DIES" - and I think the media was 100% totally wrong to put so much emphasis on his pain and suffering. Not that it would've made any difference if he'd retired earlier. They'd still be hounding him...
Quote from: Blade on Mon 04/04/2005 09:34:10
If you want to know what has John Paul II done, look at the map of Europe. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Lithuania, Lotva, Estonia, Ukraine and even Belarus owe to him
They said the same thing about Reagan when he died.
Well many great men and women have fallen. Lets just remember what he has done.
A great teacher for he was always teaching and those who paid attention had a glimpse of wisdom.
He never backed down from his believes. I for one hope they find another as worthy...
John Paul II. told us to love, and not to hate. He knew that it is impossible for the human mankind to totally believe in and live love, because God is Love Absolute. But he didn't say: "Fuck all those people off, they don't believe me anyway." He consistently told us to love, to spread peace all over the world, for that we shouldn't forget it. And that is, what made him so unique, because he lived, what he said, until he died.
And the other things about homosexuality. I'm sure, that he didn't want to offend anyone about his feelings and affinities. Maybe he just saw into the future, saw, that the basis of Human Mankind and the World itself is the children, the youth. And he assumed, that, if two men are partners, there can't be any new life.
John Paul II. was also a Pope of the youth. And I doubt, that any other pope following will receive so much attention from the youth than he did.
God may bless him. It's probably good for him to have done it.
cheers
nihilyst
Wow, you sure are meek for a nihilist! ;-)
Yeah, I was sad that night, when he wrote that little note and when he said "amen" and died.
I never felt angry at him for attacking homosexuality and contraception, for I don't believe that a watered-down church will survive; you have all this post-modern neo-paganism if you want to both go to heaven and fuck freely.
But...
Remember how I always tried to defend believers from teen atheist catho-bashers?
Well, this I decided to change.
Poland is in a very strange state the last week, traffic jams everywhere, strange initiatives ("Let's turn the lights off at 21:37 EVERYWHERE!") abound, hunts for those who don't take part in mourning (TV reporters asked my father and also a bartender in Italy why they came to work and then debated if they believe their reasons or not).......
I had respect for the Pope, but I don't have respect - and I'm afraid of - the masses.
Those stupid, easily manipulated groups of people, who march whenever somebody beats a drum.
So I tried to share some of my views on a Polish internet portal and I was immediately bashed.
Which lead me to invent this aphorism:
Mourning performed by Polish catholics is like a dog sitting by its bowl.
Everything looks fine and dignified, but don't try to look into their dish or they'll bite your head off.
QuoteI had respect for the Pope, but I don't have respect - and I'm afraid of - the masses.
Those stupid, easily manipulated groups of people, who march whenever somebody beats a drum.
Well said :D
But these masses has always existed and will be in future.
It's good that some of them followed the Pope and not some next Hitler-like madman? Well, if there's a flock, there has to be a sheperd.
(Interesting that few wires run together here, you described the masses just about the way church does - masses need someone to beat the drum - so-called sheperd)
And if it's a peaceful one, and accomplishes his task well, let us respect him.
Yes, a good shepherd, that's right, but...
First of all, the shepherd is dead and they're not following his call at the moment, but the call of others/media.
I bet it's much harder to, say, abstain from pre-maritial sex than to march or light a candle.
Second of all, funny you should mention Hitler. Because that's all I have on my mind at the moment.
Observing this movement, general agitation around me makes me wonder if those people marching, singing songs or stopping at 21:37 in total silence would feel much difference if the call was to break Jewish' shops' windows or set fire to a bad man instead of a candle.
I live close to Jana Pawla II street. The whole damn several-kilometer long street is lined with candles. I saw two drunk hools, barely walking and singing incomprehensibly, stop and relight the candles which went out.
Does mass hysteria for goodness makes it less a malady? Maybe. I'm just feeling strange.