Hi All and to all a Happy New Year.
A friend of mine suffers with pounding migranes and I wish I could help ease the pain.
Now a few years ago I heard that preasure points on the feet, when pushed or massaged, could cure headaches.
Is this true?
If so then I was wondering if anyone here knows how to do this and maybe give me a few pointers.
Maybe even point me towards a good web site dealing with this sort of thing.
Many thanks.
Jay.
Hey man, sorry about your friend, I can't even imagine what a migraine is like. I hope I never experience one. However what you speak of sounds like Reflexology. Beware, it is a pseudoscience and false. So to answer your question, no it is not true. Sorry!
Hi MrColossal.
Thank you for your reply.
I just wish I could do something to help when she is in so much pain.
I do the obvious things like close the curtains give her pain killers and massage her head, shoulders and neck.
This helps alot of the time but not always.
If anyone knows of another remedy then please help.
Thanks.
Jay.
I'm not sure, but I think there are medications at the pharmacie that eases migrane. Try that.
Quote from: MrColossal on Wed 13/01/2010 02:02:39
Beware, it is a pseudoscience and false. So to answer your question, no it is not true.
I don't know where you get that idea, but all I can say is it's definitely genuine. The problem with western people is that they always seek scientific proof and opt to disbelieve when they fail to do this. Note that our technological level is really limited at the time being and it's actually not possible to prove everything as we wish (no, I'm not talking about religions here).
The problem is, not all people who offer such services are really trained. There can be a number of which who cheat for money, especially in the west I think. So, it's not with whether the method is working but the problems are in the people.
Hi Bulbapuck.
Thank you for your reply.
She has tried many medications from the pharmacist but none seem to help, other than to dull the pain slightly.
Also I would like to point out that she has had many examinations by, supposed, experts and all have said that she is fine.
I don't know what to do.
Thanks.
Jay.
Please.
I didn't mean to start an argument. :(
I just wondered if anyone could help. Thats all.
Thanks.
Jay.
Reflexology is a valid form of treatment, and like many other treatments, it's not advisable to try it yourself. If you really want to try this route, see if you can find a board regulating the practice of Traditional Chinese Medicine where you live. Only consult practitioners who know what they are doing.
Please, I ask that you do not.
It is a foot massage. Get her a foot massage and she will feel the same and it will be cheaper.
This is not meant as an argument. Just education.
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/reflex.html
Education on false or unidentified claim is not good. Yeah this is a bit off-topic, so I think we're over with it now.
Reflexology is indeed pseudoscience and is not accepted as a valid treatment by the majority of national medical bodies.
2 issues..
firstly it hasnt been shown to work consistently in double blind tests.
secondly the mechanism by which it is said to work requires a belief in Qi, which has also never been shown to exist.
Once I saw that there is a therapy with electroshocks...not the "institution" ones. ;D Something along the line of inserting a wire around the spine and you carry a pack with batteries that sends signals to it, supposed to stop or noticably reduce migranes (not only a theory but it's actually been successful). Although this was on Beyond tomorrow or some show like that, so I don't know the actual status of that technology.
But, yeah, find the institution that regulates those practitioners in your state/country, it'll not only give you info on who's "legit" but what sort of tehnique is most suitable. Plus I suggest you find some forums, like with all things, there's probably (actually surely) a group that's been through it and/or offers advice etc.
And for the "not working part", all I can say is that placebo goes a long way.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514Si8s6ehL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
This stuff is brilliant, it makes your whole forehead numb and has saved me from many severe headaches.
Also as pathetic as it sounds, marijuana beats any medication when it comes to relieving pain.
I'd advise against marijuana. It's not a thing to play around with.
Quote from: MrColossal on Wed 13/01/2010 02:02:39... I can't even imagine what a migraine is like. I hope I never experience one...
Oh but you have... It's called a 'headache'. Ever notice how, nine times out of ten, the types of people who 'suffer' from migraine are the same people who go to the doctors twice a week for a cough and get signed off work with depression just coz they're feeling a bit blue... A migraine is a hyperchondriac's headache. Take some painkillers and have a rest for crying out loud.
[/controversial ;D]
Oh, for heaven's sake.
Anything is a valid treatment if people find relief in it. It has nothing to do with science, pseudoscience, quackery or any of the rest of it. Jay's asking for an alternative form of treatment because the usual avenues (medication, seeing the doctor) have been exhausted, and he just wants to relieve the pain for his friend. So the least we can do is to give some useful advice about seeking alternative treatments.
Jay, could the problem be psychological or environmental? If so maybe your friend just needs a break or a change of air.
My advice for a migraine that i suffer from too. Is this may sound a bit silly. meditation.
Just need to relax and not think. that is basically meditation
That is what helps any headache with me.
Migraines that i get are caused from stress.
ps.If you want to know how to meditate just search wikihow.com
also Chicky maybe right about marijuana. but I wouldn't take any drugs or anything for a headache cause it just causes other problems ;) .
Quote from: auriond on Wed 13/01/2010 13:43:30
Oh, for heaven's sake.
Anything is a valid treatment if people find relief in it. It has nothing to do with science, pseudoscience, quackery or any of the rest of it. Jay's asking for an alternative form of treatment because the usual avenues (medication, seeing the doctor) have been exhausted, and he just wants to relieve the pain for his friend. So the least we can do is to give some useful advice about seeking alternative treatments.
Jay, could the problem be psychological or environmental? If so maybe your friend just needs a break or a change of air.
Seconding that. I used to have a lot of headaches that were related to bad air and posture! Apparently slouching in front of a computer blocks bloodflow.
Quote from: Stupot on Wed 13/01/2010 13:28:48
Quote from: MrColossal on Wed 13/01/2010 02:02:39... I can't even imagine what a migraine is like. I hope I never experience one...
Oh but you have... It's called a 'headache'.
Yeah the word is probably confused with sever headache with some people. My friend at work gets migraines and he explains the black and white vision, the halos around things, his vision disappearing into static like an old TV can't find a symbol. All while his head is trying to explode. I'd had severe headaches but that has never happened... And it never will!
NO THANKS WORLD! I'LL PASS!
Spoiler
"Anything is a valid treatment if people find relief in it. It has nothing to do with science, pseudoscience, quackery or any of the rest of it." Oh yeah totally, I hear raping a virgin girl will give relief to people suffering from AIDs so maybe it will help with migraines too! Science doesn't know everything! [/controversial!]
You're right in that raping virgins and applying pressure to your feet are very similar. You're just being difficult for the sake of being difficult!
Lets consider the dangers of 'Alternative Medicine'
What if an impressionable woman has cancer and she does not like the idea of chemo since the side effects are awful.
So she goes to a practitioner of alternative medicine who claims he has cured cancer in the passed with zero side effects.
She dies.
Q E D
So what is the moral of this story? Clinging to life isn't always desirable, especially when you can only postpone your death a bit.
Try researching migraines, ask a doctor or chiropractor, she could be allergic to something she is eating or drinking or she is not getting a sufficient amount of water which causes dehydration, in turn causing headaches.
If the migraines do not let up a medical doctor should get a cat scan of her head immediately, blood clot in the brain or even a cancerous tumor could case migraines as well.
Quote from: Calin Leafshade on Wed 13/01/2010 18:51:52
Lets consider the dangers of 'Alternative Medicine'
What if an impressionable woman has cancer and she does not like the idea of chemo since the side effects are awful.
So she goes to a practitioner of alternative medicine who claims he has cured cancer in the passed with zero side effects.
She dies.
Q E D
If I'm clinging for life or something, I'm trying anything that seems like a good idea. And with the doctors here, I try to find other opininons even if it's a limb at stake not only life.
Quote from: auriond on Wed 13/01/2010 13:43:30
Anything is a valid treatment if people find relief in it. It has nothing to do with science, pseudoscience, quackery or any of the rest of it.
If people find relief in it. That's where the science comes in: to determine if it actually does cause any relief.
You could make an argument for treatments that are yet untested, but there's really no defense for methods that have been pretty soundly disproven.
Migraine can have many causes. One of them is the eyes. My ophtalmologist even has built a migraine medical center, and it seems to work for many people for whom other methods didn't work out so well.
Hi All.
Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who has posted here for your help, sympathy for my friend or just your opinions.
Thanks Chicky for the kool'n Soothe. That's something she will have to try.
Thanks Auriond. I don't know if her probs are psychological or environmental. She does get extremely stressed in her job though and that may be the cause.
Perhaps a change will do her good. She has more tests with the hospital soon so maybe they can shed some more light on her ailment.
Stupot. All I can say is that you are most perfectly wrong.
Many thanks to you all.
Jay.
All the best for your friend, Jay. Keep us updated on her condition. :)
MrColossal, Calin, Snarky:
And I suppose all scientifically proven medical treatments have been 100% effective for everybody, and have not killed anyone? But oh, you say, that depends on the practitioner, and the individual patient's response to the treatments. Precisely. That is the same for alternative medicine. My advice to Jay was to find a responsible practitioner should he choose to follow that route. I believe that would be the same for mainstream medicine as well.
Also, I'm aware that all of you come from different backgrounds from myself and possibly Gilbert. To us, what you consider pseudoscience or quackery has been around for thousands of years and is as real to us, and just as effective and possibly just as dangerous as Western medicine. The only difference is that Western medicine hasn't been able to make sense of what we do. Similarly, there are many older folk where we live in who distrust Western medicine and will only consult traditional practitioners. Fine. Different strokes for different folk. Whatever works for them. That's what I meant by "anything that people find relief in is a valid form of treatment". But thanks MrColossal for equating what we do with rape.
My advice here is not for everyone. If Jay had said "My friend has a migraine; what should we do?" I'd say, try paracetamol or see a doctor, not a sinseh. But he specifically said those have failed, and he wants to try other things. My advice was therefore that he should try it with someone who knows how to do these things, and won't cause more harm than good. I don't know why this is met with so much hostility by everyone else.
The fact is we are all human and alternative medicine has highlighted some decent treatments. Aspirin for example has been around for a very long time. Natives chewed willow bark, which contains a derivitive of aspriin, and it alleviated pain. It also gave them pretty bad stomach cramps some of the time since willow bark is also poisonous.
No one doubts that 'alternative medicine' has something to offer. So we tested it all to see which treatments work.
The stuff that did work we kept and it became mainstream medicine. The stuff that didnt we abandoned.
I understand that. However, things like reflexology, acupuncture and certain herbal remedies don't present such a clear-cut case as what you describe. They don't necessarily cause harm when done correctly. (Eating willow bark correctly will still cause cramps, for example, because it's the nature of the thing. Not so for these others I've mentioned.)
No but we can test whether or not the paitient is *better off* with or without.
You test a group of people with the treatment and a group with a placebo. If both groups perform about the same then the treatment has no effect.
all supporting evidence for reflexology is anecdotal which is essentially worthless. Just because someone saw a reflexologist and was magically cured the next day does not mean the treatment works.
Scientific methods such as that which you describe are also flawed. What size group should we work with in order for the results to be considered scientifically sound? Who should they be? How do we record how they feel? Through qualitative responses? (These are nothing more than a collection of anecdotes, by the way). Through quantitative measurement of their vital signs? (Jay's friend has already said that doctors find her perfectly fine, even though she still has bad migraines.)
Science changes. It's not set in stone. One day margarine is seen to be a healthier alternative to butter because of cholesterol, the next day margarine is a health threat because of trans-fats. New discoveries are made all the time which change our perception of health and medicine. In your example, Calin, there was no harm done, only a placebo effect. I feel that even if you see it as a placebo, if a placebo works, and there is no harm done, then there's no harm trying.
I guess I just see the slippery slope in what you're saying and practicing.
If I suggested to him that he go see a psychic because the migraines might be ghosts haunting her brain, is that worthy advice? Say they take the advice, give hundreds of dollars to have a person who claims to be a psychic to shake some herbs or whatever and say that it's a ghost from Atlantis haunting her brain and in order to heal it she has to come back for repeated treatments. This offers her relief for some reason or another.
Is this alright by you?
Psychics have been around for a long long time, probably longer than pressure point theories.
Thousands of people consult psychics every day.
All tests of psychic powers have proven false. Comparing to reflexology that just means we don't know how it works yet but it still works because people say it works.
Psychics don't usually cause bodily harm. So I guess it's still ok.
There are people who have been convicted as frauds and just out to take your money, so that means they just have to find a PROPER psychic, not a charlatan. No problem there then.
I see no difference between my hypothetical and your actual suggestion.
I could also have suggested trepanning and can consider it a valid suggestion like the psychic and reflexology.
Sure, reflexology and doesn't bore holes in the head and as you say "cause harm" but it doesn't cause harm because it does nothing to the body. The harm it does is waste someone's money and time and open the door to other pseudo sciences that could get someone killed.
Anyway I wasn't meaning to equate what you're doing with rape I was making a point that your rational is flawed in that it can support anything. Forgive my strong emotions.
I think humans have a pretty good idea how to test the scientific method so I'm sure they can come up with plenty of tests to test reflexology. If one is made that is peer reviewed and shows positive results I will change my opinion.
What would it take to change your opinion?
Every time we humans, as a species, say something doesn't work, or is impossible, within a few years we do/prove it anyway. Just 10 years ago scientists were 100% positive that, within the laws of physics, it was impossible to bend light (like the predator camouflage) and now not only have they discovered it is possible, someone has actually done it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-OBfSH49fU) (well, with microwaves, but it's essentially the same thing).
I'm not defending or opposing acupuncture (or any "alternative" medicine) because I am not very educated about it. I will only say that if it didn't have tangible results I highly doubt it is something that would have remained in practice since before the west was even in existence.
Back on topic...
I can attest that there is a planet-sized difference between a headache and a migraine. I get headaches all the time (have one now actually). I haven't had a migraine in years (thankfully) but I, in my early 20s, used to get them so bad that I couldn't see. I would have to rush home at the first sign of the onset and close all the blinds, turn of all electrical devices, crawl into the bed (putting the waste basket next to the bed for the vomitting), and put a pillow over my head to help snuff out ALL sound and light. I would know I was in for hours of suffering.
Sadly, Jay, I can't offer any help. The only thing I could do was soldier through it. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, had any effect on it. I tried countless remedies all to no avail. I had CAT scans, neuro-tests, etc. There was/is nothing wrong with my noggin, I just unexplainably got them.
On a positive note, they abated and I've not had one for years.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Thu 14/01/2010 00:34:45I will only say that if it didn't have tangible results I highly doubt it is something that would have remained in practice since before the west was even in existence.
Going off topic, but I'll be short - actually, I wouldn't go so far as to say that, people are very silly about such things. "Superstition" is a part of our lives in every society - from religion and fairy tales to scientific theories, I would go so far as to say they define us in a large way.
Just wanted to pop that thought in. To continue the topic - if it won't hurt, try it, if it works - great, if not, well at least you know it doesn't.
Quote from: MrColossal on Thu 14/01/2010 00:25:14If I suggested to him that he go see a psychic because the migraines might be ghosts haunting her brain, is that worthy advice? Say they take the advice, give hundreds of dollars to have a person who claims to be a psychic to shake some herbs or whatever and say that it's a ghost from Atlantis haunting her brain and in order to heal it she has to come back for repeated treatments. This offers her relief for some reason or another.
Is this alright by you?
If it does cause relief to her, and she therefore thinks it's worth the price, then yes, it's all right by me. I may not go for it myself, and I might think the psychic is a douche for charging so much, but that's seriously between the psychic and the patient. After all, we're always paying far too much for things that aren't worth the price. Just look at diamonds and iPhones.
QuotePsychics have been around for a long long time, probably longer than pressure point theories.
I'm not going to dispute that because I don't have the data to prove it, but such a statement does bother me.
QuoteAll tests of psychic powers have proven false. Comparing to reflexology that just means we don't know how it works yet but it still works because people say it works.
Agreed.
QuoteThere are people who have been convicted as frauds and just out to take your money, so that means they just have to find a PROPER psychic, not a charlatan. No problem there then.
If there is a body that regulates the practice of psychic remedies, then no, no problem. Here in Singapore we do have a board which regulates the practice of traditional Chinese medicine. Only licensed practitioners are allowed to have a clinic.
QuoteSure, reflexology and doesn't bore holes in the head and as you say "cause harm" but it doesn't cause harm because it does nothing to the body. The harm it does is waste someone's money and time and open the door to other pseudo sciences that could get someone killed.
That's where our backgrounds come into play.
QuoteAnyway I wasn't meaning to equate what you're doing with rape I was making a point that your rational is flawed in that it can support anything. Forgive my strong emotions.
That's all right. It's not the first time I've seen this "slippery slope" argument. I believe it's also often applied to homosexual marriage.
QuoteI think humans have a pretty good idea how to test the scientific method so I'm sure they can come up with plenty of tests to test reflexology. If one is made that is peer reviewed and shows positive results I will change my opinion.
What would it take to change your opinion?
Nothing. I believe in both. I am fine with leaving some doors open, that's all. I'm not out to convert anyone.
Auriond and I talked in PM so I am bowing out of the thread! Now we will fight in secret and you all can't see it! We'll show up to various Mittens events with bruises and missing teeth only to make up later and then both go get foot massages while a doctor over prescribes us Ritalin.
That is my prognostication for 2010, I guess it belongs in another thread.
For the record, a migraine is not the same as a regular headache. A migraine is a debilitating condition marked by intense, throbbing pain on one side of the head that becomes worse with movement and often involves nausea, vomiting, and extreme sensitivity to light and sound. One attack can last several hours to several days.
Quote from: MrColossal on Thu 14/01/2010 02:23:04Now we will fight in secret and you all can't see it! We'll show up to various Mittens events with bruises and missing teeth only to make up later and then both go get foot massages while a doctor over prescribes us Ritalin.
The only way to partaaayyyy!!!!
Migraine's are often also caused from dehydration, and most people aren't even aware.
Drink 2 litres of water each day, and you will reduce the chance of getting one.
Quote from: auriond on Thu 14/01/2010 00:01:45
Scientific methods such as that which you describe are also flawed. What size group should we work with in order for the results to be considered scientifically sound? Who should they be? How do we record how they feel? Through qualitative responses? (These are nothing more than a collection of anecdotes, by the way). Through quantitative measurement of their vital signs? (Jay's friend has already said that doctors find her perfectly fine, even though she still has bad migraines.)
There are statistical methods that lets you estimate how big a group you need to test to be able to generalize to the population at large (with a certain degree of confidence). In most cases you want a random sample within the population you want to study. Similarly, you can make standardized scales of qualitative responses which have been tested for internal and external validity, and by aggregating enough answers you can indeed put a numerical value on whether people feel better. You can also use measurements of vital signs, or proxy measures like number of sick days.
Scientists are very clever about testing effects. It's often a hard problem, most studies aren't 100% perfect, and we can't test every possibility, but even so it's not impossible to determine scientifically whether a treatment is effective or not. If something works, there is evidence, and if there is evidence, science can find it.
There is a virtually endless number of alternative and traditional remedies out there, and if we don't base our decisions on evidence we might as well throw darts at a board: "OK, I guess today I'll try voodoo charms. Maybe tomorrow I'll get crystal therapy or homeopathy!"
The danger is not only that it doesn't work, wastes people's time and money, and keeps them away from more effective options. It's also that most of these therapies come with a crackpot system of theories to rationalize how they're supposed to work. It spreads misconceptions and superstition.
Personally I don't see any reason to take pre-scientific medical theories any more seriously just because they're "Eastern." In Europe people believed in four bodily humors, "miasma" as the way diseases spread, and the efficacy of bloodletting. Why do we think the Chinese got it any better? The right attitude is to systematically test specific elements that seem promising, and incorporate the ones that are successful into modern medicine. For example, IIRC a recent study found no significant health benefits to taking ginseng. Investigate and evaluate.
As for the cultural element, people should of course feel free to do the things their mother did to comfort them, whether it's to drink Lemsip or chicken soup or see the local shaman. Just don't consider it treatment.
I am sorry, I am not going to read the whole thread, just drop the impressions I got from MY SCIENTIFIC RADIO PROGRAM :) During the few weeks we treated this kind of alternative medicines.
No one of them has proved to have a single effect on people... except, in a tiny, TINY degree, acupumture (sp?). It seems that nailing your body with small needles makes body create endorphines, which might help with mild kind of pains. The trick? It doesn't matter if the nailing is done in the "Ki channels, by a chinese doctor owner of a milenium knowleadge" or "by some ramdom guy, taken from the street".
Of course, it SLIGHTLY redouces pain, but doesn't cure the cause or anything. Of course, if the pain is too severe, it won't help, even a bit. And of course, there are way more effective ways of getting endorphines, like doing sports.
Any painkiller you can get at the pharmacy will be better than natural-produced endorphines.
So... as you can see... Nailing, preassuring or pinching the body is not worthy of the price they will ask for you to do it.
I find it interesting that people opposing reflexology and other types of alternative medicine put so much faith in science. All I can say is, although I have not been trained in traditional Chinese medicine, I have had Western education all my life, and I have been trained in scientific methodology. What I've learned from it is that what the layman knows as cold hard science is actually dogged by questions of validity, politics within the scientific community, and distortion by the media. Speculation is presented as fact and reported as such. So no, I can't take science as the be-all and end-all.
Even as a teacher of a social science, I do make my students aware that science is not the last word. The most we can do is accept it as what we know given our current technology and ability. We can then choose to act accordingly, or not. It's really up to the individual.
I know that in the end it's really a matter of difference in background and culture, but perhaps not in the way you think. I'm not saying it has worth just because it's Chinese. To the average American or British person, Chinese medicine is a fairly new concept, and I don't doubt that con-men rush to take advantage of this relative ignorance to make a killing on something that they themselves may not even know much about. And to the average Westerner, these con-men probably represent the whole of alternative "treatments". Not much I can do about that though.
Coming back to this specific thread - I still fail to see where the danger lies. As I've said before, if the question had been simply "How do I cure a headache?" I would say, see a doctor or take a painkiller. But the question here is "Doctors and painkillers don't work. Any other ideas?" How then is seeking alternative treatment posing any danger in keeping the patient away from more effective options? Should the answer be "Go back and see more doctors and take more medication until you find one that works"? I don't know about you, but that alone would tell me something about mainstream medicine, and not anything good either.
*sigh* The real irony here is that I don't even LIKE foot massages or reflexology. I'm actually quite ticklish. And I don't even have pierced earlobes, let alone acupuncture. But that's just me.
Is Lemsip not a valid form of treatment? I thought it has a pretty heavy dose of paracetamol somewhere in there.
Every time I see this thread I miss-read it as 'Pleasure Points of the body'.
Auriond:
No one is saying that everyone should immediately shun alternative medicine just because science cant explain it. We are saying you SHOULD shun alternative medicine if it can be demonstrably proved to be false.
Its not like scientists think its all nonsense to begin with and ignore it. It was tested and the tests were a classic null result. No effect. Nada.
Like I said before, alternative medicines have given us insight into alot of treatments but some were also found to be ineffective. Just because they all come under the umbrella of 'chinese medicine' doesnt mean they all have equal worth.
Reflexology has been shown to be bogus.
OK really arguing is not going to help. Just advice of what can help. Not arguing with other help.
(if that even makes sense)
If whatever works then great. It does not have to be scientifically proven to work.
Quote from: Calin Leafshade on Thu 14/01/2010 10:58:37No one is saying that everyone should immediately shun alternative medicine just because science cant explain it. We are saying you SHOULD shun alternative medicine if it can be demonstrably proved to be false.
And I'm seriously questioning the methods by which it has been demonstrably proven to be false. For example, leeches are back in fashion in the field of medicine these days, even after decades of having demonstrably "proven" to be worthless.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-07-07-leeches-maggots_x.htm
But anyway this is all pointless. I never meant to set out to convince anyone of anything. My statements were all made with Jay's particular situation in mind. He asked a question and I answered to the best of my own knowledge, as much to the point as I could. As I'm going to say for the last time, I am not a proponent of alternative medicine as a first resort. If I fall ill I'm not going to go to the local sinseh first. But if all else have failed then I see no harm in trying other methods, whether or not somebody with letters after their names tell me that these methods don't work.
To conclude, if it works for somebody, then it is a valid form of treatment for that somebody. I am not proposing that alternative medicine alone can cure the world's ills, I am not proposing that everyone reading this thread agree with reflexology or even try it, and I'm certainly not proposing that reflexology has worth just because some Chinese fellow came up with it several thousand years ago. I am simply saying that many people in this part of the world accept it and practise it alongside Western medicine, and that Jay and anyone else who feels that they have exhausted the possibilities of mainstream medicine should be able to feel free to try this route as well.
Speaking of exhaustion though, I've said more than I really should on this subject. I'm tired and I don't really blame anyone if people on the other side of the planet continue to believe that certain practices are hokey. I apologise for any unnecessarily provoking remarks I've made in this thread, and Jay, I'm really sorry that I've prolonged the debate this far.
Personally I am sceptical of "alternative medicine", however, I am a big fan of the "placebo effect!"
I'm using a somewhat strange definition of "placebo effect" here but my point is essentially this. When I have a heavy cold I like to drink Lemsip. I have been told by many people on many occasions that I would do equally well or perhaps even better (and save some money!) just to take some paracetamol and have a hot drink but for some reason I feel Lemsip (or whatever store own brand) works better. I'm sure there is no scientific evidence for this and objectively it probably doesn't, possibly even demonstrably, but I also feel that if it is benefitting me more than paracetamol & a hot drink then I will take that, even if it is all in the mind!
So in summary if alternative medicine helps I'm fine with it, even if it is completely psychological, and for migranes etc. why not try it, but for anything more serious I would approach with extreme caution and use it as "supplemental" treatment rather than an alternative to surgery/"medical" treatment etc.
Auriond, I don't think you need to be worried about provoking anyone. You are a rational, polite and civilised person. I don't think anyone has taken issue with the way youve conducted yourself... Why is everyone always so afraid of debate :P
As for your comment about leeches, thats fine. The strength of science is that it changes it's opinion to fit the data. If scientists found out tomorrow that reflexology can cure cancer and they could demonstrate that to be the case then I would sign up wholeheartedly.
Viva la data!
Thank you, Calin. I'm only particularly "afraid" of debate in this case because Jay started the thread with
Quote from: RetroJay on Wed 13/01/2010 02:59:26
Please.
I didn't mean to start an argument. :(
I just wondered if anyone could help. Thats all.
Thanks.
Jay.
.. and all the time I was arguing I kept feeling really bad about ignoring his request :P
If anyone else still feels like they want to continue the debate via PM though, my inbox is always open :)
Just start a thread called argue with everything or something ;D
I am surprised there isn't one already
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bad-Science-Ben-Goldacre/dp/000728487X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263475233&sr=8-1
That is all.
Using a treatment that is based on the placebo effect is perfectly fine as long as the price tag is accordingly low.
Also, a placebo can still have an effect even if the patient does know he's getting one.
Thus, if I were to morally judge practitioners of alternative or Chinese "medicine", I'd base that on how much they charge and whether they're being honest about what they do.
The cool thing about science is that it has built-in auto-correction. It is the most perfect method of approaching objective truth (though it can never reach it) there is. It's as simple as that.
And advocates of alternative methods almost always display a sincere distrust in science. Sure, science is done by humans, so of course sometimes there's bad science. But these minor setbacks are bound to be corrected in the future.
Medical science has friggin' doubled the life expectancy in the last hundred years. Given that it was invented about twice that time ago, where's a comparable achievement by alternative medicine, especially regarding the popular argument that it has been around for thousands of years?
In short, if all physical and psychological causes have been thoroughly ruled out, go visit some quack if you must. But don't tell me that his "certificate" or "science" is worth more than zilch.
Quote from: auriond on Thu 14/01/2010 12:43:37
Quote from: Calin Leafshade on Thu 14/01/2010 10:58:37No one is saying that everyone should immediately shun alternative medicine just because science cant explain it. We are saying you SHOULD shun alternative medicine if it can be demonstrably proved to be false.
And I'm seriously questioning the methods by which it has been demonstrably proven to be false. For example, leeches are back in fashion in the field of medicine these days, even after decades of having demonstrably "proven" to be worthless.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-07-07-leeches-maggots_x.htm
Not a very good example. Leeches today are being used in a completely different way, for a completely different purpose, based on a completely different medical theory than they were back in the dark ages.
If someone at some point in the future proposed that reflexology (minus the whole notion of mapping zones on the foot to regions in your body) could be used to treat depression, because the human contact and physical stimulation released certain chemicals in the brain, then that would be a completely separate matter and certainly an argument for it as a valid treatment for that particular purpose.
Current scientific opinion isn't right on all matters (usually because they've missed subtleties and exceptions to the rule), but represents the best available evidence. Like Khris mentioned, its success speaks for itself.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Thu 14/01/2010 00:34:45
Every time we humans, as a species, say something doesn't work, or is impossible, within a few years we do/prove it anyway.
Actually, there's plenty of things people have long said are impossible that haven't been achieved. Most things, probably. We just tend to hear about the exceptions. Seen people travel in time? Go faster than the speed of light? Have we found a way to stop aging and live forever? What about reducing the entropy of a closed system? Have we achieved worldwide peace and universal equality?
Auriond, if we don't use science for creating medical treatments... what do we use? I mean... what makes "a millenium treatment" different to "a treatment invented by the guy living in the third floor"? Time? Ancient does not marry well with science, specially having in mind that at those times they believed that earth was flat.
The "science is not all" blah, blah, blah it's fashioned, but quite empty, to be honest. Because, by definition, nothing real is opposite to science. There are real things that haven't been explained yet by science, not real things opposite to it. And curing things by nailing your body or touching your feet is totally opposed to science.
Quote from: Snarky on Thu 14/01/2010 15:28:09Actually, there's plenty of things people have long said are impossible that haven't been achieved. Most things, probably. We just tend to hear about the exceptions. Seen people travel in time? Go faster than the speed of light? Have we found a way to stop aging and live forever? What about reducing the entropy of a closed system? Have we achieved worldwide peace and universal equality?
How about if I change it to, "So many times we humans, as a species, have said something is impossible..."
Grammar/phrasing aside, either way, the point is still valid.
Just to put in my two cents, and ignore the larger debate going on in the thread, I wanted to say that I'm an infrequent migraine sufferer, myself. I fortunately only suffer one, maybe two a year (Though they tend to come at inopportune times. I managed to find myself in the middle of one on Christmas Eve six or seven years ago).
In regards to reflexology and acupuncture, I live in east Asia (Japan, with a fair amount of time spent in South Korea), where these practices are very common and relatively highly regarded. I, myself, haven't used them nor do I practice them but my SO swears by acupuncture, and has an acupuncturist she visits from time to time when the headaches get bad. The effects may or may not be psychosomatic, but she seems to find relief from them, so I am glad she does it.
That aside, I'd like to address more specifically the migraines themselves - assuming she is suffering migraines.
In my case, I have learned to recognize the warning signs of an upcoming migraine. I start to lose peripheral vision, and certain spots within my line of sight, often near the center, become 'blanked out' for lack of a better term (I'd describe it as limited blindness, where I lose sections of my vision, but my mind attempts to fill in the blank by extrapolating from surrounding sources). If I find myself talking to someone and being unable to see their face except at an angle, then I know I'm in for a ride.
When you feel a migraine coming on, the best idea is to get somewhere dark (and in my case cold), to lay back with your head on something soft and gently apply consistent pressure to the point where your neck and skull meet. It seems to help relieve some of the building pressure. I find it usually best to try to sleep, because your day is shot anyway, and better to be unconscious through the worst of it.
An excess of caffeine or physical exertion seems to be the leading causes for me. Your friend should avoid any unnecessarily rigorous exercise, outside of her normal routine (If she already runs on the treadmill or does the 30-day shred, then just ratchet it back a little, perhaps), and try to stick to water instead of coffee or other drinks.
Not sure if any of my advice will be useful, everybody has a unique body and some things work better than others for different people, but can't hurt to try... At least not any more than the headaches.
My advice still is meditation cause mostly headaches and migraines are triggered from stress and thinking too much.
I was years ago suffering from migraines quite often like 1-2 a month. Now I suffer maybe 1 every 2 years or so.
(it is natural free and easy also you don't become dependent on anything.)
Danman, i think you are getting migraines confused with headaches. It's a common mistake but migraines are in fact not just a really bloody bad headache but full blown reflex vomiting, loss of sight and weeks without sleep.
trust me, if you think that meditation can stop your migraine; your not having a migraine.
What else could migraines be caused by. but stress. I don't vomit or lose eye sight. I get like a white light on usually on my left eye for about 5 minutes of a day. And the pain is completely on one side of my face and is sometimes unbearable. And is always sensitive to light. I am pretty sure it is a migraine cause my doctor gave me migraine pills but that was like 4 years ago. ;)
Like marijuana. meditation it is just to relax.
Edit: Also I get headaches all the time so I do know the difference. caused from thinking a lot.
Fair enough Dan, you seem to know what you're talking about. I knew someone who mainly suffered when it came to sleeping strangely enough, which is why i was skeptical about meditation.
Marijuana is a painkiller FYI, not just stress relieving.
Well I know what you talking about with marijuana cause well where I live marijuana is like a cigarette ( Not that i smoke). Most people I know who smoke it say it helps with stress and relaxing.
Meditation is just the best way for most people cause not everyone thinks I have a migraine let me smoke some ganja. if you know what I mean.
anyway all i am saying is that is what worked for me.
Chicky are you aware that weed is a controlled substance in the United Kingdom?
I shall be keeping my eye on you and will report you to the necessary authorities if needed.
IT'S FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY!
[/joking]
LOL
No matter how many times I see this thread, I always read the topic as "Pleasure Points of the body."
Quote from: Layabout on Thu 14/01/2010 10:49:57
Every time I see this thread I miss-read it as 'Pleasure Points of the body'.
So does Layabout.
There ya go.
I changed the subject.
Ok so I spelled 'Pressure' wrong. ;)
Haha, what are the odds of that?
Just so that direct questions to me don't go unanswered:
I am a proponent of science and mainstream medicine. I have said three times, but I don't mind saying again, that if I fell ill I would see a DOCTOR, and not a sinseh. I have the highest respect for scientists and doctors.
However, that does not mean I would put my whole faith in science and science alone. If it makes anyone feel better, I have an even deeper mistrust of alternative medicine than I have of science. As I've said upthread, I've never had reflexology or acupuncture myself. Clarityne has kept my sinus problems at bay, not reflexology. But if Clarityne had failed, I would likely have gone on to seek other methods, so long as it's fairly safe. It's a perfectly acceptable recourse where I live.
So IF Jay's question had been different, I would have given him a much different answer.
edit: With Jay's permission, I'm back in the fray! :D Hooray for intellectual debate!
Snarky: Very good point indeed, but it's not exactly what I was getting at with the leech example. My point was that it took science this long to figure out what leeches were really good for. Why did it take them this long? I don't know for sure, but I could suggest a few reasons: Could be because technology was simply not available for us to figure out the real benefits of using leeches. Or, could be that for decades, the very fact that science pronounced leeches useless discouraged people from conducting further investigation as to what else leeches might be used for. Still, science has done no harm, right? But for those few decades, people who could have benefited from leeches, didn't, because science had turned away from them. Except, of course, for those who might have kept an open mind and tried leeches for various purposes despite popular (at that time) medical opinion that it was an old, useless method of "treatment".
In short, yes, I'm skeptical of science, but I'm also skeptical of alternative medicine. It's simply a matter of degree of skepticism - I am MORE skeptical of traditional medicine than I am of science. At the same time, I see no harm in trying one where the other has failed. Still, I would propose mainstream science before alternative medicine.
Being skeptical of science is the *only* way to be. You should always examine the evidence and never accept things at face value.
However, you can apply the scientific method to all walks of life, including alternative medicine. Saying that science can't deal with alternative medicine posits the idea that alternative medicine is somehow 'out there' or 'on another plane' or something.
If you are a materialist then you believe that alternative medicine must work by chemical processes and thus they can be observed scientifically. They ARE science in that sense.
If however you believe in some flavour of dualism then the mechanics of alternative medicine might be otherworldly in some sense but the *effects* will still be statistically recordable and therefore science can still comment on their effectiveness.. which thus far has been zilcho.
You would could mix it up a bit and talk about the pleasure points of the body. I am quite fond of the fun slide. You know the bit that goes from your pelvis to your...
But has the fun slide been scientifically proven?
Talking about pleasure points in the body (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8439000.stm) :D.
"The elusive erogenous zone said to exist in some women may be a myth, say researchers who have hunted for it."
(I get all my information from xkcd :D)
And how... exactly... did they hunt for it? :P
with a wetsuit and a divers helmet.
Thank goodness. I was half afraid someone would say with a pickaxe and helmet.
How do scientists know? Everyone knows scientists can't get laid.
Quote from: Chicky on Thu 14/01/2010 17:39:06
Danman, i think you are getting migraines confused with headaches. It's a common mistake but migraines are in fact not just a really bloody bad headache but full blown reflex vomiting, loss of sight and weeks without sleep.
This was my point in my earlier post. I wasn't really disputing the existence of the migraine, just pointing out that probably 90% of people who say they have a migraine are just being hyperchondriacs. Ive had bad headaches... I've sometimes had a bit of nausea alongside them, but a Mars Bar and a glass of water usually does wonders... I wouldn't diagnose myself with a migraine until it knocked me out of bed screaming.
Hey man, this thread has moved on. It's now about Pleasure points of the body, not migraines. Get with the roaring 10's.
The pleasure points on the body should be something like this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Haddas/anatomy.jpg)
That is if my memory serves me right. It's been a while since I've had biology
It's been a while since I had biology too :(
Who wants to do biology with me?
Here's a great breakdown of the dilemmas of alternative "medicine".
http://www.dcscience.net/?page_id=10
Especially the first one drives the point home beautifully.