R.I.P. Stanley Williams

[Nikolas]

DG: A silly mistake is not a murder! come on! It is not the same!

BTW, I found a use at AmIrightorwrong. Let's have a poll

http://www.amiwrongorright.com/?id=10472

[Kinoko]

Squinky: That sounds pretty good, I'm glad to hear they have things like that in place!

I guess I meant what I said on a more extreme level though. Like, think of the most seemingly-insane, evil criminal you can think of. do you think it's possible for him to see the error of his ways and honestly change for good? I do. Honestly. I believe even someone like Hitler could have been convinced of his own evil and made to realise the horror of what he did. I think it would have taken a heck of a lot more than years of therapy and things like that though. It would have to have been an intense, intense shake up of his life, involving every trick in the book. Old grandmas, young children, kittens, flying him to different countries, re-educating him on the basics of life, possibly some spiritual enlightenment, drill sargaent style interrogations probing deep into his soul... I don't know. I believe it's possible with everyone. But it's not practical. I think we should do everything we can on a broad scale, as squinky mentioned in Idaho, and individually as much as we can, but doing as much as we can won't necessarilly mean it's enough... there's just no guarantee.

I'd like people not only to consider murder though, which is not, to me, the worst of all crimes, and think of the case of a child rapist. These are the one "genre" of criminal I find my usual values have trouble standing up to. I tend to find myself thinking these people are beyond saving in any circumstance. I'm honestly not sure what to do in these cases but I can't say I'd be sad to have a Ã, death penalty exist soley for these people.

pcj: Thanks for the info. But I'm not just talking about America. Do any other countries use it? Anyway, in that case, why does Nebraska still do it, I have to wonder.

[DGMacphee]

"Hasn't anyone else here made a mistake? Haven't we all tried to make amends at one stage? Is everyone infallible but Williams?"

yes I have made mistakes... but they didn't involve the death of anyone.

That's not the point. Hell, a guy could get drunk, drive a car and kill a child, but that doesn't mean he had the intent to kill someone.

So let's talk about intent.

Forget murder for a second. Have you ever been purposely spiteful only to regret such later?

You see, we as human beings are often blind while under rage. It's only after we learn from our mistakes that we achieve clarity.

I may not have murdered anyone in my life, but I have done some very mean things before. Things I've regreted and apologised for. And I have learned from such in order to understand myself better.

Williams made a bigger mistake than probably any of us have. I'm sure he learned from it. But if you forever condemn him, you might as well forever condemn ever other person on the planet who was once spiteful but has learnt from their actions.

"I once was blind, but now I see."

DG: A silly mistake is not a murder! come on! It is not the same!

If someone commits a murder then regrets it and other say that such is not a mistake, then what the fuck is it??

Also, see my comments above.

[pcj]

pcj: Thanks for the info. But I'm not just talking about America. Do any other countries use it? Anyway, in that case, why does Nebraska still do it, I have to wonder.

Good question...here's more info on Nebraska; I couldn't find why they use electrocution instead, but it might be to deter people from committing capital offenses in the state.

[Nikolas]

We're talking about murder here. Not a mistake!
A mistake would be stealing a car, stealing money, beating up your wife. Not killing. And when you talk about murder, I don't think you're refering to the drunk who accidently killed someone on the road.
Don't get me wrong. I said it before, I'm saying it again: I'm against capital punishment! Like Kinoko, I believe that people can change no matter what (99.9%, always).

Part of forgiving your self is having your victim forgive you. You know a simple, I steal your car, you find me, I spent time in jail, in the meantime, you have your car back, and although you won't ever put me in your house, you have forgiven me, because I was young, stupid, drunk, under drugs, anything. In the murder case this is not possible!

That's the difference.

And anyway let's see things from another view:

What is the purpose of any punishment?

1. To prevent the criminal from doing more crimes!
2. To reform(e) the criminal to make him a usefull member of the society.
3. To advertise what will happen to anyone trying the same thing! Examplify (is this an actuall english word?)
4. To simply punish the criminal!

I can't find another reason for punishment in general. And I can't see something that can only be acomplished by killing the murderer. Not ot mention that No.2 goes to waste...

[DGMacphee]

So a carjacker can be "young, stupid, drunk, under drugs, anything" and call it a mistake but a murder can't?

That's a little hypocritical.

I mean your whole basis for this seems to be "murder can't be considered a mistake because it's murder", which is a pretty superficial argument.

I think someone can say, "That was an error. I regret it. I am sorry. I was young and stupid," for crimes they commit, be it carjacking, murder, or stealing pies from open windows.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Wow.  I mean, wow.  We all make mistakes, right?  Like...Murder?  That's got to be the single most inane argument against the death penalty I've EVER had the misfortune of reading.

[pcj]

Yep.

People do make mistakes, that's why the punishment is judged on a case-by-case basis.  But we have to allow for the option of the death penalty in others.

[IM NOT TEH SPAM]

Williams made a bigger mistake than probably any of us have. I'm sure he learned from it. But if you forever condemn him, you might as well forever condemn ever other person on the planet who was once spiteful but has learnt from their actions.

Everyone keeps talking about it like he made a mistake.  It wasn't.  Killing four people with a shotgun isn't an accident.  He did it to prove he was tough, not because of circumstance.  This guy wasn't "young and stupid", he was a gang member.  The only reason he would regret it is because he was going to die, and he couldn't do it all over again.

[Kinoko]

I agree with DG. Murder CAN, in some circumstances, be a mistake. whether it be accidental, unintentional, the result of an alterered mindstate or simply really regretted.

Just because it's an action that resulted in the death of someone else, that doesn't mean it can't be a mistake.

Don't just think of 'murder' as some scary looking guy shooting an innocent person. In real life, it happens all the time for bizarre or really mundane reasons.

Recently in Japan, a young girl student was murdered by her teacher. They had a lot of fights and he simply decided to kill her one day. He got all the other students out, closed and locked the classroom and stabbed her to death. He then confessed, no struggle. He simply found that he couldn't live with that girl also existing in the world, regardless of the consequences. This case REALLY baffled me, I tried to think of what he could have possibly been thinking. How he thought this would help. Why he gave himself up just like that. This isn't an argument for my "murder is sometimes a mistake" case, just to show that murders in real life are often just strange like that. Just someone kind of snapping out of their usual self and society. Life is extremely complicated like that.

Now, I don't think the fact that murder is sometimes a mistake or regretted, is a good argument against the death penalty. It's simply a good reason to be very wary, and to... as much as we possibly can, take things on a case by case by case basis.

[DGMacphee]

Wow.Ã,  I mean, wow.Ã,  We all make mistakes, right?Ã,  Like...Murder?Ã,  That's got to be the single most inane argument against the death penalty I've EVER had the misfortune of reading.

Then you better not read Capote's "In Cold Blood". Hey, wow! He wrote a whole book considered a masterpiece on something you consider inane! Bloody hell and fuck me in the eye hole! Ain't that a piss in the pants?

Jesus, you're treating this like if someone commits a murder, they lose their humanity forever and can never get it back. Murderers are still human beings. If anything, people murder because they are misguided human beings. Murder has been a misguided part of human culture for many, many centuries. So, don't act so shocked at the things I say.

I don't validate William's crimes. I think he should have spent a long time in prison. But I don't think anyone can justify the death penalty for him on the simple basis that he was a murderer and that's that. Who are we to judge? We're not perfect.

[Nikolas]

I mean your whole basis for this seems to be "murder can't be considered a mistake because it's murder", which is a pretty superficial argument.

I'm just trying to differentiate between a mistake and a murder. No, I don't think it's the same. And if you read the paragraph about forgiving I think I try to explain why.

And I'm drawing a line between a road accident which evtually kills a lot of people and a cold-clooded murder with a shootgun! Simple as that! And I think that every country in the world (ok, I don't know about all the countries but still), even countries that don't have death penalty find that cold-blooded murder with a shootgunx4 is worst than a car accident while drunk (which results in death).

If I'm not mistaken murder is when you kill somebody because you want to do it! Everything else can be a mistake but not murder. I could be wrong in my English so forgive me if this is the case.

Again a note here: I don't think that anybody should receive the death penalty. Nobody! They don't lose their humanity forever and I don't want to lose hope of their redemption. But a murder is not simply a mistake.

[DGMacphee]

I think someone can be a misguided individual to go out and kill someone. That consistutes a mistake.

[pcj]

I mean your whole basis for this seems to be "murder can't be considered a mistake because it's murder", which is a pretty superficial argument.

If I'm not mistaken murder is when you kill somebody because you want to do it! Everything else can be a mistake but not murder. I could be wrong in my English so forgive me if this is the case.

Yes, that's right.  If you don't have intent to kill someone, that's manslaughter.  If you're charged with murder, you are being charged with intentionally killing someone.  Sure, you might regret it in the future, that's commonly known as "guilt".  It changes nothing, you still did it, and should bear the consequences.

[DGMacphee]

I agree. Bear the consequences. And I also think that "intent" is a key issue here, as I said previously. However, I still think you can have the intention to do something bad and later call it a mistake after you realise the negative impact of such actions.

As the cliche goes: To err is human, to forgive devine.

[pcj]

Guilt is natural.  His feeling sorry for his actions won't bring back the dead.  Since he knows what he did was wrong, he should also accept his punishment.

[DGMacphee]

Punishing him won't bring back the dead either. So, why'd you bring that up?

[Kinoko]

I can see we're spiralling towards a conclusion here ^_^

[pcj]

Because there are consequences to his actions; not only did he commit a crime against the victims, he committed a crime against the state.

If punishing him won't bring back the dead, neither will letting him free.  Keeping criminals apart from society is one way the government keeps them from killing other innocents.

[DGMacphee]

No, you misunderstand. I was trying to say it's a bit of a pointless argument to say "his feeling sorry for the victims won't bring them back". Of course it won't. Neither will anything else.

Hmm, maybe this might sound better coming from Morgan Freeman. He has a softer, gentler voice than I do.

Take it away, Morgan!



"There's not a day goes by I don't feel regret. Not because I'm in here, or because you think I should. I look back on the way I was then, a young, stupid kid who committed that terrible crime. I want to talk to him. I want to try and talk some sense to him, tell him the way things are. But I can't. That kid's long gone and this old man is all that's left. I got to live with that. Rehabilitated? It's just a bullshit word. So you go on and stamp your form, sonny, and stop wasting my time. Because to tell you the truth, I don't give a shit."

I'll leave it at that for the moment. I have to go do some work.