Okay I feel somewhat silly asking this, but I want serious answers. I've been trying to convince my stepdad that we need to upgrade our computer (custom built) for a while now, primarily focusing on the RAM because we only have an embarassing 512 MB.
However these last few days our CPU seems to have been getting overloaded a lot. The computer has been freezing...a lot more than usual...and when pulling up the dreaded "Windows Task Manager" it shows that our CPU is being used at 100% of its capacity.
Our CPU is a 2.4 GHz Intel Celeron, and like I said, we have 512 MB of RAM. So the question is this: Which should be upgraded first? I realize that everything the computer does has to be passed through the CPU, but it seems to me that upgrading the RAM would help take some of the pull off the CPU itself. To be perfectly honest I know a lot more about software than I do hardware...and we've all seen how much I know about software ;)
Another thing that needs to be upgraded is our graphics card as apparently ATI's All-In-Wonder RADEON card isn't compatible with pretty much any game ever made ever...but that's a different story.
I have an athlon XP 2600+ and 512mb ram... I'm fine with it, rarely is there much of a memory shortage... but I wouldn't mind another 512.
If your cpu is running at 100% usage when you aren't doing something extremely processor intensive you should check what is using the CPU on the processes list, because that's quite unusual and suggests there's a software problem.
I'm reluctant to upgrade one part of my pc really, because technology has moved on so much I'd have to throw out any bits I bought if I upgraded to a new system later. RAM has gotten faster, graphics cards come as PCI-E now, all the processors have new slots... I'm going to wait until I can make a new system entirely.
Well, if you are doing nothing, and the task manager shows 100% CPU usage, then I'm guessing you picked up a virus. I had that problem, and that one was pretty bad, masked himself as SVCHOST (the windows critical process) so I couldn't remove it. When I finally found the file and a way to remove it, it fixed itself after restart so the windows partition got formatted by me.
I would suggest you to upgrade the ram (if you think it's necessary), but if you're planning a complete upgrade in the near future you could wait a bit, save some more money and so on.
EDIT: and what Scotch said.
Also, check the performance tab of the task manager, it shall display info about your CPU usage and page file usage, pay special attention to the PF usage (and the memory consumption info. below), if the graph often hits peak area, that means most memory is used and quite possibly disk virtual memory is used extensively, which can affect performance significantly, this means you probably don't have enough RAM for your normal task (or, like others mentioned there's something which consumed the memory and/or CPU).
Don't mean to be a jerk, but maybe you're just running too much stuff. Change around what starts up durring your startup and what runs in the background. I ran with 256 for the longest time, and I didn't have much of a problem. Only issues I had were with my graphics on my motherboard and my crappy monitor. For RAM, 512 isn't bad at all. Not for a family computer.
Windows XP, Norton AntiVirus, iTunes, [Mozilla Firefox[/Gunbound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GunBound)/Rakion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakion)]].
I close out of everything else. And no, I don't run Gunbound and Rakion at the same time. And I rarely have Firefox open while I'm playing either of them. Right now I'm not running either of the games, but I'm running the rest of that stuff. And it's showing between 15 and 25% CPU usage. I guess I should have been more clear that it's not at 100% all the time, it's just been happening a lot lately. I know how to check what processes are running, but the majority of them show 0% memory usage.
The main problem for me seems to come when I'm trying to play games. But my stepdad told me he's been having problems with the computer in general. So I'm not really sure what the problem is.
Anyway, I was really just wondering what would make the more dramatic difference in overall speed. For now I've got to go.
I'm probably the wrong one to respond since I'm running contentedly w/ 2GB. However, if you are looking at upgrades, any real CPU upgrade will entail a RAM upgrade as well. AMD's been cutting their prices for older chipsets, and you get get pretty decent performance for little money. If I were to build a family machine that would run most modern games quite well and be pretty handy w/ graphics/video apps, I'd probably to an AMD socket 939 X2 4400+ w/ 1GB DDR & a 7900 GS gfx card (or if 3D gaming isn't a requirement, probably a low-end ATI AIW).
In any case, there's no point in upgrading the cpu on the board it's on, but another 512 MB RAM might iron things out.
I'm with everyone else though, in suspecting you've got some spyware/virus or too many bloated applications. A clean install would probably net you greater performance gains than dropping double the RAM in.
(you just dropped in a reply, and I note there's no mention of Spybot or even AdAware in there . . . give Spybot a try if you haven't -> download link (http://www.safer-networking.org/en/mirrors/index.html). Install, go through update/immunize steps and run a scan and see what it comes up with. It won't catch legitimate software that's ultra-bloated (like some of Creative Labs helper apps or other supporting software), but does a good job overall)
CPU wins!
Fatality!
Nya... Radiant got there first!
CPU
Well, run a antivirus check. Next open Accessories ---> System Tools ---> System Info ---> Software and see what programs and drivers\device managers are running, of they're manufacturer is not available thye might be viruses need to be removed, google those files to find out. Next you have programs that load when booting that you don't need.
Click Start --> Run --> msconfig ---> Startup (\boot) folder and uncheck all programs you don't to start when booting the PC.
Now you have hopefully reduced CPU usage.
As for hardware, ALWAYS upgrade RAM first. It can do wonders. Though you have a weak CPU it's because Celerons are slower and weaker because they have less cache memory, so it would be preferable to get a stronger CPU too especially if you intend to run high graphics games, Celerons would be a bad choice to run them even with a graphics card. But First upgrade the RAM and see how it goes.
As for the ATI Radeon, the earlier eries like 9000 and 9200 are not compatibable with many of the newer games but the 9800 series is pretty good. And ATI has stronger series of crads than Radeon too.
So...some say CPU. Some say RAM. That helps. :=
Anyway, none of the real decision making lies with me. My stepdad asks my opinion, but in the end it boils down to two facts:
1. It's his computer.
2. It's his money.
As for "a clean install"...it's not really very practical at this point. Since it is my dad's computer. It's been probably about 6 - 8 months since we last formatted and whatnot. From what I've heard you should do it about once a year though just to get rid of all the accumulated junk files.
Thanks for all the tips/suggestions/info. It helps...me. Maybe not the computer I'm running...but it's nice for future reference.
Anti-virus software only goes so far. There's nothing better than a clean install, because virus software and spyware programs only can catch some of the stuff. Not to mention those programs themselves slow down your computer.
512mb RAM isn't bad as long as he's not doing 3D rendering and stuff like that. A lot of it is setting up Windows and getting rid of the unneeded junk Windows comes with. Also, you can turn off a lot of the stupid GUI stuff, too. Just doing this will make his 512mb RAM seem like a lot more.
Sounds like he's got a lot of spyware and possibly some viruses. I would really advise just to get an external harddrive, back everything up, and then format the system. Then copy back the files from the external harddrive as he needs them.
Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Thu 19/10/2006 23:01:46
So...some say CPU. Some say RAM. That helps. :=
You've never explicitly stated why you need to upgrade so it makes it impossible to give a meaningful recommendation.
It sounds like your problems (CPU usage at 100%, ATI RADEON not working with any games) are software based, so upgrading CPU or RAM won't help much. Fix you Windows installation first (lots of good info in this thread already), then look at what software/games you find are under performing.
Like the general opinion here strongly suggests...
If you got a memory upgrade, and then your computer screws itself up some more, is the solution to get even more memory?
I'm with everyone here in thinking there's something worng with your PC. I have 512mb of RAM and my CPU is showing 99% idle right now.
Hey folks, if I wanted to upgrade my computer to run more plug-ins at a time in fruity loops so the CPU is less intensive, what's best RAM or CPU memory upgrade?
Quote from: ManicMatt on Fri 20/10/2006 01:04:04
Hey folks, if I wanted to upgrade my computer to run more plug-ins at a time in fruity loops so the CPU is less intensive, what's best RAM or CPU memory upgrade?
Depends on what you're doing.
For loading large samples and sample-based plugs: more RAM.
For virtual analog synths and most effects plugs: CPU.
Although if you're loading hundreds of different little plug-ins and if you already have a decent CPU then RAM could help more.
Like I said, the CPU isn't at 100% usage constantly. It just happens sometimes.
As for the RADEON not working with "any" games, I was exaggerating. I've had problems specifically with Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (I know for a fact that the OpenGL is out-of-date and incompatible and there's no way to upgrade it, and also Black & White as well as the Creature Isle expansion packs don't work.
As other people have mentioned, unexplained slowdowns and CPU usage is usually an indication of some kind of malware on your computer.
Make sure your virus definitions are updated and do a scan. Also, download an anti-spyware program and run it - virus programs don't usually catch spyware. CounterSpy (http://www.sunbelt-software.com/CounterSpy.cfm) is probably the best program. It's not free, but it has a 30-day trial, and it's only $20 to buy. A number of free alternatives: Spybot (http://www.spybot.info/) (already mentioned), Adaware (http://www.lavasoft.de/products/ad-aware_se_personal.php), and Windows Defender (http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/software/default.mspx). If you find anything, I'd recommend a system reinstall as spyware can be very tricky to completely remove.
As for upgrading: keep in mind that if you're going to do any sort of significant CPU upgrade, you'll probably also need a new motherboard, which in turn may also require buying new, compatible RAM. So if you're looking for a quick speed fix, RAM is the way to go. If you're looking to do some significant upgrading (basically a new computer), go with the CPU.
Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 20/10/2006 05:42:54
Like I said, the CPU isn't at 100% usage constantly. It just happens sometimes.
If you close everything down and it isn't sitting at 0% then you should be suspicous. 15 - 25% would indicate theres a lot going on there.
I'd say CPU.
I have 2x2,18 GHz dualcore CPU and 1 GB of RAM.
And never had problems or lag because of ram, though it's a bit too little for such system.
Simply no or very little disk trashing... CPU usage is 3% at most, unless I'm playing some 3D game,
and pagefile size is constantly below 300MB.
It's either more room to hold unprocessed data or ability to process data faster to get ram cleaned up faster.
And cpu wins here.
But If you have a *fast* hard disk, it shouldn't be a problem.
Mozilla seems to be major memory eater... 134MB of ram under Mozilla is like everyday situation.
Quote from: InCreator on Fri 20/10/2006 13:14:49
Mozilla seems to be major memory eater... 134MB of ram under Mozilla is like everyday situation.
Mozilla as in Firefox?
Are you sure? Wouldn't it use up more than 44,768k as shown on my task manager? (about 2-4% CPU usage, depending on how many tabs are open.)
firefox.
varies greatly from 60 to 130 mb, depending on tabs and page i'm viewing.
Currently: 63mb, only this forum is open
I'd kill Norton. I've always found that anti-virus software, though not overly system intensive, can cause sluggish CPU response.
Also, the Celeron is a budget CPU. From Wikipedia...
"A Celeron is any of a large number of different budget x86 microprocessors produced by Intel and marketed as a budget/value CPU line. The Celeron family complements Intel's higher-performance (and more expensive) Pentium CPU family. Introduced in April 1998, the first Celeron was based on the Pentium II core. Later versions were based on the Pentium III, Pentium 4, and Pentium M. These processors are suitable for most applications, but their performance is somewhat limited when it comes to running intense applications, such as cutting edge games or graphical modeling programs, especially when compared to that of their high-end counterparts."
So a 2.4ghz Celeron wouldn't be the equal to a 2.4ghz Pentium.
I don't think it's a simple as RAM vs CPU. I have 1GB of ram, and a 256mb graphics card, but because my CPU is a Pentium 4 1.8ghz, newer games need to be run with lower graphics/physics/resolution settings.
A PC with a Pentium 4 3ghz, but only, say, 256mb ram and a 32mb graphics card would have similar problems.
Finding the balance is the key.
(http://i11.tinypic.com/47do7xh.jpg)
6 hours
I've just been looking at CPUs to see what's out there. And I discovered something I didn't really know before. It seems that our motherboard uses socket 478 for the CPU, and this has been outdated. Like I said before, I don't really know too much about hardware (I'd like to learn, but I can't really even pretend to know what I'm talking about here), so I have a new question. Is it even possible to upgrade the CPU at this point without buying a new motherboard?
Either way...I'd like to know...is this (http://shop4.outpost.com/product/4927201?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG) a good motherboard? If it is, perhaps I could convince my stepdad it's time to upgrade, though I have more questions now. Fry's website shows this motherboard only has 1 IDE connector. This means that only one PATA HDD right? I'm ask because right now we have 2, so we would then also have to buy a new SATA HDD, or just run off the one HDD (which sucks for me, because most of my files (except a few programs installed on the main HDD) are on the secondary HDD). In the end it looks like upgrading the CPU at this point would entail completely rebuilding the entire computer.
Celeron just isn't made for high graphics game. It has low cache memory. It's made for offices, for people who only need office and internet, not for gamers. Now adding RAM would lower the CPU usage but it will not really help you running games. So yes you will also need a new CPU. And no, a modern CPU wouldn't work on a socket 478 motherboard.
As for the motherboard you posted, it's a good one. It's compatible with the Core2 techonology, which is the latest, has Intel chipset and all the slots you need. As for SATA hard drvies thay're much better and faster so you should use such ones anyway. However one IDE connector is good for connection two hard drivers\cd\dvd drivers. You could still hook up a DVD burner and an IDE hard drive plus SATA hard drives. Though I would recommend to dump the IDE hard drive and use SATA, it's faster. Notice that theboard however does not how an AGP slot but PCI Express slots, so you'll have to buy a new graphics card, which you already agree you need anyway.
So it comes to you need a new motherboard, 512 more of RAM, a new CPU, a new SATA hard drive and a new graphics card. Basically it's buying a new computer.
I don't see much point in minor upgrades, atleast when you're dedicated 3D gamer.
Mostly because a single shortage in one thing could nullify power of others (i.e lot's of CPU power won't help if you have weak video, etc). And computer technology makes jumps in every month.
It's simpler to buy a totally new system and sell old one.
This Frankensteinian computer of ours actually contains components from two old computers...which...actually at this point has been reduced to a CD-RW drive from one, a CD-ROM from another, and a "30 GB" (28 GB :-\)...the rest has died and been replaced...but the rest of the parts were bought specifically for the purpose of building this computer.
Personally I think the new SATA hard drives sound great, it just once again boils down to not my computer and not my money. Our current graphics card isn't an AGP card anyway (I assume because it's one of the older Radeon models?), but I would like to get a PCI-E one. So...I just have to convince the man we need 1 (count 'em, one) new motherboard, 1 new SATA HDD, 1 GB of RAM (just because I've already convinced him to get this...eventually...he thinks the CPU should go first), and 1 new Intel Core 2 Duo CPU. Sounds like fun...hehe...
In the process I could probably actually convince him to let me wipe out the master HDD (C), move all my files from the slave (D) over to C, setting it to be the slave, and set up the new...the nice new 300 GB SATA HDD as the master drive. Oohhh...doubling the HDD space I have available, doubling the RAM, new graphics card, new processor......sounds wonderful. If only.
It sounds like you're going down the path of complete upgrade. But it would be possible to just upgrade your CPU to a Pentium 4, which were also designed to fit in Socket 478. Yes, Socket 478 is outdated, and yes Pentium 4 is no longer in production, but I think it would give your system a nice boost. Snce it is old technology, just browsing on Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Category=34&N=2000340343+50001157+1050706985+1051707443&Submit=ENE&SubCategory=343), there aren't many options available.
I wouldn't necessarily recommend going this route, but I just wanted to be sure you're aware of this option.
Just so as we're clear, I don't want my stepdad to be aware of this option. ;)
But thanks! Really.
Nice deal (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2204123&Sku=SYXS-DB-989244):
Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Sat 21/10/2006 19:38:31Just so as we're clear, I don't want my stepdad to be aware of this option. ;)
Uh ... what option? :)
Have you looked at any AMD processors? I started going with AMD back when Intel was the big evil empire. I think they're a better value, and nowadays I think they're probably better processors too.
I tried discussing this with my stepdad...and...he really can't deal with the fact that I know more about computers than he does. He tried to explain to me that I didn't know what I was talking about about "the new" (aka SATA) HDDs...then when I tried telling him that he was wrong he just exploded and said, "Forget it! Forget about upgrading the CPU!!! I don't think it needs it anyway. I just think it needs more RAM!!"
....flippity flippity flippity flop. :-\ And he put me in a bad mood too...he's good at that. >:(
Quote from: LimpingFish on Fri 20/10/2006 22:41:44
I'd kill Norton. I've always found that anti-virus software, though not overly system intensive, can cause sluggish CPU response.
Sorry for going off on a tangent here, but how exactly does one go about killing Norton? I tried it once, but then found out that some dangerous Norton-ness was lurking behind the scenes not allowing new Norton-ness to be installed, but not allowing the old one to be removed either.
/me sees SVCHOSTs everywhere!
Time for the SVCHOST competition! I've got seven! ;)
Quote from: EagerMind on Sun 22/10/2006 18:32:37
Have you looked at any AMD processors? I started going with AMD back when Intel was the big evil empire. I think they're a better value, and nowadays I think they're probably better processors too.
AMD CPUs are great value at the moment because they are way behind the Core2 Duo on performance and have nothing better in the pipeline, so they can only win on pricing... but the Core2 wins out on "better processor" in almost every situation, plus a 4-core one is coming soon.
I've never had firefox take up more than 30mb. Skype is a resource-hog though.
Quote from: SSH on Mon 23/10/2006 15:59:10AMD CPUs are great value at the moment because they are way behind the Core2 Duo on performance and have nothing better in the pipeline, so they can only win on pricing... but the Core2 wins out on "better processor" in almost every situation, plus a 4-core one is coming soon.
That could be. I don't really keep on top of stuff like this unless I'm looking to upgrade. At the time, it seemed like the Athlon 64's were relatively new, and Intel didn't have anything in their pipeline to counter with. Typical escalation process, I suppose. Although, with processers as powerful as they are today, there might not be any reason to pay more for a Core2 Duo. I guess it depends on what you're after.
monkey, you got me beat. Only 4 svchosts here! :)
If you do alot of image editing, and I don't mean sprites but memory hogs like a 300dpi letter sized image, you should always foucs on more RAM rather than CPU.
I have this and I want to kill the computer :
2.00 gigahertz Intel Celeron
8 kilobyte primary memory cache
128 kilobyte secondary memory cache
Stay away fro the Intel Celeron. they are junk.
You know...everybody has one of these retrospective hate stories...but I honestly remember not liking the Celeron from the time it came out. I don't distinctly remember what I didn't like about it...just that I never did. In fact once I was looking at computers with my sister (in Best Buy :-X) and the salesman at first seemed to agree...then changed his mind and decided that Celeron was the faster processor and was better for games and things. :o
I assume overclocking isn't an option?
If you study it long enough you can get great results.
i agree with candle my PC (the one im on now ) has the habbit of turning itself off GRRRR steer well clear of em
I really really wouldn't recommend overlocking to someone who is not an expert like him.
And overlclocking a celeron is still just havnig a slightly faster celeron which still wouldn't work for his high graphics game. He needs a strong CPU and a strong video card for that.
Hehehe...apparently at some point my stepdad's save files on his game (I'm Going In 2: Covert Strike) got corrupted, but he didn't notice because it had been running slowly until I convinced him to get more RAM. Further inspection of our motherboard's documentation revealed an interesting..."feature"...
Our motherboard won't register any RAM as dual channel unless two memory sticks of equal size and speed are inserted in the corresponding slots (1 and 4, 2 and 5, 3 and 6). So, we settled on a 512 MB stick, which I...opened and installed while my dad was at work :=
That same day (Monday) I actually got around to disabling some startup items...which apparently resulted in the disabling of the printer spooler service...o.0
The upside to all this (save game corruption and unintentional printer disabling) is that my stepdad agreed to let me format the hard drive!!! What fun. Installing Windows has become something of a second nature for me as many times as I've done it. But this is the first time I've actually been able to activate over the internet. It's so much nicer than reading all those nasty numbers to the incompetent computerized operator. :D
Also I made it a point to ensure that I had Windows XP Service Pack 2 (Service Pack 1 is already on our installation CD...but it's small anyway) saved to the secondary hard drive before the format. Even with DSL it's still a helluva big file to have to download...which is why I did saved it after the last time we went through this formatting business.
So now I'm installing SP2, then I have to install some other system vitals (like the scanner and the printer) and we'll be functional again. After that I can reinstall my programs (the ones that I didn't already have installed to the secondary hard drive and/or ignored the installation directory and are now missing files). Well, looks like it's time for a reboot now!
Thanks again to everyone for all the information, opinions, discussion, and random babbling! :=