Real venture - but who would work?

[m0ds]

I'm really really really considering taking out a loan and setting up Screen 7 as an independent media specialist, that would essentially create family based adventure & educational games (thanks to CJ we have the software, if he allows us But of course he'll get 10%!) and hopefully expand into other areas such as film & music. The business side of things isn't too complex, games should take no more than 2-3 months to complete (afterall, people would be working 9-5, and be getting paid) - but what bothers me most is that the company would need 5 experienced induviduals. One in art, one in music, one in programming, one in design/storywriting and another in... Well, I'm not sure yet, so perhaps we'd get away with 4.

These people would ALSO need to specialise in another area, for example; (and these are names pulled at random!)

Me, music/sound, film
Miez, art, web development
Rui, story, manual/documentation creation
Gilbert Cheung, programming, jeans

That kind of thing. This way, the company could operate with many different products, adventure games, websites, book publishing etc. We would make our money by dividing our time up so as to work on a game for half the day, and our other areas for the other half (for example, miez would work on art for game x til 12.30 and then after lunch would work on web-designs clients have asked for).

I wouldn't want to start the company with any more than £10,000 - which should pay for an office space, computers & wages for the first 5 months or so, which would then mean a game would NEED to be published by that point, web designs would need to continue & other media areas would need to be expanded so as to earn more profit. We all know we won't make £10,000 from an adventure game (YET) unless its distribnuted world-wide & has a huge audience.

Of course, there will be room for development - more employes who may embark in 3D adventure games, and what not. However, the company would run a strict policy of creating games that do not focus on violence, sex or drugs.

I'm interested firstly to know if anyone of you is interested in a venture like this, and may be willing to work for Screen 7 in its initial days. If not, I will have to recruit using other means - but I'd rather work with people I know and can trust, and that I've seen exceptional work from in the past.

Let me know your thoughts

[Scummbuddy]

Gee, I wonder who could have sparked this recent surge in your interest. I couldn't have been talking to me yesterday.  :

But that's cool and all. You may think about not opening office space at least until the first game has been selling well. This would cut down your loan, and cut down the amount you have to pay back. I would just work out of someones home for awhile, but there definitly is something to working all together, in one area, not over the internet.

Your film department might be a bigger sell to the bank in terms of generating interest from them to lend you money.

[SSH]

Ummm, 10000 divided by 5 people for 5 months makes 400 quid a month. Since the average cost of employing someone is double their wage, thats a monthly salary of 200 quid a month. That's not going to cover the cost of living  for most of the people on the forums... and is also way below the minimum wage in the UK, which comes to about 700 a month. That's before you insurnace, rent, electricity, and count capital expenses such as computers.

First, hire an accountant who can do sums!

I think Ron Gilbert did an article on the economics of games making a while back.

You'll need to put together a decent business plan to persuade anyone to lend you money. The DTI website has a bunch of helpful stuff here, as my wife and I know from trying to put together a business plan for our own business.

Also, I think you'll be shocked at how expensive office space is. I know I was shocked at the costs for the places I looked at, admittedly this was more a warehouse thing than offices, tho.

I think it will only work on a distributed basis, to reduce costs, and paying people by work rather than hours. However, you lose a lot of control this way, and such projects are much harder to manage.

[m0ds]

Aye, the costs are far more expensive than I thought, but it may be possible to cost cut for the first little while. Office space in this area is about £4000pa, but as you said that would easily destroy any decent wage for the employees.

I'd love to work from home, but I really have little confidence in developing a commercial game over the internet, as you mention, Scott. Plus I see no possiblity in finding a local to help me, and the last time I checked my friends were best at drinking booze, and not much more - well, apart from music - but HEY, I have that covered!

I'm writing my business plan still, and hope to take it to the business manager at the bank in the next couple of days. No idea what they'll say, but from what I've gathered these people prefer soul traders, plumbers and what not. But then, computer game companies all started somewhere, right? It could be a flop, it could succeed, it could initiate & it could go bankrupt. I'm willing for that to happen so long as I at least get the chance and the experience.

Scott, sorry to dissapoint - but it was the fact I have 2 weeks to get a full time job or leave home that prompted this development But your chat certainly inspired it. I'd be interested to read Ron's article, but times have changed - starting up now is far different to in his day. Nowadays there are hundreds of initiatives for people my age to start up a business, all you need is a solid idea & a legitimate way of executing it.

I also know a few people who might back this idea, with some money somewhere along the line - but they'd probably need a fair bit of persuading! & Scott, I think you're right about the film production side. My only concern is that the loans manager may not accept that all these different things can be done together, but then that may be our strong point - proving him wrong!

Why don't you start up the Baltimore division?

[SSH]

m0ds, I'd love for this to succeed, though. All the best in it!

Ron's article, based on current-day economics.
http://grumpygamer.com/4904226

Also, I think you'll find that a lot of help for young people starting businesses are gone now, as they were exploited by the unscrupulous, or they only apply to certain in-very-high-demand jobs, liek plumbers anywhere near London, or to special interest groups, like ethnic minority lesbians.

[Grundislav]

Dream job?

Working with AGSers making games AND getting paid for it?  Yes sir!

Unfortunately, it's gonna take some convincing before I pack up and move someplace else to do it.  Like it has been said, I think the big investment should be made once the first game sells well.  I'm willing to do it, if it means I won't end up under a bridge in 3 months!

[m0ds]

Sweet! Thanks for the article Andrew, I'll have a read. & you may be persuaded, Grundislav! I'm trying to set up some initial money making schemes to cover initial employee wages, because I still don't see it possible to make a commercial game with the current resources I've got. But it may resort to that. If so, check back here in 10 years time

[Scummbuddy]

I still think the best idea, and tried and tested, is to create a game or several and sell them, and once you start making bankroll on that, then you can start to spend money. But cutting corners and cutting costs, especially at the start is key. If you weren't making a game that you didn't own the liscense to, I'd say you're on your way. But now, you'll have to finish that, and get at least street cred, and begin making original titles, sell those, and then think about moving up. I would love to start at the top, but realistically, like I said, I'm not going to hit the lottery to get that head start.

[Gregjazz]

Really look into the business aspect.

And you need to figure out how to market your games. There's nothing worse than having taken out a loan, paid employees, made the game, and then not sell enough to break even. Also, be sure you have your contracts together when you employ anyone.

[Lordhoban]

If you need help with filmmaking, I might be able to lend a hand in finding ways to cut corners... even so, filmmaking isn't cheap, either. Do you have local resources to rent equipment from?

Buying equipment may save you money in the long term, but it is a sizable investment. A good camera alone will cost you 1,500, with no accessories, and upwards of 3,000 with accessories. And that's on the cheap end of good cameras. That doesn't include sound equipment, which will set you back at least 700-1,000, and probably doesn't include a a good mixer, mixers cost 500+. There's also lights, which you can probably get away with cheaper. None of this includes the people to operate any of the equipment.

What film festivals are in the area? Do you know anyone decent and reliable you can get to act in your films?  Most of all, you need a vision, and huge amounts of planning. Experience does count for something. What makeup artists do you know?

Just a few things to think about.

[Gregjazz]

If you need help with filmmaking, I might be able to lend a hand in finding ways to cut corners... even so, filmmaking isn't cheap, either. Do you have local resources to rent equipment from?

Buying equipment may save you money in the long term, but it is a sizable investment. A good camera alone will cost you 1,500, with no accessories, and upwards of 3,000 with accessories. And that's on the cheap end of good cameras. That doesn't include sound equipment, which will set you back at least 700-1,000, and probably doesn't include a a good mixer, mixers cost 500+. There's also lights, which you can probably get away with cheaper. None of this includes the people to operate any of the equipment.

What film festivals are in the area? Do you know anyone decent and reliable you can get to act in your films?  Most of all, you need a vision, and huge amounts of planning. Experience does count for something. What makeup artists do you know?

Just a few things to think about.

El Mariachi

[LGM]

Wasn't the budget like, $6000 for Mariachi?

[SSH]

This site has a minimum subscription of £52 a year but does offer the possibility of gaining some serious capital for your venture.... 

[Nikolas]

Ok., it's not a bad idea at all. I think a lot of us had the same idea into our minds, at least I did, and you beat me to it.

Some thoughts, though:

For a company to succed you need to offer (i) something of quality.
                                                                    (ii) something original
                                                                    (iii) lot's of internet trafic.

I'm not sure if there is enough audience for AGS games. Yes the games are being downloaded like 50.000 times but, well it's free.

How are you going to persuade people to buy something that they can get their hands on FREE and not only that but also the platform to work on their own projects too?

Quality: Lot of the games here are not to professional standart. Of course there are some exceptions, but generally to make a game work, with all the technology today, it would be a waste not to use (for example) high quality samples to get a great soundtrack (and you can do that with EW Gold 324.99 £, but I guess you already know that). I'm a composer and I know that I can provide music of professional standard but what about the rest? I'm not talking about me, generally speaking...

Originality: What can your office offer that cannot be found in other offices. Or rather, why choose you to design my website or anything else?

Lot's of traffic: That can be done, rather easily.

The PROS:

You have a ready audience (The AGS community) and I'm sure that if a good game comes out most of us would be willing to pay for it. And it's not the same as donation or staff. That's totally different.

And an idea:

Before starting an office and a company and all why not get the 5 people you need, built a game and try selling it to see how it goes. I bet that you can find 5 people to work with you. Rui eg. is writting all the time, I don't think that he would mind trying to write a GOOD story line. I've already provided my services as a composer for free, and you can cover this area also. Meaning, just first make the game (The Good Game) and then see what you can make of these.

About money just divide what you get (the 90%) times 5. And you're there. What if the first commercial game of AGS does not fair good. Even if you sell 100 games that's 100*20=2000£. Divided by 5 you get 400£ each. Not bad to begin with.

And another thing. Apart from internet selling, try to see if you can find a way to sell things from stores...

Sorry for the long post. A lot to say (as usuall )

[mätzyboy]

I think you are going to find that it will be hard to loan money for wages. I think your best bet is to start out with a finsihed game to show potential investors and use the money they invest for promotion an advertising, and hopefully end up with enough buyers to gain money in the end... If you gain enough, it might be time to think about setting up offices and hiring people, but I seriously think it's the wrong end to start in, no matter how much fun it would be. I'd hate to see you drowning in debt!

[Nacho]

You need something that kicks asses to gain a little amount of money and have free publicity. My bet is for a film, a humourous one. You are young and have a GREAT sense of humour, so you just gotta make a 80 minutes film with things that you know are going to make people laugh. Also, with that dogma rules you don't need money... just good ideas.

IDEA: Why not "AGS, the movie?" Imagine each 200 of us pay 10 € for a copy. You got you audience... Use it. Lots of absurd humour and goofy portaits of some of the members, with a final scene in mittens 2006!

[Captain Mostly]

I think it sounds like a fascinating idea! I'd love to offer myself as someone who can program (a bit) and write stories etc etc... I doubt I've proven myself enough in the community to inspire confidence, but I'm un-employed so: WhatEVER!

Mind you, I'd rather it was all set up in Newcastle, because that's where I want to go live (I'm in the forest of dean right now) and, indeed, given the choice of screen 7 OR newcastle, I think the city would win... simply because my Boyfriend is there   

Still, it sounds like a brilliant idea!!!

[Layabout]

I will work for bed food and booze.

[Pumaman]

I'd certainly agree that as nice as it would be to start off with a proper office and so forth, it's a very risky path to take. Bearing in mind how many man-hours it takes to produce a good adventure game, it would need a lot of cash up-front in order to develop a game from scratch.

Perhaps starting off with something in your spare time as a team project with other people over the internet is the best start -- not ideal in many ways, but if you can make a success of a game, then that would be the time to make things more serious.

It might be worth having a word with the Himalaya Studios folk (ex-Tierra), if I remember correctly they dropped everything to work full-time on their commercial adventure game, and how much success it has should be a very good indicator of the market for 2D adventures.

[JeebusSez]

If i were living in the area, I'd totally be in to help out. I love the business-profit-venture idea and I've tried it a couple times to no avail (my partners are always bailing on me). Business plans are key, especially for loans. I don't know how it works over there, but usually an excellent business plan can net you a considerable loan with a low interest rate. And I can't help but echo how useful it'd be to have a game first, and _then_ start a company. It's always easier to start something when you have a huge platform to jump from.

And as for helping out, I edit digital video in my spare time. If you need an editor, you can just send stuff my way and I'll edit for dirt cheap (assuming you shoot using DV; it's cheaper and faster than film and stays clean with minimal generation-loss). I can also help out with any scripts; filmmaking happens to be a hobby.

Also, as a tip, if you start up a film project, you may be able to apply for LLCship and get a business loan that way, or even talk to investors to see if they'd be interested in sponsoring you; just present a secondary business plan (including distribution) and a script and/or storyboards (and concept shots as needed).