I don't want to be mean, but some of the games lately... Puh.
You people do realise that if you take time and care then you will actually reap benefits from game making, whereas releasing things that look and feel like 5 minutes work simply so that you can have a list of games on your profile is really, really lame.
Do the general public, of which I am one, really want to play your what could be classed as a test game? Or a game that has a lot of un-finished material within it? Please, stop releasing any old bollocks that you make in five minutes. Now, I don't want to put people off by saying this, really I don't. I'm still impressed that you're game making. But you're not telling stories, you're not induldging your audience with something interesting, nor are you catering for any audience that doesn't have skitzophrenia or is over the age of 13.
Plus, I just get the feeling some of the game-making competitions aren't being taken so seriously anymore, and that there is a real lack of pride at the moment. But then perhaps it's just opposites attracting. Some really amazingly awesome games emerge, and games on the complete other end of the spectrum counter-balance that.
Still, just take some care and a little more time, please?
Yup, yup.
Let's say you release "White pig's revenge" (Totally random title!) to the general public, a game you rushed out with no afterthought. Everyone hates it and resents you for wasting their time.
Now you go and release "Nelly Spookalot", an excellent title that you put all your energy into. Nobody plays it because they played the previous game, and thus, you failed to look after your REPUTATION.
It's all a bit like a tycoon game. :P But I agree with you there Matt. I'll probably never touch certain peoples games for a few years now, simply because they released rubbish to begin with. No offence. But as game-makers there is certainly a reputation to think about, even if it's freeware, even if it's just confined within this community.
PS: "ignoramous" - I love that word.
Allow me to be the devil' s advocate...
I have been here for... what? 4 years? And I haven' t released a game because I am ultra-prefectionist...
I can say that in this time I would consider as "deserved to be in my game" just 4 or 5 backgrounds I' ve made (of dozens) If I can' t get what I have in my head, I get annoyed and abandon the project.
So... whereas I basically agree with M0d' s statement (put more effort, please) I would encourage people to finish their first game, asap, without entering in a spiral of perfectionism.
Plan your backgrounds... Be sure which are going to be most important, and make a sensible planning to make them in time (One per week if they are important, 2 per week if they are not, is a good ratio, IMO)
Yep. The problem is that perfectionists don't do well in AGS-making. Sometimes you need to be able to produce some dozen backgrounds in a month, and then you must lower the standard a notch or two, or you'll sit there with your one and only super-background.
I know, because I've made hundreds and hundreds of backgrounds, I've created super-detailed 1600x600 backgrounds that've taken me two weeks each of hard work to complete, and back in '01-'02 when I worked on Tulle's World (may it rest in peace) I whipped up around 90 backgrounds in half a year, just to release something, get something with my name on out there.
It's always a balance.
Make a one-room game if you don't have enough patience, they can be pretty and professional and be fun to play as well. Just put some work in it, some idea.
Haha Mods, this thread reminded me of something, so I'll hijack this thread and announce this (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=30441.0).
QuoteYep. The problem is that perfectionists don't do well in AGS-making. Sometimes you need to be able to produce some dozen backgrounds in a month, and then you must lower the standard a notch or two, or you'll sit there with your one and only super-background.
This statement really applies to anything, Andail. As a perfectionist I can attest to never being fully satisfied with anything I do; the difference is that I have grown to accept my work at a certain point as acceptable rather than to keep working on it over and over. There is a point where you just need to walk away and say 'Good or bad, it's done'.
Quote from: Nacho on Mon 26/03/2007 21:47:09
I have been here for... what? 4 years? And I haven' t released a game because I am ultra-prefectionist...
I've been here for about the same amount of time, possibly a little longer, but I also believe that to be the reason I've never finished a game.
Would it qualify for this contest if I released a demo of a game? Also, can it be a game I've been working on for a few years already?
I agree to an extent. A little perfectionism is good, but we also need the small okay games. If everyone was striving to make great games, there'd be even less to see around here, and we'd miss out on some great ideas that would have otherwise died off. You appreciate a great game more if you've had to make due with some mediocre ones first. But yeah, a little more effort wouldn't hurt in some cases.
I've been working on my first game for a few years now (leaving my OROW entry out of consideration), and I'm really starting to realise now at some point I have to make peace with what I have. When I think of something new, or a big improvement to something, I always say to myself "Ah well, I'll save it for the sequel. Can't give it away all at once."
You'll be able to see any progress I've made at making games when mine is done (In oh a million years from now) if you'd played my first and only game.
My macaroni cheese is done, excuse me.
My macaroni cheese is never done because I'm a perfectionist.
I agree, it is important to put some effort in your games. It's not just nice for all the people around here who play the games put also satisfying for yourself. It's great to read a few positive coments on your games and as long as you tried your best you'll get positive feedback.
On the other hand, I don't like perfectionism, at least not for my games. Non of my games is perfect and they will never be. I like to finish my projects, I don't like it to work on one story more then a few weeks. There are so many ideas in my mind...
A good balance between perfectionism and a finished project is the best way for most people (there are some projects where it's more important to have a perfect result rather than something finished, of course (FoY for example))
I do understand people who release their first, rushed projects. When I came here first I just wanted to release something, but I didn't, not my very first game at least. And I think some other shouldn't either.
there is a definite slump in quality, 3-4 years ago when i did MAGS, i was up against some really good short games.. mine sucked! but i was sh*te at coding in AGS, i did try tho lol! i learnt a hell of a lot from it never the less
i'd love to do monthly games but alas i'm not doing AGS at the moment :(
I'm concentrating on getting short (some would say too short) games made.
Because they're so small, I can give equal time and energy to all aspects of them. Heartland Deluxe took me over six months to finish, and it only took that long because I wasn't giving my full attention to it until towards it's completion.
But I'm happy with it, because I managed to finish it without having to compromise. I didn't make it just to say "Hey look! I made a game!".
Which some people seem to do. They don't really care about the quality, about how the game may affect any credibility they may hope to gain with further games. They just want to get something out there, and get some attention.
The truth of the matter, as I see it anyway, is that they don't really care about making games as a long time hobby/career/whatever, they just want their 15 minutes of people talking about them.
Of course everybody is entitled to make a game regardless of their abilities or motivations.
But I officially joined the AGS community in May 2004 (unofficially 2002), and didn't release anything until June 2006. Some very talented people joined even before that, and still haven't released a finished game. Which is fine.
On the other hand, some people join up, make production threads one after the other, and never finish anything. They get an idea, make a production thread, lose interest, get another idea, etc, etc. What's the rush?
They seem more interested in "becoming someone" on the forums (a ridiculous desire for faceless people to find them "cool"), PMing moderaters about this and that, and generally behaving in a way that annoys normal forum Joes and Janes, and culminates in exactly the opposite of what they wanted.
I realize what I'm saying may sound snooty, even elitist, and I destest the labelling of "n00bs" and their persecution on the basis of the date they joined.
But creating something in two minutes, sticking it up on the forums, and expecting anything other than for people to say "What the hell is this meant to be?!", isn't going to be very satisfying.
Then again...
I also realize that my stoat-powered soapbox has veered slightly off topic, so I'll stop ranting.
Everyone seems to be forgetting to put themselves in the mindset of the new AGSer.
Whenever you're just starting out, you don't realise your games are crap. You don't notice that your graphics are poor and you don't appreciate that your plot isn't much.
But it's the first thing you've made, and you're still proud of yourself for your ability. You want to upload it and say, "Look, I made this." You don't notice that it's quite poor in quality because it's the first thing you've done, and in general, it shows the end product of a creative process.
I remember I was very excited to show off what little I had done when I was just starting out. I thought it was the bees knees. It wasn't, but I thought it was because it was done to the best of my abilities, such as they were.
But I'm glad I did make those early blunders, and I'm glad people noticed that I could get better. The trick is to just constantly make things and become practicsed. I'm still learning myself, but the learning experience is invaluable. People aren't just waving their flags, they release things because their proud of what they can do and they want to share it.
A good rule of thumb is "don't release the first thing you make". I learned this from making music, and I applied this rule also to my AGS CAREER.
Still, in retrospect, the first AGS related things I actually did unleash upon the ezboards weren't much better than the stuff I kept for myself...
Quote from: Mr Flibble on Wed 28/03/2007 00:32:20
Whenever you're just starting out, you don't realise your games are crap. You don't notice that your graphics are poor and you don't appreciate that your plot isn't much.
But it's the first thing you've made, and you're still proud of yourself for your ability. You want to upload it and say, "Look, I made this." You don't notice that it's quite poor in quality because it's the first thing you've done, and in general, it shows the end product of a creative process.
I disagree. There is a difference between "just starting out" and having no apparent talent but continuing on regardless.
Bad art is different to art that has been created without any thought to its quality at all.
Your description of "first time agsers" appears to me to be quite close to the mindset of a toddler, who digs a muckball out of the earth and presents it to his parents with a big proud smile on his face.
These people have had experience of games in the past, I presume, and at least have an idea of what a game is supposed to look like. Few people decide to make a game without at least having a passing interest in games, and
some artistic ability that they feel they can transfer to the medium.
If you're starting from scratch, then you shouldn't be releasing anything. You should be studying and practicing your art/writing/music, until you have confidence enough to put it into practice.
Parents don't put their four year-old on stage in Carnegie Hall, hand them a violin and say "Play. The audience will point out your mistakes." The kid learns in private, with other kids of a similar ability, until a time comes when he/she can play for an audience.
Not to notice something is "quite poor" in quality, means you lack the critical faculties to learn and develop your own work.
Unless we
are talking about children. In which case, it's
still too early for them to be releasing "games".
Of course, the real problem lies with the fact that the term crap is really subjective. Especially since were dealing with all different age groups. If I release something at 14, which might blow my mind at the time, everyone else above a certain age might not be so impressed.
The problem with game development, as I see it, is that it's such a time consuming process, that regardless of the end result, you're still proud of the work you've done. You're proud of the bad graphics, you did yourself, of the music, plot, and code you did yourself. It's hard to say, "Well, I've made this and it took me a good deal of time, let's not let other people see it."
When things are given to us for free, I don't honestly care if it's crap or not. Yes, I'd prefer someone have some criticism's done, and fix all known bugs, but if it's the best they can do, then release it to the public, get some feedback, and work on it.
We also have the problem, that there is not too much to learn from game making, other than trial and error. There isn't a bunch of dusty books that hold all the theory behind creating games. This isnt't to say there aten't any sources of knowledge, it's just not abundant.
All in all, unless you charge me for a game that's crap, I don't really care. I can always delete the game.
-MillsJROSS
Quote from: MillsJROSS on Wed 28/03/2007 07:33:46
The problem with game development, as I see it, is that it's such a time consuming process
I think this is particularly pertinent in the adventure genre where you generally have to script every possible event and outcome. You don't often have interesting aspects of gameplay that simply emerge like you would perhaps in a fps or strategy game. The ratio of production time to actual playing time is extremely high and can be quite offputting (as I found in the a-team game when I spent three days on a room that you simply pass through without stopping).
Are we really in a quality slump? Sure, some people are releasing crap games, but more than a few top notch games have been seeing the light of day recently, and that's not just limited to the recent wave of commercial games, either.
I've released crap games as jokes, but I'm simultaneously working on real games that go to eleven. So... get ready to piss your pants.
Maybe.
LOL Mills. Well you of all people know legendary games can be formed out of crap. :p You're lucky though. You have the patience, or open mindedness to sift through the poop. I can't handle it quite so well!
Erenan - not a slump as such just a spur of posting lots of bizzare games! Perhaps things that should be left on HD's, but if people really want the enjoyment of their first works to be enjoyed then fair enough. I guess there's different entry levels for everyone and not everyone will hold out until they've made something that would appeal to a "lorra lorra" people. Or maybe it already does and we just don't know about it. The most of us have probably posted things we've made very early on and joke stuff too - me included - so maybe it is a good thing. But, lately, there have still definitely been games on these boards which really didn't warrant an online presence. At least I don't think so. Maybe that's being brutal but it's generally better and games are generally more fun when people really understand their player market (which around here is mostly us) and on these boards its better to see works of material people really are proud of. And can be certain others will be proud to play to. Were you proud to play a niggas revenge? It's almost like, yes, well done - you can make something on AGS, great. Future titles; The Dialog Box, also; A Message Box Containing Hello World II. It's just HD material, not internet material. But I strongly agree that there are still lots and lots of highly superb titles being produced too. People just feel they can slip their tests in there too. Completed Games Board isnt an extension to the Critics Lounge.
I generally enjoy checking out new material from new people on the boards. It's good to see what kind of talent really lies behind them. It's not to say some aren't untalented, anyone giving this kind of thing ago has some guts & a definite interest. But when you play things that just make little to no sense, or just aren't thought out - just tests for example - it's a shame. Maybe I'm wrong and I don't have the same background some developers do where these kind of in-game events are spectacular occasions. Who knows. Still, I'm sure it will continue - and I'm not that bothered. Just don't blame me if I don't enjoy it & find it "crap". By putting it online you've asked for an opinion and that could be the one you hear. :P
Yes, I agree. People seem to think that anything they've created is appropriate for the Completed Games forum, and this simply isn't so. Of course, what I was actually thinking about when I posted was about whether this slew of poop is a new thing. I haven't been around here all that long, so it's difficult for me to tell if this is a normal thing or not. Is what's happening here actually outside of the norm? Maybe that doesn't even matter, as it's probably not a desirable thing in any case.
Considering the first game ever released was Lassi's quest, I think we can all be certain that we've have a slew of "crap" games since the beginning.
-MillsJROSS