Revolting!

[Eigen]

This topic probably doesn't matter to most of you here, except for some fellow Estonians. But I hope it matters to else too. Let me start from the beginning. In Tallinn there *was* a statue, called Bronze Soldier, put there for the dead unknown Soviet soldiers who fought in the Second World War. (As Sovient sees it: Freeing us from facist Germany). But our government recently, last night, decided to remove the statue and move it to a more proper place, some cemetary. But Russia, and local russians see this as a mock of the memory of these soldiers and Soviet Union as a whole. And last night things really went crazy. Angry russian mob (a. 1000 people) gathered around the park where the statue was to show what they think of it. Basically it was smashing down all the nearby stores, flipping cars and plain stealing. And then they are ignorant enough to justify this and even laugh while doing this. This is first time in Estonia btw.

Anyway, as of this morning, Russia cancelled diplomatic relations with our country, also other limitations I don't even know about.  BasicallyI couldn't easily travel there anymore if I wanted to. Which I don't. And how do you think Russia media covered this? Calling Estonia facist and nazis, only showing the footage where the local police is pushing back the mob, only interviews from one side, *not us*. But that's common in Russia - propaganda that is. I wished they had shown the footage where local rus. teenagers where carrying out stuff from store, stealing that is, smashing windows, and doing all kinds of cr*p.

So, don't believe russian propaganda, because I'm sure they start in Europe pretty soon to show how much of a threat we are and something should be done soon.

P.S - Just a week or more ago, in one town in Russia, a statue of pilots who fought in the WWII was just torn down and of course that was justified.


Sorry, I just needed to vent. I just can't stand those russians anymore. Sorry to those AGS members who happen to be from there

Also .. "Be happy we're letting you live here and speak your language." as said by someone in the mob. This shows the overall feelings.



Also read this
And check this image


-Eigen

[Nikolas]

I would imagine that this is what, sadly, always happens in the media. It's always one sided, and takes lots of effort to find info on the other side...

I hope it all goes well in the end...

[MrColossal]

Hasn't the Russian press been told to only report "happy" news? Happy being defined as the weather and anything that doesn't cast Russia in a bad light?

If so then of course they won't show Russians doing anything bad however their only fooling themselves..

And by that I mean! HEY! THERE WILL BE NO BASHING OF OTHER COUNTRIES BESIDES THE USA ON THESE FORUMS! Russia is a great nation!

[Eigen]

They are a great nation indeed, but for some reason they are sooo easily gullable by the media and their leaders. And whenever you note about something negative around there, it's "interfering with their politics" and considered as a threat/insult. Rather hippocritical.

[Radiant]

Bad spellers of the world untie!

[Tuomas]

The problem here seems to be the quarter of the population that is in fact Russian. They, most probably most of them moved in back in the days of war, when Russian moved army headquarters and such to Estonia. Now these people are still Russian by nationality, but take Estonia as their home, and by 1991 were in a likely better position that the majority that really is Estonian because of Soviet governing. Now suddenly they were separated, as Soviet Russia fell. Suddenly these people are a minority on foreign country that is still a bit hostile for them, which is completely understandable.

At times like this the Russian government wishes to stand behind their won people who live in estonia, and that's why are on the side of the revolters. But the way they're approaching the situation is completely wrong. First of all, yelling at estonians doesn't make it easier to those who live there, instead when Russia makes tough accusations liek this and threats towards Estonia, the aggression that builds up is directed to those who are the "enemy" but nearer and more vulnerable. The ones that live in Estonia though have no reason to hold on to the silly statue but their identity as a 100 year old minority and what they're defending is what Russia is running and this to point out to Estonia that they are still there and should be respected as a part of the country. I thinkit's a vicious circle. But with the truly capitalist government that Estonia has, I don't think it'll be easy for the Russian minority for a long time.

See, most young easter European countries moved from utter left to right the first place and this happened here as well. Same thing happened in Hungary, and now they're fighting their "fascist" governing. You've seen the riots, I've seen the nazi tags on doors and walls. And this makes it even harder for the Russians that live there. Now Estonia vote for NATO, and George Bush came to visit them, and most of the front of the country was there kissing the red carpet clean before him. And this isn't helping with the Russian minority either. Now they brought missiles and bases to Estonia all headed towards Moscow or ST. Petersburg, so it's understandable that the Russians who lived there their whole life don't feel so safe anymore. And true, if any kind of war should happen between NATO and Russian federation, they woul be the first one to suffer within the borders. I don't blame them, but the problem is, that with such controversy inside, the country went from far left to clear right, and that really mixed up everyone's feelings. And I believe there's a change ahead.

Now added that accusations by Russia are completely ridiculous and are nothing but a hostile verbal attack on Estonia. And as I see it, the point behind all the propaganda is to keep the image of Estonia as an enemy in their minds so they wouldn't go too friendly. I should think this would not have happened if they never joined NATO, which, in no way is of any use to them, was there a war or not. But as Russia is, even the Finnish media is scaring us of the communist Russia, which is no way true, but still it shows in how a number of Finns hate Russia for what they have done to us, while they close their eyes from what is happening around them all the time. I can't demand that from Estonians though, they've been free for 16 years only and are a new state with lots to learn. But the only way to get rid of such things is to compromise, after all, 25% of people are a large minority, and will always make a difference. THe point is not what Russia thinks but why the people are rioting because of a statue. Well, for one, the statue has almost nothing to do with the whole issue.

Just some points from what I love to do, studying international politics But this is actually intriguing, I'm going to Germany on the 11th next month to an international seminar on minorities, and I'd love to hear what the Estonians have to say about this.

[Eigen]

Now added that accusations by Russia are completely ridiculous and are nothing but a hostile verbal attack on Estonia.

There have been accusations troughout our independent years, but this is different and really serious with actual act. Deep inside I'm afraid a little that they might use actual force because this is the perfect excuse. But I'm sure this won't happen..

But the only way to get rid of such things is to compromise, after all, 25% of people are a large minority, and will always make a difference.

This plan came after a long time of planning and consideration and it had to be done. Of course with threaths from the other side during that time. I personally think it was executed well but also I couldn't care less of the statue. The sooner we get rid of all the signs of occupation (of course it's only occupation for us .. ) the better.

And yes, the statue has nothing to do with the whole thing. It's just an excuse.


And good luck with the seminar Tuomas. I'm sure there will be Estonian representatives there as well.

[monkey0506]

Bad spellers of the world untie!

Thank you, thank you, thank you! You are the best member of this community ever (second of course to CJ)!

[evenwolf]

Eigen, are you certain there were no diplomatic or even covert happenings beside Estonia officials moving the statue?   I mean, if its part of a bigger issue moving that statue would definitely have been symbollic to these mob goers.

If all of this was strictly in response to the moving of a statue, then I'd say Russia has overreacted no doubt.  Sorry for any changes this might cause you in the near future, but you never know- maybe this was a kneejerk reaction and it'll be settled between the two governments soon.

[Tuomas]

No, as said, there was a long history behind all this, the statue was just the trigger.

[voh]

Russia needs to stay out of this and accept Estonia is its own country.

Russian-descended Estonians need to shut the fuck up and accept that the time they're longing for is over.

If you're a Russion, go to Russia if you love it so much. If you're a Russian in Estonia and you've accepted that Estonia is your country, screw the statue that symbolizes Russian rule over Estonia.

All in all, I'm kind of bothered by the fact that it happened, but on the other hand, meh.

Russia is weird. Putin is happily aiming towards a breach with all other NATO-countries, and in the end it'll get what Putin wants - Russia as a state which can do whatever they want. As long as he's ready for the consequences - whatever they may be.

Putin's a bad man. Bad, bad, bad. If he had hair, maybe he'd be less bitter, but sadly, he has none.

[evenwolf]

Tuomas, while not familiar specifically I kinda figured.  I really want to travel to Europe and Asia someday.   For all the disputes among countries, I think it humbles people in a good way to have these heritages and relationships like you do.  There's a sense of vicinity. 

Being isolated over here, Americans definitely have little to complain about.  Canada and Mexico really don't bother.  Our isolation accounts a bit for the "us vs. them" mentality we have.  That's something I can't deny.  That the US thrives on lack of diversity. 

I'd part from the US for years just to travel, and live in a place like Estonia perhaps, just to spread a little diversity back home.

[InCreator]

Second night. Second riot.
Over 300 drunk, teenage shitheads arrested. There's no room to put them into anymore!
The city center in ruins, looted and wrecked. The cars, the stores... wounded policemen...

And goddamn CNN is writing this...

Juri Zolotorev, 65, said the monument meant a lot to him and he did not understand why the authorities had to disturb it.

"It was like spitting into people's souls," he said.

Now look here...

http://www.postimees.ee/galerii/index.php?picture=18823&galoffset=0

And here...

http://www.postimees.ee/galerii/index.php?picture=18870

and here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJfhdxaWO_U
(English! The video maker is a bit wrong about "people protesting", but it doesn't matter; what matters is that if me, born Estonian happened to wander anyone near there (the Center of my home city!!!), I would be either injured or dead.)

Do you see any over-60 people here?
...WWII veterans whose only wish was to have a bronze statue in the center of our capital, to gather there in every May 9th, drink vodka and remember their dead brothers in arms?

Even despite that it's the same statue, which - to most Estonians - symbolizes Soviet occupation, mass killings and rapings, along with looting back in 40's, quite similar to what happened in last 2 days? Restricting our language, flag, songs, everything. Estonians celebrated Christmas secretly, because it was restricted. And any neighbor could be NKVD agent or even worse, KGB. Children fucking sang songs about Lenin in schools to prevent their parents from repression, or more likely, execution. Which also happened if someone was crazy enough to sing our anthem or wear even clothes similar to our flag colors.

The government proposed simple solution - to move statue where it fits better. Like a war cemetery, so Estonian shouldn't see this image of historical terror and horror in center of his capital city. Cemetery, where are the graves of those veterans remember. Right place for the statue. What was SO bad about this idea?!
Well, this was the statue. And the problem.

There's lots of normal, integrated russians I know. Many are my friends, colleagues etc. Really nice people. Some of them speak russian only - and what the heck - I can practice mine! Other demand me to speak only Estonian - to learn better! Heartwarming. They feel well and comfortable here, and there's no way they would want old ages back or to move back to Russia. They like our democracy

But rioters? These are not those veterans. Or the normal people I know. These are young shitheads, either drunk teenagers wanting to fight - or over-40 losers, who just aim for destruction and loot. Who have lived here for decades, and for last 16 years, in a Republic, but still totally hate and ignore the fact that this is not Soviet Union (read: Russia) anymore. Those who deny our laws, language, history, occupation (they call it the freedom and we should be thankful) and traditions.
They get upset when they realise that in business, tv, schools and everywhere else people speak estonian, and not russian, as it was during Soviet era. That it's been already 16 years since Union broke and they MUST get over it, learn local language and learn to get along. To make all these programs and millions of dollars put into integration programs worth it and actually use them. Or pack their three things, and hey - border to the "motherland" is only 200 km away, who stops them? Get the f--! where they came from, if they don't like it here.

They hate the language. And that they have to learn it. Like, hell why?
Where's the logic in this? Imagine that your surgeon/teacher/local police constable speaks only chinese. Or esperanto. Or whatever. And if you don't like it, he goes and starts wrecking the city. And calls you a fascist.

Most of these suckers don't have any idea, what's the statue-fuss was ever about, and what does "fascist" (that's how they call Estonians) actually means or who the facists were.

Discriminated? Opressed? Minority? Righteous?
This is a horrible bullshit. Every estonian can speak russian at least enough to communicate. Russians? I know many who - after 40 years of poisoning our soil, can't still say even "hello" in estonian! Not that they can't, they WON'T. Our state TV channel has russian news program. There's lots of russian schools everywhere. All major webpages have russian alternates. Infact, almost everything has russian alternate, to make them feel more comfortable and integrate easier. The probably most impressive sight in Tallin is the Nevsky Cathedral, which is Russian Orthodox one. Noone steps on their religion either.

The photos show quite well how they thank for any of this.
For accepting them every day, despite the pain their nation caused to ours for over decades.
Despite that they still deny any occupation, families waked at gunpoint and loaded onto animal train wagons to a uncomfortable journey to Siberia. To die in wilderness and work camps.

I live in a part of Tallinn, where's much more russians than estonians. Talking estonian is enough to get beaten up by random russian gang here. Not only now. It has been like this forever. Everywhere.
Russians don't have problems like this. Since, by nature, russians always move in groups, and are aggressive. Well, and drunk.
Estonians, in other hand, usually mind to their own business and we never had any riots before. Even departing from Soviet Union was done without firing a single bullet, but by holding hands with Latvian and Lithuanian people and singing national songs. Singing!

But these locusts who just flattened my (and THEIR OWN) hometown are not people. And any empathy has lived its age.
I still can't believe why someone could empatize to people like this.

God I hate them.

But veterans? Veterans either feel shame for their grandsons and -daughters, or are too senile to understand anything anymore.  Or are too nostalgic about Soviet Union and want this back. But none of them supports the destruction of our cities.

The supporters? They sit in Kremlin.

[Eigen]

The government proposed simple solution - to move statue where it fits better. Like a war cemetery, so Estonian shouldn't see this image of historical terror and horror in center of his capital city. Cemetery, where are the graves of those veterans remember. Right place for the statue. What was SO bad about this idea?!
Well, this was the statue. And the problem.

It's not a bad idea. We know it, and they probably know it too, but it's just a damn good excuse to stir up everything. I've been to the statue myself a couple of times and it doesn't FIT there. Right in front of the national library? Now .. come on.
And if everyone is soo upset with disturbing the peace of the dead soldiers then why didn't anyone bring any flowers to the military cemetary where rest of the monuments and things are. Right, you don't get to be seen on tv when going there.


Unlike InC, I personally don't know any russians. I used to know a few as a child, but they all learned estonian and even tought it to their friends. So it probably has something to do with upbringing.

But I do hate those bastards who just laugh into our faces and not learn the language, because they don't HAVE to. They can work and live easily without speaking any estonian. This is what concerns me the most - the attitude towards us and our country. The days you ruled over us are over! Smash that into your heads instead of display windows and cars.

The supporters? They sit in Kremlin.

Indeed, the support comes from Kremlin. Because they *control* the national television and media in Russia and how this event
was covered is pretty much brainwashing everyone. The sad thing is, that most of the foreigners around here watch broadcasts from Russia instead of our local. So it's like wearing a blindfold. I saw and heard the interviews of russian politics and even foreign-minister and they all say that Estonia is bad, evil and a threat to "Mother Russia" ... crazy! And now the people who are not shown anything else believe it. Brainwashed.



And check this image I can see from their faces that they are upset with the whole event. Nooot! They just enjoyed wrecking and stealing .. and then calling us *bad words* .......

[radiowaves]

This thing is crazy! Fact is, no-one doesn't even seem to care about that monument, people just use it as an excuse to riot and steal. Its quite discusting to see some 13 year olds yell "Fashists!" while I doubt they know anything about history...
What pisses me the most, is that Russian government supports it with their false propaganda and people buy it so cheaply.

I don't know much about politics or so-called tactics but I hate it when people steal or destroy someones hard work just because they want to. Go grow your own crops goddamnit!

[Tartalo]

Trying to understand what can lead to such absurd, I checked my ignorance about Estonia against Wikipedia.

The History of Estonia is an endless succession of invasions by Germany, Sweden, Russia, Denmark, Poland... Who not?

Liberation? What an euphemism, Estonia was sequentially invaded by two totalitarian empires after agreeing it on a paper, that was a really bad place to be during WWII. I am surprised you even are able to keep your own language.

[Tuomas]

I'm glad that when I opened the tv, i saw the news, and there were videos of people rioting and kicking in windows and a police line drawing nearer, nothing about police brutality, but more like of what the rioters are doing. That's what I like about Finland, we have free media. I realised there has also been a lot of Estonian groups demonstrating and fighting with the Russians. And this is something no-one would like to see. Oh, and the Finnish ex-ambassador said that there was no way this would have happened unless the riots were organised by someone or something, and planned before. I don't understand why the government decised to move the statue just before 9th of may...

[Eigen]

Because 9th of May is the day when "The Soviet Union declared victory" and all the supporters celebrate this day. Last year, people gathered to the Bronze Soldier and bought flowers etc and it went pretty crazy, nothing like it's happening now though. People were even traveling here from Russia. Previous years have been rather quiet on the other hand.

I am surprised you even are able to keep your own language.

Well, during the ocupation, it was planned to "russianize" our country. Schooling in russian, estonian not allowed at all, disallow our coulture etc. But the regime fell before finishing with this. Otherwise I would have had to learn russian already in the first grade. Bah, don't want to even think about that.

[InCreator]

I don't understand why the government decised to move the statue just before 9th of may...

1. Dirty stupid politics

Our prime minister gave a promise during election few months ago to do it. To remove the solider. People who feel offended by the statue, voted for him. Which made it the major promise of the party and therefore, couldn't be not done.

2. Nationalists

There was quite many stupid Estonian radicals, who went at the statue often, and threw paint on it, brought flowers made of barbed wire there to express their attitude against the statue and it standing in the middle of the city. This led to arguments with Russian veterans who were there for quite different reasons, like bringing real flowers and honoring it. Which turned the place into conflict zone right in the middle of the city, and considerable security risk for country. Even that wasn't too important, police was up to its task and avoided things getting violent, but then, there was always...

3. Russia

...who - until today, has used every single excuse to blame Estonia, forces their media to forge unnumbered ridiculous accusations against us. Spends crazy sums on negative propaganda. With his main tactics - labelling local russian ethic goups harrassed by us, even one stupid nationalist or skinhead yelling at veterans in the middle of the city is too much fuel for their propaganda machine. This has been going on for a year, and it was very last time to get rid of this statue. Because first more serious conflict happened at last may, 9th, and this is where it started. Casual days, there's very little of veterans or nationalists at the site, but this is the day where masses gather. So, to avoid new excuses for russia to smear tar, PM had to prevent it by removing the statue.

It's not just us. There's Latvia are Lithuania, but Estonia, as most advanced, controversial and known of these three, is on the front lines.

With this man giving lines like this,

He is also well known for his boasts pertaining to other countries, having expressed a desire to reunite countries of the ex-Soviet "near abroad" with Russia, and dreaming of a day "when Russian soldiers can wash their boots in the warm waters of the Indian Ocean".Zhirinovsky has been quoted to the effect that, among other things, Russia should retake Alaska by using force, construct large fans to blow Russia's nuclear waste into Germany and the Baltic republics, and use nuclear weapons against its adversaries.

...also, suggesting Russia to retake Baltics by brute force.... and considering the mentality of russians, taking every word in the media and their leaders as pure gold, another serious provocation is very last thing we need right now.

But now, it's too late. Ethical crisis are back and hell knows what comes next.

[Layabout]

The Russians are still pretty much the same as they were as the Soviet Union. They are not as friendly as they make themselves out to be...