Russia and Georgia.

[radiowaves]

I feel closer to Georgia than I feel to Spain. Geographical location does not matter. Why be such fundamentalists?

[vict0r]

Well then, seems like Mr. Medvedev has ordered russian troops to stop the attacks. They're not pulling back out yet though, but they probably will if everyone else agrees with their deal.

[Nacho]

Sure Waves... The feel of being closer to a country can be so strong that we put those feeling aside to tell "who" belongs to Europe or not.

That's why we use the geography.

That' s why Georgia is basically Asian. I don' t know why Snarky is being so fundamentalistic about that...  :

[radiowaves]

Sure Waves... The feel of being closer to a country can be so strong that we put those feeling aside to tell "who" belongs to Europe or not.

That's why we use the geography.

That' s why Georgia is basically Asian. I don' t know why Snarky is being so fundamentalistic about that...  :

yeah, but why does it matter wether it belongs to Asia or to Europe in this point?

[Stupot]

What has Georgia's European-ness got to do with the war with Russia?  We've just wasted two pages of topic on this argument, and it's irrelevant.

[EldKatt]

So much internets... wasted...

[Nacho]

I don' t really know this started! Someone said "Oh, no! I hope you europeans do not start with a war in your territory again!" Then I replied "Georgia is not Europe". Then Snarky said it is... And I don' t really remember the rest. All I know is that the discussion is worthless indeed, since it doesn't matter... Nobody is less, or more, for being european, I guess...

Anyway, the whole thread is pointless, since war is over. And third world war between the Russians and the States seems will have to wait, Stupot!

[Snarky]

"Parts in Europe" is not "It' s geographically Europe", as you said previously... It just means that "Some parts (the fewer) are in Europe".

Well, yes. If it sits on the border of Europe and Asia, then it is geographically in Europe--and in Asia. That seems pretty straightforward to me.

I think a lot of people are used to thinking of Europe as just Western Europe, and it's easy to forget that Europe stretches all the way to the Ural and the Caucasus, and that in addition to places like Belgium or Sweden, includes such charming countries as Belarus.

That's why we use the geography.

That' s why Georgia is basically Asian. I don' t know why Snarky is being so fundamentalistic about that...  :

Dude, geography is only a part of it. We count Iceland as part of Europe even though it's closer to North America, because it was settled by Norwegians in pre-Columbian times.

If the discussion was about whether Georgia had anything to do with Southwest Asia, too, then of course it does. But your utter refusal to consider Georgia as a part of Europe is what's fundamentalist here.

While the nomenclature doesn't change the conflict and is mostly irrelevant, I think the excuse that it's "not Europe" can easily be code for "it's not our problem". Which it most emphatically is. Also, the argument seems tied up with the angst about extending the EU to countries outside of Western Europe, and particularly Turkey, on the basis that they're "not European" (which is truly irrelevant--there's no reason why EU membership couldn't be extended to non-European nations). An argument with a whiff of xenophobia.

(That's not to say that Turkey is ready to join in the near future: their recent constitutional crisis shows that democracy is still fragile. However, they did resolve it, which indicates that they're moving in the right direction. Georgia's unresolved territorial issues, similarly, would probably have kept it from becoming a viable NATO or EU candidate, and unfortunately this war seems to have made matters only worse.)

[EldKatt]

While the nomenclature doesn't change the conflict and is mostly irrelevant, I think the excuse that it's "not Europe" can easily be code for "it's not our problem". Which it most emphatically is.

I'll let Nacho speak for himself about whether he agrees or not, but to me, these words, and this entire line of thought, seem to be yours, not his. Why is a conflict any less "our problem" because it's far away, or on the wrong side of an entirely arbitrary line? China is certainly not in Europe, and I'm sure you agree here as well, but that's no excuse for me to flip them off. At first glance, lacking as I do any kind of knowledge of who you are, your statement here seems to be revealing your attitudes far more than they do Nacho's. Just saying.

[Nacho]

Nah, I agree with Snarky. I am a xenophobic and a nazi....  And a homophobe too

EDIT: Spelling...

[InCreator]

What has Georgia's European-ness got to do with the war with Russia?  We've just wasted two pages of topic on this argument, and it's irrelevant

It really has NOTHING to do with geographical location. Georgia is a democratic pro-western country bordering Russia.
It's like an image of random other european country. Or even USA. I know that culture room. I LIVE IN IT. My russian-speaking and native-root neighbors put russian federation flags on their window and walk around city with evil grin. Even though they were born and raised here. For russians, it's 'them' and 'us', It's really that simple and sinister... Georgia, for Russians, is 'them'.

We are ALSO 'them'. Westerners. Europeans.

And Georgia is being attacked by Russia with overwhelming military power.

That's the whole importance...

--and the big question is either--
What will world do about it?

--or if everyone stays so stupidly uncaring--
Who's next?

I'm quite tired of this discussion and cold aura of ignorance bordering blind stupidity levitating here really hurts my feelings. So I won' discuss this any further. After all, as last days have proven, time is the wisest one. Everything will be clear in time, and as it seems, everything goes to deeper shit over time.

Sigh.

[Nacho]

The thing is that I agree... I didn't had my opinions clear the first days, because of ignorance, but I tried to gather as much as info as possible and now I basically agree. Russia entered in another country (Which in my dictionary is "invasion") and fucked up things... Not only for protecting the ossetians, but also the following days, after the cease fire treaty, and just because Putin is an asshole and wants his country to be as powerfull and it was when he was young.

But I keep my opinion (Well, anyone who knows a bit of geography would agree) Georgia is not Europe (Geographically talking)

It's common that when is needed to put a boarder in a mountain, the line is set along its highest points of the mountain chain. Georgia boarder with Russia is at the highest elevations of the caucassian mountains, which points, together,  form a line... Everything at the south is Asia. Everything at the north is Europe.

I don' t know what happens in your country, but if I lived 10 meters below the highest point of a mountain, in the skirt that belongs to a valley called "Europa valley" I would say that I live in the European Valley... I wouldn't say "I live 90% in the European valley, but a bit in Asia valley" or "I partially live in Europe and Asia valley"... It' s silly.

Maybe you, the ones who have been deffensive about those FACTS are the ones who should examine your opinions. I wouldn' t ask for someone to be European for helping him if he is suffering an unfair treat. I would try to help or I would sympathise with him NO MATTER the place he COMES FROM. It is you who associated my "they are not european" with "They are not european, so, they don't deserve my help". That thinking has never been in my head. Maybe was it in yours, in an unconscient level, Snarky? I don' t know... I think not! but you should think twice before calling someone you don't know xenophobe.

[InCreator]

Bah. I simply don't want to wake up because Russian tanks are rolling through block. Would you?
T-90 tank has highest speed of 65km/h. Border is 200 km away. They would be here in less than 4 hours, before most of nation would even realize.

This has happened more than once in history (only once in my lifetime, phew), but threats are coming from this imperialist kingdom of evil on daily basis. Last year, during a major russian riot, it might had quite simply end like Georgia today. Russian teen punks trashed capital city, police arrested them... and Russian news showed fake stories how "police is beating people" or rather "they dare to touch ours"...  Actually police had untold (or told?) order to stand down, not to provoke our evil neighbor... Everybody knew this and simply looked powerlessly on tv how local russians trash home city...
And we don't have really those missiles and tanks Georgia has to even last as long as they did.

Russia is testing patience and limits of NATO and EU all the time. Georgia was bigger test than it had ever been. A test too critical for global safety. Only few people -- or rather - nations -- realized it.

Three highest leaders of Baltics, and leader of Poland flew to Georgia yesterday (presidents and prime minister) since those 4 countries (of which one is mine) know damn well how reactive whole situation is. For us, it's a bit more real than "someone, somewhere, war, something".

Europe watches news as boring action movie. And we're small and the voice is weak. And EU has ears full of cheap oil and gas.

I don't feel very safe going to bed tonight.

[Stupot]

InC, man. I understand and apreciate your concern about the situation but I was merely trying to get the topic back onto "Russia and Georgia" as it was descending into a debate about where Europe meets Asia and this is of little importance to the issue.

Your point about the "them and us" attitude of Russia was a good one, and something I was unaware of. But I don't really think Russia went to war with Georgia for being European, and they would need a better reason than that to go to war with any other European country.  I honestly didn't mean to hurt your feelings with my ignorance and blind stupidity.

[Snarky]

I'll let Nacho speak for himself about whether he agrees or not, but to me, these words, and this entire line of thought, seem to be yours, not his. Why is a conflict any less "our problem" because it's far away, or on the wrong side of an entirely arbitrary line? China is certainly not in Europe, and I'm sure you agree here as well, but that's no excuse for me to flip them off. At first glance, lacking as I do any kind of knowledge of who you are, your statement here seems to be revealing your attitudes far more than they do Nacho's. Just saying.

I did not say that this is what he thinks. I said that his argument bothers me because it provides cover for those attitudes.

Where to draw the borders of Europe is not a politically neutral question. One of the big controversies over EU enlargement, and specifically with letting Turkey in, has been over the argument that it's "not European" (i.e. "not one of us"). In that context, it was pretty unfortunate that Nacho's first post on this issue referenced Turkey and Cyprus (another focus point for controversy).

But I keep my opinion (Well, anyone who knows a bit of geography would agree) Georgia is not Europe (Geographically talking)

It's common that when is needed to put a boarder in a mountain, the line is set along its highest points of the mountain chain. Georgia boarder with Russia is at the highest elevations of the caucassian mountains, which points, together,  form a line... Everything at the south is Asia. Everything at the north is Europe.

I don' t know what happens in your country, but if I lived 10 meters below the highest point of a mountain, in the skirt that belongs to a valley called "Europa valley" I would say that I live in the European Valley... I wouldn't say "I live 90% in the European valley, but a bit in Asia valley" or "I partially live in Europe and Asia valley"... It' s silly.

It is routine to include in the list of countries of a continent any country that has any part of itself in that continent. This makes sense. For example, most of Russia's land area (more than 3/4) lies in Asia, but it would be ridiculous to deny that it's a European country. Besides, since Europe is mainly a cultural, historical and political construct, geography is not the be-all, end-all of the question. Armenia lies just outside the geographical area of Europe, but is nevertheless often accepted as a European country (it's a member of the Council of Europe, for example). I already mentioned Iceland, and you brought up Cyprus, although those are islands and therefore more ambiguous.

This map offers a good illustration, and appears to show Georgia about evenly divided between Europe and Asia (though this appears to be inaccurate by the Caucasus watershed definition).

It really has NOTHING to do with geographical location. Georgia is a democratic pro-western country bordering Russia.

It's a shame that Saakashvili tarnished Georgia's democratic credentials earlier in the year. "Emerging democracy" may be a more honest (though still upbeat) term.

Georgia clearly bears some blame for this conflict, with irresponsible brinkmanship going back the last several years. And not to forget that they were the ones who attacked. And Georgia's history has plenty of ethnic and regional tensions. For instance, the breakaway republic of Abkhazia, which Georgia claims, has historically had some level of autonomy from the country, and part of the reason why there used to be so many Georgians there (before they were ethnically cleansed in the war in the early 90s) was that Stalin and Beria (chief of the Soviet secret police), who were both Georgians, repressed the Abkhazians and encouraged immigration into the region by Georgians.

Moreover, the fact that three separate regions declared autonomy almost as soon as Georgia was formed after the fall of the Soviet Union, and have been effectively independent (at least from Georgia) up until this year does not speak well either of the popular support of the Georgian state in these regions, or of the government's ability to administer the country. (Obviously, changing this fact and reasserting the government's authority was a major priority for Saakashvili, and one of the factors that led to this conflict.)

[Nacho]

We were discussing different things... You went by the political/cultural side and I went via the geographical one... We don' t even dissagree. It' s okay. 

[EldKatt]

I'll let Nacho speak for himself about whether he agrees or not, but to me, these words, and this entire line of thought, seem to be yours, not his. Why is a conflict any less "our problem" because it's far away, or on the wrong side of an entirely arbitrary line? China is certainly not in Europe, and I'm sure you agree here as well, but that's no excuse for me to flip them off. At first glance, lacking as I do any kind of knowledge of who you are, your statement here seems to be revealing your attitudes far more than they do Nacho's. Just saying.

I did not say that this is what he thinks. I said that his argument bothers me because it provides cover for those attitudes.

Does it? I can agree that it is not a politically neutral question, and that its political implications were, as you say, "unfortunate"... but in the particular sense you talk about, it only expressly "provides cover for those attitudes" if you subscribe to "those attitudes" in the first place. Why should you?

I'm not bothered by his argument providing cover for some random scary attitude--any argument can do that if you're inventive enough. The random scary attitude itself is what bothers me. If you're building your case for "caring about Georgia" on it being European, that's where the problem lies, because your argument, in that case, is much more directly providing cover for not caring about countries which certainly are not European. I don't need to give you a bunch of examples of where that's undesireable. So however your post relates to Nacho's or whatever, fact of the matter is that on first glance, the former rubs me the wrong way more than the latter does. That's all.

[Snarky]

If you had never entertained the notion that anyone could care less about things that happen far away than those that are up close, you must live in a better world than I do. I think that acknowledging that those attitudes are out there is a more pragmatic stance than to idealistically pretend that it's not an issue.

I don't like it when people spread misconceptions under any circumstances (you never know when they're going to become a meme, like that stupid idea that we only use 10% of our brains), but when those misconceptions can so easily be used to rationalize prejudice or indifference I like it even less.

So where does that leave us if there's a crisis in, oh, say Nepal, Burma or Zimbabwe; places that are genuinely remote? I guess we have to use other arguments. At least there can be a discussion based on factually accurate information, even if people's attitudes aren't what you'd like.

[Nacho]

Sorry, but the "Nacho is spreading misconceptions and inaccurate informations" argument that you are using as a base for your latest posts is starting to touch my balls a bit...

Georgia is not Europe. At least geographically, its north boarder line coincides exactly with the accepted division between Europe and Asia:



You don' t like "misconceptions"? Ok... Here is one. Yours:

If you had never entertained the notion that anyone could care less about things that happen far away than those that are up close

Matching "Belonging to the same Continent" to "distance" is a misconception.

Example:
Spain is 14 kms. away of Africa. Spain is 4,000 kms. away to Georgia. If you are right and Georgia is Europe, then I should care more about a war that is 4,000 kms. away than another happening 14 kms. away, because according to you Georgia is Europe but Marocco not.

Sorry man... that is stupid. If a war starts in Marocco I would be equally worried for the human aspect that if the war was in Georgia, but I would be selfishly more worried about if the war starts in there, because the shit is more likely to arrive here in that case.

Other examples in the other direction also work... There might be a war that is quite close to me, let' s say Mauritania and Argelia that would affect me (IN THE HUMAN ASPECT) in the same way that a war happening in a longer distance, let' s say Estonia and Russia. Anyway I would be more EMOTIONALLY involved in the second one, since it's more likely that the baltic war can affect me than the african war, since their influence to Spain is higher than Mauritania or Argelia. I agree with you that we tend to identify ourselves with some conflicts more than with others, but your will to match that emotions with "distance" or "continental coincidence" or things like that are genuinely yours, not mine.

So where does that leave us if there's a crisis in, oh, say Nepal, Burma or Zimbabwe; places that are genuinely remote? I guess we have to use other arguments. At least there can be a discussion based on factually accurate information, even if people's attitudes aren't what you'd like.

I repeat: The innaccurate information said in this thread is your statement that Georgia is Europe, not mine. About matching "remoteness" with emotions, again, your ideas, not mine. I think I was the first saying that some people here should take less attention to the nimi conflicts started by the US and take more care about some other bloodiest (and longest) conflicts in the world. I am saying that we shouldn' t protest about the war in Iraq? No. I am saying that we should protest about the other conflicts too.

All your posts go to the same direction. Assuming that I have some feelings that I don' t have. Putting in my head ideas that I haven't expressed. I told you once, and I repeat. That "attitudes" are not mine, so, it' s impossible that you have found them in me. From where do that ideas come from? I don' t know, but maybe you should examine yourself before starting psychoanalysing me, dude.

[Stupot]

It doesn't matter if the war happens in Europe, Asia or Antarctica it's just as important to the rest of the world.  But this argument is still pointless... you're not arguing about where Georgia is... you're arguing about where the European border is... and that really doesn't change a thing... I can't understand the reason for this discussion and I've only gone and lowered myself (again) by posting this...