Why hasn't anyone started a topic on this yet?
I just saw the clips in the news and it really saddened me to see all those peoples homes destructed. Damn sleazy Russia!
Clearly pre-planned course of events. Now its not only the matter of South-Ossetia, bombs are spreading forward. It is expected that Tibilsi will fall under attack soon. However, I am glad to hear that Georgian Army has started a good strikeback. If it were only in my power to help Georgia..
RussiaToday:
"The fighting in South Osstian capital, Tskhinvali, is continuing with Georgian troops once again entering the city. There are reports that Georgian Special Forces have been throwing grenades into basements where women and children are sheltering." Someting tells me not to absolutely believe this.
Why oh why did you make this thread?
There is no brave and courageous heritage of ancient teutons or franks left in Europe.
They either emigrated into US during 19th century because that's where action was, or were shot at front lines in WWII.
All that's left are cowardly ostriches, head deep in sand and asses high up to make any aggressors feel comfortable.
pshaw!
What can we discuss about this? I don' t know the politics involving those events and I don't really care. I only hope it ends ASAP with the fewer casualties as possible.
What's there to know?
Let's say... a group of chinese emigrate into France, area near German border.
Some of them live in france, some of them in Germany. All near the border. So some of them become french and other become german.
Then, suddenly, ones that live in france become separatists and decide that they want to join their France area with the one over border, become a country. Even worse, they try to claim land to be part of GERMANY, not independent country.
Should government of france like that? Lose land to rebellious immigrants? Of course not. Problems occur. Separatists make mess, rebel against country they're living in (France). Germany likes the separatists, it's giving excuse to fight with neighbor. So...
Then Germany sends its "peacekeepers" over the border, to support separatists. Instead of peacekeeping, wild west goes off.
Thing ends up with Germany invading France.
That's the thing here, Georgia being "France" and Russia is "Germany".
I wouldn't say it's a minor thing. And living in country that was occupied for a century by Russia - for a whole century and exact same "excuse", It's damn horrifying.
"only hope it ends ASAP with the fewer casualties as possible."
It ends when Soviet Union is restored. Mark my words. Casualties are least of concern here.
Then again, this mess has alot of Georgia's guilt in it, too. Sadly, "world policing" USA won't probably squeak much here, because there's still forces in Iraq, not for much better excuse.
I think both sides are being equally petty, but Georgia blatenly kicked off this particular conflict... and you can just tell that America is itching to get involved in a war with Russia (despite their obligatory "calls for peace"), and as soon as she is we can forget about finishing our WiPs.
I was quite sure that SOUTH OSETIA wanting to sepparate from GEORGIA to join RUSSIA was going to end into bashing the United States...
USA has spoken quite alot already about the conflict, more than I imagined they would.
I only hope that there will be actual steps too.
Otherwise, NATO is simply a joke. Georgia was an inch away from joining, as I understand... I think it will make quite clear reason about Russia's itch to "aid the separatists".
But that's how the world powers work, I guess. If Russia would become too friendly with Mexico, and start building rocket bases there, I'm quite sure USA would find some stupid reason to start a war with Mexico right away...
I'm not bashing anyone, just commenting on the way I see things. If this gets much worse, Georgia will be expecting the US to help out.
I believe US does not want to go into this. Its definately not itching to be in war with Russia, otherwise it would be WW III too. The reason behind is that USA is still itching for Iran, and Russia is supposed to support them. USA is playing the double game, most sleaziest of them all. Only thing USA is concerned about is that Georgia was the strongest point of force and democracy in Russian border and a very valuable segment for future western politics with Russia.
Also, as georgia is quite strong, there might be other attacks too, if Russia wins. Then the line of former SU countries have been weakened. Basically it has been stated that every country who has Russians in it, should fear, because basically that was Putins statement.
This is awful! I have friends in Atlanta. I hope they're ok!
</stereotypical American>
Baddum Tish :D
Oh, damn, I hate wars.
They create some angry little people who say that they are doing the right thing, follow the right ideals and they create some angry little people who say that the first angry little people are bad and evil and should be punished for whatever they've done.
And both camps of these angry little people stay in their comphy llittle homes, showering each other with fecalia and doing nothing about the matter.
That's why I make my schoolfriends learn physics and chemistry at school, so we can make many nukes and explosives and estabish a new world order.
Ok, silly question here. I know little about Russia and Georgia.
Aside from the secessionist issue, is there anything extremely valuable in Ossetia? Industry, natural resources? Or is this more of an identity war?
Sorry, I understood that you were putting the USA in the discussion because you were paranoid or something.
Now I see the truth! You are not paranoid... It is just that you are confussion, GEORGIA, capital TBLISI with GEORGIA, capital Atlanta! :D
Quote from: aussie on Sun 10/08/2008 11:03:01
Ok, silly question here. I know little about Russia and Georgia.
Aside from the secessionist issue, is there anything extremely valuable in Ossetia? Industry, natural resources? Or is this more of an identity war?
Large oil and gas pipelines for first... Being control maniacs, easiest way to upset them is to leave them out of business.
But I don't think russia cares about resources that much. It's more of wiping off the "shame" of losing heavy amounts land when Soviet Union broke... Ukraine, Baltics (**shudder**), far east...
It's about imperialism. To this very day, even a decade later, Russia acts like they own us, and our independece is simply a joke. Europe makes a nice face in this rotten game, because cheap gas and oil are more important than any principles of democracy. Or Union.
I've been watching Russian news for awhile, and it's absolutely incredible. Incredible how 3 major TV channels show theatre instead of news. There's word 'genocide' in every sentence, endless "proof" that Georgians are bad, heroic glow all over russian paratroopers... Their media has always been a joke, but I never thought propaganda machine has THOSE limits in russia. If I was a Russian and living in this media space, I would conscript right away... Because that is played to be so believable.
If Americans knew how to make such a farce and did it, there wouldn't be a single protest against Iraq war.
I'm quite sure it will fool the news of West too. Though, I liked it when reporter at CNN said "thanks for YOUR version" after russian emissary spoke.
As for me, I believe in order. If I start misbehaving in my country, police will lock me up. If I do so with a gun, trying to make my own country, military will shoot me. This is how it is and should be.
That's why I heavily dislike all sides in this conflict.
I guess no-one brought this up before because no-one really knew what was happening, and a thread with answers like here would have resulted. As it did.
I think it's a bit biased to go bash Russia before you get into the matter a bit more. So South Ossetia is an area with an ethnic minority and separatist agenda. Has been since '90 when the Soviet Union came down. And at the same time it was granted de facto independence. Now that Saakashvili was voted president of Georgia, he their relationship has gone a lot worse. He clearly stated, that one of his major agendas was to unite the whole Georgia, that also including the area of Abkhazia. It was his move to bring in the troops to South Ossetia to calm down the restlessness in the area, to which the Russian reacted. A lot of South Ossetians have changed to Russian citizenship lately, and there's almost more of them than Georgians there nowadays. Realise, that the rest of this ethnic group live in North Ossetia, which is a part of Russia, and they wish to join these.
Well NATO won't help them (who?). Georgia was not a NATO member, though Sakaashvili wanted to bring the country closer to the west and join it too. Lately, NATO has been building bases to old Soviet countries near Russia, and we all know how they reacted. Russia doesn't want to be surrounded by NATO countries. And Georgia can't be a member before they're united, be it through a treaty or a war. NATO doesn't allow in countries with separate, independent areas like these two. That's why Saakashvili had to go there. There's a similar reason to Russia's moves. If nothing else, they want to keep Georgia out of NATO. The west won't come in. The US won't risk a war with Russia just to defend a country that's pretty much useless for them. There is oil in S-O, sure, but that's not the whole reason.
We allowed Kosovo to separate from Serbia already. It's no wonder there's more active and intensive separatist actions and movements everywhere. It's a small scale Yugoslavia there too. The problem is, that the whole area (Eastern Europe) is filled with people with different religions and backgrounds. And states like that can't really work as long as the minorities are not treated equally. There's always a reason why they'd want to leave, they wouldn't do it for nothing. Perhaps we'll have Ossetia, perhaps not. Most probably Russia won't let North Ossetia take their leave, as was done with Chechenya. It's not really all that different.
That post is flawless, Toumas... except if you honestly think that we made a mistake with Kossovo... (Which is something I consider... Just to make it clear: It was ok to go there and make the humanitarian effort, but I am not so sure about if the political stuff was so good)
Not flawless, I realised I misspelled Saakashvili ;)
Honestly? I don't think it was a mistake, letting Kosovo separate, but it was a bit hasty, seeing as there was no visible intention in even trying to get Serbia agree with everyone. They still haven't accepted the thing, and then, one begins to wonder, is it really our business to decide about some other countrys internal matters. There was a lot of discussion around it. I followed our former president, Ahtisaari working on it for years, but in the end, the way they finally decided, it seemed a bit hasty. As if they had ignored every suggestion made earlier. Perhaps Montenegro separating first had something to do with that.
I'm worried (and angry at Russia!) because...
Have you watched Saakashvili's speech on CNN or BBC?
He's saying just what I think.
Whole last century, Russia used EXACT same excuse to invade different countries.
"Ours live there, they're being killed, all hair savior, the great motherland".
It never was about saving anyone. All those countries were simply occupied. Joined to Soviet Union.
It's history repeating itself god-knows-which-time...
During communist era, in many countries Soviet Union sent forward a rebel force or set up an agenda, so-called "fighting worker class" who's main objective was to create provocations, create unrest, take a beating from policing power of that country and take over when Red Army came over borders to "help" them.
If everyone will sit on their asses and Russia would really conquer Georgia under this totally fake "reason", it would create another precedent... We don't know if it would really happen though. Yet.
If it will, however, Ukraine's most likely "next stop".
In which case, no country neighboring this imperial beast would be safe.
And yes, it WILL have impact on rest of the world. Nobody's realizing that yet.
Still, it makes me wonder, what would a country as large as Russia do with a place half the size of Luxembourg... Russia states at the moment, that they support South Ossetia's independence. I guess that wouldn't 'officially' mean invading it or adding it to Russia. I don't see Russia conquering the whole Georgia either. They really don't need it, or the issues it would bring, with all the unsatisfied Georgians. At least it's not about spreading communism anymore.
It' s difficult... maybe there is no a "correct answer".
Let' s talk about "A" country and "B" region.
If "B region" wants to sepparate, 99% of the times "A" region wouldn' t be happy. "A" region won' t allow "B" to sepparate if "B" uses just political paths. That can be unfair.
If "B" remains in "A", "A" would be happy, but "B" unhappy.
If "B" region wants to sepparate, "A" won' t allow per se. If "B" uses weapons, "B" goofes, even if "B" cause is fair. "B" becomes unfair... but some other people consider that what "B" does is a just cause.
If "A" uses weapons to keep "B" with them, even if "A" cause is fair, "A" goofes. But again, some other people might consider "A" is acting propperly.
If "B" region has a majority of "B" populators, there might still be "A" populators that wouldn't be happy if "B" becomes independent.
Which cause is fair if, in "B" country they was an original "A" population that has changed to a "B" majority?
As you can see, a lot of questions to reply, and they are not easy... I just hope it ends ASAP.
I would also like all those people (*) who protested for the war against Iraq protest now as strong as they did, but asking that people to be consequent might be too much.
(*) (And by "that people" I don't mean you, honest, pacifist and well intentioned forum member, but those who used the war of Iraq with political intentions, without giving actually a fuck about the iraqi population)
I'd still try to find truth in facts and order.
If a region wants to separate, it depends heavily what is that region about and who lives there.
For example, if people who live there are rightful owners of the land through history, a country annexed and occupied at some point in history - just like most of Eastern Europe was after WWII, they should have right and backup from world to reclaim their long-lost independence and do things their own way...
Then again, if those people never had any rights for the land and are simply immigrants, they should not have right to make a new country. What would americans say if - for example, all russians in USA (and we know there's millions of them) would suddenly pull a flag up in the middle of Colorado and say "A new country will be here!". And start shooting guns?
What would happen is US army would kill or arrest them. They wouldn't have right to do so. This is how law and order works. And should.
But would Native Americans to do so at their areas? Instead of living in reservations, claim what was theirs?
They would have right.
Then again, army would still mince them.
And now, some third country comes and starts attacking USA, saying "we liked those russians/natives".
Who's totally out of place in this picture?
The problem is where you draw the line... For example, Israel belonged to the cananeans, hebrews, philistines, romans, egyptians, assirians, babilonians, brits... Where do you put the line in the storyline and say "HERE! The populators in THIS period are the legitime owners"
It's difficult.
Well in the case of Palestine the Britts were the legitimate owners. They got it from the Turks who got it from all those other guys a 1000+ years ago. They involved themselves in a war (WWI) which they and their allies lost. The price they paid for peace and to keep their home country, Turkey, was to break up the rest of their empire and give it to the victors. (see Wikipedia here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Eastern_theatre_of_World_War_I#Peace_Treaty.2C_August_10.2C_1920) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitioning_of_the_Ottoman_Empire+) for references)
I mentioned Palestine as an example of "when do we draw the line". I didn' t want to start a debate about that... :)
(Anyway, as you said, RickJ, even if the legitimate owners were the Britts (you specifically said "were") now they must be the Israelians, since the Britts gave it to the Israelians...)
But as you will see in a few posts, somebody won' t agree with me (us). It works perfectly for explaining my point, which is that these issues... are complicate.
South Ossetia is Georgias land. There are mostly Russian people there, and lots of immigrants. If those people want to go to Russia, then they should go, and leave the land for Georgia, because they don't belong there in the first place.
Russia is so lazy, its got a huge land, but all of it is rotting. it has always jerked off on others recourses and work. They act like wherever Russian goes, its now his land.
However, this doesn't go to all the russians out there. Some of my very good friends are russians, and they seem to be understanding people.
Quote from: radiowaves on Sun 10/08/2008 19:39:56
If those people want to go to Russia, then they should go, and leave the land for Georgia, because they don't belong there in the first place.
I'm afraid it doesn't work that way.
Quote from: Nacho on Sun 10/08/2008 19:37:57
But as you will see in a few posts, somebody won' t agree with me (us). It works perfectly for explaining my point, which is that these issues... are complicate.
It's a common opinion in the west, and especially in Scandinavia, that Israel is the baddie. A friend of mine, who's from Israel got mad at me for asking these, apparently everyone there knows how we feel about them. Well I told her I don't have an opinion, or won't, until I see some prove to who's right and who's wrong. So she gave me her views, and it seemed pretty much what the Palestinians tell us about themselves. Dunno.
Though it's easy to stand against huge powerful states like Russia or the US, both are VERY hated around the world, both are like big brothers, who use their time to tease you, trip you down and sit on you or just smack you and eat your candy. Israel is more or less one of these, we've got France and the UK here in EU that everyone basically hates for their position. Israel is a country with a nuclear weapon and a lot of history on the war scenario, it's really not very hard to think they're the bad guys. After all, if you have to be afraid of one, you can't really start respecting them... In a sense. Of course, I'm not afraid of anything, military-wise, but economy's completely different, let's not bring it up now. I'm fully aware of Finland's history with the Soviet Union, but I don't see it coming back. Some do. There's a lot of hatered towards them and a lot of admiring towards the US, probably more than you could imagine. Finalnd is said to be the most American country after US itself. But we tend to hate Russia too. It's so easy to stand against something big... Unless you have to go and meet them face to face. I'm sure then most would just make compromises.
A bit off topic here, sorry.
Radiowaves, I realise you're very passionate about this subject, but can we please not start another war here at the forums. At least, if one of our Russian memebers would come in, it's probably not bee very nice if they said something about your home. Even though I doubt not a lot of people would disagree with you.
Also, Aussie, care to elaborate how does it actually work?
"Explaining the crisis (http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/10/levs.georgia.explainer.cnn)" is a video on CNN.com that wraps things up very well. They even list the reasons of both sides in the fight.
What they won't tell, I did. Russia's reasons are centuries old, heavily tested and blood-covered lie.
Quote from: Tuomas on Sun 10/08/2008 19:51:53
Also, Aussie, care to elaborate how does it actually work?
I simply think it's much more complex than that.
Even if those people are Russian they may have lived in Ossetia for generations. If not, their children might be Ossetian born and raised. When people are deeply rooted somewhere you can't simply say "they don't belong there, they should go". What about their homes, livings, jobs, social relations...? What about mixed families?Come on, there might be a complex political controversy here -with vested interests and what not- but there are also
people involved.
I don't know much about this particular conflict, but I would say that you should be allowed to feel Russian in Ossetia - the same as you should be able to feel Australian in the US.
*******************
On a different note, I tend to agree with Nacho. Maybe it's because both Nacho and I live in Spain and we're seeing something a bit similar with the Catalans (of course there are many differences with the case at hand, and fortunately there is no war involved).
Quite a few Catalans currently think Catalonia should become independent from Spain. If they had their way, that'd be great for them. But what about those who feel both Spanish
and Catalan? Would they not belong there anymore? Should they leave Catalonia? Should they be allowed to stay
only provided that they changed certain customs (language, etc)? And of course, you can look at this problem from the opposite position too. Those Catalans who do not feel at all Spanish will always be unhappy with the status quo.
As Nacho says, there are times when it's hard to tell what the "correct" solution is. Particularly with regions where the population has mixed feelings about their national identity.
Hey man, don' t agree with me so deeply, I have a reputation!
Well then you've got to watch what you say from now on, since I too tend to agree with you here.
Also, Aussie makes a good point. Don't think I'm being an ass, asking you to elaborate. I just wanted the view up wholly without having to say it myself :) And yeah, one thing I agree with, when I said some solutions can be a bit too hasty is, that spearatist places still have the people, who want to stay, but can't because of some "idiots" or just some who think otherwise. Well, usually they vote for it, making sure, that a clear majority wants the same thing.
Quote from: aussie on Sun 10/08/2008 20:04:44
Quote from: Tuomas on Sun 10/08/2008 19:51:53
Also, Aussie, care to elaborate how does it actually work?
I simply think it's much more complex than that.
Even if those people are Russian they may have lived in Ossetia for generations. If not, their children might be Ossetian born and raised. When people are deeply rooted somewhere you can't simply say "they don't belong there, they should go". What about their homes, livings, jobs, social relations...? What about mixed families?Come on, there might be a complex political controversy here -with vested interests and what not- but there are also people involved.
I don't know much about this particular conflict, but I would say that you should be allowed to feel Russian in Ossetia - the same as you should be able to feel Australian in the US.
What about their homes, eh? I am quite sure most of the homes are now destroyed anyway.
I am also quite sure they were able to feel Russian in Georgia, very much. I've been living in Russian regions in Estonia also, and its very disturbing when a russian person yells at you that those estonian fucks should speak russian... Some russian patroiots are just pricks like that.
Quote from: radiowaves on Sun 10/08/2008 22:34:59
What about their homes, eh? I am quite sure most of the homes are now destroyed anyway.
I am also quite sure they were able to feel Russian in Georgia, very much. I've been living in Russian regions in Estonia also, and its very disturbing when a russian person yells at you that those estonian fucks should speak russian... Some russian patroiots are just pricks like that.
As far as I know I haven't denied any of that.
I'm not trying to start a parallel war here or defend the Russians. All I'm saying is that "They don't belong there, they should go" is too easy to say. As I tried to explain above, it's way more complex than that.
Also, I can't help thinking that you might end up in nazi Germany if you pushed that slogan to its ultimate consequences.
Quote from: Nacho on Sun 10/08/2008 11:25:38
Sorry, I understood that you were putting the USA in the discussion because you were paranoid or something.
Now I see the truth! You are not paranoid... It is just that you are confussion, GEORGIA, capital TBLISI with GEORGIA, capital Atlanta! :D
Heh. I was actually not paranoid or confused. Just joking! Hence the "</stereotypical american>" bit.
Quote from: Vince Twelve on Mon 11/08/2008 09:10:11
Quote from: Nacho on Sun 10/08/2008 11:25:38
Sorry, I understood that you were putting the USA in the discussion because you were paranoid or something.
Now I see the truth! You are not paranoid... It is just that you are confussion, GEORGIA, capital TBLISI with GEORGIA, capital Atlanta! :D
Heh. I was actually not paranoid or confused. Just joking! Hence the "</stereotypical american>" bit.
I think he might've been aiming that at me, as it was me who brough America into the conversation... I may not be the most politically and culturally informed member of these boards but I'm not a total dimwit... I was just referring to the US's friendship with Georgia and their understandable interests in the region.
Paranoia or not I still think the US is Jonesing for a skirmish with the Russians...
In Soviet Russia, Georgia invades you.
No, wait...
You all saw this coming, I hope.
Georgia (not autonomous region of S-O) is invaded now.
Still keeping peace in troublesome region?
Or occupying a whole country along with the region?
I toooold youuu sooo....
Time to go after scapegoat, teh evil Saakashvili. Ahem, just like someone went after Saddam. What happened?
What will most likely happen... again?
Shitstorm gets worse.
Hmm, is Saddam the new Hitler? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)
(I realize that I've just made two really off-topic and pointless posts in a row. No, I have nothing interesting to contribute.)
Quote from: InCreator on Mon 11/08/2008 16:32:37
Georgia (not autonomous region of S-O) is invaded now.
Where do you get this? There's no such thing on the news, not on NYTimes or Der Spiegel online news-services or the finnish newspaper. Our minister for foreign affairs is in Georgia with the one from France representing EU and the OSCE, and they've signed a cease fire treaty with Saakashvili, while Russia called for NATO for an emergensy meeting, which will most probably take place soon. Aside from all this, there's nothing about Georgia being invaded.
QuoteParanoia or not I still think the US is Jonesing for a skirmish with the Russians...
Well, maybe no paranoid. Let' s leave it in "totally uncorrect".
19:23
GMT +02:00
CNN.com
Ceasefire?
(http://www.increator.pri.ee/i/cnn.png)
And I'm preaching this for two days now.
Tuomas, really, pull your head out of your--
You're finnish. Didn't you learn history at school?
Doesn't Russia still own great amount of eastern Finland?
Does anyone STILL need news to predict what's going on?
Haven't your own grandparents died in trenches fighting those Red devils?
Quote from: InCreator on Mon 11/08/2008 17:24:19
Tuomas, really, pull your head out of your--
You're finnish. Didn't you learn history at school?
Doesn't Russia still own great amount of eastern Finland?
Haven't your own grandparents died in trenches fighting those Red devils?
Out of my what? Is offending someone a civilized way of having a discussion? Is that how they teach you in Estonia?
I'm Finnish, yes, and yes, they did teach us history at school.
Russia owns a part of Russia that used to be a part of Finland a century ago, and no-one wants it back anymore.
My grandparents are alive, mind you. This was 70 years ago, so had they been there, they would have died of old age already. Of the forefathers that might have died I don't care because I haven't seen them or even pictures of them.
I'm not taking sides here, and I don't want to repeat everything I said earlier about the reasons and what I disagree with. I'll pick a couple of lines from the story at CNN then. The Russian government is not the same as it were back during Glasnost and before. Of course they have their interests too, but it's hardly the same as it was 70 years ago, or even 30, as the whole political front has changed from communism to extreme liberitarian capitalism. And again, the first move of warfare was made by Georgia on thursday-friday. Our minister was to Gori today and reported back from a Georgian town held by South Ossetian separatists, hardly invaded though.
QuoteRussia insists it has no interest in interfering with Georgia's affairs but wants to protect its peacekeepers and the residents of South Ossetia
Quote"The 1992 treaty which Georgia signed, among others, clearly defines the limits of responsibility of the Russian peacekeeping contingent, and is doesn't have any tasks of invading the Georgian territory."
QuoteA U.S. military official told CNN that Russian attacks on Georgia -- including radars and communication systems -- have devastated the country's command and control system to the point where Georgian leaders may not have a clear idea of the situation on the ground.
QuoteThe situation in South Ossetia escalated rapidly from Thursday night, when Georgia said it launched an operation into the region after artillery fire from separatists killed 10 people. It accused Russia of backing the separatists.
Quote from: NYTimesOn Monday, in a conference call with reporters, Mr. Saakashvili said Georgian and Russian troops had fought fierce battles overnight as Russian tanks advanced toward Gori before being driven back, with heavy casualties on both sides. Russian planes also bombed targets across Georgia on Monday, including roads and bridges, Mr. Saakashvili said, before fleeing to a bomb shelter because Russian planes were flying over the presidential palace in Tbilisi.
I'ts all just circumstancial, but the point here is, that you can't go judging the moves of Russia just because of the war cromes they committed in the Balkans several years ago. Though I know it's not an easy subject to talk about, there's still two sides to everything.
QuoteOn Monday, Abkhaz forces threatened to wipe out Georgian troops if they did not leave the Kodori Gorge, the only area where Georgia has military forces in the contested territory. Abkhaz troops blocked the gorge and proposed the formation of a humanitarian corridor to safely allow Georgian troops and civilians to leave, the Abkhaz defense minister, Mirab Kishmariya, told the Russian news agency Interfax.
Of course it would be better for Russia too to just leave them alone and let Georgia fight its own civil wars, but in another sense, they already had their troops in there, and they can't go pulling them out with Georgia driving theirs in. It has to come from both sides. The treaty is being taken to Moscow as we speak and will possibly be signed. That is why Russia is consulting NATO. Either it'll go on for long with neither drawing their troops back or it'll end tomorrow with Georgia never joining NATO. However, even if I might have my head up in my whatever, it doesn't mean i'm not allowed to think unbiased and just try to analyze the issue. It doesn't concern me right at this moment, and when/if it does, then at least i'll be prepared and know what I'm talking about. If you claim that they don't teach us history, perhaps you should consider, that maybe they teach us general history, not just the history everyone wants to hear. The biased history, which you are so keen on. Thanks for the link, it's was interesting read, and I appreciate that. But what I don't appreciate is your attitude with what we're trying to find out here just by having an analytic discussion.
EDIT: Well, here we have it. I stand corrected for being an optimist. Russia has just turned down the cease-fire offering. This is getting interesting.
Ahhh! If we' ve spent 5% of the time we used for attacking Bush attacking Putin instead... ^_^
Quote
The Russian government is not the same as it were back during Glasnost and before.
Well I suppose all of the ex-party members and their bureaucratic accomplishes are sitting on a beach somewhere in the south of France or collecting unemployment back in mother Russia. ;)
I would be, if I were them :D
Quote from: Stupot on Mon 11/08/2008 13:19:06
Paranoia or not I still think the US is Jonesing for a skirmish with the Russians...
God, I hope not. I used to be in the military once upon a time (got out a few years after the first Gulf War). The thought of any conflict between the U.S. and Russia (even a limited one -- though who can say that it would remain such for long!) is the stuff of nightmares. The projected casualties for the Fulda Gap alone were staggering.
Limited conflicts have a way of spilling over into full blown wars (some of the bloodiest wars in history were triggered by seemingly unimportant events that no one foresaw the consequences of). Unchecked war is even more likely if one side or the other has something to prove. Putin (president or not) seems to be in need of the world's respect (born of fear) that Russia enjoyed in the "good old days" of the USSR. And Bush... well, what more needs to be said, really? Plus, the U.S. land forces and supply logistics seem stretched pretty thin right now. Outside of parking a carrier group nearby and starting an air war, I'm not sure what options are available to America right now.
Let's all hope this ends quickly before European history enters a new, unpleasant chapter.
- Ponch
Well... Georgia it' s not Europe. They participate in our crappy song contests, along with Turkey, Israel, and Cyprus, but nothing else...
So?
They have oil.
And gas.
Anything that has oil or gas could be even next capital of Belgium, as far as EU spokesmen are concerned.
Or next star on US flag.
Money talks.
The pipeline links have been intelligently avioding Georgia lately, and now oil going from the Caucasus to Belgium dosn' t need to pass through Georgia anymore. The reservoirs of gas and oil are not really that relevant.
This war is because Putin wants Russia to be in the newspapers again, and he doesn' t really know how to get it.
Quote from: Nacho on Mon 11/08/2008 17:10:40
QuoteParanoia or not I still think the US is Jonesing for a skirmish with the Russians...
Well, maybe no paranoid. Let' s leave it in "totally uncorrect".
Perhaps... I can't argue with you because my knowlegde is obviously inferior to yours... I'm just basing my opinion on what reading I have done and a little instinct... However, when the US does declare war on Russia I will say "I told you so".
Sure! I would accept that in a sportive manner... but one question: When will I be able to tell you "I told you so"? If there is no war in a month? in a year? In a decade? 50 years?
Just hear to the soldier members we have here... War with Russia is a no no. And for Russia war with EUA is a no no again...
Quote from: Tuomas on Mon 11/08/2008 18:02:00
I'm not taking sides here, and I don't want to repeat everything I said earlier about the reasons and what I disagree with. I'll pick a couple of lines from the story at CNN then. The Russian government is not the same as it were back during Glasnost and before. Of course they have their interests too, but it's hardly the same as it was 70 years ago, or even 30, as the whole political front has changed from communism to extreme liberitarian capitalism.
Actually, Russia's economic policies are not particularly liberal, much less libertarian. Government interference in many industries is heavy-handed, like the way the state destroyed and took Yukos for itself, and the attacks on Mechel just a couple of weeks ago. Capitalists like BP are fleeing the country or getting expelled. And the political system, of course, is now a form of authoritarian rule by Leader for Life Putin (whether his title is President or Prime Minister).
Quote from: Nacho on Mon 11/08/2008 19:54:43
Well... Georgia it' s not Europe. They participate in our crappy song contests, along with Turkey, Israel, and Cyprus, but nothing else...
Actually, geographically, culturally and historically, Georgia is in Europe. Yes, it's a remote outpost (though not too far away from Ukraine) that few people in the core European countries are more than dimly aware of, and the border with Asia runs through the country, but it is in fact European.
It' s at the south of the Caucasian mountains which are accepted as the boarders of Europe... It can appear in some European maps, like Asian Turkey does, as well, but it' s not Europe.
(http://www.upf.edu/materials/fhuma/portal_geos/geo/img/urals.jpg)
Quote from: Snarky on Mon 11/08/2008 21:08:21
Actually, Russia's economic policies are not particularly liberal, much less libertarian. Government interference in many industries is heavy-handed, like the way the state destroyed and took Yukos for itself, and the attacks on Mechel just a couple of weeks ago. Capitalists like BP are fleeing the country or getting expelled. And the political system, of course, is now a form of authoritarian rule by Leader for Life Putin (whether his title is President or Prime Minister).
I have no problems admitting that I was wrong. :) You know the times when you write a foreign language and don't want to go through dictionaries to find the correct words. I'm not that much into economics myself, so. The point is, while it's completely the same, it's completely different too at the same time.
Georgia: "a transcontinental country partially in Eastern Europe and partially in Southwest Asia in the Caucasus region." says wikipedia. Basically a lot of countries like this are considered European in most cases, right? I don't know why they're considering Turkey and Georgia into EU, if they're not wholly European... I'm not sure how it's rightly defined where they belong... I believe your map is outdated, Nacho. They're also as much a member of the Council of Europe as is, say, Finland.
I saw Putin stating that Georgia has done Genocide on Russian people. What is your opinion on that, true?
Why are such lies necessary in this situation?
Besides, it is clearly stated by other countries also, that Russia is still led by Putin. An ex KGB agent who thought about going to be a taxi driver when Soviet Union collapsed. Too bad he didn't do it, but I am quite sure he misses the good old Soviet Times. Why are there more SU flags appearing in Russia, including in parades?
Outdated? It' s a geographical map showing where the phisical frontiers of Europe are... A bit silly, I must admit, since we are just a little peninsula of Asia. Saying that Urals and Caucasian mountains are the frontier is a bit arbitrary, methinks.
Anyway, if we agree that the Urals and the Caucasian mountains are the limits the map won't be outdated unless there is a cataclism... :)
As Tuomas points out, Georgia lies on the border between Europe and Asia, with parts in Europe according to the Caucasus mountain definition.
Also, it's a Christian country with historical ties to Greece and the other European countries bordering the Black Sea going back several millennia. Culturally and politically, it arguably is more European than Asian.
In any case, whatever label you want to put on it doesn't change the substance of the situation. Georgia was not close to getting membership in NATO or the EU, but they were trying to head in that direction, and would certainly be eligible in time. This war is very relevant to Europe.
Quote from: radiowaves on Mon 11/08/2008 21:53:35
I saw Putin stating that Georgia has done Genocide on Russian people. What is your opinion on that, true?
Why are such lies necessary in this situation?
I have no opinion whatsoever (although in this case I would say "understanding" or "knowledge", because my opinion doesn't change what's true and what isn't), but it's clear to me which one I'm expected to have... :=
Any links to back up the idea that it's a lie? Any links to suggest that it's true? That Putin was even talking about it? These things help if you want to get a meaningful discussion going. Just saying.
Quote from: Snarky on Mon 11/08/2008 22:42:36
As Tuomas points out, Georgia lies on the border between Europe and Asia, with parts in Europe according to the Caucasus mountain definition.
Also, it's a Christian country with historical ties to Greece and the other European countries bordering the Black Sea going back several millennia. Culturally and politically, it arguably is more European than Asian.
"Parts in Europe" is not "It' s geographically Europe", as you said previously... It just means that "Some parts (the fewer) are in Europe".
About history, culture, etc... It's difficult to set a line, I think. For example, I consider the USA closer to Europe historically and culturally than Albania, or Turkey... Same with Israel, which looks to me completelly Western. It' s difficult.
I feel closer to Georgia than I feel to Spain. Geographical location does not matter. Why be such fundamentalists?
Well then, seems like Mr. Medvedev has ordered russian troops to stop the attacks. They're not pulling back out yet though, but they probably will if everyone else agrees with their deal.
Sure Waves... The feel of being closer to a country can be so strong that we put those feeling aside to tell "who" belongs to Europe or not.
That's why we use the geography.
That' s why Georgia is basically Asian. I don' t know why Snarky is being so fundamentalistic about that... ::)
Quote from: Nacho on Tue 12/08/2008 12:54:51
Sure Waves... The feel of being closer to a country can be so strong that we put those feeling aside to tell "who" belongs to Europe or not.
That's why we use the geography.
That' s why Georgia is basically Asian. I don' t know why Snarky is being so fundamentalistic about that... ::)
yeah, but why does it matter wether it belongs to Asia or to Europe in this point?
What has Georgia's European-ness got to do with the war with Russia? We've just wasted two pages of topic on this argument, and it's irrelevant.
So much internets... wasted... :( :( :(
I don' t really know this started! Someone said "Oh, no! I hope you europeans do not start with a war in your territory again!" Then I replied "Georgia is not Europe". Then Snarky said it is... And I don' t really remember the rest. All I know is that the discussion is worthless indeed, since it doesn't matter... Nobody is less, or more, for being european, I guess...
Anyway, the whole thread is pointless, since war is over. And third world war between the Russians and the States seems will have to wait, Stupot!
Quote from: Nacho on Tue 12/08/2008 07:18:17
"Parts in Europe" is not "It' s geographically Europe", as you said previously... It just means that "Some parts (the fewer) are in Europe".
Well, yes. If it sits on the border of Europe and Asia, then it is geographically in Europe--and in Asia. That seems pretty straightforward to me.
I think a lot of people are used to thinking of Europe as just Western Europe, and it's easy to forget that Europe stretches all the way to the Ural and the Caucasus, and that in addition to places like Belgium or Sweden, includes such charming countries as Belarus.
Quote from: Nacho on Tue 12/08/2008 12:54:51
That's why we use the geography.
That' s why Georgia is basically Asian. I don' t know why Snarky is being so fundamentalistic about that... ::)
Dude, geography is only a part of it. We count Iceland as part of Europe even though it's closer to North America, because it was settled by Norwegians in pre-Columbian times.
If the discussion was about whether Georgia had anything to do with Southwest Asia, too, then of course it does. But your utter refusal to consider Georgia as a part of Europe is what's fundamentalist here.
While the nomenclature doesn't change the conflict and is mostly irrelevant, I think the excuse that it's "not Europe" can easily be code for "it's not our problem". Which it most emphatically is. Also, the argument seems tied up with the angst about extending the EU to countries outside of Western Europe, and particularly Turkey, on the basis that they're "not European" (which is truly irrelevant--there's no reason why EU membership couldn't be extended to non-European nations). An argument with a whiff of xenophobia.
(That's not to say that Turkey is ready to join in the near future: their recent constitutional crisis shows that democracy is still fragile. However, they did resolve it, which indicates that they're moving in the right direction. Georgia's unresolved territorial issues, similarly, would probably have kept it from becoming a viable NATO or EU candidate, and unfortunately this war seems to have made matters only worse.)
Quote from: Snarky on Tue 12/08/2008 14:26:15
While the nomenclature doesn't change the conflict and is mostly irrelevant, I think the excuse that it's "not Europe" can easily be code for "it's not our problem". Which it most emphatically is.
I'll let Nacho speak for himself about whether he agrees or not, but to me, these words, and this entire line of thought, seem to be yours, not his. Why is a conflict any less "our problem" because it's far away, or on the wrong side of an entirely arbitrary line? China is certainly not in Europe, and I'm sure you agree here as well, but that's no excuse for me to flip them off. At first glance, lacking as I do any kind of knowledge of who you are, your statement here seems to be revealing
your attitudes far more than they do Nacho's. Just saying.
Nah, I agree with Snarky. I am a xenophobic and a nazi.... And a homophobe too :)
EDIT: Spelling...
QuoteWhat has Georgia's European-ness got to do with the war with Russia? We've just wasted two pages of topic on this argument, and it's irrelevant
It really has NOTHING to do with geographical location. Georgia is a democratic pro-western country bordering Russia.
It's like an image of random
other european country. Or even USA. I know that culture room. I LIVE IN IT. My russian-speaking and native-root neighbors put russian federation flags on their window and walk around city with evil grin. Even though they were born and raised here. For russians, it's 'them' and 'us', It's really that simple and sinister... Georgia, for Russians, is 'them'.
We are ALSO 'them'. Westerners. Europeans.And Georgia is being attacked by Russia with overwhelming military power.
That's the whole importance...
--and the big question is either--
What will world do about it? --or if everyone stays so stupidly uncaring--
Who's next?I'm quite tired of this discussion and cold aura of ignorance bordering blind stupidity levitating here really hurts my feelings. So I won' discuss this any further. After all, as last days have proven, time is the wisest one. Everything will be clear in time, and as it seems, everything goes to deeper shit over time.
Sigh.
The thing is that I agree... I didn't had my opinions clear the first days, because of ignorance, but I tried to gather as much as info as possible and now I basically agree. Russia entered in another country (Which in my dictionary is "invasion") and fucked up things... Not only for protecting the ossetians, but also the following days, after the cease fire treaty, and just because Putin is an asshole and wants his country to be as powerfull and it was when he was young.
But I keep my opinion (Well, anyone who knows a bit of geography would agree) Georgia is not Europe (Geographically talking)
It's common that when is needed to put a boarder in a mountain, the line is set along its highest points of the mountain chain. Georgia boarder with Russia is at the highest elevations of the caucassian mountains, which points, together, form a line... Everything at the south is Asia. Everything at the north is Europe.
I don' t know what happens in your country, but if I lived 10 meters below the highest point of a mountain, in the skirt that belongs to a valley called "Europa valley" I would say that I live in the European Valley... I wouldn't say "I live 90% in the European valley, but a bit in Asia valley" or "I partially live in Europe and Asia valley"... It' s silly.
Maybe you, the ones who have been deffensive about those FACTS are the ones who should examine your opinions. I wouldn' t ask for someone to be European for helping him if he is suffering an unfair treat. I would try to help or I would sympathise with him NO MATTER the place he COMES FROM. It is you who associated my "they are not european" with "They are not european, so, they don't deserve my help". That thinking has never been in my head. Maybe was it in yours, in an unconscient level, Snarky? I don' t know... I think not! but you should think twice before calling someone you don't know xenophobe.
Bah. I simply don't want to wake up because Russian tanks are rolling through block. Would you?
T-90 tank has highest speed of 65km/h. Border is 200 km away. They would be here in less than 4 hours, before most of nation would even realize.
This has happened more than once in history (only once in my lifetime, phew), but threats are coming from this imperialist kingdom of evil on daily basis. Last year, during a major russian riot, it might had quite simply end like Georgia today. Russian teen punks trashed capital city, police arrested them... and Russian news showed fake stories how "police is beating people" or rather "they dare to touch ours"... Actually police had untold (or told?) order to stand down, not to provoke our evil neighbor... Everybody knew this and simply looked powerlessly on tv how local russians trash home city...
And we don't have really those missiles and tanks Georgia has to even last as long as they did.
Russia is testing patience and limits of NATO and EU all the time. Georgia was bigger test than it had ever been. A test too critical for global safety. Only few people -- or rather - nations -- realized it.
Three highest leaders of Baltics, and leader of Poland flew to Georgia yesterday (presidents and prime minister) since those 4 countries (of which one is mine) know damn well how reactive whole situation is. For us, it's a bit more real than "someone, somewhere, war, something".
Europe watches news as boring action movie. And we're small and the voice is weak. And EU has ears full of cheap oil and gas.
I don't feel very safe going to bed tonight.
InC, man. I understand and apreciate your concern about the situation but I was merely trying to get the topic back onto "Russia and Georgia" as it was descending into a debate about where Europe meets Asia and this is of little importance to the issue.
Your point about the "them and us" attitude of Russia was a good one, and something I was unaware of. But I don't really think Russia went to war with Georgia for being European, and they would need a better reason than that to go to war with any other European country. I honestly didn't mean to hurt your feelings with my ignorance and blind stupidity.
Quote from: EldKatt on Tue 12/08/2008 14:36:37
I'll let Nacho speak for himself about whether he agrees or not, but to me, these words, and this entire line of thought, seem to be yours, not his. Why is a conflict any less "our problem" because it's far away, or on the wrong side of an entirely arbitrary line? China is certainly not in Europe, and I'm sure you agree here as well, but that's no excuse for me to flip them off. At first glance, lacking as I do any kind of knowledge of who you are, your statement here seems to be revealing your attitudes far more than they do Nacho's. Just saying.
I did not say that this is what he thinks. I said that his argument bothers me because it provides cover for those attitudes.
Where to draw the borders of Europe is not a politically neutral question. One of the big controversies over EU enlargement, and specifically with letting Turkey in, has been over the argument that it's "not European" (i.e. "not one of us"). In that context, it was pretty unfortunate that Nacho's first post on this issue referenced Turkey and Cyprus (another focus point for controversy).
Quote from: Nacho on Tue 12/08/2008 20:51:09
But I keep my opinion (Well, anyone who knows a bit of geography would agree) Georgia is not Europe (Geographically talking)
It's common that when is needed to put a boarder in a mountain, the line is set along its highest points of the mountain chain. Georgia boarder with Russia is at the highest elevations of the caucassian mountains, which points, together, form a line... Everything at the south is Asia. Everything at the north is Europe.
I don' t know what happens in your country, but if I lived 10 meters below the highest point of a mountain, in the skirt that belongs to a valley called "Europa valley" I would say that I live in the European Valley... I wouldn't say "I live 90% in the European valley, but a bit in Asia valley" or "I partially live in Europe and Asia valley"... It' s silly.
It is routine to include in the list of countries of a continent any country that has any part of itself in that continent. This makes sense. For example, most of Russia's land area (more than 3/4) lies in Asia, but it would be ridiculous to deny that it's a European country. Besides, since Europe is mainly a cultural, historical and political construct, geography is not the be-all, end-all of the question. Armenia lies just outside the geographical area of Europe, but is nevertheless often accepted as a European country (it's a member of the Council of Europe, for example). I already mentioned Iceland, and you brought up Cyprus, although those are islands and therefore more ambiguous.
This map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Map_of_Europe_(political).png) offers a good illustration, and appears to show Georgia about evenly divided between Europe and Asia (though this appears to be inaccurate by the Caucasus watershed definition).
Quote from: InCreator on Tue 12/08/2008 19:57:15
It really has NOTHING to do with geographical location. Georgia is a democratic pro-western country bordering Russia.
It's a shame that Saakashvili tarnished Georgia's democratic credentials earlier in the year. "Emerging democracy" may be a more honest (though still upbeat) term.
Georgia clearly bears some blame for this conflict, with irresponsible brinkmanship going back the last several years. And not to forget that they were the ones who attacked. And Georgia's history has plenty of ethnic and regional tensions. For instance, the breakaway republic of Abkhazia, which Georgia claims, has historically had some level of autonomy from the country, and part of the reason why there used to be so many Georgians there (before they were ethnically cleansed in the war in the early 90s) was that Stalin and Beria (chief of the Soviet secret police), who were both Georgians, repressed the Abkhazians and encouraged immigration into the region by Georgians.
Moreover, the fact that
three separate regions declared autonomy almost as soon as Georgia was formed after the fall of the Soviet Union, and have been effectively independent (at least from Georgia) up until this year does not speak well either of the popular support of the Georgian state in these regions, or of the government's ability to administer the country. (Obviously, changing this fact and reasserting the government's authority was a major priority for Saakashvili, and one of the factors that led to this conflict.)
We were discussing different things... You went by the political/cultural side and I went via the geographical one... We don' t even dissagree. It' s okay. :)
Quote from: Snarky on Wed 13/08/2008 01:13:34
Quote from: EldKatt on Tue 12/08/2008 14:36:37
I'll let Nacho speak for himself about whether he agrees or not, but to me, these words, and this entire line of thought, seem to be yours, not his. Why is a conflict any less "our problem" because it's far away, or on the wrong side of an entirely arbitrary line? China is certainly not in Europe, and I'm sure you agree here as well, but that's no excuse for me to flip them off. At first glance, lacking as I do any kind of knowledge of who you are, your statement here seems to be revealing your attitudes far more than they do Nacho's. Just saying.
I did not say that this is what he thinks. I said that his argument bothers me because it provides cover for those attitudes.
Does it? I can agree that it is not a politically neutral question, and that its political implications were, as you say, "unfortunate"... but in the particular sense you talk about, it only expressly "provides cover for those attitudes" if you subscribe to "those attitudes" in the first place. Why should you?
I'm not bothered by his argument providing cover for some random scary attitude--any argument can do that if you're inventive enough. The random scary attitude itself is what bothers me. If you're building your case for "caring about Georgia" on it being European,
that's where the problem lies, because
your argument, in that case, is much more directly providing cover for not caring about countries which certainly are not European. I don't need to give you a bunch of examples of where that's undesireable. So however your post relates to Nacho's or whatever, fact of the matter is that on first glance, the former rubs me the wrong way more than the latter does. That's all.
If you had never entertained the notion that anyone could care less about things that happen far away than those that are up close, you must live in a better world than I do. I think that acknowledging that those attitudes are out there is a more pragmatic stance than to idealistically pretend that it's not an issue.
I don't like it when people spread misconceptions under any circumstances (you never know when they're going to become a meme, like that stupid idea that we only use 10% of our brains (http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percent.asp)), but when those misconceptions can so easily be used to rationalize prejudice or indifference I like it even less.
So where does that leave us if there's a crisis in, oh, say Nepal, Burma or Zimbabwe; places that are genuinely remote? I guess we have to use other arguments. At least there can be a discussion based on factually accurate information, even if people's attitudes aren't what you'd like.
Sorry, but the "Nacho is spreading misconceptions and inaccurate informations" argument that you are using as a base for your latest posts is starting to touch my balls a bit...
Georgia is not Europe. At least geographically, its north boarder line coincides exactly with the accepted division between Europe and Asia:
(http://www.redentoristas.org.ar/En%20el%20mundo/europe.gif)
You don' t like "misconceptions"? Ok... Here is one. Yours:
QuoteIf you had never entertained the notion that anyone could care less about things that happen far away than those that are up close
Matching "Belonging to the same Continent" to "distance" is a misconception.
Example:
Spain is 14 kms. away of Africa. Spain is 4,000 kms. away to Georgia. If you are right and Georgia is Europe, then I should care more about a war that is 4,000 kms. away than another happening 14 kms. away, because according to you Georgia is Europe but Marocco not.
Sorry man... that is stupid. If a war starts in Marocco I would be equally worried for the human aspect that if the war was in Georgia, but I would be selfishly more worried about if the war starts in there, because the shit is more likely to arrive here in that case.
Other examples in the other direction also work... There might be a war that is quite close to me, let' s say Mauritania and Argelia that would affect me (IN THE HUMAN ASPECT) in the same way that a war happening in a longer distance, let' s say Estonia and Russia. Anyway I would be more EMOTIONALLY involved in the second one, since it's more likely that the baltic war can affect me than the african war, since their influence to Spain is higher than Mauritania or Argelia. I agree with you that we tend to identify ourselves with some conflicts more than with others, but your will to match that emotions with "distance" or "continental coincidence" or things like that are genuinely yours, not mine.
QuoteSo where does that leave us if there's a crisis in, oh, say Nepal, Burma or Zimbabwe; places that are genuinely remote? I guess we have to use other arguments. At least there can be a discussion based on factually accurate information, even if people's attitudes aren't what you'd like.
I repeat: The innaccurate information said in this thread is your statement that Georgia is Europe, not mine. About matching "remoteness" with emotions, again, your ideas, not mine. I think I was the first saying that some people here should take less attention to the nimi conflicts started by the US and take more care about some other bloodiest (and longest) conflicts in the world. I am saying that we shouldn' t protest about the war in Iraq? No. I am saying that we should protest about the other conflicts too.
All your posts go to the same direction. Assuming that I have some feelings that I don' t have. Putting in my head ideas that I haven't expressed. I told you once, and I repeat. That "attitudes" are not mine, so, it' s impossible that you have found them in me. From where do that ideas come from? I don' t know, but maybe you should examine yourself before starting psychoanalysing me, dude.
It doesn't matter if the war happens in Europe, Asia or Antarctica it's just as important to the rest of the world. But this argument is still pointless... you're not arguing about where Georgia is... you're arguing about where the European border is... and that really doesn't change a thing... I can't understand the reason for this discussion and I've only gone and lowered myself (again) by posting this...
The reason? Suggesting that "I am spreading misconceptions and inaccurate informations because I am a xenophobe that can't feel empathy for conflicts that are not phisically close to me".
I don' t know about you, but if somebody suggests that reffering to me, I tend to reply, you know?
Quote from: Nacho on Sun 24/08/2008 08:12:47
Sorry, but the "Nacho is spreading misconceptions and inaccurate informations" argument that you are using as a base for your latest posts is starting to touch my balls a bit...
Georgia is not Europe. At least geographically, its north boarder line coincides exactly with the accepted division between Europe and Asia
Oh, FFS!
Now you are relying on outright
lies, and for what? Just so you can continue to maintain that Georgia is not in Europe, not even the tiniest bit. How can you make that claim with a straight face, when you already implicitly conceded that the country has parts in both Europe and Asia? There is so much documentation of this point, it doesn't even matter where to point you to: all credible sources say the same thing. Some half-assed Mapquest screen doesn't change that.
(http://home.comcast.net/~snarkibartfast/images2/800px-Map_of_Europe_(political).png) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Map_of_Europe_(political).png)
Geographically, it straddles the border between Europe and Asia. (I'll take that as read and ignore your latest nonsense.) Politically, it is overwhelmingly if not universally classified as European. For example, both the EU and the Council of Europe have it as part of Europe, it's found in the European section of newspapers and other news sources that group stories by continent (well, all those I've checked: BBC, The Economist, CNN, Le Monde, El Pais, ...), and commentators and politicians both from the US and Europe have in recent weeks frequently made reference to it as a European country. For instance, the US Ambassador to the UN, Zalmay Khalilzad, was mocked for saying that "the days of overthrowing leaders by military means
in Europe, those days are gone"--incidentally proving my point that this kind of classification does make a difference to people.
QuoteAll your posts go to the same direction. Assuming that I have some feelings that I don' t have. Putting in my head ideas that I haven't expressed. I told you once, and I repeat. That "attitudes" are not mine, so, it' s impossible that you have found them in me. From where do that ideas come from? I don' t know, but maybe you should examine yourself before starting psychoanalysing me, dude.
I have not said that the attitudes are yours. I pointed out earlier in the discussion that I'm not saying you personally believe those things. You are the one casting aspersions on my motives and grossly distorting what I'm saying. Kindly cut it out.
(http://www.redentoristas.org.ar/En%20el%20mundo/europe.gif)
See the country under the letters thar form the word "C A U C A S O"?
It' s Georgia. It' s painted in light yellow. There' s a reason for that.
The reason is that Goergia is not Europe.
I don' t mind if you have read somewhere that "It' s an european conflict". I agree that it' s a conflict that enters into the Western/Occident/European sphere, but it' s not Europe. Same when there was a conflict in Cyprus between pro-turks and pro-greeks. It was a conflict concerning us, but it was not happening in European territory.
One more question: Switzerland is a weird contry with a weird political status towards Europe... Some of them do not consider Europe.
Let' s imagine that Switzerland was not considered as European at all by everybody... According to your opinion (We must consider political arguments to label a country as European or not, in spite of geographical ones), that conflict shouldn' t be European. Sorry, but saying that if there is a war in Switzerland it shouldn' t be an European war is silly. And considering a civil war in Switzerland as a non-european war is what we should do if we follow your opinions.
QuoteAll your posts go to the same direction. Assuming that I have some feelings that I don' t have. Putting in my head ideas that I haven't expressed. I told you once, and I repeat. That "attitudes" are not mine, so, it' s impossible that you have found them in me. From where do that ideas come from? I don' t know, but maybe you should examine yourself before starting psychoanalysing me, dude.
I have not said that the attitudes are yours. I pointed out earlier in the discussion that I'm not saying you personally believe those things. You are the one casting aspersions on my motives and grossly distorting what I'm saying. Kindly cut it out.
Then, sorry, but recognise that saying that "Nacho is spreading misconceptions and innacurate informations" and then linking that info I give with "the attitudes" you criticise can easilly be taken as offensive.
Guys, unless you can steer this thread towards either something more on-topic or at least more entertaining, I'm locking it.
I know it's popular to rubbish everything Wikipedia has to offer... but for the purposes of putting an end to this conflict (and I'm not talking about South Ossetia), I'm going to direct both parties to the following link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country))
And the very first sentence of the article which reads:
Quote from: Wikipedia... so what?
"Georgia... is a transcontinental country in the Caucasus region, partially in Eastern Europe and partially in Southwestern Asia."
So you're both right...
Now boys, can't we learn to live together in peace and let the men with the tanks do the real fighting?
That's what I've been arguing all along, since my very first post in this thread!
Quote from: Snarky on Mon 11/08/2008 21:08:21
Actually, geographically, culturally and historically, Georgia is in Europe. Yes, it's a remote outpost (though not too far away from Ukraine) that few people in the core European countries are more than dimly aware of, and the border with Asia runs through the country, but it is in fact European.
In deference to Andail (and the rest of you), I'll spare you the message I'm PMing to Nacho, referencing the various definitions of Europe's geographical border and showing that Georgia straddles all of them. If this argument continues, it will do so in private.
No need to. I am okay with you, but I know what I think, what I said, and you won' t convince me to the opposite. If you feel you want to pm to say that there have been no hard feelings or something don't do it, everything is forgotten.
EDIT: Received your PM. It' s cool. Pitty I don' t like PM debates. I don' t know why Andail threatens to cut this, specially after seeing how nobody did nothing when the first thread of gen gen was systematically hijacked over two months by a 20 pages thread which posts basically said:
Stickam in ten minutes! Name of the room: WeAresCool. Password: TehPen154.
But it's ok. No hard feelings to anybody, I am in a zen state after mittens. :) I am working in some sprites and they are cool.
Nacho, the thread is moved from gen gen so you can stop crapping over it.
So you don't like Stickam, or indeed Stickam threads. We all know that, I get upset by people who take a dislike to Stickam or Stickam threads because I love them so much. You see I wake up in the morning and the first thing I need to know is where the Stickam room is, and now that it's in the Popular threads board I couldn't be happier! As for saying there would be a password is ludicrous! We in the Stickam room welcome all, even you if you'd like to come join in the mass debates we have sometimes. And also young Chevy Chase is always joking around. (http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/chevychase.jpg) see!
You are so funny! ^_^
Yeah, been following this myself right from the start, it's atually quite painful to know see the sovereign state of Georgia still occupied by those Ruskies, But still, i cant bring myself to doubt for a second that georgia deserves everything it gets. Yes it's blunt and biased, but pumping lead into russian nationals at the very doorway of their own country just because they have internationally legal passport documents is just as foolish.
Genocide is not good. And as for Political and supportive involvement againts russia's actions of any nations from the EU, or even the United states infact, disgusts me just as much.
They don't particulary care about Georgia itself, Beit a sovereign state, or part of the EU, actions like these are only met by means of military support, of which the results pave the way for the US and the UK to set up office.
Rant over!
I find it funny that everybody in the U.S. government were saying that countries are not supposed to invade other sovereign countries, yet that's exactly what we did, and are continuing to do, in Iraq.
But the war on terror is a just war!
Just oil, just military-industrial complex self-interests....
Well, the thing is, "might makes right" and only the U.S. can invade other countries. Watch out Great Britain, you're next! *flexes*
Posted by: TerranRich Posted on: Today at 04:07
Insert Quote
Well, the thing is, "might makes right" and only the U.S. can invade other countries. Watch out Great Britain, you're next! *flexes*
Another Member with the same pie-in-the-sky ideology as usual:D
Unfortunately Uncle sam youv'e just been Nullified. Russia has just decided to Join that little game you all play over there in your Ranche's, and Rows upon Rows of tanks, Aeroplanes, and Bombs and all that other potentialy lethal stuff you all have under your homes! Yet you won't compete will you, Russia would Kick the strappy ass of your mass producing pop-on, pop-off conveyer belt back to it's gun slinging western desert, where you can all play your own war games even more, lax yeah, without being disturbed. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwww!
Here's the real info pal;
The Eu's economy will shame the US's within the next few years. Guaranteed!
Nuke us brits, and we'll nuke You fuckers back! No matter how big you are! Also Guaranteed!
The only difference between the Uk and the US, is that the The UK Woke up!
And that's the difference between reality, and being American. Well known!
Stupid American! Bye Bye forever. Noobster. Go away!
Where do you live, Shoni? I have a dictionary to spare, and since I think you need one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm), I could mail it over.
Quote from: Akatosh on Thu 18/09/2008 16:12:21
Where do you live, Shoni? I have a dictionary to spare, and since I think you need one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm), I could mail it over.
Where do you live? Perhaps i might do the same thing. Don't tell me, your'e not going to tell me are you. In which case neither will i tell you! I'm not sacrastic, i'm just a grumpy bastard. And that's at the best of times. So i wouldn't recommend pissing me off!
Another Misinformed User, two in as many minutes.
Time to cancel my own account i think. Either that or carry on showing you all just how brave and fantastically defensive i am against you inexperienced cretins.
Seen it, heard it all before, i'm already sick of you. i'm going. Bye Bye.
Actually, I meant that you probably misinterpreted TerranRich's comment as serious - which it wasn't. He was just being sarcastic, as was I. But judging to your reply to my post, I'm starting to think you could really need that dictionary... :=
Don't feed the troll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)). :=
I know. I was hoping for more drama gold like "Time to cancel my own account i think. Either that or carry on showing you all just how brave and fantastically defensive i am against you inexperienced cretins.", but sadly, it didn't work. :'(
Quote from: RickJ on Thu 18/09/2008 17:21:05Don't feed the troll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)).
You know ... I've always found that statement hilarious! (not sure why really, I just love it)
I think we should adopt a new policy here on the AGS boards. Whenever a troll comes along we
should feed it! With pictures of food! Don't reply to the
content of the troll's message, just give it the 'food' it so desperately needs!
I don't think it's possibly to cancel your own account, anyway.
Unless he was suggesting some sort of metaphysical "cancel" on a cosmic scale.
EDIT: Oh, you CAN! Cancel away, chum, cancel away!
I tend to feed trolls much too often. I nearly replied to that guy until RickJ showed me the light.
(http://www.waynewhitecoop.com/system/images/Light%20Bulb.jpg)
QuoteNuke us brits, and we'll nuke You fuckers back! No matter how big you are! Also Guaranteed!
I am still trying to make sense of this. Make me mad and I might have to push the red button. :=
You have to learn that we joke alot around here. :=
Yes. Because I was entirely serious when I said Great Britain was next. ::)
I'm still wondering what a "pie-in-the-sky ideology" might be.
Akatosh, that's amore.