Saddam Captured?

[SSH]

* SSH crushes Farlander for double-posting

Anyway, the reason the USA doesn't invade the REAL threats to world security is the same reason they didn't attack the USSR during the cold war: they have nukes and would use them. That is why the idea of WMD in Iraq is laughable...

btw, you know that Chernoybl translated to "Wormwood" in English?

[Nacho]

No...  I didn´t know that or the worm...

Well SSH... I would agree with the antiamerican statement that US only invades the countries he is interested in, avoiding some others ruled by dictators, such some of the Black-Africa countries (Nigeria, Sierra Leona, Cote D´Ivory, Liberia...).

That countries do not have nukes.

But the problem is that many people complain when US attacks.

The funny thing is that,when they attack, they complain even more.

I remember that the day after the attack on Iraq 3,000 heads appeared in a Square of the Capital of Sierra Leona, but nobody cared... Seems that only count the deaths caused by the US bombs, that makes me feel that there poeple who hides themselves behind the "NOT FOR WAR" banners, which really mean is "NOT TO THE U.S."

And that´s really sad because mixtured in that mass of people who is antiamerican and say "Not for war", there are a lot of people who don´t really like the war, and it´s difficult to differenciate them.

That´s why I take sometimes this deffensive attitude, because hidden in a disguise of pacifism and good intentions there are sometimes "evil" intentions.

Of course, I am not saying that some of the AGSers belong to this group...  

[makri]

Svastika used by Finnish Air Forces (and still used today by some branches of our army) had nothing to do with German National Socialist symbols. Then again, as you were just kidding you probably already knew that.

I'm not Anti-American. I've got family in The States. I am, however, against the foreign policy U.S. has been practicing this -and most of the previous- century. I'm also worried and sceptical towards current US domestic policies.

My North American family pretty much shares the same political views than me.

[Barcik]

btw, you know that Chernoybl translated to "Wormwood" in English?

Well I don't, and I wasn't born very far away from it. In fact, I was born just a bit before it happened. Maybe that's why I came out this way spikgjkldtjklreht9peqroewdvz.  

Then again, I never really learned Ukrainian.

[Nostradamus]

For those who said Saddam was not a threat to the world, here are the FACTS:
1) Saddam invaded Iran in the 80's in effort to take territorries, a war that ran 8 years with 400,000 Iranians and 100,000 Iraqis killed in the war
2) Saddam invaded and occupied Kuwait taking advantage of its oil fields in 1991.
3) Saddam sent missiles at Saudi Arabia & Israel in the Golf War in 1991 despite although those countries were not involved in the war.

For OTG and others who say he did not have unconventional weapons here are the FACTS:
1) Over 100,000 Iraqis, Kurds especially, were killed by orders of Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons (gas). The only one who ever did that since the Nazis in World War II. And that's in his OWN country!
2) After the 1991 Golf War hundreds of chemical & biological missileheads were found and destroyed by the UN.
3) Saddam himself threated to use chemical & biological warfare on those who attack him.

For those who doubt it's the real Saddam - the US would not release such a statement before they were absolutely sure it's really him with the DNA tests because they know it would be a huge blow if someone fnids out he was a fake and they lied.

For those asking what they were going to do with him:
1) They're gonna inspect him in effort to find out the whereabouts of unconventional weapons in Iraq.
2) They're gonna put him on trial, with Iraqi judges invovled for his crimes against humanity

[Dave Gilbert]

3) Saddam himself threated to use chemical & biological warfare on those who attack him.

I always assumed he had them.  So why didn't he use them?

I'm glad he's captured.  It doesn't justify the war, but he deserves whatever he gets.

[Pumaman]

For those who said Saddam was not a threat to the world, here are the FACTS:
1) Saddam invaded Iran in the 80's in effort to take territorries, a war that ran 8 years with 400,000 Iranians and 100,000 Iraqis killed in the war

And during that war, the US, UK and France sold Saddam thousands of weapons because he was seen as the good guy. In fact, I think he got them for free because he defaulted on his payments.

Thousands of weapons which he has since used against coalition forces.

[makri]

For those who said Saddam was not a threat to the world, here are the FACTS:

I think everyone's point is just there; after all that Iraq  military was weakened to a point it wasn't a serious threat to anyone.

[Nacho]

Svastika used by Finnish Air Forces (and still used today by some branches of our army) had nothing to do with German National Socialist symbols. Then again, as you were just kidding you probably already knew that.

I'm not Anti-American. I've got family in The States. I am, however, against the foreign policy U.S. has been practicing this -and most of the previous- century. I'm also worried and sceptical towards current US domestic policies.

My North American family pretty much shares the same political views than me.

The fact that Germany and Finland were allies during the war is a fact. Anyway, I don´t judge States, that´s your speciallity... in addition, Spain was also an Ally of the Nazis wasn´t it?  

Thanks for making me clear that you are not an irrational anti-american. Now, if you don´t like what happens there, become a U.S. citizen and vote and deffend the political choice you want.

[Matt Brown]

no, spain wasnt!! They teach us here in the states the the Spanish were facists, but never actually signed on with the ITalians and the Germans. For that matter, Argentina was also facist, but I think their offical stance in WWII in neutral, as Brasil was pro America, and Im sure that some south american battles would have occured if the argentinians were openly pro-nazi

Unless I am mistaken. You are spanish after all.

[Nacho]

Spain didn´t joined because it couldn´t... Remember that it just came form the civil war (1936-39). Anyway... But I said that Spain AIDED, sending the "blue division" to Russia.

A friend of my grandpa fighted in that group, and he told me amazing stories of the war in Russia, I specially like the battle of Stalingrad. I love the part when he said that he once looked over the trench and he saw a tracer bullet going directly to where he was. He never looked again...

I also remember histories about how cruel was the winter in Russia, and how expensive they sold the coffee to the german officers.

But I have more histories... The father of one of my nuns blew his hand with a granade, in a battle against the Fascist in the civil war (I would like to tell a tale of heroism, but the granade was his... ). Another one was killed in a fascist prison. An uncle of my grandpa was half japanese and he fighted with a russian fighter in the civil war. When the war ended, he was exiliated to the US, where the only way to avoid prison after Pearl Harbour (He was half-japanese and an inmigrant from the fascist Spain) was to instruct newbie pilots. His plane was shoot down over the Adriatic in 1944...

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/interviews/rahman.html

http://www.polyconomics.com/searchbase/11-18-98.html
Yes dodgy site, but there's evidence of the same report elsewhere. Search for the title. May or may not be true, but something to think about anyway.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/interviews/talabani.html

[Nacho]

Annie... that´s unfair... I could look for centenars of websites giving credibility, and evidences, that the moster of the Loch Ness exist. And we do know that it doesn´t. Conclussion: If you google for something, you´ll find a lot of evidences of that. Assuming that, we will never know if Saddam was powerfull enough or not, it is just a matter of the oppinion you had before the conflict.

This is boring. The non-war have showed their oppinions. The yes-to-war, also. So, why going with this discussion?

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

How is it unfair that I can't post links(aside from the second) that are interviews of people who were actually THERE and you can spout second hand knowledge without a source?  

There's always more than one story, don't believe everything you're told by the government or the media, or anyone else with an agenda. Like me.  

In the end, people will believe what they want to, I just point out there's more than one side to the story.

[TheYak]

Ok, to make it all clear.
The quoted segment from Debka.com came in response to CJ's post. He said that Saddam was leading the guerilla fight from that hole of his. So, I brought up this theory that he really was being held captive in that hole.

Sorry but that's the second time the mighty CJ was referenced incorrectly.  He stated that Saddam was NOT orchestrating military actions from his hole.
"1) if Saddam has spent the last few months hiding in a hole in the ground without so much as a mobile phone, he has hardly been commanding the insurgency against the coalition troops; therefore, his arrest is unlikely to have an impact on the attacks, which are apparently largely committed by terrorists from neighbouring countries who have come into Iraq to destabilise it"

I would seem his point was that military actions by Iraqi factions would not decrease after Saddam's capture as Saddam must've had very little influence there.  

Onward!

[Bob The Hun]

On the previously mentioned discussion of whether Spain was allied with Germany:
I believe that Spain remained neutral throughout the war. However, they might as well have been allied with Germany. On the other hand, one act by the Spanish government (with the endorsement of an extremely high-ranking Nazi official whose name escapes me) greatly helped to speed up Germany losing the war.
You see, at this time the Allies had claimed the Straits of Gibralter, and were proceeding to take North Africa, Italy, and the likes. If Hitler had been able to take the Straits back, it would have been a brutal blow to the allied war machine. Rather then spending Germany's already spread-thin military to invade yet another country, Hitler saw that he could probably convince the Spanish government to simply let the German army pass through freely. Before he went to negociate himself, however, he sent the aforementioned official. An unwise move, on Hitler's part. You see, this official, like many in latter-day Nazi Germany, was beginning to lose trust in Hitler, and took steps to see that he lost the war. This official also happened to be a close personal friend to many people in the Spanish government, and he quickly convinced them to not let Hitler freely move through Spain. Spain listened, and when Hitler himself came, the Spanish agreed to let him move his military, but set a ludicrous fee on the deal. Of course, Hitler didn't have the resources to pay the fee or enough resources to invade Spain, so he gave up on retaking the Straits.
Of course, the Straits proved invaluable to the Allied war effort.
So, to answer your question, they might as well have been allies, at least through most of the war, but Spain inadvertently delivered a crushing blow to the Nazi war effort.
Pretty much sure that those details are right, if my memory serves me well.

Anyway, on this whole Saddam thing, I'll just classify myself as 'Anti-Saddam'.

[Nacho]

There's always more than one story, don't believe everything you're told by the government or the media, or anyone else with an agenda. Like me.  

In the end, people will believe what they want to, I just point out there's more than one side to the story.

That´s the point... you believe what you want, like me. I have also interviews of people who was there saying that the chem weapons were going to be used, but I don´t post them here, because I don´t think it could change nobody´s mind (In fact, I don´t think that nobody would care)

Bob: I don´t remember that history of the German officer, and I am quite expert in the WWII. What I do remember is a meeting between Franco and Hitler in Hendaya (Spanish-French boarder), which finished in a big failure because Franco said Hitler that Spain was not able to aid them propperly. I know that Hitler even planned to take Gibraltar, with the spanish permission or not, they had even a reproduction of the british fortress in somewhere in Germany, so the German special forces could started practising.

But Hitler again received a negative answer by Franco, and it was in Hitler´s mind to invade Spain. I agree with you that not closing the Mediterranean with the conquest of Gibraltar was a huge tactical mistake.

[TheYak]

Anyway, on this whole Saddam thing, I'll just classify myself as 'Anti-Saddam'.

Hah! I scoff at you! I am 'Pro-Saddam.'  I believe that he's done some naughty things but that deep-down he's actually good at heart.  Yay, Saddam!  

[Paid for by the Coalition to Free Saddam]

[Barcik]

Ok, to make it all clear.
The quoted segment from Debka.com came in response to CJ's post. He said that Saddam was leading the guerilla fight from that hole of his. So, I brought up this theory that he really was being held captive in that hole.

Sorry but that's the second time the mighty CJ was referenced incorrectly.  He stated that Saddam was NOT orchestrating military actions from his hole.
"1) if Saddam has spent the last few months hiding in a hole in the ground without so much as a mobile phone, he has hardly been commanding the insurgency against the coalition troops; therefore, his arrest is unlikely to have an impact on the attacks, which are apparently largely committed by terrorists from neighbouring countries who have come into Iraq to destabilise it"

I would seem his point was that military actions by Iraqi factions would not decrease after Saddam's capture as Saddam must've had very little influence there.  

Onward!

So what I am trying to say is that Saddam wasn't in that hole all the time. Before being kidnapped, if that theory is correct, he could have had all the requirements to arrange the guerilla war. So, perhaps saying Saddam had little influence is incorrect. But, it's all just theories.

Oh, and I am sorry to be laughing at a person's spelling mistakes (I know I have my share), but Nostardamus' "Golf War" made me laugh hysterically.

[Interference]

Christ. This topic is already reaching the critical mass.

A few points:

Yes, both sides have had their say but the discussion shouldn't stop until it reaches a conclusion. If that takes a century, so be it. You'll feel better for it in the end, although at least admit when you're wrong and someone points that out.

You might think the other guy is an idiot but if he's right then accept it.

No, the US are not evil. They just put too much confidence in their government and manage to occasionally vote in power-crazed imbeciles to run the country once in a while. England did that too, remember? Tony Blair is a git. Everyone knows he's a git. His Mum probably thinks he's a git. He's running the country. How the hell did we fall for that one?

The only thing that separates the two countries is the power they wield. America can wipe out life as we know it and England can.. er.. ..uh. Yeah.

And no, there is nothing wrong with posting links as some form of evidence, so long as they are from a reliable source and  don't come from a website that has a forum where most of the regulars believe the Earth is being secretly run by a clandestine order of homicidal owls.