http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21224357/ (School shooting article)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15111438/ (School shooting myths)
Why does this keep happening? Granted, school shootings are not as rampant as they may seem, what with all the media attention they draw, but they still beg the question, why.
What's pushing these kids to do these things?
Why are so many of them male?
Why don't the kids who know about these plans in advance say something before it happens?
Are there any plans in the near future to take action against these shootings that will actually be effective, and still leave personal privacy and individuality intact?
There are no direct answers, but this kind of thing is so confusing I can't help but ask the questions.
At least nobody was killed in this round of shootings. (That they know of yet, anyway.)
I say it is a trend. Someone started it, and it became "popular" in a way, sad as it is.
There have always been violent outlets of steam that were copied; from waves of suicide to "bombing runs", and this, I fear, is really just another such wave.
Personally, I find the media hype behind school-shootings the equivalent of pouring gasoline into the flames. There will always be certain people who will actually get a thrill out of the idea to go out with a bright light.
I think I know enough applied psychology to give a meaningful answer or two...
Quote from: Raggit on Wed 10/10/2007 22:23:23
Why does this keep happening? Granted, school shootings are not as rampant as they may seem, what with all the media attention they draw, but they still beg the question, why.
I suggest you watch Bowling for Columbine; it provides some interesting insights in the matter. It is very much a culture thing, combined with the abundant availability of firearms.
QuoteWhat's pushing these kids to do these things?
Generally, ignorance.
QuoteWhy are so many of them male?
As above, plus males are traditionally more aggressive than females. Testosteron, and so forth.
QuoteWhy don't the kids who know about these plans in advance say something before it happens?
Disbelief, usually. Either they don't think that will happen to them, or they don't realize the magnitude (this
is rather otherwordly for most people,
especially young ones) or they do tell and aren't listened to, for pretty much the same reasons.
QuoteAre there any plans in the near future to take action against these shootings that will actually be effective, and still leave personal privacy and individuality intact?
No. You should listen to the song "Blame Canada" for a few insights into that - specifically, the final line "we must blame them and cause a fuss before somebody thinks of blaming us". People are too busy blaming e.g. heavy metal music and videogames, because this is a convenient scapegoat and allows them to believe themselves guilt-free. The problem usually starts with the parents.
Just last night, my wife was telling me that she was nervous about us moving to America because there are so many shootings in schools there and she didn't want our daughter anywhere near that. I told her it was fine and that it's really not as common as it may seem. Yes, guns are far easier to come by in America compared to Japan which has very strict gun laws. And yes, there are some shootings, but compared to the size of America, and the number of schools we have, it's not really that common, statistically speaking.
I had finally calmed her down about it, and then we wake up to see this on the morning news. Sigh.
Quote
What's pushing these kids to do these things?
Why are so many of them male?
School shootings are a recent phenomena that just happen to coincide with the emergence of the "self esteem" and the "competition is bad" movements in the educational and child rearing establishments, beginning perhaps about 25-30 years ago. One has to wonder if there is a connection between the two.
Beginning with kindergarten, little boys are constantly pumped up on unearned/undeserved self-esteem, shielded from having to deal with any kind of failure experiences (loosing an athletic contest, failing a test, flunking a grade, etc), and forced to repress their natural proclivity to express themselves (i.e. release their feelings) through physically competitive activities) lest they be drugged up with riddlin.
I am not exaggerating! It's not unusual to read in the news where some school system no longer uses red ink to correct grade tests or homework papers because it would hurt the students feelings to learn that they did their assignments incorrectly. Many schools systems have banned "tag" and other school games for the same reasons. I've heard of kid soccer leagues where they don't keep score or require all the kids to get the same amount of game time regardless of their abilities or skills. In some places they have or have tried to ban more traditional sports/activities such as football, dodgeball, etc because they are too rough!
Sooner or later they grow up and meet up with the harsh realities of the real world. They get scorned by the girl or girls they are attracted to or worse by all of the girls. They realize they are not as good at everything as they thought or find that there are things they can't do or have in life. They have no experience in dealing with failure or humiliation of any kind. Add to this all of the emotional energy highs and lows from adolescent hormones and you have a recipe for disaster.
In years past little boys were taught to deal with failure by "sucking it up", "not crying", and "taking it like a man". It's not an easy thing to do; it's a skill acquired through pain and much practice. Unfortunately, in today's world it is fashionable to deny kids the opportunity to learn how to deal with the unpleasentries of life.
Quote
... It is very much a culture thing, combined with the abundant availability of firearms.
This statement is probably correct but not for the reasons Michael Moore gives in his film. Firearms were more plentiful and ubiquitous in the past than they are now but this problem is a recent development in American history/culture. Culture being defined as "learned behavior" would also include behavior learned from a false sense of esteem and lack of failure experiences as well as behavior not learned and being inadequately prepared for life's realities, as dicussed above. Culture would also include behaviorial influences from popular culture such gansta rap, video games, violent movies, etc that were not in existence or as prevalent in the past as they are today.
Speaking as someone who really wanted to kill a bunch of morons in high school it's a general feeling of hopelessness with their situation.
Here are the basics:
1. You are required by law to go to public school until a certain age
2. A lot of teachers, obviously not all of them, are complete morons and will try to indoctrinate you with all kinds of obviously false history for the purpose of patriotism, which makes you hate your country and the people in it in general instead. These are the people in control of your life for 8 hours a day every weekday, and you grow to hate them for their stupidity but can do absolutely nothing about it, they have absolute control over you. Anything you say to contradict them is wrong, they will tell you so, and they will not hesitate to embarrass you for your grasp of reality in front of everyone in your class.
3. High school has a dog-eat-dog mentality for males. The "different" ones are picked on mercilessly, both physically and mentally. They're not really weak, just different, and they know this. They feel increasingly driven to prove it the more the attacks continue, and if they can't do anything about it physically through fighting (which will draw the wrath of the administration, who have a blind eye to the dog-eat-dog attitude, that's just "the way kids are") then they turn to sometimes drastic measures.
4. Even though you can get out or pass a GED once you're in High School everyone, and I do mean everyone, tells you that you'll be a complete moron and loser for the rest of your life, make no money, and get no women if you drop out, which is simply not true and creates a pit of disparity. Matt Stone was interviewed for Bowling for Columbine and he said he would've told the kids if he could (roughly), "High school isn't everything. You get into honors math in the seventh grade, and if you don't do good in that then you can't get into honors math in the eighth grade, and ninth grade, and so on, and your life is over. They create this atmosphere of disparity and high school really isn't everything, it'll be over in like, four years, but it seems like an eternity."
5. [from a Columbine student video]
Student #1: What's your views on high school?
Student #2: Uh, I love it. I learn, I get picked on by bastards who hate me, and the principal's a dick.
Don't get me wrong, I had some very very good friends in school from an early age, and I still hang out with them all the time now. It's just that ALL of us had the same feeling about high school, and without each other for support there's no telling what we could've done. You know what? Probably a massive number of kids have had the intense urge to shoot up their school. The only thing that we can do about it is reform the goddamn public education system, which is a massive cesspool anyway. It's come to the point where they are far more concerned with getting everyone to pass than actually holding a high standard. This is why athletics are God and everyone comes out with a dazed expression and a vague grasp for the basics of what they were supposed to know intimately by the end.
I also know that there will be no education reform. At a local political debate a couple of years ago there was an old lady and former teacher running for re-election in a state congressional seat. The speaker kept saying, "You know, some of these people don't have opponents and don't deserve opponents. Especially this woman, who is a lifetime educator and cares deeply for our schools." A man stands up, "Excuse me, I'm her opponent." He later gets the mic for his few minutes to talk about his concerns and he goes on a diatribe about what's wrong with the education system and how poor the funding and pay are, how this woman hasn't done anything to improve it, he even cited bills that would've passed but she had lobbied down with her standing in the congress as a former educator, then the old lady totally shut him down to massive applause. Way to go, one more for the team.
.
Quote from: Vince Twelve on Thu 11/10/2007 02:36:05Just last night, my wife was telling me that she was nervous about us moving to America because there are so many shootings in schools there and she didn't want our daughter anywhere near that.
I'd feel much safer with my kid in school than, say, crossing (http://www.usa.safekids.org/wtw/tips.html) the street (http://www.usa.safekids.org/content_documents/Ped_facts.pdf) ... and just for comparison (http://www.schoolsafety.us/School-Associated-Violent-Deaths-p-6.html) (open pdf link, page 44 and later for summary ... also covered in this article (http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/09/us-school-shoot.html)).
There was a good movie made in Estonia this year, that adresses what leads to such bloodbaths. It's called "Class" and left me quite breatheless and disturbed for days, but I'm not sure if it's available in english yet.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0988108/
There was an interview about that in a german games magazine some time ago, shortly after the latest school shooting in Germany, with a person who said of himself that he nearly went on a shooting spree once, and it pretty much backs up what has been said in this thread before: Make somebody physically inferior an outsider, continue to bully him all the time, don't let him get any help or chance to change his situation whatsoever, then give him access to firearms and you've created an amok runner.
That's at least what the magazine said >.>
Quote from: Akatosh on Thu 11/10/2007 11:51:53
Make somebody physically inferior an outsider, continue to bully him all the time, don't let him get any help or chance to change his situation whatsoever, then give him access to firearms and you've created an amok runner.
:applause:
I tend to strongly agree with RickJ and Shbaz on this one.
I personally don't find the news of these shootings surprising in the least. When Virginia Tech happened, I was like "Oh, that's sad," but it really didn't shock me in the least. I'm just used to hearing about it.
And that's all because the educational system and culture in America is so screwed up. "OF COURSE they shot up their school! What did you expect!!?," is generally what runs through my mind when I hear about these things.
What DOES shock me is what RickJ said, about the elimination of competitive sports and red ink, and so on. I mean, I knew that they're becoming more and more sensitive to anything that might suggest aggressiveness, but I guess I just couldn't imagine that it's gone this far.
Extra reading:
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=701388
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/11/europe/EU-GEN-Netherlands-School-Stabbing.php
School stabbing here in the Netherlands, today. Sixth such occurrance this year. 16-year old stabbed over a fight concerning a BALLPOINT PEN. A 14 year old stabbed a 16 year old in the NECK with a knife.
What. The. Fuck.
The world's a fucked up place.
I know what will fix it!
Take away the guns.
Oh wait..
Quote from: shbaz on Fri 12/10/2007 01:10:08
I know what will fix it!
Take away the guns.
Oh wait..
At least those school stabbings rarely seem to result in more than one casualty. It's quite a bit harder (both physically and mentally) for a teenager to go on a suicidal killing spree armed with a knife than with a gun.
AFAIK no-one said that making it harder to get access to guns would make everyone just get along, but to me one less casualty would be enough of a justification, especially when there's no good reason not to.
So I think your sarcasm is a bit misdirected.
School violence, what else?
Violence isn't in kids shooting guns, but the things that lead to this.
I remember my 7th and 8th grade, it was hell on earth. If I had access to a firearm at this time, It's quite possible that I would be a piece of statistics. It all starts from kids that doesn't get any physical scolding, I think. I almost never bullied a classmate, because when I was little, my grandpa (and dad, sometimes), took a belt off his pants and gave me this old-school lesson about not behaving and limits to behaving. Almost as my father told me "never attack before physical contact, words don't mean a thing", and it rarely got worse than words... Knowing that being hurt is bad, I rarely did that to anyone else. And all human/children rights activists, eat mud.
I turned out a perfectly normal kid.
There were kids who didn't, and to whom bullying was just an interesting game. There was a girl everybody picked on, and she even made into TV talking about school violence. Fear in replacing "her position" caused no-one to help her. Strongest boy in class punched her into face once and it stays most disgusting view I've ever witnessed. I know that she was desperate enough to go into war against whole city and kill everyone in sight. If she only could. Weird enough, after school, she picked career in security and is a security guard AFAIK.
Quote from: tube on Fri 12/10/2007 10:31:01
So I think your sarcasm is a bit misdirected.
I think it isn't, but who needs another gun debate.
@InCreator: I couldn't agree more :/
I ended up being someone acceptable in the society as I haven't committed a serious crime of violence during my youth despite of everything done to me. But I still can't help feeling a little regret for not going to the school with my father's gun someday and killed/injuried the bullies whenever I see the news of school shootings. I would end up in jail and every good things in my life would collupse, but am still not sure my life would be worse.
With regard to schoolyard bullies, they have been around since before there were schools and in times past when everyone carried a gun everywhere they went. What's different now is that in addition to things, of which I already spoke and that are now fashionable in public schools, is the silly notion that everything can be solved by just talking about it (i.e. diplomacy, negociation, conflict resolution theapy). The problem is that this assumes that each party has something to gain through peaceful resolution, which is not always the case.
Appeasement just encourages a bully to make more demands because there is downside. This is especially true if the bully knows that the victim will avoid a physical confrontation at all costs. The most effective way to deal with a bully is for the victim to not meet any demands and make it clear that a physical confrontation is preferable to giving in to coercion. It doesn't hurt the situation if the bully believes his intended victim is a little bit crazy either. ;)
I have taken my share of bullying and it stopped whenever I found the courage to stand up for myself. In my case the kid was 4 years older, which is a lot when you are only 10-11 years old) and a foot taller. The last time he bothered me I chased him for a block with bood red anger in my heart. I caught him and tore in to him like a lion. I didn't win the fight by a long shot but he got the point that screwing with me was more trouble than it was worth. They have a saying in my wife's family that "Sometimes you have to loose in order to win!".
I don't mean to criticize anyone here, but in my opinion, it doesn't take any courage at all to pick up a gun and go after someone who is unarmed. If you have the courage to stand your ground in the face of a physical confrontation which you probably can't win, will discourage your would be bully and earn respect from your peers.
Sharksweatheart, I know there is a double standard for girls and that they are expected to use guile and finesse instead of brute force. However, I think the same principles apply though the implementation details may differ.
P.S. In case anyone tries to take my advice, for God's sake if you get in a fight make sure there are no weapons, you know guns, knives, etc.
Quote from: RickJ on Sun 14/10/2007 20:50:02
P.S. In case anyone tries to take my advice, for God's sake if you get in a fight make sure there are no weapons, you know guns, knives, etc.
I just hope that no one will take such an advice from the Internet, and a forum.
I "know you" rick and I agree 100% with your post and your previous one, just wanted to say that no reason for a fight really. Unless absolutely necessary. :)
Even if you took the weapons away, some kid who takes karate class could still kick a couple of other kids heads off. Really, full fledge martial arts are just that, skills to KILL. Personally While I don't think guys should just 'suck it up", feelings are important in all genders, though in different ways, I do think we are raising a narcissistic society. We don't seem to prepare adaquitly for failure. I think all these grownups still living with their parents is one of the symptoms, and it isn't just cooking with cheese. We need to not turn every failure in to a success but rather into a learning experience. Bristle cone pine-cones must burn before they sprout, other wise the seed just rots. I fear we are setting up western society for a major rot.
just shoot all the windows in you school and do not kill any one :)
This morning at noon an 18-year-old brought a gun to his school in Tuusula, Finland. The school has been evaquated, and the shooter, who was a student has been captured now. The news say 1 person is certainly dead and 4 badly wounded, though the eyewitnesses told the news that 3 were dead and several wouded. These three would be the principle of the high school and 2 students. he also shot at the police.
Earlier there were videos on youtube by the name of Jokela High School Massacre 7.11.2007 and videos of the person testing out his weapon, a handgun. I wasn't able to find these, apparently they were all removed right after the shooting took place. It was most obvious this was a planned action. Other students said, thathe appeared at school and acted oddly, later violently, and started shooting. The principle called everyone into classrooms, and some excaped through windows.
I can't even find words to how shocked I feel about this. Where did this person get the idea? Or the gun? What were his motives? There must be somtheing really wrong with the world right now. I can't remember feeling like this ever before. Basically the society that I thought was one of the safest has turned into this. Even though it's clear this man was insane.
Also, we don't have a dedicated news channel. And the channel I was watching informed, that there will be a special news right at 15:20, after they first showed two american sitcoms. I think that says a lot of their taste in these things. Oh well. Now the news is on.
Just an update to what Tuomas said. There is now 7 reported dead, including the shooter himself.
Oh, and here is his manifest:
QuoteI am a cynical existentialist, antihuman humanist, antisocial socialdarwinist, realistic idealist and godlike atheist.
SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM! JUSTITIA SUUM CUIQUE DISTRIBUIT! SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS!
I am prepared to fight and die for my cause. I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection.
You might ask yourselves, why did I do this and what do I want. Well, most of you are too arrogant and closed-minded to understand... You will proprably say me that I am"insane", "crazy", "psychopath", "criminal" or crap like that. No, the truth is that I am just an animl, a human, an individual, a dissident.
I have had enough. I don't want to be part of this fucked up society. Like some other wise people have said in the past, human race is not worth fighting for or saving... only worth killing. But... When my enemies will run and hide in fear when mentioning my name... When the gangsters of the corrupted governments have been shot in the streets... When the rule of idioracy and the democratic system has been replaced with justice... When intelligent people are finally free and rule the society instead of the idiocratic rule of majority... In that great day of deliverance, you will know what I want.
Long live the revolution... revolution against the system, which enslaves not only the majority of weak-minded masses but also the small minority of strong-minded and intelligent individuals! If we want to live in a different world, we must act. We must rise against the enslaving, corrupted and totalitarian regimes and overthrow the tyrants, gangsters and the rule of idiocracy. I can't alone change much but hopefully my actions will inspire all the intelligent people of the world and start some sort of revolution against the current systems. The system discriminating naturality and justice, is my enemy. The people living in the world of delusion and supporting this system are my enemies.
I am ready to die for a cause I know is right, just and true... even if I would lose or the battle would be only remembered as evil... I will rather fight and die than live a long and unhappy life.
And remember that this is my war, my ideas and my plans. Don't blame anyone else for my actions than myself. Don't blame my parents or my friends. I told nobody about my plans and I always kept them inside my mind only. Don't blame the movies I see, the music I hear, the games I play or the books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this. This is my war: one man war against humanity, governments and weak-minded masses of the world! No mercy for the scum of the earth! HUMANITY IS OVERRATED! It's time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks!
"Bring back survival of the fittest!" - The Dead Guy
Sorry if that seems flippant, but this guy obviously wasn't smart enough to see that adaptability is the new "fitness." That's what he lacked. That's why he rampaged. That's why he's dead.
His ideas are intriguing to me, and I would be very interested to hear his opinion regarding when, exactly, natural selection ceased.
According to new news reports, he's not dead yet, only critically hurt. Go ask him in the hospital..!
Quote from: vict0r on Wed 07/11/2007 17:38:54Just an update to what Tuomas said. There is now 7 reported dead, including the shooter himself.
Not including the shooter. Seven victims dead: 5 boys, 2 girls and the principal of the school. The shooter himself is currently in intensive care after having shot himself in the head. It's now been about 8 hours since he shot himself, and his prognosis is not so good.
Also, if there's ever a time that I'd want a thread on an internet forum to be mature and respectful, it's now. So in advance I'd ask to please refrain from posting any 'radical' insight of your own, trying to pseudo-analyze how something like this is supposed to be handled, and whatnot. It's only radical to you, attention-whorey, immature and silly to others. So I hope this doesn't degenerate to an argument about existentialism, ideology, and similar such things.
Quote from: ildu on Wed 07/11/2007 18:37:03
Quote from: vict0r on Wed 07/11/2007 17:38:54Just an update to what Tuomas said. There is now 7 reported dead, including the shooter himself.
Not including the shooter. Seven victims dead: 5 boys, 2 girls and the principal of the school. The shooter himself is currently in intensive care after having shot himself in the head. It's now been about 8 hours since he shot himself, and his prognosis is not so good.
That's 8 dead. And I've been fed this thing for 8+ hours now, I don't want to listen to it anymore, so I won't come to this thread for a while.
Quote from: ildu on Wed 07/11/2007 18:37:03Also, if there's ever a time that I'd want a thread on an internet forum to be mature and respectful, it's now.
All these threads turn into what you talk about anyway. What's special about this one? :-\ No offence of course! I understand how you feel and I respect this but when this happends in America, the threads go all analytic..
Quote from: ildu on Wed 07/11/2007 18:37:03
So in advance I'd ask to please refrain from posting any 'radical' insight of your own, trying to pseudo-analyze how something like this is supposed to be handled, and whatnot.
Any reaction at all is healthy, and I certainly don't see the harm in people expressing their anger and opinions and sorting out their feelings in an anonymous, safe environment such as this. It's only when people begin attacking one another as opposed to debating one anothers' opinions that things become... less than helpful.
It's
good to feel angry about this, and it's
good to express that anger, just don't misdirect it.
What always surprises me is why these people, supposedly disenchanted with "society", don't just kill themselves right off the bat?
The fact that they go on a rampage first, raises the probability that it's plain attention that these people crave, and an insane desire to be accepted by the society they claim to abhorr.
His "manifest" is so full of contradictions and naiveties that, if it wasn't so tragic, it would be ridiculous.
Condolences to those familes who lost loved ones.
Quote from: LimpingFish on Wed 07/11/2007 18:58:29
What always surprises me is why these people, supposedly disenchanted with "society", don't just kill themselves right off the bat?
The fact that they go on a rampage first, raises the probability that it's plain attention that these people crave, and an insane desire to be accepted by the society they claim to abhorr.
His "manifest" is so full of contradictions and naiveties that, if it wasn't so tragic, it would be ridiculous.
Condolences to those familes who lost loved ones.
Well, by getting into media they can spread their beliefs so that more people might go about doing the same thing and further spreading it!
I have a few theories but I'm saving them for when I get the opportunity to co-write an opera.
It would have a similar logo to High School Musical but it would be called High School Massacre. We will have so many awards.
More likely he would spout such nonsense in an attempt to convince, not only the world, but also himself that there was reason behind his actions. That he was forced into the situation. In his own eyes it makes him a martyr. Maybe even a hero.
Instead of a sad child who couldn't cope with the realities of life, and decided that if he killed some people then everybody else would have to, at least, acknowledge his existence.
Which is probably why he didn't just kill himself at the outset.
Again, condolences to the families of his victims.
Quote from: Candall on Wed 07/11/2007 18:47:25
Quote from: ildu on Wed 07/11/2007 18:37:03
So in advance I'd ask to please refrain from posting any 'radical' insight of your own, trying to pseudo-analyze how something like this is supposed to be handled, and whatnot.
Any reaction at all is healthy, and I certainly don't see the harm in people expressing their anger and opinions and sorting out their feelings in an anonymous, safe environment such as this. It's only when people begin attacking one another as opposed to debating one anothers' opinions that things become... less than helpful.
It's good to feel angry about this, and it's good to express that anger, just don't misdirect it.
Yeah, I understand. I wasn't speaking about any of the existing posts. Usually threads such as these just seem to unravel to a point where the discussion simply gets ridiculous and immature. That's about the point where I tune out, and I'd like to keep tuned into this one. Anyway, I was refering to the most extreme kinds of insight, and not specifically pertaining to a school shooting thread either, but to a number of controversial topics.
That said, I agree with LimpingFish. It's quite a double-standard to claim to have been outcasted by society and disrespected, and still announce that you're tantamount to a god.
My first reaction to this whole thing was "let's ban all guns", while my parents' reaction was "video games, music, movies, internet - all bad". Though after calming down a bit and learning that the gun was purchased completely legally and with a recommendation from his resident gun club (gun permits are generally very difficult to acquire here), I realized that guns are hardly a main cause of something like this, nor are violent media as we all would probably argue. Though, I did start to think about the selection of games out there and ones that I occasionally play myself, and was surprised to come to the conclusion that the vast majority involve killing in some way or another. But, that's a whole other conversation to have.
I think it's most a case of the well-being of youths in our country and around the world, and as the authorities are now emphasizing, without pointing any fingers, a case of social service. People are now asking how this wasn't detected in his behaviour, why people on the internet didn't react in time, and what's pushing young people to do things like this, being quite a new and worrying trend. It's a very similar reaction to earlier school shootings, and especially VirginiaTech, where the similarities are very eery.
Yes, getting people to direct their anger at their targets has always been the tricky part.
Quote
My first reaction to this whole thing was "let's ban all guns", while my parents' reaction was "video games, music, movies, internet - all bad". Though after calming down a bit and learning that the gun was purchased completely legally and with a recommendation from his resident gun club (gun permits are generally very difficult to acquire here), I realized that guns are hardly a main cause of something like this, nor are violent media as we all would probably argue. ...
I think it's most a case of the well-being of youths in our country and around the world, and as the authorities are now emphasizing, without pointing any fingers, a case of social service. People are now asking ... and what's pushing young people to do things like this ...
I whole heartedly agree with you on these points. To answer the question "What's pushing young people to do things like this?", IMHO, at least in the US, kids are sheltered from failure experiences from an early age. Everything is structured and arranged so that every kid will succeed. Even when they fail they are told that they have succeeded. In US schools it's fashionable to build self esteem, deserved or not, at all costs. Unfortunately this can be done for only so long. Eventually kids grow up and begin to experience the harsh realities of life and are totally unprepared. So now ask yourself what's the most traumatic thing that happens to nearly everyone at this guy's age? How much do you want to bet this guy doesn't have a girlfriend?
FYI, the shooter is dead by now, bringing the total (and AFAIK final) victim count to nine.
Quote from: ildu on Wed 07/11/2007 19:34:08
My first reaction to this whole thing was "let's ban all guns", while my parents' reaction was "video games, music, movies, internet - all bad". Though after calming down a bit and learning that the gun was purchased completely legally and with a recommendation from his resident gun club (gun permits are generally very difficult to acquire here), I realized that guns are hardly a main cause of something like this.
I just learnt that Finland is the third most armed country in the world, counting by weapons per citizen (only USA and Yemen are worse), and that you can get a license at the age of 15. Although you naturally have better knowledge than me in this case, it seems unlikely that getting a license is very hard, compared to other countries.
Why were you calmed by the fact that he bought the gun legally? Isn't that a reason to worry?
Obviously, the fact that weapons are abundant and easy to obtain isn't a
reason for why these things happen; the reasons are always psycho-social and cultural and multi-layered. But one must account for factors that might amplify the extent of the consequences.
Yeah, but it goes like, you can get a gun, but not just like that. This person was a sharp shooter, or that was his registered hobby, also professionals have one. You don't get one for protection, also you can't have just if you just feel like it at the moment, you have to go through a lot of bureaucracy before you get a lisence. That's different than a spontaneous killing spree.If I went nuts and wanted to kill everyone it'd take me several months to get a gun. Yet, having said this, I still don't support the gun law and would rather that no-one was allowed to have one, same goes everywhere.
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So now ask yourself what's the most traumatic thing that happens to nearly everyone at this guy's age? How much do you want to bet this guy doesn't have a girlfriend?
Meaning you speculate he got dumped by a girlfriend and that pushed him over the edge? Not quite sure what you're saying.
Reading his manifest was a chilling experience for me. He's saying that the masses are ignorant, the governments are corrupt, justice is not served, and he is speaking of natural selection. It sort of scared me because these are a lot of the things I talk about frequently: government corruption, the seemingly hopeless and incurable ignorance of the masses and society as a whole, and so on. So what's to keep me from eventually taking up a gun and killing people?
Sort of a scary question, until I realized something: He's one of them; the oppressors. He did absolutely nothing to fight government corruption. He just killed innocent people. He went in and forced his philosophy and beliefs on other people. Yet, isn't that what he was supposedly fighting against?
Yes, the governments are corrupt, yes many people are stupid, yes society is fucked up. But killing others only makes it worse. If he didn't want to be in society any more, he should've killed himself only.
These things are so complicated and scary to me.
What's going to happen to society and government? Are things ever going to improve? Or are we just going to kill ourselves off?
Like I said earlier, I doubt his "philosophy" was any more than a way for him to justify his desire to punish innocent people for the way he believed life was unfairly treating him.
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So now ask yourself what's the most traumatic thing that happens to nearly everyone at this guy's age? How much do you want to bet this guy doesn't have a girlfriend?
I could bet all my money, because i know this guy sent an apology to her girlfriend through SMS just before the incident.
Quote from: RickJ on Wed 07/11/2007 20:48:15
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My first reaction to this whole thing was "let's ban all guns", while my parents' reaction was "video games, music, movies, internet - all bad". Though after calming down a bit and learning that the gun was purchased completely legally and with a recommendation from his resident gun club (gun permits are generally very difficult to acquire here), I realized that guns are hardly a main cause of something like this, nor are violent media as we all would probably argue. ...
I think it's most a case of the well-being of youths in our country and around the world, and as the authorities are now emphasizing, without pointing any fingers, a case of social service. People are now asking ... and what's pushing young people to do things like this ...
I whole heartedly agree with you on these points. To answer the question "What's pushing young people to do things like this?", IMHO, at least in the US, kids are sheltered from failure experiences from an early age. Everything is structured and arranged so that every kid will succeed. Even when they fail they are told that they have succeeded. In US schools it's fashionable to build self esteem, deserved or not, at all costs. Unfortunately this can be done for only so long. Eventually kids grow up and begin to experience the harsh realities of life and are totally unprepared. So now ask yourself what's the most traumatic thing that happens to nearly everyone at this guy's age? How much do you want to bet this guy doesn't have a girlfriend?
In addition, I do think that everyone is getting plenty of ideas and visual input from movies/games/stories/the news. I mean to even start thinking that, on your own, it's kinda hard. But now, everyone on the internet has every little detail about those things, and maybe, even maybe, AGS members have fantasies about this kind of thing. "I hate those bastards, I will take a gun and kill them, like that guy did in...". Of course fantasising and doing it, is a large large step, but it's 1 single step, as far as I can see.
Bottom line is that the knowledge is there. A violence is being turned into some kind of cult imagery some times (look at CGTalk and everyone drawing monsters, and heavy distorted faces, etc. Very few go and draw... a nice face. And why should they? A nice face can be found in a normal pic...)