Adventure Game Studio

Hello fellow AGS'ers, I am making a game set in the film noir era, so i am looking for music from and based on those films.I have looked ALl over the internet but i havn't found anything that makes me think of that steriotypical style.i want songs for night clubs, rainy streets, steamy shots, chase shots, furs and federoa's. If you think i am being lazy, i am not, i am just tapping a resorce better then any search engine. the humen mind. to tell the truth i have been loking for the last 3 weeks. and ihave only come up with stuff from "grim fendango", which i think it would be kindof WRONG to use. so plz, help me :'(

You could try searching for blues and jazz music instead of "film noir" music, as it may yield higher results.

Or you could use stuff from Discworld Noir...

Yep, "film noir" won't turn up anything. Film Noir music IS jazz/blues! Go out and buy yourself a Benny Goodman CD :) I guarantee enjoyment.

Private Eye jazz... Check out some 30's-50's Jazz, preferably the slow swing type of music. Also look into beat poetry and that sort of stuff. Grim Fandango really captures that whole era well.

Quote from: Geoffkhan on Fri 10/02/2006 05:20:36
Private Eye jazz... Check out some 30's-50's Jazz, preferably the slow swing type of music. Also look into beat poetry and that sort of stuff. Grim Fandango really captures that whole era well.

OOHH...YA! thats why i love it baby, grim fendango that is.) to all the rest of you, thanx for all the tips,I will try them.
(told you the human brain is better then any search engine ;D

I often prefer to ask people instead of googling, as if you aren't sure of the exact term (or, in this case, what exactly you're looking for) then your results will be poor.
Whereas the human brain can accept a concept as a search term (eg. Film Noiry music).

Yeah, I do kinda agree that the Discworld Noir soundtrack is extremely sterotypical for the Film Noir-sound (and bloody good, if you ask me), but if you want some original music that isn't made as a soundtrack but still sounds very Film Noir, I recommend checking out a german instrumental doom/horror/film noir-jazz group called Bohren & Der Club of Gore.

One of the most incredible moody and brilliant bands ever, they certainly capture that big city/urban jungle/"dark-and-gloomy-and-grimy"-sound better than anyone else.
The lineup for their songs are usually just a basic, jazzy, hihat-and-snare beat with a plodding, slow double-bass, a haunting fender rhodes piano melody and from time to time some reverb-drenched saxophone leads that cuts through the thick athmosphere like a knife and just tops it off beautifully.

Their album "Sunset Mission" from 2000 is perhaps their best example of the Noir-ish vibes, but I also recommend the album after that one, "Black Earth", which I personally think is better, but is a lot darker, slower and more doom/horror-jazz than Noir-jazz. :) Heh. But all of it is great stuff.

It's http://www.bohrenundderclubofgore.de if you want to check them out. :)

I hate Noir. It shows the fear for ethnic minorities like blacks, latino's, homo's, jews and in the X-files even aliens is correct. These minorities are here to destroy the family values. To come in contact with their culture will rot your life just like that of the detective.

edit: that fear is unjust.

Or watch some films to get the feel and then google for similar tunes

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 16:54:12
I hate Noir. It shows the fear for ethnic minorities like blacks, latino's, homo's, jews and in the X-files even aliens is correct. These minorities are here to destroy the family values. To come in contact with their culture will rot your life just like that of the detective.

What the devil are you talking about? Exactly which noir films are you talking about here?

Any noir films. What are you refering too?

No films noir that I can think of deal at all with minorities, much less suggest that they are the source of corruption in society.

Just to get started, explain to me how what you said applies to The Maltese Falcon, The Big Sleep, Double Indemnity, Sunset Blvd., The Third Man, Touch of Evil, or Kiss Me Deadly. Or, if we're talking neo-noir: Chinatown, Body Heat, Blood Simple, or Insomnia (1997).

To me it's that slow string bass that's what makes up most of the feel... but you're going to need either a real upright bass, or some really good samples...

Wes Montgomery

Miles Davis

Charles Mingus

Eric Dolphy

Grant Green


Check around for some of their work.


Bt

Quote from: Snarky on Sat 11/02/2006 19:21:31
No films noir that I can think of deal at all with minorities, much less suggest that they are the source of corruption in society.

Just to get started, explain to me how what you said applies to The Maltese Falcon, The Big Sleep, Double Indemnity, Sunset Blvd., The Third Man, Touch of Evil, or Kiss Me Deadly. Or, if we're talking neo-noir: Chinatown, Body Heat, Blood Simple, or Insomnia (1997).

Christy Burns (http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/erasure_burns.zip) seems to agree with me. (p.198 l.19)

Who to believe. An anonymous internet scripting kiddy who hounds me, or an graduate in English and author of several books and essays...

ps: you might want to chech out note 6 & 7.
[Although film noir has focused fairly exclusively on the white, middle-class man's individualism- challenged by femme fatale's destabilitation- Julian Murphet points out that in the period of noir's emergence in the 1940, France was dealing with decolonization and emerging Algerian crisis, while the US was experienceing the white flight to suburbs, which reconstructed cities as "black," plpulated as they were by variety of ethnic poor. Historically, then, noir posits a repression of blackness and racial diversity.J

[In The Maltese Falcon, Joel Cairo is identified as potentially gay and definetely foreign, both in his dress and manner.]

I've watched many of them and the bad, plotting, scheming, cheating villains have nothing to do with minorities etc. Only secondary characters. But again, I was looking mostly at cars...  :-[

have you ever seen a film noir, jet?

And who is Christy Burns? People who think film noir is racist or whatever it is you said are far outweighed by people who don't... So why hold this one person in such high regard?

If a movie is made during a time of crisis and reflects that in the movie it... How is this bad?

Because;
A, She sees The X-Files as modern noir, just like me.
B, She sees aliens in the X-files as symbolism for the (american) fear of losing cuture to ethnic minorities, just like me.

For you last question see first post.

Right well, I'm done... That's just too wacky for me.

I guess the black goo in Xfiles is people's fear of black people integrating into our society... And that one Xfiles about cockroaches that killed people was about mexicans and that one Xfiles about snake like fish materializing in salt water to kill people was about... Jews?

How would they go about telling countless writers that worked on that show that the secret symbolism behind the show is that americans are afraid of losing culture and having them all go "Good idea!"

I think you'll find the aliens in the X-Files are, uh, aliens. No silly racist subtext.

Sorry, but I don't get what a film noir is... :(

Apparently, it's some pretty complex shit...

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 11/02/2006 21:02:08
Right well, I'm done... That's just too wacky for me.

I guess the black goo in Xfiles is people's fear of black people integrating into our society... And that one Xfiles about cockroaches that killed people was about mexicans and that one Xfiles about snake like fish materializing in salt water to kill people was about... Jews?

How would they go about telling countless writers that worked on that show that the secret symbolism behind the show is that americans are afraid of losing culture and having them all go "Good idea!"

Well, there was an episode where a few jews gassed in WW2, turned out to be aliens. And that alien shape shifter who looks black in order not to be noticed.

I don't understand your comment. X-files is packed with paranoia and anxiety. I'm not the first to say so, yet you claim this is "wacky?"

film noir (http://www.filmsite.org/filmnoir.html)

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 20:58:44
B, She sees aliens in the X-files as symbolism for the (american) fear of losing cuture to ethnic minorities, just like me.

Apart from the "american" bit, which I think should include more countries, I agree with series/films containing symbolisms for this fear. Just take a crime/spy/war series or films Ã, from the 60s the 70's the 80s and so on and make a note of who the villains are...and how they change accordingly to foreign affairs.

"I don't understand your comment. X-files is packed with paranoia and anxiety. I'm not the first to say so, yet you claim this is "wacky?" "

So is the Xmen comic and movies, Men in Black, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, do these fit in the same slot as noir?

The Pianist, Schindler's List, Life is Beautiful... All of these are filled with paranoia and anxiety.

Or is it possible that sometimes a theme can be taken from real life and applied to another style of story telling without condoning the theme?

We must be very carefull when trying to see symbologies in the work of some directors/producers/writers...

Spoiler about the "Reservoir Dogs" film.

Spoiler

Smart Ass Interviewer: We can see a scene in the film where an orange ballon enters in take when one of the cars leaves the scene... Was that an attempt to psycosomatizate the spectator and revealing that the traitor of the storyline is Mr. Orange?

Quentin Tarantino: Man, no! There was a kid, there, with a ballon. He released the ballon and it entered flying in the take. We were short of money, so we couldn't repeat the scene."

[close]

And I am sure that there are a plenty of examples like that, so...

Again, Eric, I don't understand your comment. I feel as you want me to look at your left hand so you can punch me out with a right hook. Should I duck?

You quote me, yet you don't awnser me. Again, am I the first to tell you that the X-Files is packed with paranoia and anxiety that is characteristic to American culture? Do you find this untrue, and why?


Yes, it is possible that sometimes a theme can be taken from real life and applied to another style of story telling without condoning the theme. But not in this case.

I think the point is you're talking complete garbage, jet.

That is the first I heard of xfiles being "packed with paranoia and anxiety that is characteristic to American culture" as you say.

Anyone else reading this, have they heard what Jet is talking about before?

In my opinion it's mostly about what is real and what is truth and no matter how many levels of the onion you peel, there are always more.

Men in Black is more about people being afraid of aliens so they take on human form and try to be "normal humans".

Xmen is even crazier when it comes to parelleling fear of the unknown throughout the earth's history. Mutants being mass arrested and put in camps, forced labor, mass genocide...

Xfiles is a sci-fi show that kind of stumbles around and doesn't get much done. If it was trying to convey these themes you're impressing on it it did it so poorly that it's hard to even see them.

I think you should watch Star Trek if you want a tv show that tried to deal with these themes. They had a black lady on that show!

"Yes, it is possible that sometimes a theme can be taken from real life and applied to another style of story telling without condoning the theme. But not in this case. "

Why? Explain, please.

"Well, there was an episode where a few jews gassed in WW2, turned out to be aliens. And that alien shape shifter who looks black in order not to be noticed."

Those are 2 episodes off the top of my my head that I could think of also... The show was on for how many years? How many writers did they go through? How many episodes were there? In my opinion this is just a case of a writer taking a theme or bit of history and writing it into their story.

QuoteX-files is packed with paranoia and anxiety. I'm not the first to say so, yet you claim this is "wacky?"

It was paranoia and anxiety about your actual alien.

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 20:33:32Who to believe. An anonymous internet scripting kiddy who hounds me, or an graduate in English and author of several books and essays...

How about thinking for yourself? If you really think that film noir has obtrusive racist connotations, please give examples. Don't believe some high and mighty douchebag just because he/she has a degree. I didn't believe Pat Robertson when he said that God sent a tornado into New Orleans because it was full of sin or that Ariel Sharon got a stroke because he divided sacred land. Should I believe him just because he has a high social status, owns a tv network and is a preacher?

If this Christy Burns makes this kind of conclusion about film noir, is it not possible to make the exact same conclusions about regular movies? Why were there so many ethnic people on the airplane in Con Air? Why are Russians and Germans always portrayed in a bad light? Why does the black dude always die first? Why doesn't the black dude ever marry the white girl?

Joel Cairo in Maltese Falcon being foreign has nothing to do with racism. As for gayness, there was no hint of such a thing in the whole movie. Just because someone acted in the 40's in a way that might be marginally identified as gay by americans in the modern world doesn't mean he was. If this was any proof, you might as well say Lauren Bacall played a tranny in each of her movies (she was a masculine, tough type).

And anyways, do you know who the most wholesome and kind character in the history of film noir was? It was Sam, the piano player from Casablanca. He was black, too.

Oh sweet Jesus. Now Film Noir is evil?!?

Don't people have anything better to do than pinching off yet more, steaming "symbolism" turds?

I couldn't give a raw rats ass...

Try finding symbolism in that!

Quote from: ildu on Sat 11/02/2006 21:46:51
Why does the black dude always die first?

Off-topic, but someone explain me, why!

Okay give me a moment. So many questions, so many awnsers.

MiB is about turning an urban myth connected with paranoia into something positive in the Spielburgian way. Just like ET and CEot3K, aliens are your friends (thinks Spielberg).

Xmen is mostly about punching bad guys. But it has a self-reflection of mankind thing too, like the mutant work camps to solve problems.

X-files; the fact that nothing changes is the first reason of why I don't like it anymore. The second is the fear for culture theme.

Star Trek: Anti Communism undertone.

"Yes, it is possible that sometimes a theme can be taken from real life and applied to another style of story telling without condoning the theme. But not in this case. "
Because Carter filmed the American Paranoia Culture. Things are scarier when fantastic things become real.
Carter based the X-files on real paranoia claims to turn the X-files into a succes.

Quote from: Adamski on Sat 11/02/2006 21:38:01
I think the point is you're talking complete garbage, jet.

Not in this case. Great arguments, though. I can see you put a lot of effort in your one-liner.

Farl: Somethimes they DO put symbolism into series/films. Like the white clothes the girl wears in Ring symbolises that she is dead.

Quote from: Becky on Sat 11/02/2006 21:43:51

QuoteX-files is packed with paranoia and anxiety. I'm not the first to say so, yet you claim this is "wacky?"

It was paranoia and anxiety about your actual alien.

ET, Mr Spock and the Tribble are aliens. Are you scared of them?

LimpingFish, in that case, don't yopu have anything better to do?

QuoteET, Mr Spock and the Tribble are aliens. Are you scared of them?

Guess what?  Things are portrayed differently in different films.  That is the marvel of fiction.

My point still stands, the X-Files is about the paranoia and fear and the challenges of stretching your belief boundaries to accept the unknown, unknowable, and inexplicable.  If they use the medium of science fiction and aliens, then they're free to portray fictional creatures in any way they like.  It doesn't automatically become a alien-to-ethnic minority symbol because they portray something creepy and spooky and alien to be threat and something to be scared of.

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 20:33:32
Who to believe. An anonymous internet scripting kiddy who hounds me, or an graduate in English and author of several books and essays...

Quote from: ildu on Sat 11/02/2006 21:46:51
How about thinking for yourself?

Oh man! I was going to say that! Ã, :)

This Burns character doesn't even appear to be a very prominent critic or expert, so her status as an authority is questionable. And in any case she's merely quoting Julian Murphet. If you'd look up his article (http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&se=gglsc&d=98736526), you'd see that he's making a much weaker claim. I'm afraid if you want to argue your point, you'll have to do so yourself.

And check your paranoia: I am not "hounding" you. In fact, I had to look up our posting histories to even understand what you were talking about.

Quote[In The Maltese Falcon, Joel Cairo is identified as potentially gay and definetely foreign, both in his dress and manner.]

In The Maltese Falcon, Sam Spade is not corrupted by coming in contact with Joel Cairo. If there are homophobic overtones to Peter Lorre's character, and I think that's a bit of a stretch, they're just an incidental bit of prejudice from that era caught on film, just as it might be in any other film from the time. Film noir does not have an agenda of oppressing, or repressing, minorities.

As evidence, it's weak, weak, weak.

As for science fiction and alien invasion stories, critics have pointed out a relationship to fear of all kinds of social upheaval since forever. Just today there was an article (http://www.salon.com/ent/tv/feature/2006/02/10/manimals/) on Salon about how this seaon's sci-fi shows (Surface, Threshold, Invasion) can be seen as metaphors for interracial marriage.

We stick to secondary characters and forget about the leading ones that are mainly white, rich and all the other correct things...

Eddie Mars, Brigid O'Shaunnesy, Archers' wife, the younger Sternwood, Norma Desmond...Do they belong in minorities? It;s tehm who rot the heroes' lives, not the various Cairos.

QuoteNot in this case. Great arguments, though. I can see you put a lot of effort in your one-liner.

There is no argument here, you're talking out of your anus. It requires no more effort than that.

Quote from: ildu on Sat 11/02/2006 21:46:51

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 20:33:32Who to believe. An anonymous internet scripting kiddy who hounds me, or an graduate in English and author of several books and essays...

How about thinking for yourself? If you really think that film noir has obtrusive racist connotations, please give examples. Don't believe some high and mighty douchebag just because he/she has a degree. I didn't believe Pat Robertson when he said that God sent a tornado into New Orleans because it was full of sin or that Ariel Sharon got a stroke because he divided sacred land. Should I believe him just because he has a high social status, owns a tv network and is a preacher?

I came to the conclusion first, then I read the article.
I already gave some examples, but here are some more.
In Bladerunner, The character played by Ford asks someone else to translate what his partner is saying, although he could understand him. He clearly shows that he doesn't like foreigners.
The second episode of the X-Files shows black triangular ufo's above an airbase (the aurora project). The airplanes are built from alien technoligy. The test pilotes who fly the airplanes change in personality. It you come in contact with aliens (different cultures) you will change.

Quote
If this Christy Burns makes this kind of conclusion about film noir, is it not possible to make the exact same conclusions about regular movies? Why were there so many ethnic people on the airplane in Con Air? Why are Russians and Germans always portrayed in a bad light? Why does the black dude always die first? Why doesn't the black dude ever marry the white girl?

The bad guys live in a bad world. If you want to let people spot the bad guy before the main character does, you got to trow in some hints. I live in a white suburban area, I can't spot any crime here. There is crime in the city. You can spot a hooker, a drugdealer or a group of hooligans by looking at people. It doesn't mean they are, but you still avoid them. We don't make up the rules. We just follow them.

Quote
Joel Cairo in Maltese Falcon being foreign has nothing to do with racism. As for gayness, there was no hint of such a thing in the whole movie. Just because someone acted in the 40's in a way that might be marginally identified as gay by americans in the modern world doesn't mean he was. If this was any proof, you might as well say Lauren Bacall played a tranny in each of her movies (she was a masculine, tough type).

Maltese Falcon, the book.

Quote
And anyways, do you know who the most wholesome and kind character in the history of film noir was? It was Sam, the piano player from Casablanca. He was black, too.

Happy donkey, one dimentional and only used to show that Bogart was not suburbian. Casablanca also used the term "the usual suspects," which means "pick up all the blacks". (The Marx Brothers are Jewish, and in the film A Night In Casablanca, Harpo is arrested.

Quote from: Adamski on Sat 11/02/2006 22:46:56

QuoteNot in this case. Great arguments, though. I can see you put a lot of effort in your one-liner.

There is no argument here, you're talking out of your anus. It requires no more effort than that.

Talking like a real moderator there, keep it up.
Seriously, I'm studying American Studies on the University. Three teachers, one is a professor, one is a doctor and on is a assistand professor, have discussed this culture issue. So if you say I'm lying, which means my teachers are lying, it proves that you don't know shit from a sunday.

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 11/02/2006 21:02:08
How would they go about telling countless writers that worked on that show that the secret symbolism behind the show is that americans are afraid of losing culture and having them all go "Good idea!"

Outwardly, most people these days abhor the thought of prejudice. Yet, evidence has shown that many people in our culture tend to show signs of unconscious discrimination. For example, taking an implicit association (https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/") test may reveal that a person who consciously says that racism is bad actually has an easier time associating positive character traits with white people and negative character traits with black people than vice versa.

The point is, you don't necessarily have to be outwardly prejudiced to hold prejudiced attitudes. In fact, I'd wager that if it really were the case that the X-Files had racist symbolism, it would most likely be of the unconscious variety. After all, American culture does have a long history of fearing strangers, as evidenced in that cute cartoon in the middle of Bowling for Columbine. I'd say it's quite plausible that despite minorities and women being treated better than before, some of that residual fear still exists in 2006.

That being said, I don't watch the X-Files, and despite having written at least one detective adventure game, haven't seen all that many film noir movies. Therefore, I can't comment specifically on those cases.

Can somebody give me examples of films/series/books that are not xenophobic, racist and all the things mentioned in this thread?

Jet, no one said you were lying, it's just no one agrees with you.

Quote from: cp on Sat 11/02/2006 23:11:19
Can somebody give me examples of films/series/books that are not xenophobic, racist and all the things mentioned in this thread?

By that, do you mean stories that include no mention of xenophobia at all, or can we include stories that seem to speak out against xenophobia rather than treat it as normal?

I can think of plenty examples of the latter, but not many of the former. I think it shows that fear of the unknown is still a very prevalent problem that we're still combatting today, rather than being at a point where we can just plain act as if it doesn't exist.

Yes but would you agree that sometimes an alien is just an alien?

The same way a mexican in a movie can just be a mexican?

Eric

Unless he's a mexican't

Quote from: Snarky on Sat 11/02/2006 22:31:58
This Burns character doesn't even appear to be a very prominent critic or expert, so her status as an authority is questionable. And in any case she's merely quoting Julian Murphet. If you'd look up his article (http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&se=gglsc&d=98736526), you'd see that he's making a much weaker claim. I'm afraid if you want to argue your point, you'll have to do so yourself.

I'm doing so right now. Burns explains it detailed and deep.

Quote
And check your paranoia: I am not "hounding" you. In fact, I had to look up our posting histories to even understand what you were talking about.[/qoute]What is to expect from a small attention span.

Quote[In The Maltese Falcon, Joel Cairo is identified as potentially gay and definetely foreign, both in his dress and manner.]

In The Maltese Falcon, Sam Spade is not corrupted by coming in contact with Joel Cairo. If there are homophobic overtones to Peter Lorre's character, and I think that's a bit of a stretch, they're just an incidental bit of prejudice from that era caught on film, just as it might be in any other film from the time. Film noir does not have an agenda of oppressing, or repressing, minorities.

I said THEME, me think.

Quote
As evidence, it's weak, weak, weak.

You first argumet is untrue, your second is redundant and your third is propaganda (repeat a simple messege).

Quote
As for science fiction and alien invasion stories, critics have pointed out a relationship to fear of all kinds of social upheaval since forever. Just today there was an article (http://www.salon.com/ent/tv/feature/2006/02/10/manimals/) on Salon about how this seaon's sci-fi shows (Surface, Threshold, Invasion) can be seen as metaphors for interracial marriage.

(As is Kong)
Therefore one could say the X-Files is modern day noir.

Quote from: cp on Sat 11/02/2006 23:11:19
Can somebody give me examples of films/series/books that are not xenophobic, racist and all the things mentioned in this thread?

Yes, [ur]=http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=3085]Bobobobo bobobo bobobobo[/url].

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 11/02/2006 23:21:52
Jet, no one said you were lying, it's just no one agrees with you.

T__T Why not? Is it the lack of smileys? I can do smileys. C|:3
Well, I found the link between noir, the X-Files and paranoia culture very revealing, since things that made me wonder are now confirmed.
If you don't believe me, then I have to try harder to convince you.

I wonder what will lo_res_man make of all this...Found any tunes yet or watched some of us getting sleepy?

Quote from: The Inquisitive Stranger on Sat 11/02/2006 23:27:06
By that, do you mean stories that include no mention of xenophobia at all, or can we include stories that seem to speak out against xenophobia rather than treat it as normal?

I mean that films are supposed to say a story and are products of the producers' local culture. If they think a topic is catchy, they include it. If they think the opposite is even more catchy, they include the opposite. They go on in circles around the social problems, not really trying to solve them, just to get some fame out of them. Ã, I can't think of any examples of "innocent" film/book so Ã, I can demonise film noir.

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 23:31:21
Yes, Bobobobo bobobo bobobobo.

That's what I thought. So why pick at a specific kind?

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 11/02/2006 23:29:00
Yes but would you agree that sometimes an alien is just an alien?

The same way a mexican in a movie can just be a mexican?

Eric

Unless he's a mexican't

Don't you mean m***can't?

Okay, so who's responsible for spilling the Racism Bucket all over the GenGen?

jet: what why why

Quote from: Pesty on Sat 11/02/2006 23:38:09


Don't you mean m***can't?

Ah, shaddup already!  :P

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 11/02/2006 23:29:00
Yes but would you agree that sometimes an alien is just an alien?

Well, since as far as we know, aliens don't exist, we tend to use the concept as a metaphor for, well, anything that's mysterious and unknown. And even if aliens do exist, the way we often hypothetically react to them speaks volumes: freak out and blow them to bits because we assume by default that they're going to blow us to bits.

When you get movies with cute and friendly aliens rather than evil, destructive ones, the poor creatures tend to still get misunderstood and feared. They just can't win, can they?

The fact that aliens are even called aliens at all also speaks volumes.

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 23:06:35
So if you say I'm lying, which means my teachers are lying, it proves that you don't know shit from a sunday.

So if your teacher held a banana up in front of you (you well knowing that this is a banana) and called it an orange, and said that he had discussed it with some professors(believing these are any smarter than normal people), you would blindly follow him and call it orange the rest of your life? You can not believe what someone say to you, just because they have a degree. You must question what is told you, no matter what authority the person talking to you have.

As for the sub-plots in film noirs, i could easily pull out fifteen racistic, etc themes from it, even though it actually is not the intention. Even though it is a possibility doesnt mean its true.

Quote from: Pesty on Sat 11/02/2006 23:38:09
Okay, so who's responsible for spilling the Racism Bucket all over the GenGen?

jet: what why why

I don't see how talking about ethnic minorities will stamp me as a racist. None has claimed that one is superior because its skincolor is pale/dark, so the Racism Bucket is not toppled yet. Not even shaken.

Quote from: vict0r on Sat 11/02/2006 23:59:19
So if your teacher held a banana up in front of you (you well knowing that this is a banana) and called it an orange, and said that he had discussed it with some professors(believing these are any smarter than normal people), you would blindly follow him and call it orange the rest of your life? You can not believe what someone say to you, just because they have a degree. You must question what is told you, no matter what authority the person talking to you have.

And sometimes things are just as they appear. A teacher isn't payed to lie, but payed to tell the truth. They don't hand out doctines out of chocolate suprise eggs, they have studied for years. These people are proud of their knowlege, and want to share it. Or is this a silly way to justify bad grades.

Quote
As for the sub-plots in film noirs, i could easily pull out fifteen racistic, etc themes from it, even though it actually is not the intention. Even though it is a possibility doesnt mean its true.

It is true.

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 23:06:35
I came to the conclusion first, then I read the article.
I already gave some examples, but here are some more.
In Bladerunner, The character played by Ford asks someone else to translate what his partner is saying, although he could understand him. He clearly shows that he doesn't like foreigners.

1. Blade Runner is not a classic film noir. It's not even a straight modern film noir.
2. Just because Deckard doesn't like "foreigners," that doesn't mean the film has anything against them. Deckard is an unlikeable guy in several ways.

QuoteThe second episode of the X-Files shows black triangular ufo's above an airbase (the aurora project). The airplanes are built from alien technoligy. The test pilotes who fly the airplanes change in personality. It you come in contact with aliens (different cultures) you will change.

This example is only evidence if you accept that The X-Files is noir. Since in a later post you argue that The X-Files is a noir show because of its xenophobia, this is a circular argument.

Based on this evidence, it would be more reasonable to argue that "minorities corrupt family values" is a message found in science fiction, not film noir.

QuoteMaltese Falcon, the book.

It should be unnecessary to point out that Dashiell Hammett's novel is not film noir. Notice the word "film" in the term? Besides, it was published in 1930, before the time period Murphet and Burns are talking about.

QuoteHappy donkey, one dimentional and only used to show that Bogart was not suburbian. Casablanca also used the term "the usual suspects," which means "pick up all the blacks". (The Marx Brothers are Jewish, and in the film A Night In Casablanca, Harpo is arrested.

This whole discussion is moot, since Casablanca is not a film noir.

Quote
And check your paranoia: I am not "hounding" you. In fact, I had to look up our posting histories to even understand what you were talking about.[/qoute]What is to expect from a small attention span.

And we're back to insults. Classy.
I guess it's hard to accept that I just don't care enough about you to remember.

Quote

QuoteIf there are homophobic overtones to Peter Lorre's character, and I think that's a bit of a stretch, they're just an incidental bit of prejudice from that era caught on film, just as it might be in any other film from the time. Film noir does not have an agenda of oppressing, or repressing, minorities.

I said THEME, me think.

Actually, you said neither. You implied that noir had a xenophobic message when you said: "It shows the fear for ethnic minorities like blacks, latino's, homo's, jews and in the X-files even aliens is correct."

If all you're really saying is that repression of minorities is a theme in film noir, that the genre brings the issue up for discussion, you'll have to explain again why you "hate Noir."

(As an aside, if you want to sound intellectual, use "methinks." "Me think" makes you sound like a cave man.)

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As evidence, it's weak, weak, weak.

You first argumet is untrue, your second is redundant and your third is propaganda (repeat a simple messege).

Why don't you respond to the substance of my arguments instead of criticizing my rhetorical devices?

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 00:01:58

Quote from: Pesty on Sat 11/02/2006 23:38:09
Okay, so who's responsible for spilling the Racism Bucket all over the GenGen?

jet: what why why

I don't see how talking about ethnic minorities will stamp me as a racist. None has claimed that one is superior because its skincolor is pale/dark, so the Racism Bucket is not toppled yet. Not even shaken.

I don't know, I don't remember saying "JET IS A RACIST HE HATES BLACK BABIES" but you're really good at finding racism in things that have no racism, like the X-Files so maybe I got the point across wrong. I merely meant that you were talking about how racist film noir is. Racism is about more than just skin color, you know.

The Racism Bucket has splashed it's contents all over this thread!

Quote from: vict0r on Sat 11/02/2006 23:59:19

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 23:06:35
So if you say I'm lying, which means my teachers are lying, it proves that you don't know shit from a sunday.

So if your teacher held a banana up in front of you (you well knowing that this is a banana) and called it an orange, and said that he had discussed it with some professors(believing these are any smarter than normal people), you would blindly follow him and call it orange the rest of your life? You can not believe what someone say to you, just because they have a degree. You must question what is told you, no matter what authority the person talking to you have.

I was just about to argue the same thing. So what if a couple of professors have they're own opinions. Disagreement won't reveal any sort of truth or lies. This issue is not black and white.

But I'm kinda getting confused with all the talk about individual episodes of irrelevent tv shoes and aliens and shite. Are we discussing if there is racism in film noir or not? You can basically pull any kind of connotation right out of your ass if you just go overboard with it. Surely if there's racism in film noir, there's racism in other media as well. Why is it getting singled out? Just because it's gritty, melancholic and portraying urban underdog life doesn't mean it gives any kind of negative influence over minorities. Is Boyz in the Hood or any other gansta movie guilty of racism because it portrays minorities as criminals? Is this not the exact same connect you get when you compare foreign bad guys in film noir?

And I do agree with you on some points. For example, anyone who's ever read Raymond Chandler will know that he writes in a very racist way, using the n-word and portraying minorities as second-class citizens. But I blame that totally on the state of affairs at the time the books were written. Why would this portrayal be offensive, when the situation was exactly the same in reality? During the 40's and 50's minorities were indeed second-class citizens, no doubt about it. The fact that white men painted themselves black and ridiculed blacks in various musical performances is equally racist. That's why Con Air isn't considered racist; because the state of affairs nowadays is what it is portrayed as.

So if you could humor me and state a conclusion of your arguments as bullets or something, that would be great. We're getting way off track with the random episode, racist undertone conspiracy theories. That, and aliens.

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 23:06:35
I came to the conclusion first, then I read the article.

As he already said, he believed it was an orange already.

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 00:01:58
And sometimes things are just as they appear. A teacher isn't payed to lie, but payed to tell the truth. They don't hand out doctines out of chocolate suprise eggs, they have studied for years. These people are proud of their knowlege, and want to share it. Or is this a silly way to justify bad grades.
It is true.

The aswer i was looking for. Most teachers arent proud of their knowledge. Most teachers dont even know what they are talking about! They read something in a book, and repeat it, so that you should learn what is in the book, and get paid for it. And what if your three teachers were on marihuana the day of this so-called discussion? Have your any evidence that they were not? ANY at all?

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 00:01:58
It is true.

What a good argument! Seen as you have not said one thing that backs your arguments up in this discussion, this doesnt make any sense.

Quote from: ildu on Sun 12/02/2006 00:28:43

I was just about to argue the same thing. So what if a couple of professors have they're own opinions. Disagreement won't reveal any sort of truth or lies. This issue is not black and white.

This is my point. Things is not all black and white, as Jet makes it look. Sure, some film noirs may have some sort of sub-plot. But not all, as Jet claims.

Quote from: MrColossal on Sun 12/02/2006 00:36:49
As he already said, he believed it was an orange already.

;D

Quote from: Snarky on Sun 12/02/2006 00:10:53

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 23:06:35
I came to the conclusion first, then I read the article.
I already gave some examples, but here are some more.
In Bladerunner, The character played by Ford asks someone else to translate what his partner is saying, although he could understand him. He clearly shows that he doesn't like foreigners.

1. Blade Runner is not a classic film noir. It's not even a straight modern film noir.
2. Just because Deckard doesn't like "foreigners," that doesn't mean the film has anything against them. Deckard is an unlikeable guy in several ways.

Blade Runner is not noir, hmmm.

Quote

QuoteThe second episode of the X-Files shows black triangular ufo's above an airbase (the aurora project). The airplanes are built from alien technoligy. The test pilotes who fly the airplanes change in personality. It you come in contact with aliens (different cultures) you will change.

This example is only evidence if you accept that The X-Files is noir. Since in a later post you argue that The X-Files is a noir show because of its xenophobia, this is a circular argument.[/qoute]
Your culture is part of your identity. Loss of ones culture is loss of identity.
[qoute]
Based on this evidence, it would be more reasonable to argue that "minorities corrupt family values" is a message found in science fiction, not film noir.

A contradiction.

QuoteHappy donkey, one dimentional and only used to show that Bogart was not suburbian. Casablanca also used the term "the usual suspects," which means "pick up all the blacks". (The Marx Brothers are Jewish, and in the film A Night In Casablanca, Harpo is arrested.

This whole discussion is moot, since Casablanca is not a film noir.[/qoute]Hey, I didn't bring it up.
[qoute]

Quote
And check your paranoia: I am not "hounding" you. In fact, I had to look up our posting histories to even understand what you were talking about.[/qoute]What is to expect from a small attention span.

And we're back to insults. Classy.
I guess it's hard to accept that I just don't care enough about you to remember.
[/qoute]

Quote from: Snarky link=topic=23898.msg302393#msg302393Screw you.

A hypocrit.

Quote

Quote

QuoteIf there are homophobic overtones to Peter Lorre's character, and I think that's a bit of a stretch, they're just an incidental bit of prejudice from that era caught on film, just as it might be in any other film from the time. Film noir does not have an agenda of oppressing, or repressing, minorities.

I said THEME, me think.

Actually, you said neither. You implied that noir had a xenophbic messsage when you said: "It shows the fear for ethnic minorities like blacks, latino's, homo's, jews and in the X-files even aliens is correct."
If all you're really saying is that repression of minorities is a theme in film noir, that the genre brings the issue up for discussion, you'll have to explain again why you "hate Noir."
(As an aside, if you want to sound intellectual, use "methinks." "Me think" makes you sound like a cave man.)

"xenophbic messsage," never said that. The evil in the world are ethnic minorities. Which would make it a theme, just like a film set in space would have a space theme.
And you don't know how a cave man talks like. (I bet you claim you do)

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Quote

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As evidence, it's weak, weak, weak.

You first argumet is untrue, your second is redundant and your third is propaganda (repeat a simple messege).

Why don't you respond to the substance of my arguments instead of criticizing my rhetorical devices?

Why do you bring up rhetorical devices in the first place?

Quote from: Pesty on Sun 12/02/2006 00:24:47

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 00:01:58

Quote from: Pesty on Sat 11/02/2006 23:38:09
Okay, so who's responsible for spilling the Racism Bucket all over the GenGen?
jet: what why why

I don't see how talking about ethnic minorities will stamp me as a racist. None has claimed that one is superior because its skincolor is pale/dark, so the Racism Bucket is not toppled yet. Not even shaken.

I don't know, I don't remember saying "JET IS A RACIST HE HATES BLACK BABIES" but you're really good at finding racism in things that have no racism, like the X-Files so maybe I got the point across wrong. I merely meant that you were talking about how racist film noir is. Racism is about more than just skin color, you know.
The Racism Bucket has splashed it's contents all over this thread!

The X-Files has aliens from another world who don't get along with mankind, how more racistic can you get. If I talk about it or not, that doesn't make the facts go away.

Listen, pal, I don't want any aliens coming along, ripping my head off, and laying their eggs down my throat so that their alien babies can incubate in my still warm corpse until they hatch and eat my remains. If that's racism, then yes, I'm racist against aliens who want to rip my head off and lay their eggs down my throat. Don't drink out of my water fountain, egg-laying aliens!!!

Quote from: Pesty on Sun 12/02/2006 00:24:47
...but you're really good at finding racism in things that have no racism, like the X-Files so maybe I got the point across wrong.

Things that have no racism at all, or things that have no more racism than everything else?

I think it's unfair to say that racism is specifically a film noir theme. I also think it's unfair to say that film noir does not contain any racism. Everything is a product of its time; racism was prevalent in the time of film noir, and it's still prevalent, though less obviously than before, today. I think ildu summed up my point on this quite well in an earlier post.

Quote from: vict0r on Sat 11/02/2006 23:59:19
You can not believe what someone say to you, just because they have a degree. You must question what is told you, no matter what authority the person talking to you have.

Should we question what you are telling us about questioning what is told to us, then?

I wouldn't say authority is useless; if people have done a lot of prior studies and found relevant concrete evidence to support a point, it is certainly more useful than speculation from someone who isn't an expert on the subject. However, if the authority in question is irrelevant, then that's when you should be questioning. It is, after all, a logical fallacy to say that nine out of ten dentists agree that boxers are better than briefs.

Quote from: MrColossal on Sun 12/02/2006 00:36:49

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 23:06:35
I came to the conclusion first, then I read the article.

As he already said, he believed it was an orange already.

And sometimes things are just as they appear.

Quote from: vict0r on Sun 12/02/2006 00:39:45

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 00:01:58
It is true.

What a good argument! Seen as you have not said one thing that backs your arguments up in this discussion, this doesnt make any sense.

I wouldn't be the first.

Quote

Quote from: ildu on Sun 12/02/2006 00:28:43
I was just about to argue the same thing. So what if a couple of professors have they're own opinions. Disagreement won't reveal any sort of truth or lies. This issue is not black and white.

This is my point. Things is not all black and white, as Jet makes it look. Sure, some film noirs may have some sort of sub-plot. But not all, as Jet claims.

Plot has nothing to do with theme. You could have a Romeo and Juliet in space. But you do need two groups who both feel superior to the other. You say that this is b&w thinking?

Quote from: Pesty on Sun 12/02/2006 01:16:02
Listen, pal, I don't want any aliens coming along, ripping my head off, and laying their eggs down my throat so that their alien babies can incubate in my still warm corpse until they hatch and eat my remains. If that's racism, then yes, I'm racist against aliens who want to rip my head off and lay their eggs down my throat. Don't drink out of my water fountain, egg-laying aliens!!!

Well, you have this fear because of sci-fi media like the X-Files. If I see an alien I don't know how to react. Should I set it on fire or give it a glass of water. I just don't know (apart from taking a picture).

Was that a quote from a movie, Pesty? It sounds familiar.

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 01:25:09

Quote from: MrColossal on Sun 12/02/2006 00:36:49

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 23:06:35
I came to the conclusion first, then I read the article.

As he already said, he believed it was an orange already.

And sometimes things are just as they appear.

Exactly! Somtimes an alien is just an alien, sometimes a movie dealing with a dark gritty storyline has nothing to do with secret feelings towards black people learning to read, therefore not all film noir can be generalized! We agree finally.

ps, "I wouldn't be the first." just because you feel other people haven't offered examples to back up their arguements doesn't mean you don't have too since you're the one that brought the whole thing up.

Quote from: The Inquisitive Stranger on Sun 12/02/2006 01:19:25

Quote from: Pesty on Sun 12/02/2006 00:24:47
...but you're really good at finding racism in things that have no racism, like the X-Files so maybe I got the point across wrong.

Things that have no racism at all, or things that have no more racism than everything else?

I think it's unfair to say that racism is specifically a film noir theme. I also think it's unfair to say that film noir does not contain any racism. Everything is a product of its time; racism was prevalent in the time of film noir, and it's still prevalent, though less obviously than before, today. I think ildu summed up my point on this quite well in an earlier post.

Yeah, I didn't really mean things don't have any racism at all. I know a lot of things are racist to a point, but to say the X-Files is racist because sometimes there are mean aliens that spook people is kind of silly.

And by kind of, I mean super totally.

Jet: Dude, I'm not saying all aliens want to shove their ovipositors in me, but if they intend to, I don't want them to. That doesn't make me a racist! I don't think I'm better than the alien who wants to kill me, I just don't want a belly full of squirmy baby aliens. If it has no intention of doing anything mean to me, they can drink out of my water fountain all they want.

And no, it's not a quote from a movie. I'm just awesome.

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 00:56:07
Blade Runner is not noir, hmmm.

I did not say that. You need to read more closely.

When critics and academics talk about film noir (without explicitly qualifying or extending the term), they mean a set of movies made between the late thirties and the late fifties or early sixties. This is the classic film noir. Everything made in a similar vein since then is neo-noir or post-noir. The difference is that film noir had become a recognized genre with its own name and easy-to-spot style. The later movies were therefore often consciously mimicking the classic films noir.

Blade Runner isn't even a mainstream neo-noir film. It is also a science fiction movie. That makes it tech-noir, or future noir. Tech-noir films have several distinct characteristics that separate them from other noir.

Therefore, Blade Runner is not a good example. It doesn't fall under the strict definition of "film noir," and the type of film it is differs in important respects from what's normally understood by film noir.

Quote

QuoteThis example is only evidence if you accept that The X-Files is noir. Since in a later post you argue that The X-Files is a noir show because of its xenophobia, this is a circular argument.

Your culture is part of your identity. Loss of ones culture is loss of identity.

Did you not understand what I wrote?

Quote

Quote
Based on this evidence, it would be more reasonable to argue that "minorities corrupt family values" is a message found in science fiction, not film noir.

A contradiction.

Hmmm?

Quote

QuoteAnd we're back to insults. Classy.
I guess it's hard to accept that I just don't care enough about you to remember.

Quote from: Snarky link=topic=23898.msg302393#msg302393Screw you.

A hypocrit.

You really do carry a grudge, don't you?
In an interesting bit of circularity, that casual remark was in response to you calling me a hypocrite back then. History truly does repeat itself.

Quote

QuoteYou implied that noir had a xenophbic messsage when you said: "It shows the fear for ethnic minorities like blacks, latino's, homo's, jews and in the X-files even aliens is correct."
If all you're really saying is that repression of minorities is a theme in film noir, that the genre brings the issue up for discussion, you'll have to explain again why you "hate Noir."

"xenophbic messsage," never said that. The evil in the world are ethnic minorities. Which would make it a theme, just like a film set in space would have a space theme.

"The evil in the world are ethnic minorities."
That's a thesis, or a message. You could loosely call it a theme, but since "theme" can also mean a topic or a subject matter, I prefer a more unambiguous word.

And I guess we finally have your argument stated in proposition form: According to film noir, the evil in the world is ethnic minorities.

That's a pretty strong statement, and one I haven't seen you produce one shred of real evidence for.

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(As an aside, if you want to sound intellectual, use "methinks." "Me think" makes you sound like a cave man.)

And you don't know how a cave man talks like. (I bet you claim you do)

Is it possible that I was talking about cave men as portrayed in popular culture? Snarky think so.

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Quote
Why don't you respond to the substance of my arguments instead of criticizing my rhetorical devices?

Why do you bring up rhetorical devices in the first place?

I use rhetorical devices to make my posts more dynamic, and because it amuses me.

Hahahahahahaha!

Oh my gut hurts... this thread has to stop.

I was once again wondering how a fairly blah thread got to 4 pages overnight. I should have guessed, but silly old me. I didn't expect this ^_^

QuoteListen, pal, I don't want any aliens coming along, ripping my head off, and laying their eggs down my throat so that their alien babies can incubate in my still warm corpse until they hatch and eat my remains. If that's racism, then yes, I'm racist against aliens who want to rip my head off and lay their eggs down my throat. Don't drink out of my water fountain, egg-laying aliens!!!

This almost made me pee, it was so funny!

Right.

Serious response.

Jet, now I've watched most of the X-Files. A lot. The first 4 seasons are sitting on a shelf in my house. Possibly the 5th too, I can't remember. I haven't seen all that much Noir though so I'll leave that one alone.

The X-Files isn't paranoia about aliens. All you people who said that should be ashamed of yourselves.

The paranoia in X-Files is related to the government! Anyone who honestly thinks the struggle in the X-Files is about the aliens is wrong. The real struggle is Mulder and to a lesser degree Scully's constant fight with the higher-ups, their realisation that they're being used and yet must allow themselves to do so in order to continue their work, and their bitter struggle to discover just what the feck the government is DOING or has done in the past.

Let's not forget the show is only -somtimes- about aliens. Heck, not even that often. MOST episodes are about guys that can fit through keyholes, and people that can set things on fire. Strange bugs that eat you alive brought about by prehistoric natural distaster, and occasionally the supernatural - ghosts.

Occasionally, we'll get an alien episode. These got more frequent as the show went on, and I might point out, as the show got WORSE. But that's a mute point.

Admittedly, the continuous storyline in the show revolved around aliens, but it ended up being less about aliens and more about super humans. And yet, through all this, the MAIN theme was the struggle of two FBI agents against a hidden government and all the dynamics of the lies and truths surrounded with the information they were given from "friends" and "enemies".

The X-Files was about GOVERNMENT at the heart of it. THAT was the paranoia!

GOVERNMENT!

Okay, now that we have that fact established (and I challenge you to ask any other self respecting X-Files fan to disagree with that... if so, I'll retract my statement that that was a fact), let me address your point of you without going through all of your arguments as everyone else has done.

Now, I can't say with 100% certainty that you're wrong. Noone can. Noone except Christ Carter, and the dozens and dozens of individual writers that wrote episodes for the show. But your ideas are really just insane. Chris Carter wrote a story about wacky things happening to two FBI agents. He never planned on the show being as popular as it was, or running for as long. Of course aliens were a common theme, they're something most humans are sure must exist through sheer mathetical probability and YES, humans are, as any creature is, afraid of the unknown. I personally have very little fear of aliens, and I'm instead deathly afraid of ghost girls with bleeding eyes. Meh, that's me.

But anyway, as I said before, that show was NOT about aliens in the first few seasons. It was about anything strange. It was about strange happenings. The common theme throughout it all was a fight with the government, and secrets surrounding them. Because THAT'S what people hav in this world, particularly in a place like America. It's a very romantic notion to think that the people that control our lives are hiding things from us. Chris Carter didn't even know -what-, which is why the show was so bloody ambiguous and went for so long (I half suspect Lost is doing the same thing), but he made it up as he went along, trying to make it all seem mysterious and sinister, and keep the viewers watching.

The reason the central focus is on aliens and not scary Russian worm bacteria, is because that's already a common theme in American culture. Roswell! Duh! Western culture is obsessed with stories about "real-life" alien encounters. Many, many people believe aliens have already visited Earth, so it's a VERY convenient plot to say that's what the government is hiding. Something that will make us go, "I KNEW it, you bastards!".


Now, one of the most tell-tale signs that your argument, Jet, is crazy, is that everyone thinks you're crazy! It's again a very romantic notion to think you know it all, you know what noone else has thought of (besides some weirdo woman on the internet) and we're all wrong. We just haven't opened our eyes, right? In actuality, the X-Files is one of the biggest TV shows ever and a good deal of people watching it are smart, are looking for symbolism in places it doesn't exist (far more in this show than in most others!) and many of those have even studied American psychology/racism studies. And yet, you're the only one here to have even heard of this theory. It's barely a theory because as far as I can tell, in the whole world, it's just you and this other woman.

Of course, it would be a kind of delicious irony if it turned out we were all just trying to throw you, the young Mulder, off track ^_^ But I think that would prove my point also.

So the X-Files is...racist against the government?

Oh yeah! Dude, where have you been? DUH.

Quote from: Pesty on Sun 12/02/2006 01:16:02
Listen, pal, I don't want any aliens coming along, ripping my head off, and laying their eggs down my throat so that their alien babies can incubate in my still warm corpse until they hatch and eat my remains. If that's racism, then yes, I'm racist against aliens who want to rip my head off and lay their eggs down my throat. Don't drink out of my water fountain, egg-laying aliens!!!

And don't forget, they'll take all of our jobs too!

Oh, Squinky, your comment way back on the second page or so made me laugh a lot too ^_^ Can't remember what it was, but good stuff!

Thank you, I'm here all week.

Quote from: Kinoko on Sun 12/02/2006 02:59:13
Noone except Christ Carter...

I love that typo...

Quote from: Squinky on Sun 12/02/2006 03:16:04

Quote from: Pesty on Sun 12/02/2006 01:16:02
Listen, pal, I don't want any aliens coming along, ripping my head off, and laying their eggs down my throat so that their alien babies can incubate in my still warm corpse until they hatch and eat my remains. If that's racism, then yes, I'm racist against aliens who want to rip my head off and lay their eggs down my throat. Don't drink out of my water fountain, egg-laying aliens!!!

And don't forget, they'll take all of our jobs too!

Oh my god, you're right! This brings new meaning to illegal alien!
Our society will be corrupt! Noooooo

Next the aliens will want the vote and the ability to marry our pureblooded white women!! Not in MY backyard, my friend!

Quote from: Kinoko on Sun 12/02/2006 02:59:13
MOST episodes are about guys that can fit through keyholes, and people that can set things on fire. Strange bugs that eat you alive brought about by prehistoric natural distaster, and occasionally the supernatural - ghosts.

Indeed. It's most about paranormal than extraterrestrians. And I can't see why I should say hello to the mother of all cockroaches I found on my door handle the other day, just in case it is a friendly alien. I'm too old to scream, but the beast ended up in the garden...Brrr.

Quote from: Kinoko on Sun 12/02/2006 02:59:13
Occasionally, we'll get an alien episode. These got more frequent as the show went on, and I might point out, as the show got WORSE. But that's a mute point.

No, that was season 8, when we got religion in the classic X-filesque distorted way: A baby from a woman who was not supposed to have it, a man who rises from the dead, people who follow a bright light on the sky and find the birthplace, which is a filthy building in nowhere,etc etc...


I do think most films/shows/books have racial content, consciously or not, but I can't accept it's their main purpose...They just use what is available in the culture around them. First it was the Russians, then the Serbs, now the Iraqui, the Chinese started appearing from nowhere...And haven't you noticed how series like Startrek, Stargate etc describe a route to unification of all Earth under one Nation (depends on the series to say which one) and, having cleared all threats and cultural mistakes, they proceed to -conquering discovering new worlds? I'm not sure the producers/writers/directors do it on purpose, they just "read" the spectators minds...and know that it will sell and that somehow, someone like me will think they are revealing and say in a few years "See? I told you the government was working on pulsar weapons!!"

Still, I 'm not sure how all this will help the original poster find some tunes...

Where was I, ah yes, 2:45 am.

Quote from: MrColossal on Sun 12/02/2006 01:29:21

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 01:25:09

Quote from: MrColossal on Sun 12/02/2006 00:36:49

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 23:06:35
I came to the conclusion first, then I read the article.

As he already said, he believed it was an orange already.

And sometimes things are just as they appear.

Exactly! Somtimes an alien is just an alien, sometimes a movie dealing with a dark gritty storyline has nothing to do with secret feelings towards black people learning to read, therefore not all film noir can be generalized! We agree finally.

I salute thee.

*jet, gives Eric a firm handshake

Quote from: Pesty on Sun 12/02/2006 01:31:11
And no, it's not a quote from a movie. I'm just awesome.

VG cats.

Quote from: Snarky on Sun 12/02/2006 01:57:12

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 00:56:07
Blade Runner is not noir, hmmm.

I did not say that. You need to read more closely.
When critics and academics talk about film noir (without explicitly qualifying or extending the term), they mean a set of movies made between the late thirties and the late fifties or early sixties. This is the classic film noir. Everything made in a similar vein since then is neo-noir or post-noir. The difference is that film noir had become a recognized genre with its own name and easy-to-spot style. The later movies were therefore often consciously mimicking the classic films noir.
Blade Runner isn't even a mainstream neo-noir film. It is also a science fiction movie. That makes it tech-noir, or future noir. Tech-noir films have several distinct characteristics that separate them from other noir.
Therefore, Blade Runner is not a good example. It doesn't fall under the strict definition of "film noir," and the type of film it is differs in important respects from what's normally understood by film noir.

It doesn't fall under film noir, yet it is film noir. A contradiction.

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QuoteThis example is only evidence if you accept that The X-Files is noir. Since in a later post you argue that The X-Files is a noir show because of its xenophobia, this is a circular argument.

Your culture is part of your identity. Loss of ones culture is loss of identity.

Did you not understand what I wrote?

Did you understand what I wrote, because what film noir tries to prove is that ethnic minorities are a threat, not people.

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Based on this evidence, it would be more reasonable to argue that "minorities corrupt family values" is a message found in science fiction, not film noir.

A contradiction.

Hmmm?

In American hard-boiled detective fiction, hoodlums are repeately cast as foreigners and marginals, those who must be beaten back because they pose a threat to the white, heterosexual, middle-class values.

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QuoteAnd we're back to insults. Classy.
I guess it's hard to accept that I just don't care enough about you to remember.

Quote from: Snarky link=topic=23898.msg302393#msg302393Screw you.

A hypocrit.

You really do carry a grudge, don't you?
In an interesting bit of circularity, that casual remark was in response to you calling me a hypocrite back then. History truly does repeat itself.

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Nope. I don't know if you carry a grudge eighter, so I make my stand point very clear.

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"The evil in the world are ethnic minorities."
That's a thesis, or a message. You could loosely call it a theme, but since "theme" can also mean a topic or a subject matter, I prefer a more unambiguous word.
And I guess we finally have your argument stated in proposition form: According to film noir, the evil in the world is ethnic minorities.
That's a pretty strong statement, and one I haven't seen you produce one shred of real evidence for.

This isn't new. I'm not the first one to claim this, sadly. Whitey left the city, leaving behind the scum. In Bladerunner, the upper and middle class left the planet.

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Why don't you respond to the substance of my arguments instead of criticizing my rhetorical devices?

Why do you bring up rhetorical devices in the first place?

I use rhetorical devices to make my posts more dynamic, and because it amuses me.

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Is this why you are so bitter?

Quote from: Kinoko on Sun 12/02/2006 02:59:13
Oh my gut hurts... this thread has to stop.

Yes, lets have all the same feelings thoughts and opinions.

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Jet, now I've watched most of the X-Files. A lot. The first 4 seasons are sitting on a shelf in my house. Possibly the 5th too, I can't remember. I haven't seen all that much Noir though so I'll leave that one alone.
The X-Files isn't paranoia about aliens. All you people who said that should be ashamed of yourselves.
The paranoia in X-Files is related to the government! Anyone who honestly thinks the struggle in the X-Files is about the aliens is wrong. The real struggle is Mulder and to a lesser degree Scully's constant fight with the higher-ups, their realisation that they're being used and yet must allow themselves to do so in order to continue their work, and their bitter struggle to discover just what the feck the government is DOING or has done in the past.

X-Files has many paranoia and anxieties. Fear of the government is just one.

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Okay, now that we have that fact established (and I challenge you to ask any other self respecting X-Files fan to disagree with that... if so, I'll retract my statement that that was a fact), let me address your point of you without going through all of your arguments as everyone else has done.

X-Files has many paranoia and anxieties. Fear of the government is just one.

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Now, I can't say with 100% certainty that you're wrong. Noone can. Noone except Christ Carter, and the dozens and dozens of individual writers that wrote episodes for the show. But your ideas are really just insane. Chris Carter wrote a story about wacky things happening to two FBI agents. He never planned on the show being as popular as it was, or running for as long. Of course aliens were a common theme, they're something most humans are sure must exist through sheer mathetical probability and YES, humans are, as any creature is, afraid of the unknown. I personally have very little fear of aliens, and I'm instead deathly afraid of ghost girls with bleeding eyes. Meh, that's me.

You eighter love sci-fi or hate it. The X-Files was a giant hit. Carter must have done something that apealed to the masses. Enter paranoia culture. Carter is no fool who just ramdomly wrote words down and handed it out to FOX. He knew what he was doing.

QuoteNow, one of the most tell-tale signs that your argument, Jet, is crazy, is that everyone thinks you're crazy! It's again a very romantic notion to think you know it all, you know what noone else has thought of (besides some weirdo woman on the internet) and we're all wrong. We just haven't opened our eyes, right? In actuality, the X-Files is one of the biggest TV shows ever and a good deal of people watching it are smart, are looking for symbolism in places it doesn't exist (far more in this show than in most others!) and many of those have even studied American psychology/racism studies. And yet, you're the only one here to have even heard of this theory. It's barely a theory because as far as I can tell, in the whole world, it's just you and this other woman.

Don't forget that my teachers and the 80 students they lecture must be crazy too. No, sometimes things are just like as Christy Burns, prof. Verhoeven and I say it is.

The tyranny of the ignorant majority over the discoveries of the minority.
The majority say adventure games are dead. So according to you, your own adventure game does not excist.

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Of course, it would be a kind of delicious irony if it turned out we were all just trying to throw you, the young Mulder, off track ^_^ But I think that would prove my point also.

I just answer the questions that I can answer. If you don't want to believe me then I'm sorry I failed you. But I'm not making this up. It is odd that some react as if they have found out Santa Clause isn't real, and yet want to contradict this.

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 10:13:22
Don't forget that my teachers and the 80 students they lecture must be crazy too. No, sometimes things are just like as Christy Burns, prof. Verhoeven and I say it is.

What they say is not necessarily a lie, but keep in mind that some other professor in some other Uni may have written a thesis on the same theme with different opinions. I don't know of any, but writing contradicting books and handing them to students as exam material  happens all the time in the academic world and that's what keep thinking students interested. They compare and decide.  Well, they write what they must at the exam, but they can still disagree... :-\

When I went to school, we had this english teacher that would write on the chalkboard, masses of paragraphs for us to copy, and as she wrote it we would point out all the mistakes she's made, like spelling and gramma.

Also I am reminded of when my mother came from America as a little girl and moved to england. The teachers would tell her she is spelling words wrong, for example "You missed out the 'u' in colour".

Maybe this just shows that many english teachers are rubbish. Oh well.

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 01:25:09
I wouldn't be the first.

You wouldn't be the first to what? Come up with lame arguments you cant back up? Oh... Yeah... Rharpe do that alot too...

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 10:13:22
The tyranny of the ignorant majority over the discoveries of the minority.
The majority say adventure games are dead. So according to you, your own adventure game does not excist.

So what you are saying, is that you actually think that you are smarter than us? Your second comment actually disagree with that. The fact that commercial adventure games, has a small chance of returning, doesnt mean that peoples hobbies vanish in thin air.

Quote from: cp on Sun 12/02/2006 10:21:45

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 10:13:22
Don't forget that my teachers and the 80 students they lecture must be crazy too. No, sometimes things are just like as Christy Burns, prof. Verhoeven and I say it is.

What they say is not necessarily a lie, but keep in mind that some other professor in some other Uni may have written a thesis on the same theme with different opinions. I don't know of any, but writing contradicting books and handing them to students as exam material happens all the time in the academic world and that's what keep thinking students interested. They compare and decide. Well, they write what they must at the exam, but they can still disagree... :-\

True, but it was part of the paranoia culture that was discussed that week. A major part in how Americans think. You can't skip that part.

Quote from: vict0r on Sun 12/02/2006 10:31:07

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 01:25:09
I wouldn't be the first.

You wouldn't be the first to what? Come up with lame arguments you cant back up? Oh... Yeah... Rharpe do that alot too...

To answer your question:
Simply put. Everything in film noir that isn't white, middle class, hetrosexual, male is bad.
I could say that the butler who doesn't think much of the main character in sunset boulevoir is german, therefore the bad guy. (spot the bad guy)
However, his german blood is unimpotant in the movie. (He's 99% American)
Yet it does explain why he acts in an "un-american" way (from powerfull director to lapdog). (Shag a german and women will rule the world, therefore destroy the family structure I.E. family values. Keep things American, die like a man, don't live like a lapdog)

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 10:37:05
Everything in film noir that isn't white, middle class, hetrosexual, male is bad.

But not everything that is one or all of them, is good. The villains are white, heterosexual, middle or upper class and usually male. So how this distinction shows a discrimination?

Quote from: cp on Sun 12/02/2006 11:00:58

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 10:37:05
Everything in film noir that isn't white, middle class, hetrosexual, male is bad.

But not everything that is one or all of them, is good. The villains are white, heterosexual, middle or upper class and usually male. So how this distinction shows a discrimination?

To throw the audience off. To keep the audience guessing and awake.
Besides, do you think that the public would tolerate a black criminal making more money than them?

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 11:08:45
Besides, do you think that the public would tolerate a black criminal making more money than them?

Not in the 40s or 50s. But again this reminds me of Agatha Christie's novels. No rich, educated, middle/upper class murderess would use anything but elegant methods with the less bloodshed possible, like poison, tiny knives or small firearms, only the servants cut throats etc.

Again, in film noir, I think only the secondary characters belong to minorities. The main villains don't. Or I haven't seen any. How can I think of oppression of the minorities when I watch the typical American man/woman being the main criminal character and all those typical american men/women hiding dark secrets and helping them to prevent things like a social scandal? Is Gutman black? Is Bridgid mexican? Is Carmen Sternwood homo? Is Eddie Mars german?

EDIT

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 11:08:45To throw the audience off. To keep the audience guessing and awake.

I laughed when someone in here called you "mulder" , but on second thoughts...    :P

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 11:08:45

Quote from: cp on Sun 12/02/2006 11:00:58

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 10:37:05
Everything in film noir that isn't white, middle class, hetrosexual, male is bad.

But not everything that is one or all of them, is good. The villains are white, heterosexual, middle or upper class and usually male. So how this distinction shows a discrimination?

To throw the audience off. To keep the audience guessing and awake.
Besides, do you think that the public would tolerate a black criminal making more money than them?

Oh, come on. You can't really believe that. First you give this ridiculous statement about how all that isn't white is portrayed as evil and then you offer this inane downright stupid conspiracy theory that really doesn't make any sense. You can't really think this genre is that deep of a insidious conspiracy.

In Cry of the City, the main character and most of the supporting characters are minorities fighting against the white establishment. In Touch of Evil, the main character was Mexican and the baddies were white. In Journey to Fear the supporting character, the force of good authority is a Turkish policeman and the bad guy is white. Are these all as such to throw people off. Where is this secret commission of film noir bigotry located? You make it sound like this big scheme.

And you still haven't offered any solid points. None of this X-Files alien bullshit is solid. If you can come up with a decent argument on this matter, I promise I'll vote you for best debater in next years FOREGO's. Seriously, it really sounds like you're substituting your teachers opinions as your own.

Jet, I don't know how much you value my opinion, but we've met on occasions, you know I'm not in the habit of jumping on internet bandwagons or anything. I read this whole thread. You have no concrete argument. If there's any racist undercurrent in the noir genre, it's exactly that, a subconscious undercurrent that is present on most creative work. There may be exceptions, I'm not ruling out one director making a noir movie with specific ethnic bias in mind, but I wouldn't say the whole of the genre is to be condemned on grounds of... racism, of all things. Just sounds like a lot of politically correct bullshit to me. I do not believe your position (that noir, on the whole, is consciously racist) can be held up truth through evidence. You have provided no evidence, you have provided theory from a specific level of description, and it's easy to approach anything from any level of description that suits one. I can argue against, or for, homosexuality from passages of the bible. I can argue for or against ethnic clensing by citing select passages of "Mein Kampf". There's no 'truth' there. There's just post-modern literary critique which is absurdly useful in deconstructing intention and meaning, just from discussing the form.

Furthermore, you seem to be avoiding all the pertinent arguments made against your case by snarky, pete or eric or whomever. Do you read what people tell you, try to make sense of them and approach the probability of them being more grounded than yours, or do you just read them and react to them, trying in any way to prove your're 'right'? Nobody's 'right' when they critique art, but some positions can be accepted more easily than others. I for one, having watched a lot of film noir but having no bias either for or against it, cannot say honestly that there's anything to accept in your position as you've presented it so far.

Furthermore you are rudely disservicing the people you're discussing with, by quoting sometimes very thorough positions, with a lot of thought put behind them, and then replying by an unrelated one-liner or another. You're being reactionary. If in the bottom line, you're not prepared to accept that there's a chance of you being wrong about this, then you should not be discussing it.

Quote from: Helm on Sun 12/02/2006 13:58:49
There's just post-modern literary critique which is absurdly useful in deconstructing intention and meaning, just from discussing the form.

That attidute ruined my fun of watching what I thought was cheap, non artistic, equal to pocket editions beach reading entertainment.
Did you know that Leone's spaggheti films are influenced by Goya and that his heroes are not of the serious, silent type that likes action to empty words, but a mere necessity of the fewest scenario lines possible because  of the language barrier?
That analysis has killed me... >:(

"The third man" did something unconventional - the whole soundtrack was played on a single zither, by Anton Karas; it matches the atmosphere perfectly... You could do something like that.

Oh I loved the music in the Third Man. It's my all-time favorite movie as well :).

Quote from: ildu on Sun 12/02/2006 13:33:51
And you still haven't offered any solid points. None of this X-Files alien bullshit is solid. If you can come up with a decent argument on this matter, I promise I'll vote you for best debater in next years FOREGO's. Seriously, it really sounds like you're substituting your teachers opinions as your own.

Threatening is the only persuasive argument.
I'm not very intimidating, so you don't have to worry.

The proof:
I googled "Film Noir" and it came up with this http://www.filmsite.org/filmnoir.html
[Classic film noir developed during and after World War II, taking advantage of the post-war ambience of anxiety, pessimism, and suspicion.]
The argument:
So the audiance was afraid, depressed and lacked trust. The film makers don't use a suburbian family to describe that feeling, but use a dark city instead. The (anti)hero is a depressed, lower class, white male. He can't trust anybody, he has a low set of morals and is a criminal or has connections in the underworld. Not a family guy, in fact the family is not present in the noir movies. The world without family values.


HELM: Let make it very clear that I do NOT see film noir as message to spread racism. This must be the bandwagon propaganda. Racism would be if the hero shows he is superior towards the ethnic minorities. However, the hero, although white male, is fully intergrated in the dark world. And he is not happy with that.
The noir film shows minorities as weird and as people with lower morals.
Subconscious or not is irrelevant, the message stayed the same.

Quote from: Helm on Sun 12/02/2006 13:58:49
Furthermore, you seem to be avoiding all the pertinent arguments made against your case by snarky, pete or eric or whomever. Do you read what people tell you, try to make sense of them and approach the probability of them being more grounded than yours, or do you just read them and react to them, trying in any way to prove your're 'right'? Nobody's 'right' when they critique art, but some positions can be accepted more easily than others. I for one, having watched a lot of film noir but having no bias either for or against it, cannot say honestly that there's anything to accept in your position as you've presented it so far.
Furthermore you are rudely disservicing the people you're discussing with, by quoting sometimes very thorough positions, with a lot of thought put behind them, and then replying by an unrelated one-liner or another. You're being reactionary. If in the bottom line, you're not prepared to accept that there's a chance of you being wrong about this, then you should not be discussing it.

That is untrue. I think I have written the most in this debate. Besides, I prefer short text, and put just as much effort in them as long text. And as if an argument is not vallid if it's under 200 words.
As for the "arguments" given. I have given agruments as well Ã, examples. Most only tried to find a loophole in my arguments, or ask a question that I already explaned. So I find it quite odd that you point this out towards me.
And what can I say about those one hit wonders like

Quote from: Adamski on Sat 11/02/2006 22:46:56
There is no argument here, you're talking out of your anus. It requires no more effort than that.

Congratulations! I can't find a counter argument for this, except something that starts with "your mother..."
Yup.

What this discussion lacks is people who write down their opinion. Like "Nah Jet, you're way off. The croocks in film noir represent the trees and the vines in a jungle."
But I mostly see people disagreeing, and askink me why they disagree with me. Very odd.

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 10:13:22

Quote from: Snarky on Sun 12/02/2006 01:57:12
I did not say that. You need to read more closely.
When critics and academics talk about film noir (without explicitly qualifying or extending the term), they mean a set of movies made between the late thirties and the late fifties or early sixties. This is the classic film noir. Everything made in a similar vein since then is neo-noir or post-noir. The difference is that film noir had become a recognized genre with its own name and easy-to-spot style. The later movies were therefore often consciously mimicking the classic films noir.
Blade Runner isn't even a mainstream neo-noir film. It is also a science fiction movie. That makes it tech-noir, or future noir. Tech-noir films have several distinct characteristics that separate them from other noir.
Therefore, Blade Runner is not a good example. It doesn't fall under the strict definition of "film noir," and the type of film it is differs in important respects from what's normally understood by film noir.

It doesn't fall under film noir, yet it is film noir. A contradiction.

I gave a pretty good description of how this "contradiction" works. If you were to claim that the UK lies somewhere in South America, and using the Falkland Islands as evidence, you would get a similar answer.

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QuoteThis example is only evidence if you accept that The X-Files is noir. Since in a later post you argue that The X-Files is a noir show because of its xenophobia, this is a circular argument.

Your culture is part of your identity. Loss of ones culture is loss of identity.

Did you not understand what I wrote?

Did you understand what I wrote, because what film noir tries to prove is that ethnic minorities are a threat, not people.

Sez you. However, you cannot use The X-Files as evidence that film noir is xenophobic when the only reason you've given why X-Files should be considered noir is that both are xenophobic.

Since you don't seem to have heard of the fallacy known as circular reasoning, let me demonstrate:

- I think parrots are a type of dog, since they can both fly.
- Dogs can't fly.
- Yes they can.
- Prove it. List some dogs that can fly.
- Parrots.

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In American hard-boiled detective fiction, hoodlums are repeately cast as foreigners and marginals, those who must be beaten back because they pose a threat to the white, heterosexual, middle-class values.

It'd be nice if you indicated when you were quoting someone else. See how we're now suddenly talking about "American hard-boiled detective fiction," not film noir? Burns, for all the problems with her argument, is a lot more careful about terminology than you are.

Prejudice and xenophobia is/was widespread (though not universal) in pulp fiction in general, not just in America, and not just in the hard-boiled detective genre. Fu Manchu, Tarzan, Ã, Mike Hammer, ... The list could be made very nearly endless. The question is whether film noir, which aspired to be something much more than genre potboilers, inherited this distrust of minorities.

A good example is Kiss Me Deadly, an adaptation of Mickey Spillane's Mike Hammer story. The film takes a critical view of Hammer, showing him as the sadistic, borderline psychopathic brute most pulp heroes in fact are. In this way, it subverts Spillane's prejudices.

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I guess we finally have your argument stated in proposition form: According to film noir, the evil in the world is ethnic minorities.
That's a pretty strong statement, and one I haven't seen you produce one shred of real evidence for.

This isn't new. I'm not the first one to claim this, sadly. Whitey left the city, leaving behind the scum. In Bladerunner, the upper and middle class left the planet.

Your claim goes well beyond what Burns or Murphet argue. Murphet, in true postmodernist theory fashion, is making all sorts of claims about buried meaning and metaphor, on the somewhat slim basis that noir is French for "black." (No matter that the term only became widespread in the US in the 1970s.) According to what you have said, this prejudice is all explicit in the texts.

Others have already commented on how absurd your claim is. I think Touch of Evil, with its Mexican hero, should be enough to disprove your argument.

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Simply put. Everything in film noir that isn't white, middle class, hetrosexual, male is bad.

In film noir, most of the villains are not minorities, and when minorities do appear, they're sometimes good and sometimes bad. Hence, your claim is thoroughly debunked.

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Don't forget that my teachers and the 80 students they lecture must be crazy too. No, sometimes things are just like as Christy Burns, prof. Verhoeven and I say it is.

Maybe you've partly misunderstood what you've been lectured.

And not to disparage American Studies, but it's a field that is predisposed to certain conclusions. With a clear political bias, a single-minded focus on questions about identity and repression, and methods that allow a nearly kabbalistic exegesis and deconstruction of any given text, you see what you want to see. And because of the publish-or-perish nature of academia, the field generates "X expresses the repression of minorities"-explanations regularly and indiscriminately.

This is not to say that there's no merit to some of these theories (if you had started out talking about the depiction of women in film noir, this thread wouldn't be five pages long right now), just that the mere existence of a theory isn't nearly enough to conclude its correctness.

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 10:37:05
I could say that the butler who doesn't think much of the main character in sunset boulevoir is german, therefore the bad guy. (spot the bad guy)

Erich von Stroheim, who played and essentially was the butler Max, was actually an Austrian Jew, not German. Given how closely the film tracks reality (with most actors playing a version of themselves), and the makeup of silent-era Hollywood, it seems safe to assume that the same is true of the character.

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However, his german blood is unimpotant in the movie. (He's 99% American)
Yet it does explain why he acts in an "un-american" way (from powerfull director to lapdog). (Shag a german and women will rule the world, therefore destroy the family structure I.E. family values. Keep things American, die like a man, don't live like a lapdog)

Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what Billy Wilder, also an Austrian Jew, meant to express.

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 10:13:22
Where was I, ah yes, 2:45 am.

Quote from: MrColossal on Sun 12/02/2006 01:29:21

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 01:25:09

Quote from: MrColossal on Sun 12/02/2006 00:36:49

Quote from: jet on Sat 11/02/2006 23:06:35
I came to the conclusion first, then I read the article.

As he already said, he believed it was an orange already.

And sometimes things are just as they appear.

Exactly! Somtimes an alien is just an alien, sometimes a movie dealing with a dark gritty storyline has nothing to do with secret feelings towards black people learning to read, therefore not all film noir can be generalized! We agree finally.

I salute thee.

*jet, gives Eric a firm handshake

QuoteSimply put. Everything in film noir that isn't white, middle class, hetrosexual, male is bad.

Everything? I thought sometimes things are just as they appear? From your response to my agreeing with you I'd say that you agreed with me, so why are you back to making generalizations?

Because it's "simply put."

Quote from: Snarky on Sun 12/02/2006 01:57:12
It doesn't fall under the strict definition of "film noir," and the type of film it is differs in important respects from what's normally understood by film noir.

Film noir is a genre a strick definition genre? More like loose theme of a dark outlived place, no hope, a crime, a villian.


I'll ignore the dog bit. If it had a point then you wouldn't srew it up with retorical questions.

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In American hard-boiled detective fiction, hoodlums are repeately cast as foreigners and marginals, those who must be beaten back because they pose a threat to the white, heterosexual, middle-class values.

It'd be nice if you indicated when you were quoting someone else. See how we're now suddenly talking about "American hard-boiled detective fiction," not film noir? Burns, for all the problems with her argument, is a lot more careful about terminology than you are.

I already did. (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=25022.msg313508#msg313508) And you are way to carefull.

So then do you disagree with your initial statement then?

"I hate Noir. It shows the fear for ethnic minorities like blacks, latino's, homo's, jews and in the X-files even aliens is correct. These minorities are here to destroy the family values. To come in contact with their culture will rot your life just like that of the detective."

Since that was a generalization of all film noir.

AH! That's why you disagree?

What I was thinking:
I don't like Noir. It shows the fear for ethnic minorities like blacks, latino's, homo's, jews and in the X-files even aliens is correct.
I see messages like.
"These minorities are here to destroy the family values."
"To come in contact with their culture will rot away your life just like that of the detective."
"Stay in the suburbs"

Clearly old fashioned.

More than six decades later and still no desrtuction of family values. It seems we have nothing to fear.

---

Sorry about the unclear message.

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 16:31:59
The proof:
I googled "Film Noir" and it came up with this http://www.filmsite.org/filmnoir.html

[Classic film noir developed during and after World War II, taking advantage of the post-war ambience of anxiety, pessimism, and suspicion.]

The argument:
So the audiance was afraid, depressed and lacked trust. The film makers don't use a suburbian family to describe that feeling, but use a dark city instead. The (anti)hero is a depressed, lower class, white male. He can't trust anybody, he has a low set of morals and is a criminal or has connections in the underworld. Not a family guy, in fact the family is not present in the noir movies. The world without family values.

HELM: Let make it very clear that I do NOT see film noir as message to spread racism. This must be the bandwagon propaganda. Racism would be if the hero shows he is superior towards the ethnic minorities. However, the hero, although white male, is fully intergrated in the dark world. And he is not happy with that.
The noir film shows minorities as weird and as people with lower morals.
Subconscious or not is irrelevant, the message stayed the same.

First of all, this doesn't come close to proof. The reference you quote (by the way, an excellent resource) does not mention ethnic or other minorities at all.

No one disputes that noir takes place in a dark, corrupt world. What's missing is the connection from this to a specific indictment of minorities. The closest I've seen is something like: "Well, it takes place in the city, which means the ghetto (though we rarely actually see any ethnic minorities), so it must be against the kind of people who live in the city. In other words minorities and gays."

That's flawed on so many counts. First of all, it's easy to overstate the urban nature of film noir. Many of them take place extensively in suburban or extra-urban settings. In The Long Goodbye, Marlowe follows the trail of evidence to parties in suburban houses, and the final standoff takes place in a house in the middle of nowhere. Touch of Evil is set mostly in the wilderness on the US-Mexico border. In Sunset Blvd., it's the mansions and boulevards on the outskirts of town that most strongly represent corruption, while the young crowd in downtown apartments and cafes stand for hope and vitality.

Secondly, to equate the city with ethnic neighborhoods and ghettos is anachronistic. The "white flight" to the suburbs had barely begun during the period of classic film noir. That was a trend that mostly belongs to the sixties and later. The white city-dwellers in film noir are not code for minorities. They're depictions of a real population that actually existed. It was only later that middle-class white people came to see downtown as an ethnic hell-hole, as depicted in movies of the late sixties, seventies and eighties (most notably Taxi Driver).

Thirdly, in order to come to this conclusion you're employing a tortured chain of reasoning, where many of the steps studiously avoid more natural explanations. For instance, in your quote from that film site, you've elided the actual explanation they give for the paranoia and anxiety of film noir, in order to substitute your own:

Quote from: filmsite.orgFear, mistrust, bleakness and paranoia are readily evident in noir, reflecting the 'chilly' Cold War period when the threat of nuclear annihilation was ever-present. The criminal, violent, misogynistic, hard-boiled, or greedy perspectives of anti-heroes in film noir were a metaphoric symptom of society's evils, with a strong undercurrent of moral conflict.

You aren't reading me right...

You say you don't like noir because it has these messages you see. Then you say sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Therefore sometimes a movie is just a movie and has no underlying message or fear of cultures in it. Sometimes a butler is just a butler.

Do some movies portray a fear of the unknown through racial themes? Sure thing! Does all Noir do this? Impossible.

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 17:58:15

Quote from: Snarky on Sun 12/02/2006 01:57:12
It doesn't fall under the strict definition of "film noir," and the type of film it is differs in important respects from what's normally understood by film noir.

Film noir is a genre a strick definition genre? More like loose theme of a dark outlived place, no hope, a crime, a villian.

At this point you must just be feigning ignorance, since you've already quoted from this site (http://www.filmsite.org/filmnoir.html), which explains it very clearly: "It was a style of black and white American films that first evolved in the 1940s, became prominent in the post-war era, and lasted in a classic "Golden Age" period until about 1960."

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I'll ignore the dog bit. If it had a point then you wouldn't srew it up with retorical questions.

Ignore it as much as you like. It does mean that your X-Files example is useless as evidence, though.

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In American hard-boiled detective fiction, hoodlums are repeately cast as foreigners and marginals, those who must be beaten back because they pose a threat to the white, heterosexual, middle-class values.

It'd be nice if you indicated when you were quoting someone else. See how we're now suddenly talking about "American hard-boiled detective fiction," not film noir? Burns, for all the problems with her argument, is a lot more careful about terminology than you are.

I already did. (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=25022.msg313508#msg313508) And you are way to carefull.

You indicated it before, but not for this particular statement. Sloppy attribution and indifference towards precision; those are not qualities that will serve you well in academia. Though your loyal adherence to whatever your professors say will no doubt earn you brownie points.

Quote from: jet on Sun 12/02/2006 10:13:22

Quote from: Pesty on Sun 12/02/2006 01:31:11
And no, it's not a quote from a movie. I'm just awesome.

VG cats.

Achtung Franz.

HOLY MOTHER of BOB!:o This is the KOOKIEST, thread I have ever SEEN! I ask, politly i might add, for some links and tips on finding the steriotypical music from private eye/film noir movies. Dark movies about a dark time, full of corruption and lies. I wanted to then use that for the music about a game where after an alt-ww2 where 1] no atomic bomb was invented, everyone thought einstien was crazy.2] Babbage in vented the computer 100 YEARS ahead of its time so in ww2 an AI was created.(no more american boys going to war) 3]just after ww2, demons invade earth through a wormhole, seening we were exhauseted and not having a weapon that could defete them, an a-bomb. there is a big war, niether side wins. and so we enter a corrupt world were demons own strip clubs, wizards make deals,and so do polititions. we have robot cars, and its a world that has both magic and technoligy, in some parts more advanced then ours, but its CORRUPT. the place stinks with it. I thought film noir would be the perfect mood for such a place. If ANYONE wants to help me. making backounds. doing music,  making animations even ,pm me. or post here.

but needless i was shocked. i didn't think i would open such a can o' worms, with this thread. it took a week for it to get for posts, and i was going to leave it at that. then i come back to school. (thats my acess to internet, school.) i find this HUGE thread. "JJJ,Jeepers!", to quote on cartoon rabbit, this was almost funney reading all these posts. as soon as I was done,(and I read every one)I started on this post.

But distracting you was sooo  fun!   ;D

Quote from: cp on Mon 13/02/2006 17:42:44
But distracting you was soooÃ,  fun!Ã,  Ã, ;D

erm... who ar u talk to here?

Quote from: lo_res_man on Mon 13/02/2006 19:36:46

Quote from: cp on Mon 13/02/2006 17:42:44
But distracting you was soooÃ,  fun!Ã,  Ã, ;D

erm... who ar you talk to here?

We took your request and changed it's course...

Maybe distracting was not the right word....

Allow to act as jet's spokesman (I talk with him via msn)

"I am going to be logged just this weekend, I wanted to put something in GiP"

So, it's monday... He won't be back for a while!  ;D If you thought he has given up, sorry...

He's cool, but a headlong, eh!  :D

I don't personally see anything of that in noir films...  :-\