Sexuality issues

[Tuomas]

No, this is not an ideal age for sexual contact thread, yet, this is a side kick thread of it. I was wondering, the later one got really really off topic, and finally turned into an argument about religion, and religion brings us to discrimination and rules and cultural views etc.

Now it was only a while ago, that the Finnish government decided to deny the right to get treatment for fertilisation from homosexual couples that are male, whereas two women living together are allowed to seek treatment. This, even though they recieved a lot of pressure from several NGO's and political groups such as ours. I still don't find it right to claim that two women or single women were more competent to taking care of and raising a child.

Now I noticed a bit of an opinion back in the thread about how gay people are sick in the face of God, and true enough, and marriage between two people of the same sex is only allowed in 5 countries, Netherlands, Belgium, Canada, South Africa and Spain, and personally I'm very ashamed of Finland's decision to keep to the rule, that only same-sex unions are possible. I find the rules that the church is setting to be very old fashioned and discriminating, and I'm going to make sure of it, that the government will know it, some day. I would personally take every influence the church has for the state away, but that's off topic again.

I see a lot of people looking at homosexuals like they were lesser beings. We have 2 "gay-clubs" in my town, (another plan for Lapaset ) and even though I see a lot of people joking about going there, when ever I ask them to come with me they say "hell no, those creeps are going to hit on me" or something along with the lines. Even though apparently they're full of single straight women. OR that's what my sister told me. And I won't even ask my roommates. One of them just hung a huge nazi flag on the wall.

Now I'm attending a seminar in Berlin on 11th as some of you know, and it's about minorities, and basically I've agreed to hold a speech on them, on behalf of our own organisation. And I'd love to feed interest in people and at the time also gain experience from people's views, so more likely I would like to hear about your opinions and reasons to them, and your own personal experiences on sexuality issues and learn from them, possibly get some viewpoints to include in my speech, which I still haven't written.

And if you're hesitating, say, you're anti-gay or a nazi(like my roommate there), or you're a homosexual, you could pm me and I'd post it anonymously, but every view would be very important for people to understand each other. And I beg that you don't make a fight out of it so people would not restrain from posting. Own opinions and constructive questions are welcome, as are humorous posts, but let's keep it civilised, ok? Thanks

[Steel Drummer]

So you're saying that most people opposing the gay lifestyle are nazis? :

[Tuomas]

No no, of course not, did I say that? I mentioned my roommate who says he's a nazi and hates every foreign being and gays, and in the end I basically referred to him again.

[ManicMatt]

Tuomas said: "say, you're anti-gay or a naazi"

Note the "OR" in there.

Hey Steel, if sexuality is a choice, that means you could choose to be gay! But it's not a choice for you is it? You couldn't choose to do it because you'd feel ill, which is natural for a heterosexual.

[Meowster]

I agree with how you feel about finland... I'm also ashamed that both England and Ireland still won't allow the same rights to gay people as they will to straight people. It's just so backwards and horrible, and you would think that in this day and age, people would have let go of primitive ideas of the past and would realise there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. It doesn't hurt anybody, so what's the problem?

I've heard some people argue against homosexuality, saying that it causes the spread of AIDS. AIDS spreads between male and females, no matter what their sexuality... as far as I know, it spreads slightly more rapidly among the male gay community because anal sex makes it easier for the virus to spread... right? Something like... the skin and yadda yadda inside the anus is more easily torn/damaged by penetration than the inside of a vagina during sex, so the virus is more easily passed on... correct me if I'm wrong, anybody...

It seems really horrible to me that this is a reason for people to discriminate against gay people...

I remember speaking to a girl I worked with once. She was 17 years old, had a 3 year old daughter and was a single mother. I mentioned how saddened I was that gay people weren't allowed to adopt children, and I remember her screwing up her face and saying, "Ugh! Of course they shouldn't! It's so wrong... two men bringing up a child. It shouldn't be allowed. Disgusting. It's just NOT RIGHT."

And there she was, bringing up her 3 year old daughter on her own in a council estate, working part time so she could afford babysitters and booze for when she went out on the weekends (I'm not assuming this by the way... I knew her quite well, it was a known fact).

I find that most people who discriminate against gays are either very old, religious people, or very poorly educated people. Anybody with an ounce of sense realises that sexuality is a complete non-issue.

I live in Brighton, the gay capital of England, and I know so many gay men and women.... they're absolutely no different from hetero men and women. There's no difference. Nothing at all, except what they do in their own time together, the type of people they fancy. I suppose anti-gay people must have some idea that they're terrible, disgusting people... I have no other idea as to why people would discriminate against a group of people who are absolutely no different to heterosexual people such as myself.


EDIT: Oh god Steel Drummer PLEASE go away, I really want an intelligent discussion to go on in here.

[Steel Drummer]

I agree that gays should have the same rights as everyone else, BUT if it's equality they want, then they shouldn't be getting special government benefits in certain countries (I'm not sure about where you guys are from, but I think in North America, they're getting sponsored by Ford and other big car companies). 

[/quote author=ManicMatt]
Hey Steel, if sexuality is a choice, that means you could choose to be gay! But it's not a choice for you is it? You couldn't choose to do it because you'd feel ill, which is natural for a heterosexual.
[/quote]
You make it sound like you would. 

[Nikolas]

The point about raising kids as a male, or as a male couple:

GRRRRRRRRR! I spend around 20 hours in home alone with my two sons. Fuck anyone who says that males can't do the same job as women can (raise a child right, that is). Let me not derail a lot but the fact that the mother will always have the uper hand in any divorce, regarding children, is also discremenating enough for me...   :'( but mainly  !

I, personally, don't mind gay friends I have. I have never been to a gay bar, but I have no idea of any around here, I don't go to bars at all (because of the kids) and... that's it. I don't mind hanging out with gay friends, and if they started making out in front of me, I would go "go get a room", as I would say the same thing to a heterosexual couple as well (and have already!)

But I guess, that it stands true that females tend to be better mothers than males. It just seems to make sense...

The adoption of a child is an enormous issue, incredibly difficult to discuss really. I mean, when you have 2 women, one of them can be THE mother. Thus the bond is there! Since a male couple has around 0% chances of claiming the child of one of the two, adoption is the ONLY choice. And then, the blood bond is lost...

Yufster: At least England has the "partner" term, for anyone who lives with you, including your lover, or my gay boyfriend... Other places don't even have that!

I would see the point of claiming something about AIDS and gay people, in the 80s, but now, this is rubbish! Not to mention that the goverment is wasting tons of money on the THINK! campaing, about heterosexual relationships and afrodisiac diseases... nothing about gay males etc...

[Meowster]

I agree that gays should have the same rights as everyone else, BUT if it's equality they want, then they shouldn't be getting special government benefits in certain countries (I'm not sure about where you guys are from, but I think in North America, they're getting sponsored by Ford and other big car companies). 

You agree they should have the same rights as everyone else? I'm going to be honest... given your past comments, that surprises but pleases me. Do you think they should be given the right to adopt children and marry?

Also, can you elaborate on this whole special government benefits thing? I'm not really sure what you mean by it... I mean, it automatically makes me think of the Gay Parade that Brighton has... which is sponsered by several big companies but is absolutely BRILLIANT... everybody has such an amazing time, gay or not gay... it's just a massive colourful loud party in Brighton that everybody enjoys. So, I wouldn't be against that... but I'm still not sure what you mean exactly. Soo... elaborate?

I'm not sure how individual gay people would get individual sponsership from companies...

[Steel Drummer]

You agree they should have the same rights as everyone else? I'm going to be honest... given your past comments, that surprises but pleases me. Do you think they should be given the right to adopt children and marry?

Also, can you elaborate on this whole special government benefits thing? I'm not really sure what you mean by it... I mean, it automatically makes me think of the Gay Parade that Brighton has... which is sponsered by several big companies but is absolutely BRILLIANT... everybody has such an amazing time, gay or not gay... it's just a massive colourful loud party in Brighton that everybody enjoys. So, I wouldn't be against that... but I'm still not sure what you mean exactly. Soo... elaborate? 

Same rights: Well, they are people. :/
A couple adopting a kid... I dunno. That would be kind of weird if the kid had to bring his parents to school or something:
Teacher: Hello Tommy, who are these people?
Tommy: This is my daddy, and my daddy.
Teacher: That's...emm... nice.

Gay marriage: I don't think so. I'm not against two men doing whatever they want, but getting physical together is a big no-no in my book.

Government benefits: Like I said, I'm not sure about where you're from, but in North America, big companies are giving millions of dollars to homosexual groups. Companies like Ford, Wal-Mart, etc. If they give so much to that minority group, why not give millions to Jews, or blacks, or Muslims? Do you understand what I mean, now Meowster?

By the way, I checked your profile (Meowster) and it says you're a male. Are you gay, because I remember you saying you had a boyfriend...

[Becky]

What consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their own home is no concern of the government or anyone else.  I have no issue with homosexuality at all, nor bisexuality or polygamy (though I myself am heterosexual and monagamous).  As long as they are consentual adult relationships, then people should be able to love and marry (in a legal sense, of course non-government-sponsored religious groups can refuse to marry whoever they want, as much as it annoys me) whoever they see fit.

Governments should encourage adoption and child fostering, and making it easier for both homosexual and heterosexual unions to legally adopt (as well as single parents) is desirable.

Gay marriage: I don't think so. I'm not against two men doing whatever they want, but getting physical together is a big no-no in my book.

Then you are against two men doing whatever they want.

[ManicMatt]

You make it sound like you would. 

Am I supposed to feel insulted? I am not! I couldn't care less if you thought I was gay or not.

Let me put it another way (Why I bother I don't know..), you find women attractive, yes? Can you explain why you find women attractive? Did you choose to like them?

[Steel Drummer]

Then you are against two men doing whatever they want.

I mean outside of sex. 

Am I supposed to feel insulted? I am not! I couldn't care less if you thought I was gay or not.

Let me put it another way (Why I bother I don't know..), you find women attractive, yes? Can you explain why you find women attractive? Did you choose to like them?

It was a joke. Have you ever heard of those? I wasn't trying to stir up an argument, okay?

[Tuomas]

Becky: Exactly!

Oh, and

Government benefits: Like I said, I'm not sure about where you're from, but in North America, big companies are giving millions of dollars to homosexual groups. Companies like Ford, Wal-Mart, etc. If they give so much to that minority group, why not give millions to Jews, or blacks, or Muslims? Do you understand what I mean, now Meowster?

I think what she means is, we'd all like to know, if you happen to, that what are these benefits like. Is it so, that a registered homosexual gets a certain amount of money on their account per month, or is it support to organisations or is it money put to mediawork and places where they can better their imago?

Am I supposed to feel insulted? I am not!

yeah, there's no need to feel insulted, we're not here to fight, remember

Oh, and Steel Drummer. I see that you would not want to have sex with a man, but we do see men have say, anal sex with women too, I don't really see a difference there, unless you mean it's the ideology in it that shouldn't be the way it is. Remeber that no-one's attacking you, I'd just like to hear.

[MrColossal]

I would like to read a source for your billions of dollars for gay people claim, please?

[Dan_N]

Yes, it's basically none of the government's business what sexuality a person has, so it, as an institution should have no problem with anyone's sexuality. If sexual intercourse is carried out between two (or more) consenting people, then there's no real problem here... The problem is when one person does not offer his/her consent, or is taken advantage of (i.e. paedophilia).

Unfortunately, the government, the church, and a substantial bit of the people don't give a rat's arse about anything except tradition, so heterosexuality is enforced, either subtily (did you notice that there's always mum and dad in the detergent comercial, not mum and mum or dad and dad?) or blatantly.

People will never get along, because hate is incrusted in the nature of Humanity, because Humanity allowed hate to set up shop there in the first place...

[Becky]

I mean outside of sex.

What -specifically- is wrong with two men or two women having sex?  And if you say "it's icky", you lose.

[Meowster]

You agree they should have the same rights as everyone else? I'm going to be honest... given your past comments, that surprises but pleases me. Do you think they should be given the right to adopt children and marry?

Also, can you elaborate on this whole special government benefits thing? I'm not really sure what you mean by it... I mean, it automatically makes me think of the Gay Parade that Brighton has... which is sponsered by several big companies but is absolutely BRILLIANT... everybody has such an amazing time, gay or not gay... it's just a massive colourful loud party in Brighton that everybody enjoys. So, I wouldn't be against that... but I'm still not sure what you mean exactly. Soo... elaborate? 

Same rights: Well, they are people. :/
A couple adopting a kid... I dunno. That would be kind of weird if the kid had to bring his parents to school or something:
Teacher: Hello Tommy, who are these people?
Tommy: This is my daddy, and my daddy.
Teacher: That's...emm... nice.

Gay marriage: I don't think so. I'm not against two men doing whatever they want, but getting physical together is a big no-no in my book.

Government benefits: Like I said, I'm not sure about where you're from, but in North America, big companies are giving millions of dollars to homosexual groups. Companies like Ford, Wal-Mart, etc. If they give so much to that minority group, why not give millions to Jews, or blacks, or Muslims? Do you understand what I mean, now Meowster?

By the way, I checked your profile (Meowster) and it says you're a male. Are you gay, because I remember you saying you had a boyfriend...

No, sorry, I'm female and straight... I set it as male years ago, don't know why...

Companies DO give millions of dollars to "minority groups" such as Jews, black people, and muslims. There are plenty of groups out there that promote these groups... I mean, not so long ago, people were discriminating against black people in much the same way as people now discriminate against gay people. There is nothing different in giving money to gay groups. Or do you disagree?

As for it being awkward to introduce your gay parents to your friends... okay, you believe that good christians should not be judgemental, yes? In that case, it should not matter if a child introduces his parents to you, and they're gay, because you will NOT judge that child based on what his or her parents do. If anybody else does, say for instance, non-christians that are anti-gay anyway... then we should not discriminate against the child or the parents because of the ignorant actions of other people. Do you understand what I'm saying? Do you agree or disagree?

It's perfectly reasonable to believe, no matter what your views, that two men or two women can raise a child together as well as a man or a woman. I mean, look at what a bad job some men and women do of it nowadays... it's not hard to better them is it

Also, if you don't believe that gay people should be able to marry/have sex, then you really don't believe that they have the same rights. Please, I know how you feel but you must accept that you really don't believe they should have the same rights. But I ask you to think about this:

If a man wants to marry another man under the blessing of God, who are you to decide if that is right or wrong, or if that's what god wants? You may THINK it isn't what god wants, but surely they should be allowed to nonetheless? And if it ISN'T what god wants, then he won't validate their marriage or accept it himself... but what business is it of ours to choose what GOD wants?

[Tuomas]

Oh, and MrColossal and Dan, we'd like to hear about your views and experiences too, and not get this stuck on an argument

And I think, what we want to know here, SteelDrummer, is not "what makes you think you can decide for them" but what makes you think it's not ok, because I know my mother and my brother are a bit anti-gay, and I do understand their views. I'd like to hear wherer they all come from.

[Steel Drummer]

I think what she means is, we'd all like to know, if you happen to, that what are these benefits like. Is it so, that a registered homosexual gets a certain amount of money on their account per month, or is it support to organisations or is it money put to mediawork and places where they can better their imago?

Well, I'm not 100% positive if they actually are getting sponsored by big corporations, since it hasn't really been publicized too much, but I'll try to look around for articles that talk about that. If I'm correct, companies like Ford spend billions of dollars, funding homo groups, putting ads in homo magazines, and giving money to that minority group. IMO, if gays want to be treated equally, then they should be getting just as much 'funding' as regular people, and not receive special treatment. 

Companies DO give millions of dollars to "minority groups" such as Jews, black people, and muslims. There are plenty of groups out there that promote these groups... I mean, not so long ago, people were discriminating against black people in much the same way as people now discriminate against gay people. There is nothing different in giving money to gay groups. Or do you disagree?

Blacks and Jews are actual races of people- gays aren't. They make up an even smaller population than either group. 

What -specifically- is wrong with two men or two women having sex?  And if you say "it's icky", you lose.

You don't think it's wrong, but I do, because the Bible says so. God intended sex and marriage to be between one man and one woman. Heck, if he didn't, then why weren't Adam and Eve two men? 

Oh, and MrColossal and Dan, we'd like to hear about your views and experiences too, and not get this stuck on an argument.

You can add Becky to that list as well.

[ManicMatt]

Hey, lets say there is a god, and the bible speaks his mind on many subjects. Can't God change his mind? Or is he timeless? I'm just curious... and if he is timeless, how do we know the book has always said the same thing? *Matt's head explodes*

Adam and Eve would have to be into each other to make the species start. Perhaps homosexuality infact lowers the population rate, no? A balance, if you will.

[Dan_N]

Oh, and MrColossal and Dan, we'd like to hear about your views and experiences too, and not get this stuck on an argument

Hokay...

Well, I was raised by a Christian mother, and "urged" by my father to go on dates with girls. Needless to say, I didn't listen to either of them, and I'm now an atheist and I've had four girlfriends. But I disgress, I seriously have no problem with homosexuality, poligamy, monogamy, incest, and whatnot, (even though I'm heterosexual myself) as long as it's being carried out between two responsible and consenting people, be they teenagers or adults. I only have a problem with paedophilia, and zoophilia, because both presume that at least one of the persons involved have no ideea what's that sensation creeping up their passages... Necrophilia is half-fine, it's a bit creepy, though, and I don't feel confortable knowing that my dead grandmother is being penised, IMHO...

If two men, or two women, or four men and six women want a child, let them have it, let them have fourteen of 'em if they like, it's really no matter for anyone to intervene here...

[Captain Lexington]

What -specifically- is wrong with two men or two women having sex?  And if you say "it's icky", you lose.

You don't think it's wrong, but I do, because the Bible says so. God intended sex and marriage to be between one man and one woman. Heck, if he didn't, then why weren't Adam and Eve two men? 

Because two men can't reproduce!

[Becky]

I did post my views and experiences:

What consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their own home is no concern of the government or anyone else.  I have no issue with homosexuality at all, nor bisexuality or polygamy (though I myself am heterosexual and monagamous).  As long as they are consentual adult relationships, then people should be able to love and marry (in a legal sense, of course non-government-sponsored religious groups can refuse to marry whoever they want, as much as it annoys me) whoever they see fit.

Governments should encourage adoption and child fostering, and making it easier for both homosexual and heterosexual unions to legally adopt (as well as single parents) is desirable.

As your anti-homosexuality stance is based around religious principles, then I cannot really convert you from that.  However, you may wish to consider what impact religion should have on government policy, and whether the religious views of one population sector should be imposed upon everyone through law.

[Meowster]

Blacks and Jews are actual races of people- gays aren't. They make up an even smaller population than either group. 

OH MY GOD.

Blacks and jews are not races of people, Steel Drummer!


I also agree wholeheartedly with what Becky just said very well indeed:

what impact religion should have on government policy, and whether the religious views of one population sector should be imposed upon everyone through law.

[Helm]

Yes, nice, keep feeding the troll. The troll will tell you what his dad thinks. Discuss with a bigotted idiot by proxy, it's great.


I have no problem with gays getting married at all. What else would you like to know, Tuomas?

[Raggit]

Oh dear.  It's happening all over again.

I remember one time a long time ago when I was basically saying all the same things Steel Drummer is saying now when somebody made a thread about a Leisure Suit Larry style game with homosexuality as the main theme.

I was saying terrible things that I regret now.  

[Helm]

Lemme guess. People trying to be your dad on the internet at the time didn't help, instead they fuelled your fire of ignorance.

[MrColossal]

Apologies.

It's all fear isn't it? People are afraid of sex [speaking as a USAer] even though the west is looked upon as sexually liberated. People are still deathly afraid of sex. Not really personal sex but what other people are doing. My saying that isn't anything new obviously but I find it funny when people consider themselves as sexually liberated but are still afraid of gay people.

Personally I am heartened by the fact that societies change and now it's not really a big deal with a black dude wanting to marry a white chick, at least in non-retarded places like the american south. Eventually people will be fine with gay marriage and we'll move on to hating genetically modified people marrying normal people, or aliens marrying our daughters!

The hindsight people fail to have is amazing. Look back at how stupid Americans were when it came to segregation and then look at the present at what you're doing to another class or people and realize "Oh yea, I might really regret this later..."

[Tuomas]

You can add Becky to that list as well.

And everyone else who posted

Necrophilia is half-fine, it's a bit creepy, though, and I don't feel confortable knowing that my dead grandmother is being penised, IMHO...

Because two men can't reproduce!

There's actually a reasonable point here. If someone should see the purpose of intercourse to be reproduction and not pleasure, I could personally accept that as an argument to why it's not meant for two men or two women to have sex with each other.

Yes, nice, keep feeding the troll. The troll will tell you what his dad thinks. Discuss with a bigotted idiot by proxy, it's great.

I have no problem with gays getting married at all. What else would you like to know, Tuomas?

I would like to know why you posted this with such an attitude while I hoped we could keep this polite and really benefit from all this, everyone of us.

[The Ivy]

I just want to add that marriage itself isn't exactly a good platform for equality. Religions often dictate the kinds of work that men and women are expected to do within a marriage, but a good deal of legal and economic policies place women at a disadvantage. A few examples:

Some government "tuition assistance" programs in the US extend their benefits only to the "primary earner" of a household, effectively eliminating married women from the list of people who are eligible.

Government taxation in both the US and Canada often treats couples' income as "pooled" and taxes it as such; in this case women are actually paying more tax than they would be were they considered "single."

When childcare benefits are cut, the policies often say (explicitly and implicitly) that mothers or female relatives should pick up the slack.

Ironically enough, along with the push for equal marriage for gays and lesbians, there's also a movement to "de-legalize" the status of marriage. That is, let it be a religious institution, and a nominal one, but don't let it change the way the government chooses to view or tax you. Gay marriage introduces the possibility that maybe there doesn't have to be a "his" and "her" work dichotomy in the household...and the idea that two people might be entirely equal in their marriage is certainly a new one for the institution.

[LimpingFish]

I have a problem with gay people.

I demand they overtly mince down the street so I can see them coming!

MORE MINCING! DAMNIT!

[Helm]

Yes, nice, keep feeding the troll. The troll will tell you what his dad thinks. Discuss with a bigotted idiot by proxy, it's great.

I have no problem with gays getting married at all. What else would you like to know, Tuomas?

I would like to know why you posted this with such an attitude while I hoped we could keep this polite and really benefit from all this, everyone of us.

I did this in hopes of helping the thread keep on the much more interesting original topic than having it become 'discuss with Yodaman's dad' again.

[Captain Lexington]

Because two men can't reproduce!

There's actually a reasonable point here. If someone should see the purpose of intercourse to be reproduction and not pleasure, I could personally accept that as an argument to why it's not meant for two men or two women to have sex with each other.

Well, you did take that out of context. I said that is why the Story of Adam and Eve isn't the Story of Adam and Evan. I certainly wouldn't believe the story 'In the beginning God created to men and they gave birth to all humanity. And then they decided women should give birth in the future.'

I have no problem with homosexuality myself.

[Raggit]

Yes, nice, keep feeding the troll. The troll will tell you what his dad thinks. Discuss with a bigotted idiot by proxy, it's great.

I have no problem with gays getting married at all. What else would you like to know, Tuomas?

I would like to know why you posted this with such an attitude while I hoped we could keep this polite and really benefit from all this, everyone of us.

I did this in hopes of helping the thread keep on the much more interesting original topic than having it become 'discuss with Yodaman's dad' again.

I don't get the 'yodaman's dad' references going around...   

On topic:  I really don't get the whole gay controversy thing.  I couldn't possibly care less about whether or not somebody is attracted to males or females, what they do behind close doors, or if they wanna get married.  Aren't there more important issues for our governments to deal with?

[Becky]

Gay marriage introduces the possibility that maybe there doesn't have to be a "his" and "her" work dichotomy in the household...and the idea that two people might be entirely equal in their marriage is certainly a new one for the institution.

The Ivy, I think that's a very interesting point you've raised, and a very important one I feel.  I'm not sure the situation here is quite the same, or at least not necessarily to the same extent, but it is something I shall have to take a look into.  If the legalisation of same-sex marriages would help create truly equal marriages across the whole of society, then that is surely a good thing.

[Tuomas]

Yeah but still, I see what you mean, but the same phrase could be drawn to further meanings.

And helm, I see, I'm just trying to keep it so that Steel Drummer wouldn't feel irritated to share his views too.

And Fish: ...Eh?

Gay marriage introduces the possibility that maybe there doesn't have to be a "his" and "her" work dichotomy in the household...and the idea that two people might be entirely equal in their marriage is certainly a new one for the institution.

The Ivy, I think that's a very interesting point you've raised, and a very important one I feel.  I'm not sure the situation here is quite the same, or at least not necessarily to the same extent, but it is something I shall have to take a look into.  If the legalisation of same-sex marriages would help create truly equal marriages across the whole of society, then that is surely a good thing.

I didn't know of such, in Finland when two people are married or living together, they're considered individuals, which means the main principles in the law are that both still have separate loans, taxes, wages, etc. Then of course you too have the marriage settlement, but I suppose that goes only when/if breaking up.

[Steel Drummer]

Blacks and jews are not races of people, Steel Drummer!

What are they, then- religions? :

If they're not races, why do they call it 'racism' when people player hate Jews? 

Yes, nice, keep feeding the troll. The troll will tell you what his dad thinks. Discuss with a bigotted idiot by proxy, it's great.

If by 'dad', then you mean God/Jesus Christ, then yes- that's what I'm doing. I'm not bigoted because I think that gay marriage shouldn't be legal.

Am I bigoted by saying abortion is wrong? Because I believe that it is. If you think I'm bigoted for saying that's wrong, then you must be bigoted against unborn children. 

One of Tuomas' previous posts

I agree. If you still need to vent, Helm, then go back to the other thread and post your head off there.   

Ironically enough, along with the push for equal marriage for gays and lesbians, there's also a movement to "de-legalize" the status of marriage. That is, let it be a religious institution, and a nominal one, but don't let it change the way the government chooses to view or tax you. Gay marriage introduces the possibility that maybe there doesn't have to be a "his" and "her" work dichotomy in the household...and the idea that two people might be entirely equal in their marriage is certainly a new one for the institution. 

I'd also add that, with two men or two women raising a child, the kid may get a sexist slant on things because of both parents, or in some cases, may not even grow up with good role models (just imagine if you were a girl growing up in a house with two men raising you). 

I did this in hopes of helping the thread keep on the much more interesting original topic than having it become 'discuss with Yodaman's dad' again.

I am the dad.

I don't get the 'yodaman's dad' references going around...   

Neither do I. If I'm 900 years old, my dad would sure as heck be dead by now...

No really, what makes you think I'm getting stuff from my dad?

[The Ivy]

Ironically enough, along with the push for equal marriage for gays and lesbians, there's also a movement to "de-legalize" the status of marriage. That is, let it be a religious institution, and a nominal one, but don't let it change the way the government chooses to view or tax you. Gay marriage introduces the possibility that maybe there doesn't have to be a "his" and "her" work dichotomy in the household...and the idea that two people might be entirely equal in their marriage is certainly a new one for the institution. 

I'd also add that, with two men or two women raising a child, the kid may get a sexist slant on things because of both parents, or in some cases, may not even grow up with good role models (just imagine if you were a girl growing up in a house with two men raising you). 

I dunno, I've got some single parent friends whose kids are just fine.

[LimpingFish]

And Fish: ...Eh?

Nevermind.

The gay marriage debate was in the news here again recently. Some lesbians lost the right to have their marriage recognized by the state.

I believe, in Ireland's case anyway, that the leading force behind the disregard for the rights of gay people is the church.

I can't see any other logical reason why gay people should be treated this way by a democratic government.

[Sam.]

just to add some facts, Tuomas, Gay People in Britain CAN get married, outside a church obviously, but married nontheless.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4497348.stm

[MrColossal]

The Ivy, that also adds to it. People don't actually think about their arguement. They just say "2 men can't raise a baby! the baby needs a woman!" but no one forces a single father to get married to a woman so the baby "grows up ok". I wish they'd try to pass that bill so it could be hammered back faster than.. jello shots at an after prom party?

[Tuomas]

Blacks and jews are not races of people, Steel Drummer!

What are they, then- religions? :

Well, yeah, jews are jews due to their religion, blacks on the other hand one might consider a race different from us white anglosaxian protestants WASP! or those.

just to add some facts, Tuomas, Gay People in Britain CAN get married, outside a church obviously, but married nontheless.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4497348.stm

Thanks Zoot. And yeah, I should have known, they can too in Finland. (Don't know where I mentioned this, but still) But as it is, most people a marriage isn't the same if it's not church wedding or a religious one. Think of two men who believe in God but can't get married, now that would suck.


And to two men raising a child, I've read/heard of studies that point out that a present mother isn't vital for an infant no more than a father. Take this one made in the Jyväskylä University of Applied Sciences in Finland, where the researcher interviewed healthcare professionals about "two mother and two fathers", and came up with positive attitude in general. True enough, it might seem weird to the kid's friends, but if it was legitimate, it would prolly be more common and then not such a taboo after all.

[Sam.]

Well in that case, its a matter for the church, and since the church (in general) are bad at mind changing, im guessing it will never happen.

[Mr Flibble]

There's a guy called Peter Singer who reckons that beastiality is gonna be the next big taboo to become acceptable. He does raise a good point when he says that homosexuality was once treated in the same way as zoophilia. Not that I'm comparing the two. Obviously animals can't provide any sort of meaningful relationship unless they have abstract thought, so in that respect it'll never catch on.

I think that human sexuality isn't black and white, but a gentle myriad of soothing greys. And then you have people who'll get turned on by sex itself regardless of the people involved.

Personally, I honestly don't care. If you want to have sex with your toaster, feel free if it makes you happy. If you love a man, or a woman, or maybe even your dog :p , then go have fun with that. Heterosexual relationships mean a LOT more to people than just reproducing, so why should there be anything wrong with relationships with no biological outcome?

[Tuomas]

If you love a man, or a woman, or maybe even your dog :p , then go have fun with that.

You reckon the dog wouldn't mind?

[Dan_N]

If you love a man, or a woman, or maybe even your dog :p , then go have fun with that.

You reckon the dog wouldn't mind?

The dog really has no choice, does it...

[EagerMind]

I didn't know of such, in Finland when two people are married or living together, they're considered individuals, which means the main principles in the law are that both still have separate loans, taxes, wages, etc. Then of course you too have the marriage settlement, but I suppose that goes only when/if breaking up.

It sounds like what Ivy is talking about is something along the lines of what is known here in the US as the "marriage penalty" when in comes to paying our federal income taxes. Basically, married couples generally file their taxes together as a single family. In some cases - specifically, I think it's when one person in the family generates most of the income - the family will pay more taxes than if they filed separately as individuals.

But she raises a good point that many of the benefits of our society - retirement benefits, health care, estate inheritance, others that she mentioned, and I'm sure more that we haven't thought of - are based on the notion of a "traditional family" and as a result are intrinsically discriminatory. As just one example, health care in the US is usually provided by one's employer, and covers not only the employee but his/her entire family. As a result, it becomes quite important (and very politically charged) in how we legally define a "family." Similarly, a married person with a working spouse might be able to obtain a larger loan than a gay person living with a working partner since the recognized "family" will include a larger pool of assets.

Of course, a common tape-and-bubblegum solution is this idea of "civil unions," which seem to provide all the benefits of marriage without calling it marriage.

Tuomas, I also thought this National Geographic article discussing homosexual behavior in animals and its implications for human sexuality might be an interesting and informative resource for your speech (and this discussion in general). I think it's a very powerful argument against the "homosexuality isn't natural/right" defense.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

[The Ivy]

Yes, the marriage penalty is one very good example of discrimination being written into a policy. Heh, don't get me started on healthcare. Millions (around 40 million, last time I checked) of low wage individuals can't even get coverage, never mind their families. Finland's system sounds like it would make "family" much less of a political battlefield. Sounds like a better solution to me.

[Tuomas]

Well yeah, we do get free healthcare paid by taxes and provided by state, so there goes the need for marriage in these cases, but let's not go there.

The article is very interesting, though I did know if such behaviour on animals too. But it's always good to know more, and I believe there's something here for all of us.

[deadsuperhero]

(Cracks fingers)
Right-o. Time to share my views.
I have nothing against gays. I used to oppose gay marriage, but the more I think about it, the more I realise we should allow it. Sure, its different. But giving women any rights whatsoever was frowned upon once.
And to those of you who oppose it, chill.
They're not telling you to gay-marry someone. Besides, homosexuality isn't some contagious disease.
What's really sad is how transgendered folk are treated...

[Blackthorne]

The only thing I have against gays is their fabulous ability to dance.

'Cause everyone knows the Gay agenda is REALLY to spread fabulous dance.


Bt

[Tartalo]

It's almost impossible to talk about penalized sexual life without getting into Religion, but I'll try.

When Gay marriage was discussed in the Spanish parliament, the conservatives brought an expert to talk against it. This psychiatrist that claimed to "cure" Gays  vomited a bunch of retarded and disordered ideas (Edited: these ideas) and not only gave the Government no other choice but legalizing Gay marriage, he also put his professional career in danger.

Transgender is considered as a disorder, the person is suffering inside his/her own body, not only because of social misunderstanding. In Spain, public health will practice gender change operations if the psychiatrist recommends so. Anyway from my ignorance I imagine these people would still suffer even if irrational social pressure dissipated.

[Babar]

It's weird. "Marriage" is something set up by religion. I don't know why it was religion as opposed to anything else, but it was religion. Now generally, the mostly dominant religions are against homosexuality. Why would a homosexual couple want to get married? Because marriage now has been taken over by everything else. Separation of Church and State....suuuuure.

(Outside religion) Why should there be the concept of marriage(as the semi/permenant union of two individuals of the opposite sex) at all? Why not a union between two of either sex? Why not  a union between somebody and their dog? Why not a union between 3 people, or 4 people or 10 people? Why not forget the concept of any such union completely?

Aside from the marriage bit, it infuriates me how the world just cannot act normally. Everytime something goes "publicly" humongously wrong, a "wrong" is committed in the opposite direction. I understand, gay people have been surpressed for a long time. I understand, they feel enjoyment in being able to come out and not hide anything. But then they have these movies where the (usually) female protagonist has her wonderful gay friend who lives upstairs/works nearby, who is (obviously  :) in the fashion/interior decoration industry, has "incredible" fashion sense, and walks funny.
I don't understand. Does the fact that you prefer sleeping with someone of the same sex dictate these other, completely unconnected factors? Does the fact that homosexuals have been surpressed for so long mean that I have to be offended by these one-dimensional, absurd characters, who's only character trait is that they are "gay"?

About adoption, I'm curious...are single males/females are allowed to adopt?

[Meowster]

Marriage existed before christianity, I think, and it also exists in non-christian countries and cultures. The idea that Marriage is an exclusively christian/religious thing and that is why gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry, is absolutely ridiculous and one that's thrown around far too often.

In fact, nowadays many people who get married aren't religious at all. If I was to marry my current boyfriend, we wouldn't do so in a church or under the eye of god yadda yadda yadda.


I have no idea what you mean by the rest of your post, though.

As far as I know, single parents are allowed to adopt children so long as they can prove they can adequately support the child in a stable environment, ie not be at work all day and not earning enough money to support them. So it's actually pretty rare, because it's a rare situation to be in...

[Tuomas]

About adoption, I'm curious...are single males/females are allowed to adopt?

I can only speak for Finland since I don't really know, but I think I forgot to mention in the first sentence, they are willing to aid single women and lesbians to get babies of their own (through pregnancy). But when it comes to adoption, only registered couples can adopt in Finland. That would be if there's two of you who are adopting. I couldn't find it in the adoption law, but I should thing considering the way that sentence was put, a single person can adopt. There's no mentioning homosexuals there at all, and I don't see why there should be. But yeah, a couple must be registered, but singles can also adopt. As far as the parents of the child agree to it.

[Tartalo]

About adoption, I'm curious...are single males/females are allowed to adopt?

Initially yes, in Spain it's possible for a single person to adopt a child. But it doesn't look like easy, as it's considered that a single person will have more trouble to grow a child alone than a couple.

[Babar]

Marriage existed before christianity, I think, and it also exists in non-christian countries and cultures. The idea that Marriage is an exclusively christian/religious thing and that is why gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry, is absolutely ridiculous and one that's thrown around far too often.

I wasn't only talking about christianity, infact, you'll notice, I said religion. I wasn't referring to nowadays either, I said "set up". I'd be very interested in hearing about any culture where the concept of "marriage" didn't originally have the hand of that culture's major religion in it.

[radiowaves]

Face it, homosexualism is not normal. Its a freakish side effect of nature. Vagina and penis fit with each other, anus and penis doesn't, at least without hurting anyone and without lots of lube (which applies to circumzision too).
Now, if a child is raised by homosexuals and he grows up without seeing the man-woman relationship, the odds are, the child turns gay in the future. Child is a learning organism, he adops most of his parents personalities and therefore he may not understand the man-woman relationship.
Plus thechild may suffer through community, what do you think how the other childs react when they hear that poor boy/girl has two fathers or two mothers?

And gay marriage is pointless. Most of gay people switch partners often, have sex with HIV positives and just care about sex. I am quite shure that married gay couples are still going to have threesomes etc, and that makes marrying quite pointless. It also applies to hetero couples who like group action...

I suggest you watch Gaspar Noes "Irreversible" to undrstand what the most part of gay community are (not for people who has weak nervers).
I once saw some TV show where they interwieved a gay club owner and camera showed the rooms of the club (not in clubbing time ofcourse). I'd say these kinds of parts are not in any normal clubs...

And religion has nothing to do with this, it is just common sence. History has shown us that religion is so bendable and most of the people who believe in church word by word are just fucking tools, thats all. I am not atheist btw.

[Meowster]

Face it, homosexualism is not normal. Its a freakish side effect of nature. Vagina and penis fit with each other, anus and penis doesn't, at least without hurting anyone and without lots of lube (which applies to circumzision too).
Now, if a child is raised by homosexuals and he grows up without seeing the man-woman relationship, the odds are, the child turns gay in the future. Child is a learning organism, he adops most of his parents personalities and therefore he may not understand the man-woman relationship.
Plus thechild may suffer through community, what do you think how the other childs react when they hear that poor boy/girl has two fathers or two mothers?

And gay marriage is pointless. Most of gay people switch partners often, have sex with HIV positives and just care about sex. I am quite shure that married gay couples are still going to have threesomes etc, and that makes marrying quite pointless. It also applies to hetero couples who like group action...

I suggest you watch Gaspar Noes "Irreversible" to undrstand what the most part of gay community are (not for people who has weak nervers). I once saw the TV show where they interwieved a gay club owner and camera showed the rooms of the club. I'd say these kinds of parts are not in any normal clubs...

Oh dear, radiowaves... you really are ignorant.

People don't choose to be gay. If that was the case, why would children of two fundamentalist christians turn out to be gay? In fact, 99% of children who grow up to be gay, live with heterosexual parents. The idea that a child would turn out "gay" because he grew up with gay parents is a ridiculous statement to make, a completely uneducated and ridiculous statement. How old are you?

I am quite shure that married gay couples are still going to have threesomes

Again, what a horribly untrue thing to say. I work with many gay men right now; not one of them is this promiscuous, dirty stereotype that you seem to think all gay people are. One of them has been in a relationship for the past 6 years. Another has lived with his partner for the past two years.

You are "quite sure" that many married gay couples are still going to have threesome? What are you basing this on?

I'm quite stunned at how quickly people will stand up and making the stupidest of comments without really knowing what they're talking about.

And gay people are so careful about STDs these days, that they're a lot safer than many hetero people I know, who regularly engage in casual sex with strangers. Lots of straight women these days seem to think that being on the pill is sexual protection enough, without thinking of the dangers of sexually transmitted diseases. To assume that unsavoury and unsafe sexual practices are exclusive to the gay community is ridiculous.

Can I please see statistics that prove that "the odds are" that children turn gay if they have gay parents?

I'd also like to say that you're wrong about the penis and the anus not fitting together. They do, very well indeed, and anal sex can be a very pleasurable experience for both parties involved... male or female. I know this from experience. You, on the other hand, are simply making up a bunch of bullshit.

Please don't bother posting in this thread if it's simply to make uneducated comments. You'll be quickly shot down by people smarter than you, and it's going to waste everyones time.


The comments you're making, are the equivelent of me saying:

I saw your profile and that you're from Estonia. Estonia is a 3rd world country, isn't it? I'm surprised you even have the internet out there. Everybody out there is uneducated... I'm not surprised you have such ill-informed views. Estonians don't stay in school past the age of 12... at that age, they're made to work on the Paddy Farms with their parents. Maybe you're so paranoid about AIDS because AIDS is so prevalent out there...

[Steel Drummer]

How many more married gay men couples do you see getting AIDS than heterosexual married couples? 

And why do you people think that bestiality is okay?   

Everybody out there is uneducated... I'm not surprised you have such ill-informed views. Estonians don't stay in school past the age of 12... at that age, they're made to work on the Paddy Farms with their parents. Maybe you're so paranoid about AIDS because AIDS is so prevalent out there...

How do you know enough about the country to make assumptions like that? I think in a place like Estonia, there'd be less gay people, because they don't have perverted sexual ideas fed to them...

[Meowster]

How many more married gay men couples do you see getting AIDS than heterosexual married couples?

Exactly! I don't know a single gay person with AIDS. Especially not married gay couples, as they can't even get married in most places anyway.... Well said, SD

And look at places like Africa, where HIV is spreading horrifically fast. It's not spreading between the gay community, it's spreading from hetero to hetero, because of people having unprotected sex and not being educated enough about it. Tell me, radiowaves, does that make African people dirty and disgusting and worthless?

If religious people don't like gay people because god told them not to, then I wish they would say that and stop trying to think of other excuses as to why gay people are bad. Just admit you don't like them because they make you feel insecure and/or because god doesn't like them either. Don't make shit up.

[Buckethead]

Gee I didn't see this thread before. I'm gay myself and I didn't have many issues with it yet. My friends are cool about it. I think it's because I live in the Netherlands. People seem to be more open minded here. I even got one of my friends asking how gay sex feels. He is from Sweden though. I guess some people will always look a little different to gays then they look at straight people. I couldn't careless about them, most people are just cool to me. Maybe I'll encounter more problems in the future if I might meet the right guy and want to marry. But I think it's OK, since it's legal to marry in my country. 

[Meowster]

How do you know enough about the country to make assumptions like that? I think in a place like Estonia, there'd be less gay people, because they don't have perverted sexual ideas fed to them...

Steel Drummer, please at least read my post if you're going to reply to it. Or don't get involved in these discussions at all.

My point was that he doesn't know enough about homosexuality to make the assumptions that he does. It was an example, one that you should also pay attention to. Do you see now?

You repeatedly read post incorrectly and make offensive and uneducated remarks about gay people. Could you please stop posting in this thread or sort yourself out a bit.

[Steel Drummer]

If religious people don't like gay people because god told them not to, then I wish they would say that and stop trying to think of other excuses as to why gay people are bad. Just admit you don't like them because they make you feel insecure and/or because god doesn't like them either. Don't make shit up.

God never said to hate them, he just said that two men gettin' it on was wrong. He never said anything about being gay... 

Steel Drummer, please at least read my post if you're going to reply to it. Or don't get involved in these discussions at all. 

If I hadn't read your post, I wouldn't have referenced it by saying: 'How can you make assumptions like that.' 

And besides, who are you to tell me what threads I should and shouldn't post in? That's the moderators' job.

[Andail]

Radiowaves, please don't ever write such crap here again. Your entire post is such a magnificent display of ignorance and arrogance that it doesn't deserve an actual reply. But I feel I have to. Not because I think you will read the response; people like you rarely browse through the reactions of your troll dung.

* First of all, homosexuality isn't freakish just because it doesn't result in child birth. That would make being single and sexually abstaining freakish too, which it isn't. It would make couples who regularly have sex while on the pill freaks too, which they aren't.

* Secondly, not all homosexuals penetrate. Sex isn't defined by the practice of inserting your penis in another person's orifice, sex can be lots of stuff.

* Thirdly...oh and what about circumcision? Freakish and painful? I'm circumcised, I had sex just two hours ago and it went smashingly. No lube needed, no pain felt, nothing but pleasure, mate. She came, if you want to know.

* Fourthly, let's see...Kids become gay because their parents are? How extraordinarily dumb of you. "Child is a learning organism" oh damn are you sure? Good gravy, it sounds just like you have studied pedagogy for years and years! Which I have, by the way. I'm not even gonna treat this point further because it's just too dumb.

*Fifthly...Irreversible...is a movie. The thing I remember most clearly is the scene where a man rapes a woman. It's a 15 minutes, extremely disturbing scene, and there is nothing gay about it.

* Sixthly...just get over yourself, dude. Get out of your shell, learn to know some human beings.

[Meowster]

If I hadn't read your post, I wouldn't have referenced it by saying: 'How can you make assumptions like that.' 

And besides, who are you to tell me what threads I should and shouldn't post in? That's the moderators' job.

You read but completely misunderstood my post, which you've done on several occasions recently. It's highly irritating, as though you're only choosing what you want to see and ignoring everything else.

I'm ASKING you not to post because you're making a fool of yourself, and winding up everyone else. And it's not even as though you're contributing opinions that are useful or informed... I wouldn't mind if your views were the opposite of mine but backed up with real information and fact, but you repeatedly spout utter nonsense that you've pulled out of nowhere.

It doesn't take a moderator to see that you're being an ass.

Forget gays, forget religion, forget everything... you're being an asshole. You're trying to argue about a subject you know nothing about, using facts you've made up or heard somebody else make up. That makes your contribution annoying and pointless, no matter what it is you're arguing about, so I ask you again, PLEASE stop posting. Do something useful like research homosexuality and then try posting again. But at the moment you're doing nothing but winding people up and adding yet more shit to the internet.

[Andail]

Meowster, try to ignore the trolls.
I chose to reply only to Radiowaves, because he hasn't got a troll history. I'm not even reacting to Steeldrummer's/Yodaman's posts anymore. It's like a personal spamfilter.

[Gord10]

I completely agree with Andail; especially about the "pain of circumcision".

Almost every male in my country and the other Muslim countries are circumcisied; they would laugh out loudly if they heard someone said it is painful to have sex with a circumcisied penis.

Please don't have certain verdicts about the topics you don't know well.

[big brother]

Amazingly, one can grow the foreskin back after circumcision. Penn and Teller did a bit about that in that in their circumcision is bullshit episode.

Of course, magicians need to know how to make things reappear, so no big surprise.

[MrColossal]

after watching that episode of bullshit I was HYPER-AWARE of my junk for like 2 months... Ever step, every crouch, every time my cat jumped in my lap... Thanks Penn and Teller!

[Meowster]

I'm going to post this in reply to Steel Drummer and radiowaves, because it is factual and interesting information for everyone to read whilst (hopefully) simultaneously educating the pair of them a little.

http://www.avert.org/eurosum.htm

Of the 23,246 people with newly diagnosed HIV which the West reported in 2004,

    * 58% probably acquired HIV through heterosexual contact
    * 31% were homo/bisexual men
    * 9% were injecting drug users
    * 36% were female

Heterosexual contact has been the most frequent transmission mode in the West since 1999. It is responsible for the largest proportion of diagnosed HIV infections in every country except Germany, Denmark, Greece and the Netherlands, in which men who have sex with men form the largest transmission group. Heterosexual transmission predominates even in Portugal, which has a particularly severe HIV epidemic among injecting drug users.




For the attention of Steel Drummer and this comment in particular:

I think in a place like Estonia, there'd be less gay people, because they don't have perverted sexual ideas fed to them...

Estonia has more cases of HIV and AIDS reported every year than Austria, Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Kazakhstan (great success!!), Greece... and so on and so on. Now, I'm not making any judgements about Estonia because clearly most countries have a problem with AIDS and there are some countries with more of a problem than Estonia. I'm simply pointing out the idiocy of what you said, Steel Drummer. Do you see that there, right there, is an example of you saying idiotic things without any knowledge behind what you're saying?

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say you need to research your posts a little more.

[Raggit]

Penn and Teller are so awesome.  I love Bullshit!  (The show, not the actual thing.)

I thought that episode about infant circumcision was very well done, and I agree wholeheartedly.

[Tartalo]

I'd be very interested in hearing about any culture where the concept of "marriage" didn't originally have the hand of that culture's major religion in it.

Marriage is a social structure that seems present in all cultures with slight differences. Religion is too, and every important social issue has been traditionally blessed. So I don't see secular marriage as extracting something from Religion, but extracting Religion from a traditional social structure.

Penn and Teller would say that marriage itself is Bullshit, wouldn't they?

[Blackthorne]

People often say "People don't choose to be homosexuals; they're born that way."

And while I feel that statement has some validity to it - there are most certainly people who are born attracted to the same sex - I've known a few people in my lifetime that have "chosen" to be gay for many reasons.  I actually believe most people are bi-sexual to some degree.


Bt

[LimpingFish]

I think an interesting angle to homosexuality is the term "born that way" . It almost renders homosexuality as an imperfection in an otherwise "normal" person.

If, in fact, some people are genetically pre-disposed to homosexuality, what is the dominant factor in their genetic make-up that results in said homosexuality?

To say people are simply born "gay", denotes the presence of something beyond a developed (through life/experience/misc) attraction to the same sex.

If homosexual people are born that way, why do otherwise heterosexual people sometimes confess to experiencing, however fleeting, homosexual tendencies? Are these people actually born homosexual but, through life/experience/misc, conditioned to be heterosexual?

Presupposing that it is genetic, isn't it therefore possible that these factors could be isolated and "reprogrammed" in the subject at the foetal stage? That you could engineer specifically homo or hetero babies?

Or if, as Blackthorne said, all people are actually bi-sexual to some degree, then the point where a person "becomes" homo or hetero happens after birth. So homosexual people wouldn't be born that way.

Confusing.

[Meowster]

I think it's called the Kinsey scale... look it up, it's interesting but I have to run home now as my work here is DONE (at work, not on the forums obviously)

[LimpingFish]

Kinsey knew his onions.

The Kinsey Sexuality Scale.

His findings on the subject seem to indicate that terms "homosexual" and "heterosexual" are more or less transient.

Groovy.

[radiowaves]

For your surprise, I red through every reply to my courageous post. Ok, gay people exist, there isn't much to do about it and its ok if they do their own thing. I respect any homosexual being as any other human. But there is still no reason, why these people should earn the parental rights.
Do not forget the fact, that every normal parent puts his mind to his/her child, like extending the life to next generations. They teach him courage, wisdom, knowledge and standards of life, what is normal, and what is not. Have you ever thought about why in some areas of the world, people have sex when they are 13 year old, and in the other part of the world, pople doesn't have sex until they get married? Here is the hint: moral. And who are the main source of moral? Yes, parents. Hence, it does affect childs sexuality.
So, allowing homosexuals to adopt children, may lead the society to moral crisis. And it is true, that when one minority gets its rights to something, other such minorities start to claim rights too. And that Irreversible scene, think about where did such rapist come from.

It is kind of OT, but yes, Estonia has lots of HIV positives. But that is mostly due to big heroin usage in North-East Estonia where life standards are lower and crime rates bigger.
My statement that some homosexuals want to have a sexual experience with HIV positive comes again, from a TV show where a homosexual stated it. But yes, this is a minority, I think. So that statement, including threesomes etc, was a bit harsh, but it still aplies. Most of the heterosexuals, on the other hand, do not want to have a sexual intercourse with HIV positive, they are mostly just unaware of it.

[ManicMatt]

Radiowaves:

My brother is gay. I am not. We have the same parents and upbringing. Your theory is therefore flawed. And my brother is the nicest guy you could ever hope to meet, he's puts my niceness to shame!

Also, let me add that my parents brought me up to eat meat. Yet I do not eat meat now. So how come what they taught me has not applied? Although I think homosexuality is not a choice.

[MrColossal]

And yet your brother eats meat SORRY! OH GOD I COULDN'T RESIST IT!

[ManicMatt]

Well... uh.. that's right he does!

[Nikolas]

For your surprise, I red through every reply to my courageous post. Ok, gay people exist, there isn't much to do about it and its ok if they do their own thing. I respect any homosexual being as any other human. But there is still no reason, why these people should earn the parental rights.

ahem...

Well, let's think of it this way then:

you have a great family. Mother, father 2 children.

BANG!
A car accident mother's dead.

Father's left with the children!

Is HE capable of taking care of his children or not?

Cause if you dare answer yes, then why shouldn't 2 males take care of a child? which should be better, as they would be happy, and not torn by despare of their lost wives, complete as a couple and healthy and everything! Because, as you say, gay have every right to be as they are and additionally you respect this as well!

If you would like to say no, then I will simply come to your place and kick your butt, as I'm extremely sensetive to parenting issues and especially all the rights that fathers do not have! (I know a father how is REALLY a nice guy, and sees his daugher twice a month! How fair is that??)

[Tartalo]

It's funny and related:
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/opinion/a-fundamental-wrong-in-letting-some-marry/2007/03/30/1174761750887.html

[radiowaves]

Its odd that all topics that discuss homosexuality issues discuss mostly gay people (men) only, but people forget the lesbians (women).
I remember when my mother said that she may tolerate gays, but definately she doesn't understand lesbians. And I guess it is vice versa with men.
Therefore, I believe that two women can raise a child better that two men, because women have mother instincts. BUT it would be total disaster if two women raise a boy, he would go crazy or just turn into feminine. If there is a single mother raising a boy, the other side is still open and child has more mental freedom in that part, but shurely he would miss a father. I know, because I lost my father in a bike accident too, and there have been times where I just need a father who could understand me better. I've been raised by my mother and grandmothers. I believe if I had been raised by a single father, i would miss a mom too, but its basically the same as single mother parenting.
ManicMatt, you actually didn't prove my theory was wrong since I didn't say that heterosexual parenting excludes homosexuals, it just doesn't conduct to it. My parents were both meat eaters too, I try to go to vegeterian. Partly because I just don't like the taste of pork and partly because of some morality issues that, by the way, have been influenced by my parents because I have always been with animals and my mother always told me to not do other person something I don't want to be done to myself. So, lets put it this way: my morals are the product of my parents plus society they let me be in and mental freedom. But morals of homosexual couples are more vague. You may know the morals of your homo friend but not as a homosexual couple.

And I am totally with you from the single fathers view, Nikolas. For most of the mothers, men only seem to be moneymachines to them.

[Meowster]

Erm.

to most mothers, men only seem to be money machines?

¬¬ eh??

And what do you mean, about "You may know the morals of your homo friend but not as a homosexual couple"?

Can you explain to me how you believe a child would be raised incorrectly if raised by homosexual parents?

I was raised by an extremely abusive father, and a very loving but scared mother. I'm not a scared person, nor am I an abusi ve or violent person. I didn't turn out like my parents at all, but I still learned from them and their situation. That doesn't mean I chose to be exactly like either of them, so what makes you (or SD, I forget which of you originally said it) beileve that a child raised by homosexual couples would become gay?

The only obvious impact on that child that I can see, is that they wouldn't be anti-gay and would be advocates for gay rights. Unless they hate their parents, in which case they're probably rebel and be anti-gay or something...

[Steel Drummer]

People often say "People don't choose to be homosexuals; they're born that way."

And while I feel that statement has some validity to it - there are most certainly people who are born attracted to the same sex - I've known a few people in my lifetime that have "chosen" to be gay for many reasons.  I actually believe most people are bi-sexual to some degree.


Bt

Gayness is always by choice. Heterosexual people 'choose' to like a man/woman. Same with homosexuals. 

I'm just going to ignore Meowster and Andail's posts.

[Erenan]

Honest question: How do you know that sexual preference is always a choice, Steel Drummer?

[Mr Flibble]

Maybe he means that gay people should live in denial of what would make them happy, and enter into hollow, loveless marriages for the sake of keeping up appearances.

Note: Ignoring your own sexuality is not the same as being able to choose it.

[ManicMatt]

If Steel Drummer thinks he can choose his own sexuality, then perhaps he is bisexual! For I know there is no way I could just decide I want to bum Eric and enjoy it. And we all know that too. (Except Yodaman)

[Steel Drummer]

So I guess when a gay man gets surgery to become a woman, it's his 'inner sexual instinct' that's telling him to do it, and not his disgustingly perverted brain?

[GarageGothic]

You're confusing gay with transgendered, which in turn has less to do with sex than with gender identity.

[Raggit]

I'm just going to ignore Meowster and Andail's posts.

That resolve probably won't last too long...

I'm really surprised, to be honest, that this debate could survive so long and be so strong that it actually crossed two threads.  A crossover hit!

"Disgustingly perverted" brain?  A little harsh, don't you think?

[Steel Drummer]

You're confusing gay with transgendered, which in turn has less to do with sex than with gender identity.

But transgender people are gay. Because they're gay, they probably thought, "Hey, I'm getting enough ridicule because I'm with this other man, so why not become a woman, and I'll be treated normally", or vice-versa.

[GarageGothic]

What about men who have gender reassignment surgery and become lesbian women then? Are they more or less gay?

[deadsuperhero]

SD, it really upsets me that you'd be so quick to judge transsexed folk like that.
Tell you what. Read personal blogs and web pages of transgendered folk. It'll give you some insight to the fact that most of them are normal folk.
I'll pull up a reference guide:
www.abgender.com

Also, it's a lifestyle. Let people live how they want to.
Besides, one of my friends is gay, and my other best friend wants to be a girl.
They act totally normal, and are the best friends I could ask for.

[Steel Drummer]

I've seen you post before and you said you claimed to be a Christian, and now you're condoning gay marriage? Read the Bible, man..

[deadsuperhero]

I am a Christian. I condone gay marriage because I condone freedom of others. I'm not going to make gays miserable (like The WCBC, which is evil)
God loves everyone. He even sent His Son to set an example for us.
...or did you skip that part of the Bible?
Let people live their own lives.

[Redwall]

Even if you had some validity when he was sincere, he's now so far into "I'm being an ass just to be an ass" that there really is no other reasonable option.

[Sam.]

A refreshing and decent attitude Alliance.

SteelDrummer, in todays modern soceity, variation is what makes it. Conform to dated rules set out by MEN, not God (Yes, the bible was written by men) then you have no place in a modern scoeity. What you believe is fundamentally wrong, you have to be prepared to come up against opposition. Degrading someone because of their colour or sexuality is so undeniably stupid that I have hesitated to post here however I can tolerate your ignorance no longer.

Sexuality is NOT a personal choice, blinkered beleif is. Perhaps when you have grown up slightly and seen some of the world and the people in it, you will learn to accept people for what they are, until such time, I suggest you try and learn some facts about life, facts that perhaps are slightly more up to date than a Book written to suit some men's needs thousands of years ago.

[Steel Drummer]

Conform to dated rules set out by MEN, not God (Yes, the bible was written by men)

No, it was written by men who were told by God what they should write. Don't make accusations like that without studying the facts.

[deadsuperhero]

In other news, my dog ate my homework today.
It sucked.

[Steel Drummer]

Good for you.

[ildu]

No, it was written by men who were told by God what they should write. Don't make accusations like that without studying the facts.

What a credential. Tantamount to L. Ron Hubbard, Dubya and the crazy person on my street who keeps arguing with the traffic lights.

P.S. Consider also that the Bible was heavily edited.

[Meowster]

Okay at this stage I'm inclined to agree with Helm and Andail and others: Everybody ignore the troll! We can all see that what he's saying is ridiculous, and none of us are going to change his mind until he grows up a little.

It seems obvious to me that he's a repressed homosexual, struggling to deal with his sexuality. There's no other reason he'd be so wound up by it all. It's no use arguing with people like him. Until he comes to terms with his homosexuality, he'll do anything to deny it.

Alliance: that's a really nice view of God, like the one I mentioned my friends having in school. And an awesome attitude, innit!!

[Babar]

Despite previous examples to the contrary  , not everyone who thinks that homosex is bad is homosexual. I'd find it a little far-fetched if every single "Word-of-God" believer were gay.

[Meowster]

Not every one, I can name many who aren't.

Just the ones who are so desperate to prove to themselves that being gay must be wrong, they make silly things up about homosexuals.

[voh]

I have a bit of a double opinion on the matter of homosexuality. While on one hand I've always felt it to be an awkward thing - man and woman is the intended sexuality of not only humans, but also animals and even some plants, making homosexuality a bit of a natural dysfunction. I'm not saying it's unnatural, because otherwise it wouldn't exist, and it would indeed have to be a choice, which it isn't.

However, what I've also always felt is that you can't punish a human being for something they didn't choose, and since homosexuality doesn't mean anything else than a difference in sexual preference, there's really no negative effect to see. There are men and women in the world who've vowed to remain celibate their entire lives. Now THAT is unnatural.

Gay marriage is logical. It's difficult enough for them to find a steady partner because sadly, the world still frowns on the matter of homosexuality, and a lot of homosexuals are afraid of coming out because of it. There's also a lot of homosexuals who are so afraid of coming out that they get married to a partner of the opposite sex but still have sex with partners of their own sex, seemingly leading a normal life but having to lie to themselves (or so they believe, what with the fear). I'm basing this on some friends of mine, who are gay, and who have on many occasions had to explain the lack of long relationships to people.

Most of them would want a long relationship, get married, perhaps adopt a kid, get a house, lead a normal (as much as possible for the outside world) and fulfilling life and not get hassled and picked on by bigots and assholes who can't accept that people can do whatever the hell they want, since it's a free world (mostly).

I am glad, and even proud that the Netherlands was the first country to allow same-sex marriages and civil unions, and to see that other European countries followed suit, and more countries planning on allowing it.

I feel that
1) Same-sex marriages, solely by their existance, support and comfort the gay community, saying it's okay according to the law, and therefore, please, come out, be honest and true to yourself (quote from a gay friend)
2) Adoption for same-sex couples also gives them a chance to do someting which people forget gay people have as well - the will and longing to be a parent and bring up a little person. Also, since gay couples can pretty much only adopt a kid, there's a loving home for kids who have nobody, which is worth all the trouble.
3) Being gay isn't a choice, and therefore there's no reason not to allow them to adopt. Other people will just have to accept that it's going to happen and stop their bigotry.

Everyone who tries to stop them from being what they are is saying that they are abnormal, and are freaks. In today's western societies, that's just completely ass-backwards. All of our forefathers fought for more freedom, freedom of choice, religion, speech, whatnot. And now some want to reverse parts of those and punish people for how they were born.

[ildu]

Okay at this stage I'm inclined to agree with Helm and Andail and others: Everybody ignore the troll!

It seems obvious to me that he's a repressed homosexual, struggling to deal with his sexuality. There's no other reason he'd be so wound up by it all. It's no use arguing with people like him. Until he comes to terms with his homosexuality, he'll do anything to deny it.

If anything, this is the real trolling. Having his own opinions doesn't mean he's gay. There are loads of reasons he might be sore about it - living in a like-minded community for one.

[Meowster]

I'm trying to point out how annoying it can be when people make assumptions about you based on nothing relevant at all.

But I fear it may be lost on him as he likely has HIV, as he's clearly a repressed homosexual, and HIV  makes it difficult for people to concentrate. Coincidentally, another symptom of HIV is being a young male and making up facts to support an argument as to why you don't like homosexuals.

Fact!

Good heavens, he's almost certainly riddled with disease. Dirty, dirty, perverted boy.

If SD intends to make things up and make ridiculous and untrue statements to support his opinions on certain groups of people, he must expect people to do the same of him. I've decided I don't like SD, and I'm going to make up all the facts in the world as to why. Maybe this will help him realise the error of his perverted ways, and he'll stop playing into the hands of the devil himself.

[Buckethead]

Everyone completely ignored my post! I bet it's because I'm gay  :'(

[ManicMatt]

No it's because you have a bucket for a head.

[Helm]

I believe that in some cases becoming gay is not a biological inclination as much as a social inclination. I don't say 'choice' because I don't believe in free will to begin with, but in your terms, I mean 'gay by choice', yes. As in they feel they should become gay inspite of their heterosexual inclination being at least just as strong.

I don't think this discredits biologically inclined gays in any serious way, as social choices about one's own sexuality are up to them anyway as far as I'm concerned and as long as they're not hurting or forcing anybody. I just don't like to see people kneejerk 'OMFG IT'S ALL GENETIC, ASSHOLE' everytime someone says 'hey, people have gone gay without any of that sometimes'.

If anything, were we to study humans free from social constraints for a few generations we'd probably find habitual homosexuality because sex = stress reliever and you can have sex with whomever. This doesn't mean one is gay or straight because these terms are loaded. It means people enjoy coming. In this sense, we're pansexual.

[biothlebop]

Dominant - Submissive
Male - Female
Masculine - Feminine
Master - Servant

I see these words/concepts in a way interlinked and possibly relating to the orientation of sexuality. Our genes determine our masculinity, our "power", so in a way sexual orientation is not our choice. The act, however, is, if we believe in the concept of choice.

A male that lacks animal (masculine) power might be directed toward homosexuality by its environment; The stronger males will hoard the females for themselves (leading to a disproportion between available males and females), while the "weaker" (more feminine) males will still have unsatisfied urges.
If the male does not utilise another male to satisfy these urges, that male is not neccessarily an homosexual, unless masturbation is seen as homosexual.
In fact, by some definition, any sexual conduct without the intent or possibility of reproduction could be seen as homosexual or deviant sexual behaviour.

In the case of lesbians, i'd believe that there are cases when a masculine female is "stronger" than the available males (or there is a female/male disproportion)
and she directs her urges upon another "weaker" (more feminine) female. Sometimes this could present itself as dominatrixes in heterosexual behaviour.

I believe we merely choose partners (from those we can dominate/submit to us) or are chosen (by those that exercise their power upon us or that we submit to), and every sexual encounter is an individual occurrence, a choice. I am not 100% heterosexual, I have kissed men and even found it pleasing, but choose to refrain from further "traditional" homosexual behaviour (penetration etc.), since it places a certain stigma upon the individual and I wouldn't gain anything from it, as my needs are usually fulfilled, and if the interest arises, I could even have a woman take my anal virginity with a dildo or something and still be heterosexual by some definitions.
----
The above is slightly influenced by Nietsche (I have been recently listening to some audio-lectures by Robert Solomon & Kathleen Higgins about him and his ideas) and the interpretation that (a struggle of) power describes well the underlying motives for human interaction, so this is from that perspective. Also, I have a feeling that everything connects in some cosmical way, so sexuality and human behaviour can probably be explained in several other ways as well and there are probably lots of individual examples that prevent this from being always accurate.

I haven't yet read all posts either (sorry), so this might be redundant, but I felt like writing something based on those that I did.

[Sam.]

Conform to dated rules set out by MEN, not God (Yes, the bible was written by men)

No, it was written by men who were told by God what they should write. Don't make accusations like that without studying the facts.

and who told YOU that? The men who bloody wrote it. Don't make accusations like that without a sense of perspetive.

[Erenan]

God told me what to say in this post, as follows:

Shut up! I'm trying to sleep!


God didn't tell me to say this part:

I mostly agree with what Helm said, minus the genetic determinism.

[lo_res_man]

I am a Christian. I condone gay marriage because I condone freedom of others. I'm not going to make gays miserable (like The WCBC, which is evil)
God loves everyone. He even sent His Son to set an example for us.
...or did you skip that part of the Bible?
Let people live their own lives.

That is basically what I think as well,  allowing people to live their own lives is fine with me. As long as you follow the golden rule, found in thousands of ethical codes, you are a morel person. Whether gayness is "choice" or not I'll leave to the scientists, but even if its not genetic, it may be no more of choice then a mental illness, ( though it isn't one, I am not implying that)
I like to think of my self as somewhat christian, that is, it is the religion I most identify with, but that may be just my upbringing.

[Becky]

Even if it is a choice, does it really matter when it comes to treating all human beings as equals, allowing consenting adults to live their lives as they see fit? 

[Helm]

I agree strongly, Becky. I just dislike people disregarding possible truth because they kneejerked all the way out of ballpark.

[voh]

What I've always found peculiar is the split in homosexual society, where there's the type that's just a regular guy/girl who just so happens to be homosexual, and you've got the over-the-top effeminate guys and over-the-top masculine girls.

They crack me up though. There's nothing funnier than seeing a skinny guy in a pink boa tell off some guy for calling him a 'queer' while making elaborate hand gestures and speaking in a high-pitched squeeky voice. Especially the fact that the guy calling him something negative will usually slink off, entirely uncomfortable with the looks he's getting.

Pink boas FTW!

[lo_res_man]

Even if it is a choice, does it really matter when it comes to treating all human beings as equals, allowing consenting adults to live their lives as they see fit? 

Exactimo Becky, it's your life, you live it, sexuality is not a moral issue.

[Helm]

What I've always found peculiar is the split in homosexual society, where there's the type that's just a regular guy/girl who just so happens to be homosexual, and you've got the over-the-top effeminate guys and over-the-top masculine girls.

They crack me up though. There's nothing funnier than seeing a skinny guy in a pink boa tell off some guy for calling him a 'queer' while making elaborate hand gestures and speaking in a high-pitched squeeky voice. Especially the fact that the guy calling him something negative will usually slink off, entirely uncomfortable with the looks he's getting.

Pink boas FTW!

While sexual orientation being a choice or not is certainly under debate, that social identifiers for sexuality are chosen roles mostly isn't.

I look forward to a post-modern time where raging homosexual behaviour will no longer necessarily signify that a person is gay.

oh wait

[Tuomas]

Thanks for making the reading worthwile people. I was away for 2 days and we got a lot of opinions this far, some positive some negative, but they're all important, and they're good material for me, so yay. Basically though I wouldn't want to stop some people like Steel Drummer from posting at all because reading his posts I'm getting to see his views. And even though ones opinion is based on some more or less correct facts, it doesn't really matter, it's an opinion. I don't go shooting right wingers because they disagree, I'd just rather see what makes them disagree. Now I agree... err, dunno what, sorry, a black out... Due to end of this post*. But it's great to see so many people agree with me, and it's great to see there are no big fights, and no-one is on a rampage even though this is a somewhat dangerous subject.

* yay a girl I just met sent me an sms, so I gotta go now ^_^ (yeah, I'm straight too)

[vict0r]

(yeah, I'm straight too)

Not with that haircut gonzo.

[lo_res_man]

But you got a BEARD?! lol  
edit, aw shucks, that was my joke!

[Tuomas]

O_o eh?

[Mozesh]

Some people say that they think things like gay marriage is wrong because of their believes. Is your believe theirs? Should they be bothered about what the heck you think? I think not. Personally I think it's great that here in Holland such things as gay-marriage are possible.

Also I'm surprised about the amount of bullcrap given as arguments by the 'against' side. Worldpeace starts with yerself, with respecting one another. Respecting one's sexuality is a big part of that ain't it?

[radiowaves]

Marriage is a part of many religions. So, by marrying, people accept the religious rules... well, at least thats how it is meant. People who don't have the belief in those rules, can just live together or find some another religion what allows them to marry.
But yeah, today, you can marry without church, you just sign some law papers and thats all, so... is it marriage or  there is another name for it?

[Nikolas]

Marriage is a contract inside or outside a religion.

In a religion you have the ceremony, so that everybody knows that you' re married, and give n a chance to say "No I don't want him, her".

In a court you sign the papers (which either way you also sign in a church).

It's the same thing pretty much... Church costs huge more usually...

[MrColossal]

I enjoy when the priest says "By the power vested in me by the state of New York..."

A priest can be the bestest of buddies with God, Jesus and Slimer but the state gives him the power to marry?

Maybe marriage is more a legal matter than people think?

[The Ivy]

Maybe marriage is more a legal matter than people think?

Dun dun dunnnnn!

Should somebody tell God?

[MrColossal]

I would but he won't accept my friend request on Myspace!

[LUniqueDan]

Maybe marriage is more a legal matter than people think?

You are touching something.

+++ Disclaimer +++
I'm Canadian and I shamelessly voted (twice) FOR same-sex union. I have NO moral issues w/ GLBTG. My bug are somewhere else :


+++ A Brief History of Marriage +++
1) One way to manage women who was considered as legally minor in most western countries.
(old-school marriage were nothing else than a legal change of ownership - Still there w. the father bringing is girl to the H.)

2) Societies way to manage the issue of children. (after #1)
(remember how effective contraception are still new in history)

3) Political / social / family ways to gain notoriety / power / wealth.
(The area of forced marriage - some of them planned 50yrs before someones birth.)

4) A religious obligation.

Then - Modern Time

5) A way to Hollywood / Disney to make happy endings without offending no one. "I Looooove Youuuu Forever Honey".

6a) A Tax deductions possibilities in modern nations.
6b) A way to reduce state accountability cost.

+++ A Brief History of Modernity +++
- Economical/political changes removed the #2 and #3.

- Woman suffrage and right to ownership killed #1 (and partly #2).

- Contraception methods / legalization of abortion in conjunction of the sexual liberation of the 60's flushed #2 and #4.

-Separation of Churches and States (or attempted to do so). Killed the #4. And created an all set of laws giving rights to non-married people living together having deduction parental rights and so on...

-
The Rest :
What's remaining?

I voted FOR same-sex unions because of 6a). (It was discriminative for gay people)
But honestly - (marriage around here stands 3 yrs in average. ) the only reason why there is still mention about such things as 'marriage' into the law is because no one have the pollitical courage of removed it when women became citizen. The rest are 24bits-color love crap.

(Next time I'm writing something that long - ban me :p )