Skepticism

[auriond]

What does nothing imposed by humans mean? There are more than vague references to punishment in the bible.

Perhaps for other things, but for those particular commandments I couldn't find anything specific. By "nothing imposed by humans" I meant that the passage seems to say God will punish you and your descendants to the third or fourth generation, but it doesn't say how. Neither does it say that humans will punish other humans for breaking the commandments. Of course, I haven't exactly finished the Bible myself, so if anyone else has more in-depth knowledge I would be glad if they can step in and fill in the gaps. I'm using the NIV Bible.

And I don't understand what you mean in your second point. If a book supposedly without flaw and written by the christian god explains the ins and outs of properly purchasing a slave and selling your own daughter into slavery [I don't see how one can take this any other way BUT literally]... That's a little different than a pillow being used to smother someone. I could beat someone to death with the bible because it's fairly dense and a fair bludgeoning tool but that doesn't make it dangerous, what's written inside it makes it dangerous.

Perhaps so. But I was using the pillow analogy as a general comparison for how something that could be harmless can be twisted to evil ends, so I just meant to say something doesn't have to contain immediately dangerous content to be dangerous.

Now regarding your particular example... I do realise the Bible is full of such rules, rituals, and so on. As I understand it, the Bible was not just a holy book in the time that it was written; it served as a record and a reference for everyday life. For that particular example you quoted about selling daughters into slavery, the context that has been left out is that a man would usually sell his daughter as a maidservant if he was very poor, or if there was the intention of the master marrying her, as the passage goes on to note. Not quite slavery as I understand it. The Bible doesn't include this context because it was understood by those this passage was directed at. Such rules, in fact, try to prevent the abuse of women (the master cannot sell the maidservant to foreigners if her family can't redeem her).

I don't think picking such rules that are so time- and space-specific would serve to further our understanding of the Bible's message. We would be committing the same mistakes that religious extremists do. Even if one agrees that the Bible is written by God, it is undeniably temporally and spatially specific, and it's unreasonable to assume that everything applies to us now, who aren't Jews in 300BC or whenever that passage was written. I've said before, but nobody picked up, that even Jesus himself didn't follow the Bible to the letter. He refused to stone an adulterer. I think that's a pretty clear message that one should follow the fundamental teachings of the Bible, and not every single letter.

Speaking of following the Bible to the letter, I recommend the book "The Year of Living Biblically" by A.J. Jacobs. It's a really good insight into the Bible and what it was really trying to do. It's also a pretty funny book, even for those who don't believe in the Bible or Christianity. Jacobs claims that he's not a religious person, by the way, but I thought he's gotten to the core of the Bible pretty well (at least the Old Testament, which is the thorniest bit of the Bible anyway).

I understand that that is what you were taught, so how do you reconcile what your were taught and what the bible says to do to someone who gathers sticks on sunday? No disrespect, I just never get to ask people these questions and these are the big hurdles I have to over come to understand faith.

I'm very happy that you're asking these questions Personally, I think the God in the Old Testament allowed a lot of stuff, and even encouraged and commanded a lot of stuff that seems alien to us today. But then, He was dealing with a people with different mindsets, different ways of life, and no knowledge of Jesus or salvation. And then too, God was different then. But this is just how I reconcile it.

In return, I have a few questions for atheists as well. I'm curious to know why is it that atheists seem to have such a big problem with the Old Testament? No atheists I've ever met have asked the questions that I find the most troubling, and those are in the New Testament. How about what Jesus says about not bringing peace, but a sword? What about what Jesus says about not being a real Christian if you choose your father and mother over him? After all, the Old Testament (in some kinds of Christianity) is seen as being cancelled out by the happenings of the New Testament. And these rather unforgiving words came from the guy who's supposed to have cancelled out the bad stuff!

Of course, again, those with a better understanding of the Bible are welcome to explain things to me

[MrColossal]

Perhaps for other things, but for those particular commandments I couldn't find anything specific.

What I mentioned to JBurger, God makes a commandment to honor the sabbath, a man is found gathering sticks on the sabbath and he is killed because god says that to work on the sabbath is to be punished by death. That's a specific punishment by god to humans for breaking a law he supposedly wrote in stone.

Did Jesus say that the sabbath is totally cool to work on? It seems jesus did some healing on the sabbath and then said it's cool to do "good" on the sabbath. So does that mean that you can heal people but not turn on a light switch to read a book? This is some confusing stuff. It seems like people think that Jesus abolished the sabbath [because really, that is a million times more convenient than if believed he didn't...] so all the old testament stuff is in the past. But if it really happened than THE PAST HAPPENED. How many people were killed before Jesus came along and said "Wait a sec there fellas!" Are those deaths acceptable losses to eventually getting Jesus?

the Bible's message

So then what is the bible's message? What does it say it is? Originally what did it say it is and what do people say it is now? When people were being stoned to death for picking up sticks did anyone say "Well, it's actually a collection of parables and suggestions on how to live your life!" or is that a recent thing?

So if not everything applies to us now, why hasn't the bible been amended by god? [If one says "Jesus amended the bible!" then he has a lot more editing to do!] If god doesn't change his rule book how can you possibly assume that the rules have changed? Is it not possible that you say it's unreasonable to assume all rules apply to us because you just don't like those rules the bible sets? Does the bible advise for or against not following all the laws?

But then, He was dealing with a people with different mindsets, different ways of life, and no knowledge of Jesus or salvation. And then too, God was different then. But this is just how I reconcile it.

Brrr I find it scary to think that because it was a different time people deserved to be treated so barbarically.

To not answer your question because I shan't speak for all athiests. All I'm trying to do is understand how people reconcile these things that I see as problems with living as a human and living by the bible. Like I said I haven't read, the bible I'm probably hitting the tallest nails which all seem to stick up out of the old testament. Jesus said and did some messed up stuff sure but those nails are a little smaller and lesser known to a non-religious person like myself. If I had the desire to read the bible and find out more stuff to hang on Jesus maybe I would but really, it would depress me too much I think.

It is interesting that you bring those examples up, having read them on the internet now I am curious what you think of them. Though I've used a lot of question marks already and these posts might just get more and more disjointed as small questions are answered here and there.

Forgive me if this post is hard to read, it is late and I must sleeesespsszzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[RickJ]

As I understand it the old testament is a history of the Jewish people and their relationship with God, which evolved over a period of time.   

It is also my understanding that the writings in the Bible are written by man and inspired by God rather than written by the hand of God himself.   Presuming this is the case, the human writers would have explained whatever divine messages or inspiration they may have received in familiar terms.   I don't know that it's  possible to write about something about which the writer has no understanding or knowledge of?  And if it were possible what relevance would it have to the writer's contemporaries who would also have no basis for understanding such a work?

So in a time when there were kingdoms, kings, and slaves is it really surprising that people understood God to be something like a king and thought of themselves as God's servants.  Would they not expect God to behave the way kings behave, i.e. give out punishments to the disobedient, take slaves, give orders, reward loyalty, etc, etc.   What would they write?

In the new testament Jesus says that the people are God's children and that he is like a loving father not a vindictive king.   

You ask how to resolve the inconsistency?  How can God change?    God did not change; The people's understanding of and/or relationship to God has changed/evolved over time.   

[Dualnames]

Not referring to last posts, but after twenty pages, I get the feeling, are we losing the point here?

[Stupot]

I know a man who is GUARANTEED to work on the Sabbath day, every week without fail.
And he's a PRIEST!!!

Hypocrites!

[Stupot]

THIS is why I consider myself to be more intelligent than religious people.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20081223/tuk-gay-christians-slam-pope-s-comments-6323e80.html

This is one of the thickest idiots on the planet and he has been given the highest position of power in the western religious world... A LOT of people do what this man says, because he is supposedly chosen by God...  So he is passing his ignorance and stupidity onto the millions of catholics in this world who are afraid to oppose what he says because they think they will go to hell.

I mean come on people...  How can anyone still believe this SHIT???  THIS IS THE 21st FUCKING CENTURY!!!!

I am so angry right now!

[Nacho]

Well... Finding a Christian with weird beliefs wouldn' t necesarilly mean that their idiology is definitelly fucked up... To be honest, I guess that all ideologies, even the good ones, have at least one person who twistes the meaning of the message to say weird things... If not more ^_^.

Even if that person is the leader that ideaology shouldn' t necesarilly be fucked up, IMHO...

But it opens the door for an avalange of "cons" about the divine source of Religion, methinks: Shouldn' t be a divine inspired ideology be perfect? Shouldn't be the message perfectly clear, so no anyone can missunderstand it? Shouldn' t it have some tools to choose its leader on Earth in the way he can understand and spread the word propperly? etc, etc...

Which brings an automatic reply by "believers": "God is perfect! It is us who do not understand the message propperly" or "In the same way that cold is absence of heat, evil is absence of God. If the Pope has ideas that are not close to God, it' s not God' s fault" (The famous "Einstein" theory)

And I use quotes ("") because Einstein never said that.

Two "automatic replies" I do not, to reply in short, agree with.

EDIT: On the other hand, the arguments the Pope keeps about this matter are, "biologically talking", flawless. The other thing is that, as Stupot said, we are in the XXIth century and "that"(*) is simply not going to happen. Ideologically, I find it disgusting.

(*) End of the human race because of hordes of homosexuals!

[SSH]

Merry Madeuppersonmas to all you skeptics out there If you get any presents I hope you refuse them on principle 

[Nacho]

Why? I celebrate the winter solstice (as YOU do, let' s remember... Apparenly every evidence we have in the bible about Christmas set it in Summer) 

There is no religious reference in my home. Receiving presents once or two per year doesn't  necesarilly have to be refused by "principles", IMO.

[Andail]

Why? I celebrate the winter solstice

So, did you have a happy winter solstice celebration on Sunday 21st, Nacho?

[vict0r]

Personally I and my family celebrate the pagan light fests and call it Christmas out of tradition. We have a tree, presents and a Christmas house, but there is nothing christian about any of it except the name

[Stupot]

Merry Madeuppersonmas to all you skeptics out there If you get any presents I hope you refuse them on principle 

To be fair, I wouldn't bother with Christmas if I could avoid it, but how bad would that make me look, everyone else exchanging gifts and pulling crackers and eating turkey, and watching crap on telly and playing Monopoly and.... hang on a minute?... what does any of this stuff have to do with Christ?.... absolutely nothing, apart from the name...

Infact, I Won't feel like too much of a hypocrite eating turkey on the 25th this year, because it's just what people do... Christ can suck my sprouts for all I care.

[Nacho]

I had to move my solstice day to 25th due "enviromental" reasons, but yes, Petter... I mentioned to Lorena and Jeremy (The only "known" people I saw that day) that the 21st was actually the solstice day and I "celebrated" it in my way.

[miguel]

Merry Christmas everybody!
I just want to apologize to all atheists, because I understand that it must be horroble for you, I mean:
apart from the gifts, the cozy sofa movies with people you love, good food and plenty of drink and a tree sitting on your living room, I agree that tonight is just one of those nights one should spend alone and not celebrating his existance in any way.
I clearly advise and remember every non-believers that this day is a pagan celebration and has nothing to do with modern civilization celebrating the birth of this guy called Jesus (maybe it is that guy from 'The Big Lebowsky', maybe not).
Do not celebrate.
Do not feel the warm look on other people faces and their joy.
Please avoid Christmas!
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Take care guys,
even you Nacho,

[SSH]

I had to move my solstice day to 25th

This just proves that Nacho thinks the universe revolves around him

[Nacho]

I thought the "Skepticism" thread was "closed" with agreement and good words for all... But it's clear (again) that there is a "side" who still wants to impose its doctrine over the other.  

It doesn't matter that one of the sides didn't wanted to carry on the discussion when the leader of the other side proves to be an old fashioned homophobe... When "we" found an argument to discuss, we (or at least I) avoided it for for the sake of peaceful coexistence. When "you" find an "argument" to go on ("Christmas brings joy!") one of you accuses the skeptics of hypocrites if they accept gifts and the other makes a completelly ironic post about us...

Well... fortunatelly I am not a Christian and I don't need to offer the other cheek! Let' s go back to the trenches!  

Christmas means nothing. The nativity myth is a mix of different pagan myths and re-fried versions of a histories written hearsay, incosnistent with each others and with the historical facts of the period. Jesus, if existed (we do not have any archaelogycal evidence of its existance, which doesn't necessarily mean he didn't exist, as the son of a carpenter was not supposed to leave archaelogycal record of its existence) was not born in December (apparently it was summer, or early Fall). The borning of Jesus has suspicios similarities with the myths of Mytra and the election of the data is to make it match with the roman festivity of Saturnus. The Xmas tree is Skandinavian. Meeting all the family is a remind of the Jewish party of the Pésaj.

Does it bring joy? Is that your point, dear believers? Well... The premiere of any new Star Wars film does it as well, and it' s not divine inspired. So, yes... I agree with you. Completelly.

Religion is something non divine inspired which inspires people as any other non-divine inspired thing does.

And we go on still having no evidence, or even a rational supossition, that anything of the supernatural stuff in the bible is real.

So, Merry Lie to you as well... I mean... Christmas.  

[miguel]

That explanation clearly says that "something" really important happened not so long ago. I mean, so many cultures, geographicaly distant and of different ages reporting the same events indicates that something Did happen.
Because you cannot explain it scientifically does not mean it does not exist.
And you must agree that there is a conjugation of free will love around the globe around this time of the year, wich is not imposed by any clever advert or fashionable propaganda, actually it's quite old and still, people get together.
Nacho, you don't study or have to be special about Jesus, you just have to feel it dude. With no attachments included.
If you were my neighbour I would invite you for tonights party, with no preatching!
See ya

[Nacho]

Ok.

If "Jesus" is "in different cultures, so geographically distant" is because something horrible, oppresive and fascist called "evangelization" happened. Your country and mine, biggest guilties.

Something non exaplained by science can happen. A supernatural claim is different. I do not have to prove you that the donkey flies. you must prove to me it does. you didn' t.

People got together before Christ. Was that "feeling" worse? Was it "false"?

And yeah... this are periods were you can feel the peace and joy everywhere... In Nigeria, Darfur, Iraq, Congo, Indonesia, Liberia...

If "God" came to touch earth with the magic stick of peace during Xmas... he is failing miserabilly.

EDIT: Just checked data of casualties in the road on this Xmas eve... 4 so far in Spain. Sad. I guess "there is a conjugation of free will love around the globe around this time of the year" is something that those 4 families won' t agree with...

[Stupot]

I have no reason to doubt that Jesus existed... but there is only one person in this world who every existed who could tell us whether or not he really was the son of God... and that's Mary.

If we are to believe the nativity story then the basis of his being named 'son of God' all boiled down to the fact that Mary claimed to be a virgin.  That's all we have.  One woman's word.

I'm more likely to believe any of the alternative, and far more plausible explanations (she had an affair, she was raped, she was too drunk to remember) but due to lack of science, all she had to do was claim she knew not why she had a baby inside her.  And what was everyone else to do but believe her.

Now, the baby is born... and everyone truly thinks he is the son of God... the bring him up telling him how special he is.  Maybe he truly believes he is, but realises at a young age that he can't do anything special despite the pressure to perform.

So he spends his younger years keeping a low profile, practising some great illusions, perhaps with the help of his mother, who is the only person who knows the truth. And one day he comes out and does all these wonderful things... things which have since been dramatized and exaggerated in the form of the Bible...  People in those days, with their lack ofscience, would have fallen for his tricks readily.

Which takes me back to the original case in this thread about 'stupidity'... the people of 2000 years ago believed what they were seeing was the son of God, because they were ignorant of the things we know today... they took his magic tricks at face value and legend turned into myth and most of the 'miracles' told of in the bible were probably just made up or based on smaller scale tricks.

Even the many so-called miracle that happen today show how 'stupid' people can be when they take things at face value.  And how they can give God credit for something they can't explain... The various statues which supposedly weep blood... religious people are extremely quick to believe what they are seeing as the work of God, but the majority of such events turn out to be hoaxes and those which aren't invariably have some other explanation.

So Christ MAY have existed.  And he certainly turned a few heads and caused a bit of a stir.  Got himself celebrity status and had various stories told about him that have been passed down through the years by those lovely people at Gideon.

But as any of today's celebrities would tell you, you can't always believe every word you read about them.

[miguel]

This post is prior to Stupots one:

You make me coming back for more, Nacho!
If people don't drink and drive or drive carelessly accidents would not happen so much, it has nothing to do with God or Jesus.
Don't expect God to fix things like road accidents. The notion that God is an entity that comes to earth and fixes things like a brocken bridge is wrong. God tells you of a path, a way to be.
Evangelization is a recent fact, Nacho. The "happenings" we are talking about are far older than that, in fact, some say they are as old as man with a brain.
People did that to Nigeria, Darfur, etc... Not God. God is not Super-Man, he is fictional.
And, please check your sources and you will find thousands of christians helping out on those regions of the world.
And if you really care, join the Red Cross.
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P.S: I am trying to drink a lot man, don't make me come back!!!