Skepticism

[kaputtnik]

Are you really going so far as to say that non-believers should be in fear of hellfire?

No, I said that believers don't. I have no idea what hell is like. Some say annihilation, some say separation from god, some say fire and brimstone, some say Milton Keynes. And I also believe that God is a god of mercy, but I also believe that believers don't need to worry about that.

Alright, so if you define hell as a personal state of mind rather than a fixed concept, I think I'll be fine with your argument. Losing your belief can lead you into trouble, everybody has a kind of belief to some extent. Even if it's only a fierce belief in the nonexistence of any god whatsoever.

In my opinion, nobody has the right to doubt or to take away this belief, as long as it is not a belief that interferes with other people or is imposed onto them. I'm not an expert when it comes to world religions, but I think that most common religions do so.

[Nacho]

Misj:

"Irrational: Not rational; unfounded or nonsensical.
an irrational decision"

So, basically... Yes.

Religion is the most irrational popular belief. If people changes and start believing more in some other irrational thing, I will start fighting against it, meanwhile...

[MrColossal]

Are you really going so far as to say that non-believers should be in fear of hellfire?

No, I said that believers don't. I have no idea what hell is like. Some say annihilation, some say separation from god, some say fire and brimstone, some say Milton Keynes. And I also believe that God is a god of mercy, but I also believe that believers don't need to worry about that.

Just curious if you've thought how you'd handle your kid being depressed or saddened if they come home one day afraid for a friend who doesn't share their belief and they are afraid will go to hell or whatever.

Not trying to start something but my roommate and friend in college told me that he gets very depressed when he thinks of all his friends that will not go to heaven and I had nothing to say that could make him feel better. The only thing that would have helped is if I converted to his religion and he believed that I was sincere in my conversion. I personally wonder how one can enjoy a heaven knowing that loved ones aren't there without just plain old getting over it like humans do when someone dies.

[kaputtnik]

Are you really going so far as to say that non-believers should be in fear of hellfire?

No, I said that believers don't. I have no idea what hell is like. Some say annihilation, some say separation from god, some say fire and brimstone, some say Milton Keynes. And I also believe that God is a god of mercy, but I also believe that believers don't need to worry about that.

Just curious if you've thought how you'd handle your kid being depressed or saddened if they come home one day afraid for a friend who doesn't share their belief and they are afraid will go to hell or whatever.

Not trying to start something but my roommate and friend in college told me that he gets very depressed when he thinks of all his friends that will not go to heaven and I had nothing to say that could make him feel better. The only thing that would have helped is if I converted to his religion and he believed that I was sincere in my conversion. I personally wonder how one can enjoy a heaven knowing that loved ones aren't there without just plain old getting over it like humans do when someone dies.

That's exactly what my girlfriend told me once: When she was very little, maybe seven or eight years old, they learned about heaven and hell in school. Now her father always told his kids at home that he did not believe in god and that he did not see any good in doing so, so she became so worried and depressed because she thought her father would go to hell someday that she had to visit a psychologist for some time to straighten this out.

[Nacho]

That's one of the big problems of Religion, too, and now I am strictly talking from the point of view of the "users".

I mean, for SSH if you are good you are saved, no matter if you believe or not (I think it's a quite sensible belief).

Some others think that, no matter how good you behave, if you don' t believe you can' t go to heaven.

Some others think that the message is that "Christ paid for our sins, so, we are forgiven".

Some people think that what Bible say is "Behave with the others as you want the others to behave with you"

So... which is the value of the Bible if any person reading it takes different conclussions?

Does it make sense to you that, after reading a flight manual, the angle of approaching to the landing track is:
12º for 3 of the guys who read the manual.
16º for 7.
01º for 12.
05º for 4.

For me, the value of that book, as a manual, would be 0.

[Ozzie]

A sensible post from Nacho, woo! Sorry for my sarcasm, but I am surprised...

Anyway, it's true that it's quite weird to how many different conclusions people come through reading the bible.
Maybe it's often too vague, outdated or just too difficult to understand for some people? Can't tell, never read much of it.
Anyway, christianity is based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ and the basic principles he preached are all about peace, selflessness and tolerance. So anyone who deviates drastically of those is morally not a christian in my opinion.

[Nacho]

<sigh>
Ps. I know enough about Quantum Physics to know that nothing is impossible (with the exception of objectivity).

In singularities and in microsmall scale. Does that mean that you can out a couple of each animal kind in a boat? No.

And Ozzie, i think you should say "A post from Nacho that is, in my opinion, sensible" From my point of view, all the post I do are sensible, otherwise I wouldn't post them ^_^.

[kaputtnik]

Most of the confusion that comes out of interpreting the bible this way and that way and finding some gospels that say this, while some letters say that, come from the way the whole thing was compiled, I guess.

How should you probably rely on a book that has been written by so many people over so many years and has undergone so many translations? It can't possibly be a source of law, or even information, it should be regarded as a compilation of stories that are maybe interesting as cultural evidence of that time, or as moral guidelines valuable at that time, but not as a kind of "law". It's just like nobody would possibly refer to 16th century law of war or law of trade anymore, and that's only some five centuries ago.

[Ozzie]

And Ozzie, i think you should say "A post from Nacho that is, in my opinion, sensible" From my point of view, all the post I do are sensible, otherwise I wouldn't post them ^_^.

Your definition of sensible certainly differs from mine then.

[Nacho]

Obvious.

[SSH]

I mean, for SSH if you are good you are saved, no matter if you believe or not

Can you read? I didn't say that.

[Tuomas]

Obviously not.

[PixelPerfect]

How should you probably rely on a book that has been written by so many people over so many years and has undergone so many translations? It can't possibly be a source of law, or even information, it should be regarded as a compilation of stories that are maybe interesting as cultural evidence of that time, or as moral guidelines valuable at that time, but not as a kind of "law".

QFT

[Nacho]

Yes, Andrew, you repeteadly said (not in this thread) that the message of the new testament is that "we are forgiven".

I can read, and I can remember.

[SSH]

Yes, Andrew, you repeteadly said (not in this thread) that the message of the new testament is that "we are forgiven".

I can read, and I can remember.

Perhaps neither, as I was saying that Christians are forgiven.

[Nacho]

Cool, so, no matter how good you were, if you were born BC, you are fucked.

So, no matter how good you are, if you are an Australian aborigen who never had contact with Christian Church, you are fucked.

Of course, if you are Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Sinthoist, Hindi... fucked.

I think that what you have in your head is not a religion, dude... It's  a private social club.

[SSH]

How you get that from "Christians are forgiven" I'm really not sure. You sure do love your extrapolation.

[Nacho]

I took it from here:

Perhaps neither, as I was saying that Christians are forgiven.

From a post written by SSH 13 minutes ago.

I explain: If you say that "We are forgiven" is not correct, and that the correct sentence is "Christians are forgiven" you are saying that "Christians, and only Christians are the only ones that are forgiven". If you said "Christians are forgiven" without correcting my "We are forgiven" you should leaving the room "I said Christians are forgiven, but I didn't mean other who are not Christians are not" opened.

But you didn't.

You specifically meant that "Christians, and only Christians are forgiven".

Maybe my confussion is that I don' t understand religion very well (That anyone can read the Bible and extrapolate from it whatever he likes doesn't help, I must say) so, I humble ask you:

Non forgived people can enter in Heaven?
Can non Christians enter in Heaven?
All christians enter in Heaven, since they are forgiven?
Isn' t unfair that an Australian aborigen can' t enter in heaven for not being Christian, and spite of having less sins that a Christian?

More questions come to my mind:
Does becoming Christian one second before of passing away count for being forgiven?
If a Christian renegates of his Chrisitianity one second before of pasing away, without time to do a sin, is he forgiven, since he was a Christian when he did the sins?

Please, answer.

[LimpingFish]

The paradox that most non-believers can't get past is the New Testament paints a God who is merciful and forgives the sins of man. Which renders the concept of Sin moot. Why fear Hell if God forgives all? How can a God who forgives all allow that which He created to suffer for sins that He himself allowed His creation to perpetrate? But if God forgives us, why fear His wrath?

If Heaven is such a great place, why bother with the Life part of our existence at all? Why torture His creations with a hundred-odd years of mental and physical anguish, before allowing them to lie in fields of Elysia? To prove a point? To who? Those who achieve this feat can't come back to tell the rest of us, and God has no-one to brag to because He is the ultimate being. He has no peers. Even Satan, His arch-nemesis, is himself part of God. Satan can corrupt Man, but God will forgive Man, which leaves Old Nick as a bit of a third wheel.

Why all the rules, then? No homos, no lust, no this, no that. Rules which came to us through the mouths of men; those easily corrupted automatons that Satan always had a eye for. Why trust those who speak of the wishes of an unknowable power, when they themselves are no closer to ultimate enlightenment than the rest of us? If all these holy men claim to follow the wishes of God, why do these wishes conflict so horrendously? I mean, either somebody is lying, or God is doing it for shits and giggles.

What does Man learn from life? And again, what use is such knowledge in the Afterlife, where concepts of memory or pain are supposedly alien?

Even as I type this post, there is a small part of me that fears God. I fear that the lies that were instilled in me by a church-controlled school system, aren't lies at all and that God will smite those I love just to prove a point. That is what we as children were told by priests, who themselves were corrupt child-rapists or closet homosexuals or secretly married or whatever. Men who paint a picture of pain and sadness in small malleable minds, with redemption contained in the robotic repetition of rhymes while you kneel before ultimate judgment. Be good, do what you're told, because if you don't...

Is it any wonder the words "shepard" and "flock" are used in the Christian and Catholic church?

All of which has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of a Supreme Being. Shit, I'd be happy as a clam if a God really did exist, and He had some salient points to relate about why he did all this. A Heaven would be a nice surprise too. To join all those people who went ahead of us, and spend eternity in bliss.

But to give credence to what some geezer in a gold hat says from on high? Baa.

[Anteater]

Non forgived people can enter in Heaven?

No. Only those who have been rendered blameless can enter.

Can non Christians enter in Heaven?

Not anymore. God chose Israel (both the man and the country) to bring forth a savior for the world. Before the savior came, people who followed the God of Israel would be saved, but the atonement  was not yet complete. When Jesus died, all those who believed -and will believe- were forgiven.

All christians enter in Heaven, since they are forgiven?

All who call on Jesus to be saved will enter. Not everybody who considers themselves to be a Christian will enter. (E.G. "I'm a Christian because my parents were", or "I believe in a god, so I'm a Christian") I actually like to avoid using labels for people, anyway.

Isn' t unfair that an Australian aborigen can' t enter in heaven for not being Christian, and spite of having less sins that a Christian?

The Australian Aborigen needs Jesus as much as anyone. We are all born with a sinful nature as a result of the fall of man.

More questions come to my mind:
Does becoming Christian one second before of passing away count for being forgiven?
If a Christian renegates of his Chrisitianity one second before of pasing away, without time to do a sin, is he forgiven, since he was a Christian when he did the sins?

Yes and maybe. The second question depends on what doctrines you accept.