Skepticism

[LimpingFish]

But it's not as simple as saying...

The only thing I want, from a believer is to recognise that they are not sure that God really exists, but it works for them.

...as this is asking a "believer" to question the very foundation of their belief. I would think that most theists would find it a big deal to even consider answering that question in any negative way. It's likening the question of their faith to a child's belief in Santa Claus.

And Boyd has a point.

[Tuomas]

In a sense yes. Though if it should happen, this thread might just keep all this shit out of real threads for a while.

[IndieBoy]

YAY a toilet!

[Nacho]

It' s another example about how "Religion" has advantages between some other beliefs. We have witnessed a similar thread like this some time ago, but in that time it was not "Religion against atheism".

It was socialdemocracy between free market.

And no one complained about how long it was, or how "direspectful" one side was being with the other for not granting the right to the other side to "believe".

Of course, three "socialdemocrats" in a row asking to the members on their side to stop, that socialdemocrats must respect the free market belief (or three free market sided guys telling the guys on its side to stop, that conservatives must respect socialdemocracy, I don' t mind) should have been unimaginable...

But of course... religion is different... three atheists in a row can tell another to stop. It' s okay. If you want me to stop, I will.

I' d wanted believers to made the same when I was 6 and asked not to be raised in a religious society, but it' s okay... I guess I will have to assume that Religion is still untouchable.

[space boy]

A shame that the word "skepticism" had to be associated with this freak show.

[LimpingFish]

Not untouchable, just not tangible. You're never going to get a satisfied answer, because both points of view are largely incompatible. You'd have a better chance questioning the virtues of Organized Religion, rather then the existence of God.

The disrespect comes into it because of the nature of the question, not because of any answer you may receive. I remember Yufster tried to start a similar discussion about Scientology, despite the fact that she basically claimed all Scientologists were idiots in her first post. One side of the argument is already on the offensive.

Religion should always be open to question, but ultimately proving or disproving the existence of God is futile. And any problems I have with Organized Religion  (and I have quite a few) have little to do with the existence of God.

A shame that the word "skepticism" had to be associated with this freak show.

Skepticism can be just as stubborn a viewpoint.

[Ghost]

man why hasn't this stupid thread been locked yet?
stop feeding the troll.

Amen!

[miguel]

Hi again guys, yes I know most of you don't want this debate to go on, but, if I am allowed, I don't mind being the troll here,

First I'll pick on what LimpingFish wrote and I agree (disrespect comes when you simple want a debate but your first post or question is not very polite) to say that this kind of debate turn into a show because everybody wants to post the coolest answers no matter what.

Second, I respect and understand what you all wrote and like to talk to you about it.

Nacho, Jurassic Park and the Bible are very different, and you know it. Comparing both may be a form of insult, not to me because I understood what you said but you are leveling yourself down when you do it.
When you read the Judas Gospel, wasn't it clear that what happened 2000 years ago is different from what you read in the Bible? For me it was very enlightening and allowed me to understand not the story, but history! I bought some more books related and found other amazing things about Christianity foundations, the creation of the church and so.
I don't want you to believe in Jesus and God, Nacho. But I don't think Nietche and his beliefs are very credible either.

Matti, yes I do believe that religion and Jesus are personal things and are different for every person.
Try not to focus on the rituals and the candles and the prayings, those are all minor aspects of it.

KhrisMuc, are you so sure that in decades/centuries from now people will be laughing about religion? History tells us that the strongest civilizations always keep some kind of divinity on their side to control the masses. It may happen and anyway, we will not be here to see. At least, Jesus never cared for that kind of stuff and so do I.

Spaceboy, who is your friend George?
Now, De Gaule was someone that got very popular around IIWorld War, and he said something like:
"Down there, when we were being bombed and shot at, every single one of us called for God".

[Nacho]

Did I say I believe in Nietsche? O_O

And Miguel... I want you to try to answer me with a short reply... If Jurassic Park touched me more, showed me more, shocked me more than the Bible, why is it an insult that I (Me, Nacho) considers it more important?

I am not saying "Jurassic Park should be more important to you than important to you than Bible". You are saying the opposite for me (Telling that I am insulting the Bible, blah, blah...). At least you are giving the Bible a better value than JP, since telling that one is more important to the other is "an insult" and telling the opposite it's "The truth".

You are doing, EXACTLY the same with my beliefs, and you know it. The thing is that, while I say, "Ok..." You say "You are insulting me!".

The final reply to that, even if you will never say it aloud, is that you (believers) think that your beliefs are better. And that, sorry, is quite annoying.

And don' t feel like a troll, my friend.  Some of these guys telling that "this discussion is shit" and blah, blah, blah, were keeping a thread at the top of gen gen for months with so interestings posts as:

"Stickam! Room: My P3n1sh" Password: Is Huge. See you there in 5 mins!"

[IndieBoy]

[Off Topic]Well you bring up a good point. This isn't the first time where moderation is gen gen is needed. So yeah where the fuck is a moderator when you need one?[/Off Topic]

[Darth Mandarb]

I'm not going to dive in to this debate but...

I don't see any reason why this should be locked.

This is an Adventure Game forum, yes.

But this is the General Discussion board and it's why it exists.

This is clearly a topic that people feel strongly about.  It hasn't (for the most part) turned to petty insults and childish quips and as such should remain unlocked (just my opinion).  The moderators are doing just fine.

Nacho and I are now going to go hang out in hell for our all our heathen's sins!!! Oh wait ... I meant Valencia

[kaputtnik]

And don' t feel like a troll, my friend.  Some of these guys telling that "this discussion is shit" and blah, blah, blah, were keeping a thread at the top of gen gen for months with so interestings posts as:

"Stickam! Room: My P3n1sh" Password: Is Huge. See you there in 5 mins!"

Although the discussion might probably have been stoned to death by now by the people who complained about it - I wanted to emphasize that I absolutely did not feel like Nacho was behaving a troll. He came off pretty rough in the beginning, but then started to discuss this important topic very objectively (unlike some other people here who - in my opinion - just wanted him off their backs).

I think there is a right to discuss religion, even if common business and small talk laws might advise against this. But this is not a business forum, nor is it a small talk forum, at least I hope so.

And, concerning Nietzsche: He did not only say "God is dead", but he also said "we have killed him".

[space boy]

"Stickam! Room: My P3n1sh" Password: Is Huge. See you there in 5 mins!"

[hindi accent]
Always aim at purifying your thoughts and everything will be well.
[/hindi accent]

*smiles and bows*

[Sylvr]

I don't understand why Stickam was brought into this.

[IndieBoy]

I don't see any reason why this should be locked.

I never said lock it. Maybe move it to popular threads

[Nacho]

Thanks for the support, Kapunttnik and Darth ^_^

Space boy, I don' t know what telling to you, because I don' t undertand what you said, but it' s ok.

And I must say that, yeah, I made the mistake of saying that what is told in Bible, if taken literally, is stupid (The belief, not the believers...) If I don' t remeber bad I changed it for "irrational" and/or "illogic" after realising of my mistake.

I don' t think I said that literalistics or not literalistics believers are stupid, though. If I did, it was a mistake, I don' t think it and I apologize, deeply, humble and sorrowed if I did. But, to be honest... I don't remeber telling people not to believe, either.

So, I am basically going to leave this die, without answers, I fear.

10 pages and all I learned is that Religions are indistinguishable from any other popular thing massively followed by humans, like Star Wars, Scientology or Star Trek, but, unlike the others, I can' t criticise it...

[Misj']

<sigh>

At the moment I consider both sides of this discussion irrational, illogical, and some other words starting with and 'i' (you may all guess which words I'm thinking of).

Fact is: what may be the most logical conclusion after weighing 'everything' to one may be illogical to another (even if they have the same 'everything' to weigh). What is well thought out to one, may be childishly naive to another. As long as people cannot understand (or comprehend) the other person's opinion, any subject is indiscussable...at least in a rational, logical, educated, understanding, and emphatic manner. This is what I observed...

So my final conclusion is this: <sigh>

Ps. I'm not here to advocate closing this thread, or not to discuss 'delicate' subjects like this.
Pps. This was in many ways a general remark concerning 'delicate' debates, and not the judgement of the people in this thread. I hope no one feels personally attacked, for that was not my intention.

[miguel]

I also apologize if my terms were not correct to any of you, specially Nacho, who I take in great consideration.
By the way, Kaputnik, did you know that Nietzsche spent the last days of his life pretending to be Jesus?

[InCreator]

This thread is way too long.

I think idea behind Christianity reminds any random national epic very much. People doing big, unbelievable things, walking through sea and so on.

What I don't buy is "meeting your homies in heaven after you die" part. My reason for skepticism...

Look--

1) Where is heaven?

* Priest in Russia points skywards and says "up there"
* Priest in Africa points skywards and says "up there"
* Pope in Vatican points... so on.

Okay.

2) Facts:

* we cannot see heaven, guess our telescopes are not up to task
* we've been in space. There's no heaven there!
... So it should be so far we cannot see it
* farthest known point in universe is something near 10-20 billion light years away (according to quick and messy google)
* since Earth is round and heaven is always directly upwards from earth's center, by logic, Heaven must be a sphere around earth, with radius of 10-20 billion light years and its center point being the center point of Earth



That puts heaven far, far away.

Now, let's assume you die and be buried.

* Your relative gets buried near you, 1 meter away.
* Both go to heaven, using this superlong vector
* Since earth is round, and offset is 1m, the vectors don't traverse to exact same point in 3d space
* At first, you will be travelling quite close

3) How far are you from each other when you finally get to heaven? It's quite simple school math to calculate the arc that comes between you...
...it'll be HUGE

4) So you've both arrived. Time to meet!

5) How do you travel in heaven? Walk? Get wings and fly?

Since walking is out of question, let's assume you fly.

6) How fast would you fly? twice walking speed? triple? Let's say 60 km/h. Really quick flying for a human...

Even at this speed, how long would it take to actually meet?
One year? Two? Trillion? Way-way-WAY longer than you lived, being good and worshipping God to get to meet your buddy?

Ain't that a bad deal or what?
.......
* anyway, this is even without considering travel time of your soul to the heaven...
* what if your relative/buddy lives on opposite side of earth?

[Matti]

Funny post, Increator, but I doubt any christians believe that heaven is a physical location somewhere..