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I have some pretty strong political ideas. It is hard for me to find a definition for them, but I tend to relate to the Socialist party more than any other.

Basically, I feel that every human being is entitled to food, shelter, health care, and other necessities of modern life. I feel that unemployment should NEVER exist; there is a job for every human. I feel that hunger should NEVER exist; there is surplus food for every starving human. I feel that the government should provide these things and more to EVERY human. I feel that each human should be able to cast his or her individual vote and have it count toward the final vote (popular vote). I feel that nearly every government decision should be made by popular vote (we have the technology to do this).

Is this Socialism? It is my Socialism. I look at Socialism and Socialist ideas and only find links to communism and failed ideas. This is not what I consider Socialism. Hitler and Stalin were no where NEAR Socialist in anything that they did. Communism is not even remotely related to Socialism (at least in the way that it is practiced in this century).

1. What do you think of Socialism?
2. What do you think my form of Socialism is?
3. If you live in a Socialist country or under a Socialist leader, what are your opinion of it?
4. What are your opinions of Socialism throughout history?
5. What are your opinions of Socialist leaders and countries in the world today?
6. Do you think Socialism could ever succeed in the future?

I ask these questions here because these forums provide a doorway into a worldwide opinion. I am currently working on a project that your replies may affect, so please try to keep things constructive. I would like to learn and always leave my opinions on Socialism open; I hope you will do the same (if not in life, at least in this thread).

later,
-junc

It's a great idea.. But as we see, a nation's welfare cannot be placed into the hands of one man.. Especially a corrupt, power-hungry one.. This is what communism is like (mostly)

And yes, we DO have the technology for everyone to vote like that.. But the question is, WILL they?

Socialism is a good idea, but takes ALOT of effort, good faith, and hope in the human race. But seeing as there's always a bad egg somewhere along the line.. I doubt socialism could ever work properly.

There's a joke that goes, "I'm okay with God, it's just his fanclub I can't stand."

I think of socialism the same way.

I like a lot of the principles of socialism. However, I find a lot of socialist activists in Western societies (mainly Australia, from my experience) are confronting to the point of being unfriendly.

I'm all for pure communism. Communism is the purest form of democracy. The only bad thing about it is that it calls for a temporary dictatorship, which usually isnt temporary.

Exactomundaly my point. Well said, DeeGee

Its a form of socialist, Im very active in politics with over 14,000 posts on the nationstates.net forums. I believe in communism, but I also have some evil thoughts such as changing wellfare laws and military benefits.

Oddly, I have those 'evil' thoughts too. ;)

QuoteBasically, I feel that every human being is entitled to food, shelter, health care, and other necessities of modern life. I feel that unemployment should NEVER exist; there is a job for every human. I feel that hunger should NEVER exist; there is surplus food for every starving human. I feel that the government should provide these things and more to EVERY human. I feel that each human should be able to cast his or her individual vote and have it count toward the final vote (popular vote). I feel that nearly every government decision should be made by popular vote (we have the technology to do this).

There are 3 kinds of unemployment:
1) Frictional unemployment - People who are in-between jobs, or recently entered the job market and have not found a job yet.  It is impossible for this type of unemployment to be eliminated, nor should it be. 

2) Cyclical Unemployment - Unemployment due to a decline in demand for labor.

3) Structural Unemployment - Unemployment due to a larger supply of workers in a given field than there is demand for, resulting in some of them to not be able to find work.

It would be impossible for unemployment to never exist.  It is a well-known government fact that unemployment must exist to a small degree between 3-6% in order to have a successful economy where most people prosper.

Also, many people choose to be unemployed.  Other people may have injuries that force them to be unemployed.  Your comment that nobody should ever be unemployed therefore seems not very intelligent or not very well thought out.

You feel that hunger should never exist also.  This may SOUND righteous, but it's not.  What it means is, you want hard-working people to pay to support the people who don't work hard.  This reduces the encouragement to work, because the money isn't going straight to themself, and they know they will still not starve if they don't work...so why work?

QuoteIs this Socialism? It is my Socialism. I look at Socialism and Socialist ideas and only find links to communism and failed ideas. This is not what I consider Socialism. Hitler and Stalin were no where NEAR Socialist in anything that they did. Communism is not even remotely related to Socialism (at least in the way that it is practiced in this century).

Is that Socialism?  Who knows, you haven't said anything about your form of government other than what you WANT.  A government is defined by the WAY IN WHICH it governs, not what the results are...so no, it's not your socialism.

Quote1. What do you think of Socialism?

Socialism is an idea borne from before the study of the economy existed.  There was little knowledge on what caused economies to function well.  The concept of Socialism, which you have failed to mention, is to have the government manage the supply of all resources.  This is an incredibly stupid idea, because the government does not have the information to do this, let alone it is a great deal of work.

Every product has a demand that is set by the society, by how much they want it.  In a free market economy, vendors will quickly notice how much people are willing to pay and adjust their prices and stock according to the market, so that whatever people want, there is enough of it to go around.

In a socialist economy, this doesn't happen.  The governemnt cannot respond as quickly to the fluctuations in demand for various products, and as a result, there will not be enough of certain products and too much of others.  So mayb you don't get bread this week, even though you worked your ass off, and waited 10 hours in a line to get it handed out to you. 

There are a lot more problems with socialism, it leads to inflation, your money becomes worthless, everyone becomes poor, nobody works hard, life sucks, socialism sucks.

Quote
1) Frictional unemployment - People who are in-between jobs, or recently entered the job market and have not found a job yet.Ã,  It is impossible for this type of unemployment to be eliminated, nor should it be.Ã, 

It has been eliminated before and didnt turn out so well





The nazis considered themselves socialists but where facists infact, Socialism is good aslong as its not liberal to the extreme

[lgm] & Evil: I believe there must be a way to integrate Democracy and Socialism in such a way that the dangers of dictatorship do not arise. This is the most major failing point of all forms of socialism, and a big reason why I won't just outright proclaiming myself a Socialist.

DGMacphee: I feel very alone in my world of Socialism. I too, hate 90% of the socialists I encounter. Revolution is often the topic in mind, often violent. Most revolution is non-violent, it is the attempt by the overthrown government to regain power which causes most violence. Most Socialists know this, yet they preach violence as a means to establishing Socialism. This is a quick way to Dictatorship in my opinion. Violent revolution will lead to a violent government.

LostTraveler: I believe that welfare in America is a corrupt and broken system. It keeps people in poverty and unemployment, often offering them more financial reward for remaining an unproductive member of society. By military benefits do you mean spending? I think the usefulness of Special Forces are really overlooked by the current generation of military top brass that served in Vietnam, where Special Forces were hated. It is amazing how 10 to 20 Special Forces men can do the same kind of damage that thousands of soldiers can do, at least politically.

QuoteYour comment that nobody should ever be unemployed therefore seems not very intelligent or not very well thought out.

Quotesocialism sucks

Are you trying to insult me!? What the heck was that? Not very constructive and not open minded at all.

Jeez. ::)

Regarding unemployment: Of course there is a period of job placement but, I don't see that as unemployment. You latched onto that a little bit too literally. There are plenty of people in America that are more than willing and skilled enough to work that do not have jobs. This is rarely due to a lack of work. There are many factors in American society that result in skilled and willing workers to go without employment. As I said, I am open with my opinions and agree that "should NEVER exist" was a bad choice of words.

Regarding hunger: This is where I start to scare people when I talk about Socialism...I go back and forth on this so don't latch onto this one either:

I believe that people that do not participate in society, through work or education, should be eliminated from society.

However, this sort of psycho thinking wouldn't matter if humans would just evolve to a point where they don't have to be so selfish and think things like: "money isn't going straight to themself". I strongly believe that we have become intelligent enough and more aware of the world around us in the past century that we could reach this point. I feel that capitalism has reinforced this type of self centered thinking.

Regarding your general statements on Socialism: This is why I have problems with Socialism. It's not rock solid. I believe that Socialism has it's place in social systems while capitalism has it's place in economic systems. Unlike every Socialist I have encountered, I do not absolutely dismiss capitalism.

I hope that you will reconsider your attacks on me (that is how I interpeted your post, perhaps you didn't mean it that way). I started this topic to learn, not preach.

later,
-junc

Hm. My opinion is that communism would be the most perfect form of civilization, if there wasn't human element that can be called "greed" of some other word representing that.

Estonia, where I live, was the first one which declared independence when Soviet Union broke, but I wasn't that small at this time, and I do rememeber even times when we were called Soviet Socialist Respublic of Estonia.

Basically, everything was alot better. In some ways. There was no hunger. Even if you didn't have any money, you were able to pick some empty bottles from street and give em away, and you got plenty of money to buy food, because it was so cheap.
Everyone had opportunity to have education. Even a dumbest guy could go to univesity if he wanted to. Luxuries like going to cinema, theatre, restaurant, vacation, eat well and so on were so cheap that everyone could afford them. And people could live well even if they worked as a janitor or some other low-payment job.

All the streets in our cities were called with glorious names, representing work, peace or names of famous people such as scientists, astronauts(cosmonauts), writers and so on. Public attitude was different. Being a good worker, honest, productive and loyal to the idea was alot more important than having a neat car or big house. Even among young people.

What I do miss about these times was soviet form of police - milita. People were AFRAID of milita. Not like on present day, where crooks laugh at police. Milita first beated you down and then asked questions, not vice versa. Rude, yes, but it worked!
Streets were alot more safe.

There was lot of propaganda and fear, and this is the worst thing about these times. If named human element wouldn't exist, there would be no need for kids singing songs at school about how great Lenin was or any other of brain-washing all of the time. People would follow the idea by them own, without need to remember them that they must follow the party and ideology and so on. This is why such good things won't work.
And this is sad.

I met a girl from Romania last summer. Her family left Romania because her father couldn't find work. He had a steady job under the Communist government and they were rather well off. He is now a city bus driver in Columbus, Ohio (not the best paying or funnest job in the world).

Another thing she told me. In Romania she used to eat whatever she wanted, never worried about diet. Within a month of living in America and eating the same things she gained a lot of weight. We load our vegetables and, well everything, with so many preservatives and what not. It's really annoying to hear things like that. We are so bloated and stuck in how we do things that we don't consider our health, environment, or future.

I always tend to hear stories like this from Republics of the Soviet Union. I wonder if it was just republics that have citizens that feel that way.

The Romanian girl said she would prefer to live in Romania under Communism to living in America or a Romania as it is today. Would you or your family?

later,
-junc

Ah, and I just remembered - It's absolutely horrible how american movies and media present Russia or Communism, especially ones made during cold war. Even games today. Hitman 2? Ghost Recon? Even weather! All missions in Moscow show it as a cold, snowy place. So stupid. At the summer there is 30 degrees of Celsius and they always try toÃ,  show how cold and shitty place this is. Ack. And language. Like - I saw "Sum of All Fears" recently. They have an actor playing Russian president there - but his accent is so bad that no real russian could understand what the hell he's talking! I speak a little russian, so I know. Some other actors, in absolutely non-important roles talk alot better. Actually, I can't think of an american movie, where russian language is really real. Like, okay with this russia thing, but same goes for socialism, communism and whatsoever.

Hopefully my mentioning them won't clue them in to this thread but that's what my point with the Newsbots was...

The human element as increator puts it ruins so many good ideas. Lying, cheating, stealing, oppressing, envying, and various other words that end in ing...

I don't mean this as a joke or being silly but man, I wish the earth had a not insane AM controling it.

And when you ask if I think socialism could ever work you mean on a country based scale?

Because socialism is working in places around the world just on small scales. Even anarchy is working but again, small scale, around a hundred people. So do I think socialism can work on a grand scale? Not with the current human intelligence. And intelligence isn't what i really mean... But I'm sure you understand what I mean. I don't mean since the majority of working class people don't understand quantum mechanics that socialism doesn't work I mean while people are still so afraid and so back stabbing and so out for themselves.

edit for increator's last comment: i think we've been over this before, you hated Armageddon. Well, it's just a crap movie and in games a lot of the time they don't portray the US as such a great place. Max Payne springing to mind. Maybe you should make a game that highlights the positives or the actual view of Russia. [my friend Zak spent a semester in Russia and he said it was great that they salted bread for his welcoming and the ladies were pretty, and there was a store front that had a large samurai statue attacking a praying mantis that was attacking a city... Please focus on that aspect! hehe]

Quote from: juncmodule on Thu 27/05/2004 05:08:17
DGMacphee: I feel very alone in my world of Socialism. I too, hate 90% of the socialists I encounter. Revolution is often the topic in mind, often violent. Most revolution is non-violent, it is the attempt by the overthrown government to regain power which causes most violence. Most Socialists know this, yet they preach violence as a means to establishing Socialism. This is a quick way to Dictatorship in my opinion. Violent revolution will lead to a violent government.

I also find that most socialists in Western societies are pretentious, angsty kids fresh out of high school who develop an overly-moral social conscience and immediately identify with socialism.

Even though they have no real understanding of how socialism and communism work.

QuoteThe human element as increator puts it ruins so many good ideas. Lying, cheating, stealing, oppressing, envying, and various other words that end in ing...

It's not that the human element ruins good ideas, its that the idea just isnt a good one if it doesn't work with the human element.  The attributes you listed are found within all of us.  And I should assume anyone designing a form of government would first assume that most citizens are greedy, lazy, and willing to believe anything that feels good to believe.

What I did mean, was that maybe we're not ready or even not made to accomplish living in such form of society. Like most Christians fail to live exactly by Ten Commands and million other examples like that. I we hadn't crimes, we would't need police. Police is an instance invented while taking human weaknesses into account, and even FOR it. Socialism seems to be not, it's just based on the idea that everyone works as a team and accepts to be equal. And whenever majority fails to this idea, system starts to break down.

Just a few ideas about socialism I get in my Machroeconomy classes...

Socialism is cool as a concept, a divine concept that is spoiled by the evil human elements.

In a perfect world socialism should be a guarantee of work and shelter, but in the real work socialism is a guarantee of not incentivating those who want to create, and a guarantee for the lazy masses of putting not great effort in what they're doing.

We all know statal workers... Are they enthusiasthic? Here in Spain, an employee working for the government is the worst worker you can face, they're not nice, they're slow and inneficient. The threat of firing a worker must be there, and it is in a normal enterprise, but civil servants are not very likely to be fired.  Also, the promotion is not something that incetivates them, because we know that the "human element" make that promotions in government employments are not decided by merits.

Socialism fails in a basic concept... We, human beings, are not the same. People must have freddom to decide which carrer want to study or which work apply for. Being directed by a central power is the most far away thing of pure democracy, specially because this central power falls into corruption and becames the new group of powerfull people (just what we wanted to avoid... In the US, the evil were the rich people, in USSR, the evil are the members of "the Party".

Socialsm fails in other basic concept... It's not simple. Controlling if what a central source of decission is saying to be done is impossible, and if done, so many steps are needed that the system falls into corruption[/human element].

BTW... We mustn't be genious to know all this... we just must take a look to USSR.

BTW, total liberalism has also its problems, but it is not what it's being discussed here (Another thread?), so, the basic concept must be "democracy" so, we, the people, will be able to decide if our country needs a right or left politic.

I think socialism is a great concept, but - as seems to be the general opinion - I don't think it would work. By very nature, people are deceptive and dishonest, and always look out for themselves. It would be hard to enforce a law that said "sacrifice your money to poor people in africa you've never met before". People would be angry. We want things for ourselves, and unless we benefit out of a generous action too, we are unlikely to do it.


What increator said is an extremely good point. Not one Christian human has ever managed to abide the ten commandments completely. How much less would the morally corrupt? How do you control them? Well - naturally you'd create some sort of police force to watch over them, but then that doesn't really fit the strict definition of Socialism.

And I think some people BENEFIT from being jobless. I know of alcoholics that have transformed their lives because they don't have a job and therefore can afford little more than pepsi or water; gamblers who stopped because they just didn't have the money to feed their addiction; druggos that came clean because they couldn't pay for the heroine etc etc. I think employment is a wonderful thing, but for some people it just gives them a reason to blow their money on things that will kill them, and sometimes others.

I know there's no such thing as the perfect government, but I think a world run by an AM - as eric said - would be a whole lot better.

I think it's important to note that an awful lot of terrible things have happened under grossly distorted and failing communist economies.

However, the same things happen under capitalist economies when they're functioning correctly!

And Stuh505, lets not forget that socialism was originally thought of as a stage of transition between capitalism and communism, not a permanent state.

So, who wants to talk about materialism? Yay!

Hm, interesting topic - As I am pretty much a "lefty" I can identify with socialism a lot, and I definately agree with it's main principles, in the way Marx wrote it.
Then on the other hand, I don't consider people like Stalin or Mao as "real" communists either, as one of the main things with communism is that all people should be on an equal basis. And as we all know, neither Stalin nor Mao were exactly on the same level as their people... They were dictators, no better than the likes of Hitler or Mussolini.Ã, 

What I think is the main problem, is that far too many just blindly trusting the ideals that other people have written down. Ironically, I think that Marx himself said it best:
"All I know is that I'm not a Marxist..." & "Question everything."
Ã, 

Im a democract, and a left-leaning person. I agree with some of the principals of socialism, such as every person deserving teh rights of health care, a job, etc.
That being said, I dont think socialism can work on a large scale...and I dont really want it to.

I have a right to be able to find a job, or earn the skills to get a job, should I need one.
I also have the right to pick my vocation, my school, or even if I want to have a job. There are consequences of not having a job on purpose, such as not having any money, but thats a choice I claim I can make.

I have the right to vote out my leaders if I dont like 'em...or not vote at all. Im not sure if every choice should be made by popular vote. I think our system works pretty well...and...I know this sounds really horrible, but a lot of people in america are dumb, and there are some evil people in political power. it would be way easy to take advantage

One of my creedos is to "work hard, play hard, and give something back", and thats how I think out goverments should be based. We all work hard for the system, play hard in the system, and give and get back from the system. We cant all put the same amount back...to use a columbus allusion here junc, you cant expect people living in walnut ridge to pay the same amount or give the same amout as people who live in dublin or pickerington. its just important that you give something back...volenteer, help the elderly, etc. If we all give back, we can have a mini-socalism in Ameica, without the negitive side effects, such as mass state control and loss of personal liberty, which is our most important gift.

(http://www.fbc-bettendorf.com/evil/crap/evil_stalin_shirt.gif)
... Anybody else think I look like Phil Reed in that picture?

One thing about The human element some of you have previously talked about:

Here in Spain if there were not barriers at the underground the people will get into the subway without buying the ticket for sure.

When I was in Prague there were no barriers at the underground but the people there bought the ticket because they were educated that way (They do it as a natural thing). The ticket inspectors only ask the tourists because they know local citiziens are acting correctly.

So I think all of this is a problem of education, if you are educated in an egoist (or capitalist) system It's hard to understand any other behaviour. And considering that capitalism is very powerful worldwide, is't very difficult for alternative sistems to survive.

Probably you won't understand how a massai could be happy without a car the same way he won't understand how are you happy without a cow.

That's indeed a good point Pau... I was thinking in my friend Petter Ljvnqu Andail last day, in Sweden, and in left-leaning people (I've never asked him, but I think he's most left than right  ;))... just when I was abandoning that thoughts I read an article about macroecony in Sweden and the other Scandinavian countries, and the social movements that were going on there impressed me. Sorry for being unable to quote exactly how was the report, but some of the data amazed me.

Then I realised that we can't compare being left-leaning here, in Spain (Where, unluckily, socialism would never work, IMO) and in some other places where they've been breed with another beliefs.

I could be socialist in Sweden, but being Spanish, I chose a conservative managing system for the economy.

Let me put an example of how things would work differently in Sweden and Spain.

We have a plan here in the South... In Andalucia, for incentivating the work in the agriculture, a sum of money will be payed for you during all the year if you show that you've worked just 40 days in agriculture.

What do the spanish people? They falsificate documents to proven to the goverment that people has been working that 40 days, while the real person working there has been an ilegal inmigrant. The worst of all is that the local government can't stop that because that would be terrible impopular, they just pretend not to see it because they like that bag of votes.

And that is allowed by the local socialist government.

I couldn't be socialist knowing that in Andalucia, they're buying votes with the money of the rest of Spain.

But that would never happen in Sweden, IMO.

As Pau said, different educations.

One of the biggest problems in this situation is the fact that Spain is too big. To follow your Macroeconomics with a bit of Microeconomics, the bigger state only produces diseconomies of scale.

take a look at this http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0778562.html.

It's the list of the highest ranked nations on the Human Development Index as of 2003, the UN measure that includes life expectancy, education etc. Nations ranked 1, 2, 3, 6 and 10 all have populations of 10 million or less [give or take 200 000 in the case of Belgium].

4 and 5 have 20 million or less.

Canada has 30 million, which means that there are only two large states in the mix, both of whom have been the greatest economies of the past century. [however both have large problems in their economic structures that are causing big problems]

There are another 7 countries of 10 million and below in the next 15.

Any kind of management is simpler on a smaller scale, and if governments are meant to increase standards of living, their management in smaller countries certainly seems easier.

your socialism wouldn't change a single thing. I can't believe states can become somehow "better" by reforming them. There would be still authority that would supress the people living in this state.

As you can see I'm a libertarian. I'm not a right wing libertarian - I'm very much into libertarian communism or anarchosyndicalism. I can't stand any form of authoritarian behave.

here's a good website with general information about anarchosyndicalism: http://www.anarchosyndicalism.net/as.php
And an other one, but only in german language: http://www.anarchismus.at

You can also find adresses of local anarchist/syndicalist or localist groups on these websites.

;)

Quote from: stuh505 on Thu 27/05/2004 04:29:01
You feel that hunger should never exist also.Ã,  This may SOUND righteous, but it's not.Ã,  What it means is, you want hard-working people to pay to support the people who don't work hard.Ã,  This reduces the encouragement to work, because the money isn't going straight to themself, and they know they will still not starve if they don't work...so why work?

Yeah, those lazy paraplegics, why don't they get up and do something? Anyway, the incentive problem always occurs if benefits are at all means-tested. The only way to avoid this is to have universal benefits (or none at all). ie. Everyone pays a lot more tax, but then everyone gets a handout of the money required to meet basic human needs. Any extra they can earn is thus on top of the handout and doesn't reduce it in any way. Hoever, this system requires a lot more taxation than most places have.

Quote
There are a lot more problems with socialism, it leads to inflation, your money becomes worthless, everyone becomes poor, nobody works hard, life sucks, socialism sucks.

Not with universal benefits.


On the other hand, libertarianism has its virtues as well, but it does rely rather too much on the generosity of people, which as has been established with communist practice in the 20th century DOESN'T WORK.

Quote

That's a good point, however an equal socio-communist system need not necessarily rely upon generosity. If the world's wealth was shared equally the vast majority of individuals would benefit.

Two things always come up when I mention the world Socialism:

1. Communism
2. Lack of faith in humanity

Basically, I guess it's time I re-evaluate the way I present my argument for Socialism. So here is another try.

As I said, I believe that Socialism should be used in social programs while capitalism is used in economic programs. As a few people pointed out, when you have a large populatoin, Socialism is doomed.

Oppression is a constant concern of mine regarding Socialism. I think so many people around the world are unaware about the oppression that occurs right in front of them. In America we are led to believe that we have certain freedoms. Namely, Freedom of Speech. This is a myth, it is impossible to have freedom of speech, you are always going to offend someone. So, we have Limited Freedom of Speech. I have no problem with this, but I'd rather hear it like it is than get pumped full of American propaganda. American's think that they are freer than any other nation in the world and that there is no better place to live in the world. I often hear the "If you don't like it here go move to ______" (whatever country we are invading at the moment). Wrong again. Why should I just sit around and be content!? Why should anyone? What's the point of having freedoms if you don't use them? America is not perfect; nowhere in the world is perfect. Humans should strive to make every place they live in closer to perfect (perfect is a bad choice of words, but I hope you get the point).

My point is, that many people are oppressed by the very freedom that is meant to set them free.

I see very little wrong with the American system. It's just too bad that we have strayed so far from it that it is no longer recognizable.

I still stand by a popular vote. Any other vote is not a vote by the people. Oh, and just because someone is dumb, doesn't mean that they don't have the right to vote.

I still stand by a free national health care system; anything else should be considered human rights abuses by our country. We have the means to implement a national health care system yet so many people are unable to receive even basic healthcare (first person to bring up free clinics as a defense in America has to pull out one tooth with a hammer and some kite string).

Housing. Every day I see abandoned building after abandoned building. They sit for years. Yet, all around there is homelessness, evictions, etc. Once again, we have the ability why not use it. I think everyone is entitled to a home. My only problem here is "section 8" housing, I don't want to create a mirror of that situation (for those not from America, section 8 housing is cheap government assisted housing that African Americans were herded into (in the 70's & 80's?), kind of in Nazi ghetto style, which is responsible for "livin' in the ghetto", being a term associated with living in a all black neighborhood. Then of course no one maintains the housing and it falls to shit. Also these areas were built when discrimination was much more rampant in America. African Americans had difficulty finding decent jobs and ended up living in section 8 housing. Only recently have African Americans begun to be able to stand on slightly more equal footing, however this is largely due in part to American racism being shifted to Mexicans).

I think that business also needs to be reevaluated. America needs to concentrate more on producing goods for itself. We need renewable resources and jobs at home. Business need to be removed from government and made less private. Once a business reaches a certain value it should be subject to more strict laws, forcing it to mainly just open it's doors. Records and operations should be more a matter of public record. I strongly oppose government owned business (a huge misconception in my mind of what Socialism is, I've seen many dictionaries and heard many people define it this way. As a basic definition I interpret Socialism as an "economic theory or system in which production should be for the public good rather than private profit").

I'm shocked that so many people just shoot down Socialism. Granted, as a stand-alone government I agree that it would fail. As a way to describe my belief system, I think Socialism is a good word. I am deeply saddened by the prevailing lack of faith in humanity. It do not think that all people are greedy and evil. Pau made such a great point; it's all a matter of education. Capitalism and greed walk hand in hand, until we de-emphasize capitalism in our system we will remain greedy.

Sorry for the American slant on this, I hope you can apply it to your own countries, or at least relate somehow. Obviously, America has screwed with my mind ;D

later,
-junc

Quote from: juncmodule on Thu 27/05/2004 03:02:23
Basically, I feel that every human being is entitled to food, shelter, health care, and other necessities of modern life. I feel that unemployment should NEVER exist; there is a job for every human. I feel that hunger should NEVER exist; there is surplus food for every starving human. I feel that the government should provide these things and more to EVERY human. I feel that each human should be able to cast his or her individual vote and have it count toward the final vote (popular vote). I feel that nearly every government decision should be made by popular vote (we have the technology to do this).

I am against socialism. I am a firm believe that a person's quality of life should be a direct result of his effort in it. Of course, I too believe that every man should have the basic needs of life, but unlike you said, not an inch more (of course, I don't mean people who are disabled and cannot work etc.).
I live in Israel, a state that was founded in the 40s by Russian immigrants. So, naturally, Israel was constructed on socialist principles. MAPAI, the biggest political party in Israel until the end of the 70s (what later became the Labour) was a socialist party. And so, till this day, our economy has a socialist character. So, the welfare rates here are extremely high (despite the media's constant attempts to present it otherwise). And as if the ones who are really unemployed are not enough, this has lead to a massive exploitation of the system. Thus, My parents, nicely paid programmers with a cottage, 2 cars and a cute dog, give away 60% of their wages. 60 fucking percent! If you ask me, it is outrageous. The Israeli people have taken the Robin Hood view - all the rich are evil, all the poor are so because of the rich. Well, let me tell you a little secret. There is an excellent reason poor men are poor - they did not study hard enough, work hard enough and try hard enough. Why the fuck should they get something? And yet, my father who works 12 hours a day has not just to feed them, but to also buy them a DVD player.
Furthermore, people in Israel do not look on the rich as role models, but as hate symbols. They despise them. Sheri Arisson, the wealthiest person in Israel, moved to Miami because of disgraceful treatment by the press. People on the street blame the rich for their problems. This is wrong, educationally and morally.
Luckily, the current Minister of Economy is Benjamin Netanyahu, one of the few efficient men in the Knesset. He has come up with a new plan to fix the crumbling Israeli economy, and we already see some of its early effects. Hopefully, we are on the way to a better future.

Quote from: InCreator on Thu 27/05/2004 06:33:42
Basically, everything was a lot better. In some ways. There was no hunger. Even if you didn't have any money, you were able to pick some empty bottles from street and give em away, and you got plenty of money to buy food, because it was so cheap.
Everyone had opportunity to have education. Even a dumbest guy could go to univesity if he wanted to. Luxuries like going to cinema, theatre, restaurant, vacation, eat well and so on were so cheap that everyone could afford them. And people could live well even if they worked as a janitor or some other low-payment job.

Allow me to give the second view from the former Soviet Union. I was born in Dnepropetrovsk, today's Ukraine. My parents, who worked just as much then as they do now, got along well. We had all the basic necessities. But we lived in a small apartment. We didn't have a car. Our furniture was old. Luxury? Nowhere in sight.
And then we moved to Israel, with 150$ in the pocket. In 10 years, my parents were able to buy a 300,000$+ house, despite the nature of the Israeli economy. Back there, such a thing is no more than an illusion.

okay, i'm just passing through this thread, but do you know the saying from communism times?

Everybody is equal, but some are more equal than others.

Hope it helps  ;)

Heh, you got that from the Animal farm (a book), didn't you.

Djeco bit ce jos -Orson

Quote from: Czar on Fri 28/05/2004 22:33:19
do you know the saying from communism times?

Everybody is equal, but some are more equal than others.

I think it was "Death to the Czar!" actually.

For clarification, Sweden (formerly # 1 on the UN-chart of most "liveable" countries, currently # 3) is not a socialism, it's a social democracy.
So don't get any weird ideas that our state controls everything we do, or whatnot.

In fact Sweden has a rather high level of free enterprise (companies like Ericsson, Volvo,  IKEA, H&M and Saab were all founded in Sweden), and is the third biggest music exporting nation in the world - not bad for a country with nine million inhabitants!

A socialism would not likely be able to show up such figures.

So my being "leftist" is not necessarily a product of my upbringing and social environment; there are very strong liberal forces in Sweden due to our high amount of self employment etc.

I could also add that Sweden is hastily deteriorating, our crime is increasing, the standard of living is decreasing, and we're moving closer to the american way of living.

Barcik: "buy a 300,000$+ house" ...WHAT!?!? And you are crying about WHAT!? Please tell me that the israeli dollar is worth an American penny or something. You cannot possibly be complaining about your way of life and live in a $300,000 home. If you don't like paying so much in taxes, sell the house and move. This is the reason why I lean towards socialism so much. People that live excessively complaining about people that didn't "study hard enough, work hard enough and try hard enough". That's such bullshit. Some people are just smarter than others. If you work a crap job and that's all you can get then you shouldn't be punished for that. Some of us do not have the opportunities that maybe you do.

Try this on Barcik: Growing up in the Flint Michigan there was only one way to succedde. Work in the factory. I went to a very rough high school and saw every one of my freinds beaten up because of the color of their skin. I am a little guy and was harrased but, somehow managed to avoid getting hurt too bad. I dropped out of high school and later got my GED (a dumb man's diploma in America). I was told that a GED is useless. I didn't know what to do. I wanted to go to college but my parents wouldn't help me. I was stuck. Factories were closing so that option was running dry. I talked to an army recruiter for a while until I realized I just couldn't do that. So, I got a job at McDonald's. I worked my ass off, and got NOTHING for it. Finally, while at a bar one night I met a guy that offered for me to travel to Columbus, Ohio with him. He was going to medical school. I went along, having known the guy for about 3 weeks. I ended up in a new city without family or friends. The guy I moved to Columbus with got his girlfriend pregnant and ended up moving back to Flint (by the way he was in medical school and dropped out to work in a pizza shop). I stayed. Only through the generosity of a few people did I manage to pull it together. I spent some time homeless, got another job at McDonald's and lived in someones basement. Finally, I began to learn about student loans. People told me I could go to school for free! No advisors in school ever said anything about it, my parents never said anything about it, why hadn't anyone told me about school loans!? So, now, my life has slowly come back together over the past 7 or 8 years. I am in school and working at a cafe as a cook. I have tried many different ways to make enough money to buy a house, car and all that (truck driving being one big mistake). But, here I am, 29 years old and in college with a bunch of 18 year olds. It sucks. If something happens, like my girlfriend getting pregnant, I will have to leave school and work some shit job. I DO NOT have the opportunities that some people have. I did not grow up in a $300,000 dollar house. I have worked hard and struggled all of my life. I'm not the smartest guy in the world. But, guess what Barcik, I still deserve to have a roof over my head, to have medical insurance, and live a decent life.

Andail: Hmmm...you are one of those people I was hoping would post in this thread. That is enlightning to say the least. What is a Social Democracy? Is that what is failing, or is the move closer to capitalism causing deteriorating conditions?

later,
-junc

As far as socialism goes it's a nice idea, but frankly it just wouldn't work.

I think everyone is entitled to the RIGHT to have food, clothes, and shelter. But it is up to them to do something about it. I am not going to college to help someone I couldn't give two shits about. If they're poor by their own will, let them be so. If, however, someone is unfairly poor due to something like racism...I'm all for people helping them out. One thing, though. No one should ever be forced to "give" their money for a "greater" cause. If people want to donate their money to the poor, they should. But if I worked for my money, my clothing, my shelter...and really have no wish to help the poor, I shouldn't have to do so.

Are my views selfish? Shouldn't I be entitled to everythign I work for? Let it be up to me, whether I want to donate money money or not. Don't demand it of me. It's not yours to demand.

That said, I do donate money, but I do so of my own free will. And to causes I find worthy. I truly wish people could all have work, money, shelter, and clothing. I have no ill wishes on anyone. But I, nor anyone else, shouldn't be commaned to be responsible for other's welfare.

-MillsJROSS

This seems to be the prevailing arguement, so let me address a few things.

You don't think you should pay out money to people that you don't "give two shits about"

Actually, I agree.

Problem is we both ALREADY DO.

We pay taxes to support a bloated government and military. We pay for vacations to the bahamas for politicians, jets, limos, etc. (Regardless of what country you live in you pay taxes).

I just think that we don't get enough in return. For example, about 10 years ago Canadians paid $5 for a pack of cigarettes, this is because they get national health care. It is paid for by taxes of cigarettes. Do you know what my American smoking family said to this: "I'm not paying $5 for a pack of cigarettes!". My girlfriend pays $3.15 for a pack of smokes. Twice as much as the cost 10 years ago. Yet, we STILL don't have a national health care system in America.

By the way, Barick, I do think that 60% is insane. If that much is taken away you should already have socialist programs and more. You should deffinately live in a more peaceful country. I agree that your government is failing you and that your family is treated unfairly, I just don't agree with the way you present the arguement.

I don't want to see what you or anyone work for get taken away. I just want to see it used more wisely. We pay (the world's citizens) insane amounts of taxes. These things should be provided to us in compensation for our tax dollars. I don't think taxes should be raised or changed. I think some politicians should be forced to go from meeting to meeting in Yugos, go on vacation in New Jersey, and take the bus. ;D

Citizens shouldn't sacrifice, politicians, the government should.

later,
-junc

Quote from: juncmodule on Sat 29/05/2004 17:42:20
Barcik: "buy a 300,000$+ house" ...WHAT!?!? And you are crying about WHAT!? Please tell me that the israeli dollar is worth an American penny or something. You cannot possibly be complaining about your way of life and live in a $300,000 home.

I am very much in rush here, so I'll reply to the rest later.

Will you be satisfied when you write a test worthy of an A+ and receive an A-? My parents are not poor, but hell, they deserve more.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that so generally. You not only the right to, but should complain about your way of life. No one should be satisfied with their way of life, or the way of life of others around them. The world is not a nice place and if we just sat back and said "it's better than that other place" then how would good ever come of anything. Like I said (perhaps you didn't have time to read the other post) I just don't agree with your presentation.

I see Socialism as more of an idea to strive for. Sure, it doesn't work and some of the ideas are flawed, but why not strive to come close to eliminating problems in the world? If we make it half way to the ideas that I strive for then we will be doing pretty good. Socialism just presents a better vehicle than anything else I have ever found for those ideas. If someone could present something better then I would consider it. But, so far, no one has.

later,
-junc

Quote from: juncmodule on Sat 29/05/2004 17:42:20
Try this on Barcik: Growing up in the Flint Michigan there was only one way to succedde. Work in the factory. I went to a very rough high school and saw every one of my freinds beaten up because of the color of their skin. I am a little guy and was harrased but, somehow managed to avoid getting hurt too bad. I dropped out of high school and later got my GED (a dumb man's diploma in America). I was told that a GED is useless. I didn't know what to do. I wanted to go to college but my parents wouldn't help me. I was stuck. Factories were closing so that option was running dry. I talked to an army recruiter for a while until I realized I just couldn't do that. So, I got a job at McDonald's. I worked my ass off, and got NOTHING for it. Finally, while at a bar one night I met a guy that offered for me to travel to Columbus, Ohio with him. He was going to medical school. I went along, having known the guy for about 3 weeks. I ended up in a new city without family or friends. The guy I moved to Columbus with got his girlfriend pregnant and ended up moving back to Flint (by the way he was in medical school and dropped out to work in a pizza shop). I stayed. Only through the generosity of a few people did I manage to pull it together. I spent some time homeless, got another job at McDonald's and lived in someones basement. Finally, I began to learn about student loans. People told me I could go to school for free! No advisors in school ever said anything about it, my parents never said anything about it, why hadn't anyone told me about school loans!? So, now, my life has slowly come back together over the past 7 or 8 years. I am in school and working at a cafe as a cook. I have tried many different ways to make enough money to buy a house, car and all that (truck driving being one big mistake). But, here I am, 29 years old and in college with a bunch of 18 year olds. It sucks. If something happens, like my girlfriend getting pregnant, I will have to leave school and work some shit job. I DO NOT have the opportunities that some people have. I did not grow up in a $300,000 dollar house. I have worked hard and struggled all of my life. I'm not the smartest guy in the world. But, guess what Barcik, I still deserve to have a roof over my head, to have medical insurance, and live a decent life.

In my naive little world, everybody has a chance. Personally, I believe there isn't one person in the world who just can't succeed (and by that, I mean the whole jackpot). However, without a doubt, for some people the conditions are more difficult. Your road to potential success is harder than mine. And yet, both you and I can be the next Bill Gates.
And, as I said, everybody deserves the basic needs of life.

Junc, you said earlier that almost all choices should be made by popular vote, and just because a person is dumb doesnt mean they shouldnt vote. I hope I am correct in my understanding of this.
Have you ever been to a session of the Ohio Senate? The statehouse isnt too far from the OSU main campus if I remember. I was there last week shadowing sen.Goodwin, to see if I wanted to be a politician when I grow up. I sat in on one of those sessions.
Im a student of goverement. I read more then 1 paper a day, and read as much as I can about everything. i think, even tho Im only 17, I have a better understanding about Ohio's goverment the joe junchbox.
I didnt have a freakin clue what most of those guys are talking about. Quick, Junc, what should we do about bill 214 tax bill? Most of these bills the public never even hears about. its just too complicated.
Most people can barely become informed enough to make a good choice for the presidental election, and they get an entire year head start. It asks too much of everybody to learn the details of every single little bill so they can vote on it. it would almost require every citizen to have at least a B.D. in policital science. it just isnt practical.

every citizen should vote. but, it isnt a good idea to have everybody vote on everything. the system we have going on here seems to work ok.

I hope I havent read your posts wrong.

Panda, don't you think there is something fundamentally flawed with your point?

I agree with you completely, sort of.

We don't know enough to make those decisions on bill "214". But THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Some bill is being passed that will affect our lives yet we know nothing about it. Why? Because the news is filled with "somebody died", "something burned", and "look over there stupid person!" instead of "the Senate passed law 214 today, law 214 was about...blah, blah, blah."

There are many of us that are not only intelligent, but fairly well informed, that don't know what's going on in our own backyard. It is buried in legal speak. I'm willing to bet if you put bill 214 in front of me I STILL wouldn't be able to understand it.

You shouldn't need a degree in anything to understand a simple law.

That is why I feel that the government is bloated. We are passing laws everyday. Laws about what!? Do you get an update? No, because you aren't supposed to know about these laws, because you are supposed to be dumb. Which is what the government wants you to be. At least "dumb" of what is going on at your local Senate.

Americans really need to smarten up. It's all a matter of "programming". If we are fed knowledge we gain knowledge. For some it may take longer than others. I guess my point is that dumb people are only dumb because they are uneducated. If you educate them properly...well, you get the point.

later,
-junc

This is what's called Representative Democracy, and it works well because most of the people really don't care about 99% of the laws and decisions that are made by government. You vote for the candidate that most agrees with your ideals, and rely on them to represent your opinions.

I do like junc's idea of allowing everyone to vote on everything, if they want to. I should have the right on every bill that goes through parliament, to decide to withdraw my vote from my MP, and cast it myself.
Of course, the costs of administering a public vote like this would be enourmous, but with the emergence of the internet it could well soon be possible to allow this.

QuoteI should have the right on every bill that goes through parliament, to decide to withdraw my vote from my MP, and cast it myself.

I REALLY like that idea!

Yeah, a lot of my ideas rely heavily on technology. I think that technology really paves the way for a lot of Socialist programs that have failed in the past.

I would also like to note to everyone: This thread has really influenced my opinions on Socialism. I just want to thank everyone for responding and helping. I still don't know where my political loyalty stands, but I do know that I'm not 100% Socialist. Which perhaps leaves me more confused than when I started the thread :-\

later,
-junc

ok junc, now we're getting somewhere.
I like what you are saying, and I agree with most of it.  A lot of the laws passed everyday really arent important at all, or wont go into effect. senators use these to pad their bill count, so it looks like they have done more then they have. However, a lot of politics IS complicated, and not everything can be simplified for a region as large and diverse as Ohio.
Your idea would work great on a local level, or maybe even a small state. but there really is too much activity going on in our state, or the country, to do it.

You are right. people should know. It makes me very upset when our citizens cant be bothered to turn off NASCAR for a second, and pick up a newspaper.

Quotebut there really is too much activity going on in our state, or the country, to do it.

That's why Chris's suggestion is so beautiful. Government could run just as it does, but each citizen could have the right to interact and vote on whatever laws they choose.

I think the complexity thing is just to keep your average Joe out of politics. It's really not that complicated, or at least it doesn't need to be. The complication is the reason there are so many problems with the government in the first place. Of course by opening it up to the public in such a way politicians could attempt to make it even more complex, so there would have to be legislation to force any bills passed to remain fairly simple.

Complexity in bills and spenditure is how you end up with $50 toilet seats in the pentagon, golf courses, and whatever built into bills. We have been brainwashed into thinking that it is such a hard job and that there is so much going on.

later,
-junc