http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/space/11/05/space.elevator/index.html
Found this quite interesting while reading CNN's site. Doubt it will ever happen, but could you imagine the ride though?
Space could be just one button away.
If you like that, you'll probably love this (http://www.physorg.com/news176545232.html).
I find this fascinating and would be first in line to ride it!
I read an article on the space elevator idea in SciAm a while ago, and it certainly seems interesting.
About whether it could be done or not, I think it probably could, but who cares?
Sounds like an awesome idea, but I doubt it would be of much consequence to most people...
Having not been into space myself(I live in a very cluttered world :P), I have no idea what it would be like travelling in such a thing...
Am I missing something here, why do things like Mir, and this if it ever happened - never get hit by rogue meteorites?
The space lift would certainly be neat! James May did a little piece on some companies trying to build prototypes which is interesting to watch too. But gigantic tethers, flimsy ones - or rigid structures even - wouldn't exactly look great sticking out the side of the earth. Great idea as the space lift is, I can't exactly see Obama being too thrilled about it and fund it especially after recently questioning if NASA is going in the 'right' direction.
Mods, space... is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindboggingly big it is...
That having been said, the chances of a meteorite hitting such a small, tiny object are pretty small. And if they did detect such an incoming object, I'm sure they could move well out of the way in time., or have some sort of countermeasures.
I think Mods is referring to the tiny (undetectable) meteorites that are [I think] a much larger threat than NASA necessarily wants the general public to know. The kind that would travel through the space shuttle (possibly destroying it) with ease.
As for the space elevator ... I think any politician (who makes the budget decisions for NASA) should be thrilled at the prospect of a space elevator. Right now to get 1 gallon of water into space costs approximately 80,000 USD [source (http://www.nasa.gov/topics/nasalife/pure_water.html)]. The space elevator would drastically reduce that cost not just for water, but for all manner of cargo which now must be lifted via bulky and mega-expensive rockets. The new Ares program is a more cost-effective method to put cargo into space but it has gone back to the old Apollo days as far as "polluting" space goes (all the debris and such that it just abandons in space) and is still extremely pricey (I don't have figures for the cost reduction, I remember hearing it is something like a 1/4 reduction of the cost of the space shuttle delivery system).
We NEED to be in space. We NEED to go to the moon, and Mars (and beyond). It's pathetic that no human being has left low-earth orbit since 1972. I'm a huge advocate of space exploration though. I think it's the most important thing we, as humans, should be putting effort into right now ... so my opinions on the matter, I admit, are probably a tad biased.
Imagine how we could advance the space program if we took the trillions of dollars we're dumping into useless foreign wars and put it towards space exploration... makes me sad.
Agreed.
We need to realise that earths days are numbered. There are certain threats to the earth that there is simply nothing we could do about.
We need an alternative if we want the human race to survive into the far future.
The idea that one day in my lifetime I could be walking on the moon is so exciting, and because I'm quite a bit younger than most people on these forums I've got the biggest chance! :P
Not satisfied with colonizing Earth, humans settle on the moon. Not satisfied with colonizing two planetary bodies, humans use the moon as a springboard to Mars. I have no doubt both these things will happen in the future, but needless to say not in the near future.
We could use the moon as a second chance at civilisation. When we first settled the Earth (however it happened), we knew nothing. Now we know about politics, art, science, and (literally) an encyclopedia of other things, there's a chance we can resolve things like disease and poverty before they occur.
For President of the Moon vote AtelierGames! :=
Quote from: AtelierGames on Fri 06/11/2009 20:03:00
The idea that one day in my lifetime I could be walking on the moon is so exciting, and because I'm quite a bit younger than most people on these forums I've got the biggest chance! :P
That kind of gloating won't make you very popular when we're all cramming into one space elevator, watching the waters rise and incessantly jabbing at the 'up' button.
Looks like no election for me then...
Quote from: Ali on Fri 06/11/2009 20:12:36
Quote from: AtelierGames on Fri 06/11/2009 20:03:00
The idea that one day in my lifetime I could be walking on the moon is so exciting, and because I'm quite a bit younger than most people on these forums I've got the biggest chance! :P
That kind of gloating won't make you very popular when we're all cramming into one space elevator, watching the waters rise and incessantly jabbing at the 'up' button.
This gave me a good laugh.
What would you do if it stopped working when you are 10 miles above the Earth?
"Yeah, uh, we got a call about an elevator stuck on the 45,637th floor..."
lol
What about the first space minimall?
Imagine the prices..
Space elevator, even more than common ones, needs maintenance and constant repairs.
How would it look like?
A hovercraft of some sort? Fighter pilot trying to tape up carbon cable whilst flying by? A really high ladder?
Also, how much impact is need to make upper, floating platform to stray from orbit? And what happens then?
:D
QuoteWe need to realise that earths days are numbered. There are certain threats to the earth that there is simply nothing we could do about.
We need an alternative if we want the human race to survive into the far future.
I think by the time Earth is seriously threatened (and I mean the planet itself, not the ecosystem) by the Sun going supernova or some such, the "human race" will be a really outdated concept for the creatures with the blue tentacles and 12 eyes that will be dominant species by then.
It reminds me of a story that I read when I was little about a King who owned a huge kingdom. He'd been captivated by the moon, and always dreamt that one day he could walk across the surface. So he ordered his private forest to be cut down to make wooden boxes, which he ordered the servants to stack into a tower. As the King got higher and higher up the tower, he became more and more certain that eventually he'd reach the moon. After his hunting forest had been completely cut down, he ordered another two forests to be cleared and made into boxes. As the tower rose taller and taller, the King ordered all the trees in his kingdom to be sawn down. Eventually, the moon was within a hair's breadth of the King's fingers. But the King had been driven so mad with his desire to touch the moon that all the trees had been cut down, and there were no more boxes left. The King jumped, the tower toppled beneath him, and the soon to be ex-King fell to Earth.
Maybe the story is prophetic?
Quote from: Lufia on Sat 07/11/2009 19:13:48
I think by the time Earth is seriously threatened (and I mean the planet itself, not the ecosystem) by the Sun going supernova or some such, the "human race" will be a really outdated concept for the creatures with the blue tentacles and 12 eyes that will be dominant species by then.
Right and wrong I think.
But instead of tentacles, it is most likely that prevailing species would be either bugs (which make already 95% of earth's species overall, and about 20% of earths whole biomass, plus - are tough as hell)...
OR some kind of viruses.
It's not nukes and ozone layer that threats extinction of mankind, but rather diseases. What if AIDS or cancer spreaded airborne? Would be pretty quick demise for us. And new diseases happen quite often, much quicker than cure for them.
Space elevator would not help us here.
So rather than taking the [intelligent and logical] steps to create a space elevator (or any other method to expand our species off the planet) we should just sit idly by for a few million years until we get wiped out by a virus or swarms of insects. That makes much more sense.
It's those same kind of defeatist attitudes that I suspect people like Columbus had to deal with in the past. It is human nature to explore, to push boundaries, to investigate the things we don't understand. When we suppress that instinct we stagnate as a species. Not to mention the huge advances such exploration will usher in.
I can usually just ignore the negativity because, one way or another, we will explore space. It's inevitable. We just need to wade through the bullshit that those in opposition throw in the way. I'd be really curious (though hope to never have to test the theory) to see how quickly those naysayers would eat their words if/when we detect a large mass approaching earth on a collision course and we find out that had we spent the time, money and energy on space exploration (as we should have) we'd have the ability to do something about it (like maybe put a counter-measure into space via the space elevator). It would be some powerful irony although not very satisfying as the outcome, the destruction of our species, would rather suck.
I do get it though. Pessimism is easier than optimism. It's easier to adopt a negative attitude. I think it's probably a way to protect against disappointment.
Evolution hasn't stopped just because we started building stuff. The concept that the "human race" will stay anything like it is today or remain the dominant species for million of years is far, far from being obvious. But hey, let's just blow some space rocks, you're right, that'll have an impact on... somehting. Probably.
I didn't say anything about evolution stopping because we start building things. That makes no sense at all (just by itself) and even less sense as some form of opposing opinion to what I said.
As far as "blow[ing up] space rocks" will have an impact on ... something. Yeah, only the continued survival of our species. Totally unimportant I know.
However, blow[ing up] space rocks is not the way to go if an object is on a collision course with the earth. You risk turning one large object into potentially millions of objects still heading toward the Earth. The best idea would be to "push" the object off its path. If we find it early enough (which would be more likely if we are exploring space as we should be) we'd only have to nudge it slightly which would alter its path enough to make it miss the planet.
Or we can ignorantly sit around doing nothing. It is easier that way.
Maybe we could pray for the space rock to miss us?
Wow Darth, you're really starting to creep me out by how much you're sounding like m0ds. Do you often lie awake at night dreading the approach of some shadowy death asteroid or comet? Seriously, I think obsessing on such issues is just another reason why humans think they're the center of everything. We always think (or want to) that the world is going to end in our lifetimes, just look how long the Nostradamus hoax bullshit has perpetuated!
I fully agree that more space tech would be good, but not because I'm afraid of asteroids! Actually, I'd just like to have my own tricked out spaceship with flames painted on that I could jet around in and do moon flybys on my way to PizzaMeteor for a large 3-topping and a Comet Shake. Shame it won't happen at our current rate of advancement for 200 years or more (and I'm being optimistic). Could you imagine how awesome a space drive-in would be?
SPACE CAPITALISTS: THE MOVIE!
The continued survival of our species for... ten years ? Till the next pandemic strikes ?
Keeping humans around for million of years. Yeah. lol
By that time, "human" will be the common ancestor between the snorxs and the cthulhus. Or just be plain extinct.
Oh, I'm all for exploring space. We fucked up the earth's ecosystem, it'd be sad to stop at just one planet. But "the Earth's days are numbered" and "the human race will survive into the far future"... The far future is further away than that.
I do not obsess, worry, or stay up nights worrying about an asteroid hitting the planet. However it is going to happen at some point in the future (probably not in any of our lifetimes) but it will happen again and the more prepared we are (advancing space exploration) the better.
I'm posting from my phone and it sucks a bit. I'll post more when I get home.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Sun 08/11/2009 00:11:31
Actually, I'd just like to have my own tricked out spaceship with flames painted on that I could jet around in and do moon flybys on my way to PizzaMeteor for a large 3-topping and a Comet Shake.
I will race you to PizzaMeteor in my spaceship with racing stripes and the number 304 painted on when this time comes. Last one there buys the shakes! :D
As for meteors and stuff hitting Mr Space Elevator, I am aware there are tons of little rocks and stuff zipping around up there like mosquitos in Uncle Randy's swamp (otherwise how else could you see so many dang shooting stars?) but there's loads of satellites floating around up there. Surely if having satellites is ok and fine then a space elevator would be fairly safe as well?
Of course, if you're 3/4 of the way up to space when the one in a million asteroid
does hit the elevator, you're going to need a parachute.
Or you know, ProgZ and I could come and do cool action movie rescue scenes with our tricked out spaceships ;D
Edit: While listening to Van Halen and Whitesnake on our holodisk players, of course! 8)
What do you mean, holodisk player?
I want my own clone of the beetles, thanks!
Quote from: wonkyth on Sun 08/11/2009 12:41:23
What do you mean, holodisk player?
I want my own clone of the beetles, thanks!
Yeah but a clone of David Lee Roth running around my spaceship?
That's just
asking for trouble!
The fact of the matter is that statistically we are overdue for a big asteroid strike.
Also we actually monitor very little of the skies for asteroids.
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that a large asteroid hits the earth within our life time.
Saying its unlikely to happen is like playing russian roulette. Its true that we will probably not have to deal with it but the consequences of not preparing are too great to ignore and its not the kind of thing we could rustle up a solution for on short notice.. we need a plan in place and an alternative human base is a good plan.
The advantage of playing Russian roulette with the entire human race is that you cant comparatively lose... ::)
They have a winning team now, but I can't remember if it's the James May team who were featured or not!!! This article claims they won 900,000 dollars, the other says 2 mil? ???
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/news/Breaking_News/15265-Seattle_Team_Wins__900_000_In_Space_Elevator_Contest
Edit - oh, it's a purse. A bit like in Tiger Woods PGA 2004. :P
QuoteAn attempt by the Kansas City Space Pirates on Wednesday fell short of the speed requirement and got stuck partway up the cable during a Friday climb attempt. A climber built by the University of Saskatchewan Space Design Team was unable to compete during the three-day contest because of a series of technical glitches, NASA officials said.
Damn, Space Pirates!! How could they screw this up?
Thanks for the info Mods. A very good read.
Quote from: DartholomewI do get it though. Pessimism is easier than optimism. It's easier to adopt a negative attitude. I think it's probably a way to protect against disappointment.
Absolutely true. I was a pessimist for over seven years of my life, and it was certainly a way to protect against dissapointment.
I also second everything you are saying.
Quote from: The ProgsterDo you often lie awake at night dreading the approach of some shadowy death asteroid or comet?
No, but I worry about a black hole wandering our way. There's absolutely NOTHING we'll be able to do about it either. Hide in your basement? There will be no basement. We WILL cease to exist. *
Had a dream about that recently... woke up sweating and scared shitless at three in the morning. It was the most intense dream I had ever had.
* unless it instantaneously transports us to a parallel universe, that is.
Quote from: Snake on Tue 10/11/2009 01:37:37
but I worry about a black hole wandering our way.
(...)
Had a dream about that recently... woke up sweating and scared shitless at three in the morning. It was the most intense dream I had ever had.
Really? What an odd thing to dream about...
Perhaps you shoudn't watch those stupid Roland Emmerich movies..
There was a program on one of the educational channels (History, Discovery, et al) that featured the Top 10 ways the Earth would be destroyed (and no we can't do it ourselves). It was something to think about, but I wouldn't say I dream about such things. ;)
Hey TerranRich, what are the top 10 ways the Earth gets destroyed without our help?
I do not have cable anymore and can't watch my favorite shows on those channels.
I would like to see that list.
Thanks,
Shawn
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DhbpAttWPA
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr5QsjNRhaI
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMAKWpO-SoY
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z2Jwd2tCdI
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKAbZgMm-JA
Summary:
10. "Smackdown From Space" - Mars' orbit changes and impacts the Earth
9. "The Big Freeze" - Earth moves away from the sun
8. "The Big Burn" - Earth moves closer to the sun
7. "Stopping the Spin" - Earth's rotation completely stops
6. "Torn Between Two Black Holes" - Earth gets stuck between two small black holes, stretching it out
5. "Devoured From Within" - Earth suddenly has a black hole in its core
4. "Turn Off the Gravity" - Earth's gravity mysteriously vanishes, and we all float away :)
3. "Anti-Matter Annihilation" - 100,000,000,000,000 tons of antimatter hits the Earth (enough to destroy it)
2. "Transformed by Strange Matter" - One particle of strange matter touches something on the Earth, transforming the entire planet into strange matter. (I had never heard of strange matter before I watched this show, and this particular one amazed me.)
1. "When Parallel Worlds Collide" - A parallel universe interacts with ours, destroying not just the Earth, but both universes
What's amazing is that there's a realistic explanation of how each one could very well happen in real life, for the most part. :D
This show is packed with tons of explanations of 'branes (the theoretical separation of parallel universes and possible explanation for the Big Bang), the basic forces of physics, quarks and strange matter, and other various topics. Awesome show.
But maybe the strange matter will randomly give people super powers, and then it's like Heroes (only decent)!
As for asteroids and the recent fear mongering mega-craze, all I can say is you should petition NASA to build a giant cowboy robot with a lasso so he can ride the asteroid safely towards the sun, a futuristic Dr. Strangelove if you will.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Wed 11/11/2009 09:49:40
As for asteroids and the recent fear mongering mega-craze, all I can say is you should petition NASA to build a giant cowboy robot with a lasso so he can ride the asteroid safely towards the sun, a futuristic Dr. Strangelove if you will.
Thats the spirit!
Also humans will never have to face pandemics, earthquakes, volcanoes or global warming! Let's just ignore them and save a little money. Let the human race deal with it later. oh, they can't? tough shit.. i saved 10$ on my tax bill.
Mars Triology by Kim Stanely Robinson (an sf book) uses the space elevator idea on Mars. Someone blows it up, so they build another haha!
I'm more in favor of the cartwheel design by Michael Z. Williamson in his book "Freehoold", where they build a giant rotating wheel/space station that has the outer rim of it in space and the atmosphere. Coupled with a huge linear railway up a steep mountain with rocket propelled launch at the top, I think maybe it could work.
But, not in the near future IMO.
Quote from: Jim Reed on Wed 11/11/2009 10:36:15
the outer rim of it in space and the atmosphere.
Does that mean I could bungee off it?
Quote from: ProgZmax on Wed 11/11/2009 09:49:40As for asteroids and the recent fear mongering mega-craze, all I can say is you should petition NASA to build a giant cowboy robot with a lasso so he can ride the asteroid safely towards the sun, a futuristic Dr. Strangelove if you will.
Nah. I don't subscribe to the fear-mongering (as you call it). I subscribe to a common sense and logical approach to a very real problem we will have to face someday (maybe even by those reading this message). Just this year we've had two close calls; one
back in March (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/04/tech/main4842357.shtml) and one just
a few days (http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news166.html) ago. While neither were "global killers" the one in march was similar in size to the Tunguska event in 1908 (800 sq miles of forest leveled). The most recent one was discovered a whole 15 hours before it passed us by (less than two earth widths from us).
Not exactly a lot of warning.
Quote from: Calin Leafshade on Wed 11/11/2009 09:58:43Also humans will never have to face pandemics, earthquakes, volcanoes or global warming! Let's just ignore them and save a little money.
Research, from space, has led to
more breakthroughs than people realize (http://aerospacescholars.jsc.nasa.gov/HAS/Modules/Shuttle-to-Station/3/7.cfm). So the argument that, "we have problems to deal with here on earth" feels VERY close-minded to me. Yes, any idiot knows there are problems to deal with on Earth, but space exploration has proven time and again to be the spur for innovation/discovery that can help solve those problems.
Pandemics? NASA is conducting research to
track such things from space (http://weboflife.nasa.gov/currentResearch/currentResearchGeneralArchives/attackFromAbove.htm) (about 2/3 down the page). Many common illnesses and diseases (such as influenza, diabetes, psoriasis, and even lymphoma) have drugs in clinical trials now solely because of NASAs research done in space.
Volcanoes? Caldaras (super volcanoes) went largely undetected until they were able to be viewed from space. Opening a whole new realm of geological study and understanding. Earthquakes? Major advances in the understanding of plate tectonics and fault-lines came directly from the space program. Our geological understanding has increased exponentially because of the space program. Not just from being able to view the planet from afar but from studies of other celestial bodies and how those geological bodies function.
Yes, we have issues need dealing with here on mother Earth. And space is the place to find the solutions.
Darth ... out.
I was being sarcastic Darth :p
I fully support your position but not Progz'
I think Douglas Adams said it best:
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."
Point being, the earth is just a speck of a dust in the vastness of space, and in spite of the odd scientist having a fit and waxing doomsday on a supposedly educational show (some of them love in particular to cite these near misses that are a million of miles off), most agree the possibility of a large asteroid impact is incredibly slim at best, though to be fair to probability it can happen. I'm sorry that asteroids worry you; it's not fun to be worried about things, but I think our resources are better spent taking care of our myriad problems here on Earth, and we have a lot of problems here to resolve before we can even hope to start looking outward. While NASA efforts have made several breakthroughs, I'm not sure asteroid deflection research will be terribly more useful than for asteroid deflection.
Edit:
Even reading your article about the latest asteroid flyby it gives some pretty calming information:
1. It was over an entire Earth away in distance. Scientists love to say how close this is because of how big space is but 14000 km is quite a lot!
2. Asteroids just like it hit earth semi-routinely which accounts for why they are not so staunchly observed. A massive asteroid is going to have a much larger footprint in space and be detected sooner than a 7m asteroid that is mostly burnt up in the atmosphere.
I wouldn't want an asteroid to devastate the Earth but you have to temper unrealistic fear with the sheer size of our galaxy. I never said we should completely ignore such an eventuality, but I fully believe it should not be a priority. Asteroid research is being conducted right now and advancements are being made. I just think it's rather amusing and sad that people clasp the side of their faces like Macaulay Culkin and scream apocalypse right now because it's a mass media event (not you specifically, Darth). Twenty years ago we were sure the Cold War would kill us and nobody was really worrying about asteroids.
I find the quote from Douglas Adams to be very meaningful indeed. Given the sheer vastness of space I consider a mere 14,000 km to be WAY too close. It's like a bullet missing your head by less than the width of a human hair. I, personally, don't see how anybody with a concept of the size of space can't see just how close that really is. But hey, to each their own I guess.
People who panic over the issue of an impact are every bit as bad as the 2012 nut-jobs who actually believe the Mayans knew anything about the future. They also thought the first people were made of mud, then wood, then leaves. Yeah, I'm sure they knew about the end of days!
I never said that asteroid detection should be a priority surpassing all others. Space exploration (research and exploration) is of major importance and asteroid detection is a part of that. And I'm aware that it is being undertaken. In fact, the delta II rocket carrying the WISE (wide-field infrared survey explorer) program, launches next week. One of the main focuses of the WISE project is near earth asteroid detection. It's a step in the right direction.
QuoteI'm sorry that asteroids worry you; it's not fun to be worried about things, but I think our resources are better spent taking care of our myriad problems here on Earth, and we have a lot of problems here to resolve before we can even hope to start looking outward. While NASA efforts have made several breakthroughs, I'm not sure asteroid deflection research will be terribly more useful than for asteroid deflection.
As I said (a few times) asteroids do not worry me. It's not "unrealistic" fear, rather, it's logical thinking based on scientific fact that it
is going to happen again. We [humans] are the first species on this planet that actually has the capacity/ability to do something about it. And we should (and are). Perhaps not enough (but I hope we never have to find that out).
As for the research into asteroid deflection being useful for nothing more than asteroid deflection... well, I'd probably tell a story of a guy named Alexander Flemming who was doing research on mucus and stumbled across a little thing called penicillin. One can never know what will come of research. Yes, there are myriad problems here on earth, but like I said before, the solutions are in space.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Thu 12/11/2009 03:18:10
I find the quote from Douglas Adams to be very meaningful indeed. Given the sheer vastness of space I consider a mere 14,000 km to be WAY too close. It's like a bullet missing your head by less than the width of a human hair. I, personally, don't see how anybody with a concept of the size of space can't see just how close that really is. But hey, to each their own I guess.
I think the point is that the asteroid missed. Space is enormously big and in galactic terms the asteroid was right on top of us. But the fact is that the asteroid missed us. The sheer probability of a big asteroid hitting us is ginormously big, so even if the asteroids come close to us, they still don't hit us. I think that's what Progz was trying to say.
In 1989 the 200 metre 4581 Asclepius passed by the earth by about 700,000 km.
Now obviously you're thinking thats no problem since its along way away.
To put it into perspective thats where the earth was only 6 hours previously.
Yes, space is big. Yes, the earth is small but it only takes one of the thousand or so NEA which could be catastrophic (above 1km in size) to hit us and millions of people could die.
It seems ludicrous to dismiss such a threat on the assumption that its so unlikely it doesn't matter.
To me this is the same as Ron Paul's stance on Swine Flu.
"They made some fuss about a supposed 'pandemic' in the 70s and no one died, therefore we should ignore all pandemics as media hype"
That's not really Ron Paul's position at all. He knows the government well and how people in places of power use fear like any other tool to get what they want via mass media. As a doctor he is concerned about the potential trouble that could come of it, as a reasonable human being he isn't going to jump the gun and make a mountain out of a molehill, though. Ask yourself what good can come out of working people into a panic only to find out the situation is far less serious than they were led to believe.
Ask yourself what negative consequences could arise from being complacent about a possible threat.
It is better to be vigilant than blasé.
Quote from: Phemar on Thu 12/11/2009 07:10:50The sheer probability of a big asteroid hitting us is ginormously big
Yes the probability of an impact
is ginormously big. It's 100% in fact. ;)
I actually agree with [some] of what ProgZ is saying. Giving in to the "fear syndrome" is the wrong move. However, most of the scientists I see discussing the subject approach it rationally (based on the science) and with the knowledge that it's just a matter of time. Granted some of them can be a tad grandiose when they talk about it but I don't see it as fear-mongering but more as a passion for the subject.
I agree 100% with Calin's quote, "It is better to be vigilant than blasé". It's far better to be educated about it, make a plan, and be proactive than it is to sit around, [maybe] discover it coming, and then try to react to it.
Of course this entire debate is kind of silly 'cause I really
really hope we never have to find out if we're "ready" for the eventuality :)
It never hurts to be prepared, I always say. If you know an asteroid will eventually hit us, whether it's tomorrow or 6,000 years from now, there should always be a plan. And that plan should always be examined and revised as new technology pops up. That doesn't necessarily mean there's a global crisis and people should panic and start rioting, but if it did happen tomorrow, wouldn't you want the scientists of the world to say, "Oh, not to fear, we planned for this sort of thing. Be a minute."
QuoteIt is better to be vigilant than blasé.
No. It's better to temper that sort of attitude with
reasoned, ethical behavior and not to panic citizens into doing what you want them to do. That is the sort of behavior that allows Fascism to secure and maintain a foothold in society.
And I agree that at some point we should have huge space laser beams (maybe like the Tholian Web?) that can be switched on and bounce off a series of micromirrors so anything coming in contact just gets carved into tiny bits. That would be neat! Technology like that is also rather far off, though (not as far as 6000 years I wager). I do think at some point the technology will be there. Humans have a tendency to rise to the occasion during the worst events in history, and we are equally capable of great acts of wonder and horror. Just be a bit more optimistic, that's my advice ;).
Also, the Carl Sagan song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc&NR=1
From an asteroid defense plan to fascism? And you think other people are scared over nothing?
I just saw Phil Plait [the bad astronomer] give a talk and he said the prevailing plan is to build a rocket that has a lot of mass and position it next to any incoming projectile, leave it there for a little while and they will attract each other, put some rocket boosters on it so it stays a fixed distance away and the asteroid will move out of a collision path and we're safe from that strike.
He didn't mention any thing about fascism being needed to enact this plan but maybe I just don't know the tech tree well enough.
Quote from: MrColossal on Mon 16/11/2009 05:54:53I just saw Phil Plait [the bad astronomer] give a talk and he said the prevailing plan is to build a rocket that has a lot of mass and position it next to any incoming projectile, leave it there for a little while and they will attract each other, put some rocket boosters on it so it stays a fixed distance away and the asteroid will move out of a collision path and we're safe from that strike.
Yeah this is my favorite of the current plans... It's called the "gravity tractor". The reason it's the most appealing to me [now] is because we already have the technology to make this possible. The set-back for this method is it requires knowledge of the impact WAY in advance (years). If we discover the impact only 15 hours (even a few months) in advance we'd be in some trouble!
Wow Eric, hooray for being a smartass := . Looks like you get a gold star!
My earlier comment was still addressing Calin's statement about not taking swine flu seriously, though the argument applies to anything a government tries to achieve by fear or coercion. I wasn't specifically addressing asteroid threats there, though I still think reasoned ethical behavior needs to prevail over knee-jerk responses based on fear or ignorance (or both). I think that's good advice all around, really, since men like Hawking and Sagan have long suggested our ends will likely come from within rather than without.
I'm still not sure what any of this has to do with space elevators, though. What strange discussions we have!
Progz,
I fail to see what your solution would be in the event of 'impending asteroid DOOM!'
We see the asteroid maybe 24 hours in advance (which is perfectly possible) and then just say "well bugger me... It was quite unlikely though" and then just die?
I'm not saying we should drop everything and start building the laser cannons but what exactly is your position? Leave it a few hundred years when its far cheaper to go into space?
We could not rustle up a solution in 24 hours so would we just have to sit around and wait to die because we didnt have an alternative?
The threat of an asteroid strike (or any global extinction event) should be taken seriously simply because there are no second chances. We can't learn from our experience here.
Also on the subject of vigilance vs blaséness with regards to swine flu (yes i just said blaséness) what do you propose the government does instead?
A new highly contagious virus begins to spread throughout mexico.
We have precedent for a new strain of flu spreading globally (1918)
We have precedent for a new strain of flu killing very high numbers (Bird flu kills 1 in 3 or so)
Would you expect the government to say its probably nothing and ignore it until we begin to have a death toll that rivals that of seasonal flu?
If they do ignore it then it would become almost impossible to contain to any degree later on so they have to make a decision early.
Like i said... russian roulette.
Maybe we can leave the politics aside and focus on the technical/science fictional aspects of asteroid-fighting instead?
I find it very fascinating to ponder on the far future of mankind, in a perspective of thousands or even millions of years. Will we have spread to other planets? What will our civilization(s) be like? How will religion and philosophy be affected by the discovery of other worlds?
I would rather see the world spending money on something that will make money and advance our species. Sure, an asteroid prevention program will give lots of people work in the meantime, and it could possibly save humanity. But I'd rather see space ships going to the moon to mine, this space elevator (if it's possible to do) or something equally as rewarding, rather than to see billions spent on a possible prevention--which may never be needed.
Anyway, I'm not saying there isn't a chance a massive asteroid will head our way, I just don't want money and resources wasted on a possibility. We can't learn to leap, if we're hiding in a shell.
Hmm.
I confess, the threat of massive asteroids doesn't scare me much.
Things like Prions scare me more, but that might have something to do with various relatives dying from CJD. :-\
A quick internet search didn't turn up much useful data, so I turned to the (once) trusty old A Short History of Nearly Everything by that bearded and amusing Bill Bryson chap.
According to this lovely (yet slightly dated, admittedly) text, most of these 'close calls' weren't seen until after the event (at the time the book was written).
The fact that Darth's links show things like 6 hour warnings and the like mean that I fear my knowledge is now out of date :(
Curse you, formerly reliable and still interesting books! I had so much faith in you :(
Maybe we should rig laser systems (eg. movie theft alarm ones) in a net just far enough from earth to be able to react. Yeah, it would cost (maintenance and puting a very large number of satelites in space), but it's a good idea.
This conversation
did get slightly off-topic didn't it?
My original point (before the tangent of space rocks began) was that space exploration (space elevator) is important. Furthering space exploration/study would advance the detection of asteroids/comets (even if it wasn't the primary focus) as well as advancing countless other areas that could use a little advancing (IE the problems we face daily here on earth).
I see this is painfully obvious but, as this thread proves, opinions vary.
Quote from: Andail on Tue 17/11/2009 08:46:54I find it very fascinating to ponder on the far future of mankind, in a perspective of thousands or even millions of years. Will we have spread to other planets? What will our civilization(s) be like? How will religion and philosophy be affected by the discovery of other worlds?
I, too, am fascinated by the future ... I consider myself an amateur futurist. I love considering where we'll be in even 100 years. I also love going back and watching old sci-fi (tv/movies) and seeing how badly they got it wrong (Disco referencing Back to the Future 2 in that other thread of yours is a great example). Aliens is another ... apparently in the far future we'll still be using CRT monitors with interlaced video and computer displays with only 2 colors. I can't wait for the future!!
edit: nevermind*
Anyway, something I love about the real world is that something will happen that is unlike the majority of popular science fiction. A space elevator? No one adds that to their science fiction movie because either it sounds unreal or isn't sexy like getting in a space craft and counting down. Man, it's fucking sexy as hell. Anything that gets me to space is so amazingly fuckable.
Sorry, but: Owch.
Eric, time traveller and cosmosexual
Mittens 2010: Space
Who's with me? We can all get in a hot tub and just... let the mood take us
I'm ready to rock out with my...
Er. I mean yes.
Will there be martian babes?
See, all this is possible because of the Space Elevator. :)
Now we have no reason to not attend Mittens 2010 in Space. :)
I'll attend, finally!
Screw the Space Elevator...We need damn Teleporters!!
(http://www.irishbeats.net/images/Teleporters-Star-Trek.jpg)
Here we have, AGA, CJ and MrColossal, about ready to beam up to Mittens 2010.
Future, here we come. :)
MrColossal looks genuinely displeased in that picture. AGA looks his usual cheery self, though.
And CJ looked more handsome with a beard....
:=
Quote from: Calin Leafshade on Fri 06/11/2009 19:42:27
Agreed.
We need to realise that earths days are numbered. There are certain threats to the earth that there is simply nothing we could do about.
We need an alternative if we want the human race to survive into the far future.
A finnish poet/songwriter/bassist wrote (translated by me):
Some day shining ships
will rise on their wings
to carry us from the valleys of sorrow
to the stars, far away
far awayIt's from the song "Uusi Ihmiskunta" [The New Mankind].
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mziz5RaHbTo
Even if I saw 1,000,000 years into the future, and found humans still living on Earth, in the end it makes no difference how and when our species become extinct. There may be an incalculable number of planets like ours that have already ceased to exist somehow. But it's the suffering more than anything we should be worried about. The pains of 6.3 billion people is more important than survival for another 1000 years, only to be destroyed by our own machines.
In the meantime let's play games about it! :)
http://uk.games.ign.com/articles/970/970511p1.html
There seem to be an almost insurmountable number of potential architectural problems a space elevator could run into, which is probably why the idea's not been put forward until now or considered a bit silly. When you take an external view of it and imagine looking at the thing from space, that would be one hell of a long elevator! Imagine the potential stresses working against it in the upper atmosphere vs. in space. Certainly the earthbound section would need to be considerably different from the vacuum portion due to wind sheer, gravity, and such. I'd be extremely impressed to see something like that achieved with current technology...
And then countries will start using it to export landfills to the moon!
Kind of off-topic, but I saw on the Discovery Channel when I had cable, that Engineers were trying to build an underwater subway system that would go from New York to England.
It was a long railway tube that had to be anchored to the ocean's floor, and the trains would move so fast that you could get there in just a short time.
Damn, I want to watch that again.
If a railway from NY to England can't work, then I assume the Space Elevator will never happen.
Could somebody find that link to the underwater railway?
SK
I saw that episode too (it was a program called "Extreme Engineering"). Very cool stuff.
Here is the youTube video for part 1 (of 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frYWTrEfPRs
Then follow the links to the other parts as well.
They've already managed to build a chunnel from Britain to France but the train that takes you there isn't very luxury. :-[ I propose the train from GB to USA has perspex walls, SCUBA stop offs, and more than one toilet which you don't have to walk through the whole train to get to! >:(
I fully support such a project. Then I could achieve a European touchdown without ever having to set foot in an evil evil plane.
HOORAY FOR TECHNOLOGY! Helping us all to avoid phobias since 1900.
I know what you mean about planes...I also will never step foot in an airplane. I did fly round-trip to New York City with my dad back in 1982, and that was the last time I have ever been in an evil plane.
I have not been in a plane since, or will ever fly again. I am scared to death to even go in a plane.
Maybe we could take the Trans-Atlantic train to Europe together. I hope you don't mind a train going 5,000 MPH. :)
I know that we're all going to die anyway, and an airplane isn't any less safe than a car. If I'm going to die, I'd rather it be in an airplane rather than a head on collision with a car where you'll more than likely die a slow painful, blood gushing death. Not that I fear either transportation. I just know I'd prefer an airplane crash over a bad car crash, or even some light crashes where it screws up your back for the rest of your life. Screw that. I've got an uncle living in a world of pain cause of a bad car crash years and years ago. I'm sure he would rather have died.
I'm always amazed at people's fears of airplanes. Airplane travel is FAR safer than car, bus or train travel not to mention far more convenient! I'll grant that if you are involved in a plane crash you're FAR more likely to die but, statistically speaking, I'll get on a plane any day! I would also get on a space elevator and an under-sea train to Europe.
I've been in a head-on collision and injured my back, Ryan, and I'm certainly happy to be alive. The whole planes being safer argument is really moot when your chances of survival are just about zero if something goes wrong. I'm more concerned by death potential than accident/injury potential if you know what I mean :).
I'm sorry to hear about your accident. Hopefully you're not in any pain still from it.
My father was in a very small motorcycle accident about 5 years ago. He only broke a few ribs and the rest of the damage was all just bruising and whatnot. Still though, till this day he can't bend over to tie his shoes without some pain.
Death comforts me more than pain. Perhaps something is wrong with me? haha :P
edit: Anyway, I'm pretty much just saying that a plane crash to me, sounds much more comfortable.
Same with parachuting over bungee jumping. I fear heights. I can't be close to a ledge without getting vertigo sometimes. I'd be much more comfortable jumping out of an airplane with a parachute, than I would be with a bungee cord wrapped around my legs jumping off a bridge.