Pardon my ignorance, but there is one thing I don't understand about the latest LOTR Movie: Why the HELL does Frodo leave middle earth in the ending???
Friends have told me that he died in the first movie and was brought back to life after the shadow/witch king stabbed him, but I am not satisfied with that answer. Is this correct / incorrect?? Please 'enlighten' me!!
Becuase his whole experience and the effect of the ring on his soul had left him so that he could never turly be "at home" again, so he had to keep wandering forever, or something like that.
In the book , when they get home to the shire, Saruman has sent lots of Orcs to ruin the place and they have to get rid of them all...
Tolkien realised that he had written a novel with lack of dramatic intensity and he had to put something sad at the end.
/me maquiavellically laughs thinking where this thread is going to end...
/me makes people know he is kidding!
Quiet, you silly Spaniard. ;)
To really answer this question properly requires one to read the long and tiresome "Silmarillion", what is something I did. Basically, the origin of the Elves is an island to the West of Middle Earth called Valinor. On Valinor live the Valar (Gods), and other Elven races.
When Sauron created The One Ring, the fate of the elves became bound to it through their Three Rings. When the ring was destroyed, the Elves lost their eternal life, and had to leave Middle Earth to the West to maintain it. This is why Arwen's choice to stay with Aragorn meant death.
During the time he was carrying the ring, Frodo too became bonded to it. Middle-Earth had to be completely cleansed, what meant that Frodo, who still held the taint of the Ring had to leave (as well as Bilbo).
P.S. Time could have twisted my memory, so I might be wrong in some details.
Yes, there's quite a bit of inaccuracy in Barcik's post.
Here's a summary of the relevant mythology:
The Elves didn't come from Valinor; they awoke somewhere in the East of the continent Middle-Earth, and the Valar summoned them to their country Valinor when they found out. Not all of them came, though.
The reason the Elves have to leave is not that they have "lost their eternal life"; sorry, but that is complete nonsense. The life of the Elves is bound to the universe, and is eternal within it - as far as that goes. What happens after that is unknown. Humans are mortal, which was intended as a gift by Ilúvatar, the creator, as it means they're not bound to the world and leave it, although it is never said where they go (it would make little sense if it was, as nobody within the universe would know).
The reason the Elves are leaving is that the world is to come under the domination of Mankind. This has been so since the Moon and Sun were made (beginning the First Age (LotR describes the end of the Third); which was *not* the beginning of the world, just to make that clear), and there were rather few Elves left already at the end of the Second Age, when Sauron was defeated by the remaining Noldor under Gil-Galad and the surviving Faithful of Númenor under Elendil (they messed up this part in the first movie's prelude a bit). Arwen's choice to stay with Aragorn meant death because she chose to become mortal, as their common ancestor Lúthien did in the First Age, about seven thousand years earlier.
Frodo is leaving because he was too deeply hurt by the ring to be healed in Middle-Earth, and also because of the dominion of Men - all this old Elvish nonsense about magic and Rings and such was leaving along with the Elves.
And the Silmarillion isn't tiresome, it's AWEsome. A common typo. ;)
QuoteFriends have told me that he died in the first movie and was brought back to life after the shadow/witch king stabbed him, but I am not satisfied with that answer. Is this correct / incorrect?? Please 'enlighten' me!!
This is completly false. Frodo nevers died and came back to life.
QuoteAnd the Silmarillion isn't tiresome, it's AWEsome. A common typo.
Amen to that.
I have to check the appendices, but IIRC, Sam leaves for the Grey Havens many years later since he was a ring bearer(even though for a short time.).
But I do remember that Legolas builds a ship and he takes Gimli with him to the Grey Havens a few years after the end of ROTK.
Quote from: The Knight on Thu 15/01/2004 22:09:03
This is completly false. Frodo nevers died and came back to life.
Yep, forgot to talk about this one... I'm not sure how people arrived at that conclusion. I've seen the movie, and I didn't get the impression that they changed it to have Frodo actually die.
Quote
I have to check the appendices, but IIRC, Sam leaves for the Grey Havens many years later since he was a ring bearer(even though for a short time.).
But I do remember that Legolas builds a ship and he takes Gimli with him to the Grey Havens a few years after the end of ROTK.
Yes. The latter is true, and the former is also, although this information is only given by way of "speculation".
I'd like to emphasize again that Arwen
became mortal by her choice to stay with Aragorn, because that is a rather important bit, as it only happened twice - once in the First Age with Lúthien and Beren and once at the end of the Third Age, as narrated in LotR. The second movie (haven't seen the third yet) has Elrond threatening Arwen with the prospect of Aragorn dying and her, being an Elf, remaining forever in the world and being divided both from him and from the other Elves. Now, I don't know what they made of that in the third film, but either Elrond isn't realizing how deep her choice to stay with Aragorn went, or he's talking nonsense because he doesn't want to be parted from his daughter, or they changed that. If it's the latter, I'm going to be a bit annoyed.
All the other elves stay immortal within the world, and can't leave it until the end.
There is one case where the reverse happened - Tuor (father of Elwing, mother of Elrond and Elros; Elrond and Elros were called the Half-Elven and allowed to choose their allegiance after the First Age. Elrond chose the Elves, so he is still around at the end of the Third Age. Elros chose Men and was the first king of Númenor, and the remote ancestor of Aragorn) was numbered among the Noldor, one of the kindreds of the Elves.
blargh, accidentally used reply with quote instead of edit
Quote from: The Knight on Thu 15/01/2004 22:09:03
QuoteAnd the Silmarillion isn't tiresome, it's AWEsome. A common typo.
Amen to that.
I certainly found it fascinating, and very impressive, but it's hard for me to truly say I
enjoyed it. I read it some years ago, so I may go back and try to slog through it again; perhaps my feelings will be different.
The Silmarillion is a hard book to read once and understand, but it really is a terrific book--once you comprehend what's going on. :) I'm sure you'll get it after the tenth time you read it. ;)
I don't know if this helps but here's a site with some frequently asked questions about the LotR. It's a little "Whoa" on the eyes due to the amount of text but it answers its questions pretty accurately.
http://www.moviemistakes.com/film2746/questions (http://www.moviemistakes.com/film2746/questions)
Quote from: Fuzzpilz on Thu 15/01/2004 16:57:44
And the Silmarillion isn't tiresome, it's AWEsome. A common typo. ;)
According to my dictionary, one can be both. I can't say I disliked the Silmarillion, but it sure wasn't "fun reading". I can sure see why you like it, and it indeed was a fascinating piece of literature, but it's just so hard to read.
And do you actually remember all these details or do you have a copy of the Silmarillion in your pocket?
That was all from memory, yes. I don't know what details you're talking about, though, as most of what I posted was merely summarising and talking about general themes.
The thing is that this book is mostly all details!
This passage for example:
QuoteThere is one case where the reverse happened - Tuor (father of Elwing, mother of Elrond and Elros; Elrond and Elros were called the Half-Elven and allowed to choose their allegiance after the First Age. Elrond chose the Elves, so he is still around at the end of the Third Age. Elros chose Men and was the first king of Númenor, and the remote ancestor of Aragorn) was numbered among the Noldor, one of the kindreds of the Elves.
That, mate, is details.
I can't say that's details. I last read the Silmarillion well over 6 years ago between then and which came the adventures of puberty, all of high school and a steady descent into the vices of maturity, and I remember that.
Well, you can say that since there is no one basic plotline to it, everything in the Silmallirion is details. But forget it, it's a useless argument.
By the way, my memory of books is surprisingly bad. I have read Dune thrice, and saw the various movies several times more, and still can't remember everything that happens there.
It reads similarly to the KJV bible. Elrond begat Frodo who begat Beelzebub and then in the dawning of the year of light of the latter century of the damnable equinox of the fourth millenium did mankind seek to place itself most jauntily in the forethrust of antiquity. It has a similar purpose in my opinion, to provide knowledge for those that seek it, not necessarily to entertain. If I wanted to read a work such as this, I would rather pick up something non-fiction so it would at least serve a purpose or provide me with usuable information. To each his/her own, I suppose.
I would just read the cliff notes* version
[Here in AMERICA, people are too lazy to read school assigned books such as Grapes of Wrath therefore many students resort to reading these summarized books which give you most of the information and plot without all the crazy literature. However, most teachers try to find ways to keep students from this ploy.]
Happy goldmund? :P
Unfortunately it is condensed enough to be a summary anyway, most of the chapters could easily be expanded into novels
Quote from: EvenWolf on Sat 17/01/2004 06:09:12
I would just read the cliff notes* version
[Here in AMERICA, people are too lazy to read school assigned books such as Grapes of Wrath therefore many students resort to reading these summarized books which give you most of the information and plot without all the crazy literature. However, most teachers try to find ways to keep students from this ploy.]
Happy goldmund? :P
Hey, I'm very happy. Never heard of cliff notes before. My dictionary is enriched. Not only am I overjoyed at your display of kindness, but also I have learnt an interesting fact about fate of literature in some countries. Thanks.
That's what I'm here for :)
Of course I was half expecting a reply from someone telling me "duh, cliff notes are everywhere" or whatnot.
EvenWolf: Duh, cliff notes are everywhere. ;D
Sorry, I just had to do it.
Quote from: EvenWolf on Sat 17/01/2004 16:46:33
Of course I was half expecting a reply from someone telling me "duh, cliff notes are everywhere" or whatnot.
Ugh. I was going to say that most other countries probably have some equivalent. Now I'm choosing to bite my tongue a bit and merely *hope* they do. How sad would that be? The only country in the world to need them being the US? Argh. I've never used 'em myself as I read voraciously.
Of course, whilst the rest of the world has them, the term "cliff notes" isn't universal.
But then again, I'd like to imply that the US is the only country that uses them, thus indicating that Yakspit, as a member of said nation is stupid.
You're totally pwned yak.
That hugely sux0rs. I am fully willing to admit that it's well within my understanding of the US to consider that we might just be the only country that rapes classic literature, producing something slightly less intellectual than the most recent X For Dummies publication. Although I can understand even some of the more literate people using them in some cases. It is my belief that nobody should be made to suffer through The Great Gatsby, at least not without a human rights violation council being called in.
I think Las' post was meant to indicate that such things DO exist in other countries, they just don't necessary bear the seal of good old Cliff. But then again, maybe I'm just too much of a dumb American to have interpreted his post correctly.
Remo is right, but I'll say that he's wrong to imply yak is stupid, and to repeat the same joke.
PWNED!
Foiled again!
We have them here too, but I've never seen one. Only in mail order catalogues or similar. Never heard of anyone who used one for school homework instead of reading the actual book either.
[Instead everyone in my class would download essays and synopsis from the web written by other students who uploaded them to a couple of essay sites on the web out of generosity. This tactic worked great untill the teachers found out about the sites from the newspapers or two lazy unfortunate students in their class handed in the same essay or synopsis without bothering to edit it. Gotta love the web.
Disclaimer: I never did this, though I did use the synopsis and essays as reference material at times.]
"The corner of the lazy student.com" is the translation of the equivalent of that site in Spain... A good idea that didn´t worked for one simply reason... If ALL the people who enters there are lazy people looking for previous made works... nobody uploads NEW WORKS!!! So... the page had to close because of lack of entries...
Anyway, Spain is a country with a lot of lazy young people... We´re the first generation after the dictadure, I guess we can still be lazy for one generation... or two... Before the country goes off... :-\