Well.. m0ds brought up a good point yesterday in IRC. If you were there, you'll know exactly what this is about.
It explains itself, so just go and read it! :p
http://www.fbc-bettendorf.com/lgm/docs/state_of_boards.htm (http://www.fbc-bettendorf.com/lgm/docs/state_of_boards.htm)
I'm going to stay out of giving my opinion on this one because I would like to hear what everyone, both old and new, have to say.
I didn't do this to cause argument or anything.. I was just interested on how they felt about the boards and what was going on.
Nono, I don't mean I think there's going to be an arguement.
I mean, I want to listen and find out what people think are the problems and what they think are the solutions.
There are a lot of people signed up here, but if you look at the members list you can see that only a few of them use the boards. There are a lot of people with no posts and people who havent posted in a long time.
Exactly my point!
Well, I am now not exactly a 'newbie', not quite an 'oldbie'. I joined the forum in October, when there were around 500-600 registered members. And I do feel the change. It saddens me not to see people like Butcher and Helm more frequently, and I agree, that things are heading the wrong way. Unfortunately, this is a side-effect of popularity, and I believe that the priority is first and foremost to the widespread of AGS, not to the quality of the threads on the forums.
So, what can be done? I think that the people who have been with AGS long, such as DGMacphee and Evenwolf, and know the community need to act. How? Posting 'interesting topics', to quote LGM, posting on a high-level. In other words, to bring the quality up.
There are two points I think are important in relation to your essay:
1) "Hi, I'm new here" threads are a Good Thing, in my opinion. It's great when a newbie politely introduces themselves to the community.
2) From the responses of the 'oldbies', overall it just seems to be a natural moving on from AGS to other things. I didn't see any "I'm giving up this forum because it's crap" reasons, but people will gain and lose interest over time. Nobody sticks at anything forever.
I don't think there's any particular problem at the moment that needs to be addressed, personally.
I'm not saying the "I'm New" Threads are bad..
But when it's the only thing to read.. It's just kinda uninteresting..
I dunno.
Quote from: CJ on Fri 13/06/2003 18:05:10
1) "Hi, I'm new here" threads are a Good Thing, in my opinion. It's great when a newbie politely introduces themselves to the community.
Slightly off-topic, but....
Chris, many forums have a separate boards for these "Hi, I'm new threads". With the recent amount of them, don't you think it would be wise to create one here?
Actually, I had an interesting thought relating to what Chris said.
He posted this graph in another thread:
http://www.agsforums.com/forumages.jpg
Notice that the number of users declines with the increase of age after 21-23.
We hit a peak in our early 20s, then it slides down.
People are just moving on.
And it's sad, but it's true.
Things are never the same.
Which is why I think we need to call this the death of AGS - Generation 1 and the birth of AGS - Generation 2 -- it's something to be sad and happy about.
But just think of the newbies as a bunch of upcoming talent -- and the oldies as their mentors.
Like I said, it's just an idea.
Now, I'll shut up.
:)
Nice article LGM but CJ is kinda right, they didn't really say what I know you wanted to hear :p
However, my views remain the same. Boycott the Gen Gen board and make a game.
Boyd advised locking the Gen Gen forum. Do it! LOL ;)
m0ds
Well... The AGS users are growing incredibily high... but the community not.
Only one of each 20 or 30 newbies become a regular "poster" or will make a game. Where is the problem? We´re still a close community.
I mean... my working group is made by 4 guys and me. My friends are 10 or 12. No matter for me if the program that makes me being together to my friends is used by other 1,000 people or 10,000...
About the decission of making a new board for "Hello, i´m new here!"... Answer sincerelly... would you go to that board somedays? I won´t, and it would be a pitty not having the chance to know at least the names of that guys.
I don't have any problems with this beautiful, beautiful community. What few trolls we get never last very long at all. Every time an oldbie fades away, a future oldbie fades in. This is really the most Utopian message board I've ever known.
Quote from: Barcik on Fri 13/06/2003 18:07:01
Chris, many forums have a separate boards for these "Hi, I'm new threads". With the recent amount of them, don't you think it would be wise to create one here?
While I can see the benefit of seperating them off, I don't think a new forum would work. "I'm new" threads tend to have very little substance to them, and as Farlander says, regulars would probably never visit such a forum.
Perhaps we could do with a "Introduce yourself here" sticky thread though.
That will do quite well too.
i think that if you implemented that forum, people would post on it, but no "oldbies" would read it.
This is the example I gave Mods when we discussed it yesterday.
Imagine you and three of your closest friends form a club about... let's say, cows.
So you and your friends hang out in your little clubhouse and talk about cows all day. One day one of your friend asks if he can invite someone to join the club. Great! The more the merrier! More people means more insight into cows!
Weeks pass and more people join. Friends of friends invite people and pretty soon your little clubhouse is packet full of people you don't really know that well.
And then people slowly stop talking about cows. They start talking about forks and bumblebees and all kinds of non-cow things.
I don't think that this means the ultimate downfall of AGS or anything. Things are just different.
I still talk to a lot of the 'olbies' on IM and IRC. Nothing's really been lost.
I just doubt that a forum with this much activity is really going to foster the kind of close relationships I have with some of the people I met here a few years ago.
GO AND MAKE GAMES, DAMMIT!
What I think that was great attempt to make people closer few months ago, was the Team Challenge. Yeah, it turned out that no one managed to do the game in time that was set, but at least as a newbie like me, it was good to team-work a bit and get more inside with the older members.
I don't quite see the reason why many of the oldbies are against the General forum. As the thing is (liked stated also in this topic few times) that it's a simple fact that whatever you do or whatever you like, you get bored (maybe too big word to use, but) in it as time goes by. And thinking of that, I think it's only good that people have change to "take off" from AGS inside the AGS-community with General forum.
Also what can we do if someone finds his/her interest all gone? Wish him/her good luck in the future. It might be hard to do, but it's part of life some times. Part of "e-life" too, sadly.
I should write my posts when I'm awake so that some could understand, but... ...just try. :)
Having 1000+ people here shouldn't be a problem. Who says you should make friends with everyone? I mean let's suppose your in school or in big business. Do you know all your school- and work mates? Hardly.
People get to learn who they like and who they don't. It might give us a conflict here and there, but as long as you concentrate being friends with the ones you like and not fighting the ones you don't, everything should go just fine.
Well, maybe what I wanted to say is that as the community grows, don't try too hard to read everything about anything. That helps a lot.
Obviousness perhaps, hope I didn't bore anyone of the community. ;)
You just proved your other theory too Rode, you killed the conversation.
I still love you.
:P
m0ds
typical generation conflict
this community act just as a real miniworld (a babyworld i'd say) except the fact there are no intercourse on the boards
a colony of 1000 pelegrins trying to find a meaning to their life running straight forward to a unique goal that is...... spending a night with CJ
or maybe not
Pétaglair "le gentil français rigolo que tout le monde deteste et qui s'en fout"
this kind of saddens me
i'm not trying to pick a fight but who are you and who is anyone to say the boards are worse now than they were?
so what if 2ma2 isn't around so much, just cause he's been around a long time doesn't make him better than someone coming in now. now don't get me wrong i love 2ma2 and all his John Malkovichyness
how come no one is missing squalman? no one talks about motive 1 master anymore and that was a while ago, the same with Mr Davis
who was it that brought this up towards the end of last year, saying that the forum was getting dumb and damn the new people for doing it
i think that's such a silly attitude to take because as far as i remember the forums have always been like this, sure maybe there was a month when people posted philosophy or whatever [as if that is better or worse than any other topic] but there are always dumb posts and there are always interesting posts and those are completely subjective
lgm says the forums are uninteresting, it seems like a lot of people are having a really good time. would you rather that you were having a good time and other people weren't?
"and I agree, that things are heading the wrong way." barcik says
what's the right way? this is a general forum for whatever, you want to talk about something serious do it, you don't want to then don't. to post a state of the forums thread is like pointing out a problem you see and not actually trying to fix it
why not instead of doom mongering you post an interesting thread that people may want to think about that would "raise the level of the forums" or whatever you feel is necessary
this just drags everyone down, old people insulting new people, new people and old people being afraid to start a thread if they want too...
maybe i missed the point of this thread but in conclusion
who says not having 2ma2 and helm is a bad thing? they are living their lives and i'm glad they can prioritize and get things done that are important instead of hanging out on this forum?
why are we worried about the forums when we should ultimately be making games?
if you don't like the way the forum is going then try to change it to how you want, not just pointing out problems with it
mikko is also right, you can't be friends with everyone so don't try and don't lament to when the forum was only 500 people cause there are people before you who will lament to when it was just CJ and Gilbert talking about kitties
so that's that, if i overreacted then ah well, if i made someone mad it was unintentional
eric
My withdrawal from the boards these past few months has partly to do with the fact that I don't recognise the people who post here anymore, and I rarely find a topic that interests me. That doesn't make the forum a worse place, and these aren't the main reasons I've given up on ags lately. Mostly I feel the need to recharge. I've been around these boards for years and made many wonderful friends, but now I'm a bit bored of them. And generally with AGS. I mean, I haven't downloaded an AGS game for about 6 months. (BTW eric you never gave me that link). But it's only natural to be a little full of AGS since I have been medling with it for so long. Chris is totally right.
Still that doesn't mean I quit either the boards or the making of AGS games I just need a break to regain my appetite.
That's all about me
As for the forums, I think we shouldn't be elitists. Newbies are most welcome. Hell, 99% of them acts a lot better than me when I was a newbie. So we old ags guys just need to adapt to the new way of things.
What the hell happened to me? I'm way to serious lately!
Either way, I'm not wearing any pants!
I agree with Eric and Rode and a few others 100%. These forums have been "going downhill" according to some experts for about three years, and I honestly don't see much difference between now and then. People come and go, but the general atmosphere has stayed the same.
"why are we worried about the forums when we should ultimately be making games?"
Couldn't agree with you more. The games. Isn't that why we're here? I know I shouldn't judge, since it's been years since I've finished a game :P but I know that years from now, the games will always be more important than any pretentious discussion about philosophy or politics or cows or kitties.
Does that mean I'll start working on my games? Um.. No.. probably not.
cows are important thanx to them you can the milk to put with your cereals and the meet in your burgers
ok games are important but cows as well
but i agree for kitties they are stupid and unuseful
Pétaglair
(When i read this post i realize i'm not english but french and a bit tired also)
AGS civilization is decadent. We need a strong militant leadership to revitalise by conquest.
who would we invade? some CS forums?
let's invade australia
so that we would be able to see if it exist or not
I wasn't really complaining. I may seem like I am.. But I'm not.
The forums are different, I accept that. All I really wanted to know is where they went and what they think about the boards now o_0
Oh well.. No hard feelings, eh?
(m0ds! I thought you loved me!!!)
From my perspective, you're little different from the new guys LGM, just as I'm no different to you in the eyes of the uber oldies.
We're all dudes here.
The concept that there are genuine oldiesis perspective dependent. We have a forum, lets take the ills of greater prosperity along with the good. Forming a clique of oldies or "real agsers" is a tad counter productive.
Las naranjas rulez
totally d'accord
Btw are there people on this forum that are not interesting in making adventure games at all?...
kind of "fanbies"...
LGM
don't overreact to this post it's a real interesting and adult question in relation with the topic
edit: actually i didn't really read what LAS posted but i said he rulez mostly because i like him
I agree with the people who are saying that we'er all here to work on games, and the people who say the forums are still interesting.
I can't even remember how long I have been back and forth to these forums one way or place or another and I am gonna have to agree. Other then faces only one thing has changed. Amount.
This community is the largest it has ever been. As well is growing at a steady pace. However, if you would of asked me one year ago I would have said the same thing. This place has always been growing and changing. One thing I have learned about this community which may be lacking lately is creative effort.
Every ounce of work and time you dedicate to this community whether it is making a game, creating Insta-game, Getting a competition together, Making a tutorial, Helping a newbie, Giving input on Images on how to improve...whatever. It makes the community grow and swell with everything we all love and care about.
If you truely care about this community work hard on a game. Make a tutorial. Update AGSFunk (Cause no way in hell am I gonna do it). Give some people free hosting. Do whatever you can...And expect nothing in return.
And for the love of things fuzy and dead send CJ some jaffa cakes or something. He does all of the above and more...and never asked for anything. This community is everything because of him and for that alone we owe him every ounce of creativity we can muster.
Also, us 'oldbies' have discussed everything you can imagine Six times over. Some of us have been around here before Internet Ad's were big so we have had a lot of time to talk. Like butch said...we need some recharging time. Just like a good friend. sometimes you just need some time apart to grow and expand and when you get back together you can share all this new knowledge and experience. I have been somewhat dorment the past few months but not in vane. We will come back when we feel ready and we will share all we can...This place is to special to leave forever. It is a prison paradise.
CJ is so important for me that i took an insurance in case something happened to him
They say they will replace him within two weeks or else they refund if he is out of print
more seriously(i'm forced to say that because people are not used to seeing me serious)
I'm making a game that really means something to me and this forum is everything that i could expect and even more...the editor on its own is not enough to make a game that need to be interesting and fun
For the topics don't expect to motivate people by telling them what they say is boring.....you want fun? bring the fun,you want love?bring the love and so on
If yourself have nothing to say you cannot blame others for being in the same situation, it could happen that nobody has nothing to say....
Me for example i wasted all my energy and now i have only serious and boring things to say
bed time
Pétaglair
The people here are great, in my eyes. Newbies/oldbies, whoeverthehell...unless you're an ass on perpose.
Of course people change and people fade away, it sucks, but yes, we must get over it. There's lots of people we're all going to miss, but we can still keep in touch can't we? ...if their not dead, anyway.
Some day Chris is going to stop updating AGS, and maybe make a final version, unless he gives it to someone else to update.
Where's Chris gonna' go? Probably not far, I'm sure he'd poke his head in 'n out of these forums from time to time.
It's gonna happen anyway, we just need to except it.
We're supposed to be here because we love Adventure Games, and we want to make them ourselves (not because the forums are "going downhill"). AGS gives us the power to do so. I've been here since 2001 and I've promised everyone here like 2,037 games...and have I released anything? Hell no, the forums are damn addicting. It's everyones fault, I think, that we don't get anything done here ;) We like eachother too much...or are just plain damned lazy (like me).
--Snake
I've never said i like anyone of you people (well except las naranjas) i'm just feeding myself with your souls that gives my the energy to work on my game,release the best game ever and become the evil king of this forum...
Mwahahahha
ho ho ho
huhu
oh?
well good night it's 5:00 am in france the cock is singing (cocrico, cock'a' doodle-doo, kikeriki, purr)
happy to be back on the forum
unlike some paople say it's the same: old mates new mates, new enemies, fat jokes, australians
strange newbies, nostalgic oldbies, unexplained mysterious english words,stressed people, my evil double "Pétaglair" the mean one, cursed topics etc...
see you tomorrow
with maybe some uploads of my game "la porte noire" a french game
Pétaglair
The forums are diffrent, to say otherwise would be false. Different doesn't mean worse, though. It's just time working it's magic. Here, I'll give you a nice little analagous true life story to show the forum evolution.
Throughout my high school years (just to give you a frame of reference) I belonged to my temples youth group, all four years. The first year was my favorite year. We were a small group, maybe 15, and we all knew each other. However, as the years past us by, my friends in upper classes went on to college. So by the fourth year I only knew my best friends from my class year and maybe some other people from a year or two back, but only on friendly terms. The youth group maybe gained 5 member out of that original 15 that regularly went. Yet, to me, it wasn't as enjoyable. Why?
For the same reason that's happening here. With time comes change. People lose interest, and soon you notice your friends aren't posting as much, so you don't either. And, yeah, you make attempts to meet some of the newer crowd, and they're a good crowd. Yeah, they seem to be posting silly crap, that for some reason you yourself can't remember doing the same thing, back when you were new. They seem to be taking over the place. What happened to that old group of friends. Where are they now?
These forums are ever changing. Of course, we grow attatched to people, and when those people leave the forums don't feel the same. And when you first enter here, everything, to you, is as it has always been. So you dive right in and make as many friends as you can. Eager to please the community.
The truth is, the forums really haven't changed at all, just you. You're just in a different phase of a cycle.
-MillsJROSS
Let us boldly where no man has ever been going.. TO INFINITY AND EVEN FURTHER!!!
Hmm, I think I fucked that quote up!
Anyway, let's shed our skin and let those who've left get on with their lives.
Meanhwile, let's just get on with making this a good place to show your creative output by making a game.
I think we're starting to shift from a place where people talk about topics that interest them into a place where people use topics as a place to talk in. That's not exactly my kind of thing, hence I'm not posting as often as I used to.
Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 14/06/2003 00:29:51
"and I agree, that things are heading the wrong way." barcik says
what's the right way? this is a general forum for whatever, you want to talk about something serious do it, you don't want to then don't. to post a state of the forums thread is like pointing out a problem you see and not actually trying to fix it
why not instead of doom mongering you post an interesting thread that people may want to think about that would "raise the level of the forums" or whatever you feel is necessary
You are right, Eric, I was too harsh with my words.
And I too intend to post something big, as soon as I get of my lazyass.
The feeling of a little cozy community is indeed gone, and well, there's nothing to do about it.
Also, I think a lot of the criticism doesn't exist because of the quality, but because of the quantity. Gen forum is like a busy hive now. But, hey, you are right, Eric, no use to rant about it. My apologies.
Oh, and one more thing. I hate you LasNaranjas.
Oh, I recognize this all too much...
I used to be frequent visitor of a swedish James Bond-forum for a long time, and both posting and reading posts was a joy. I got lots of friends there, and I even met some of them in real life.
But recently my interest in those wonderful movies started to fade, and I saw other things in life. I didn't visit the forums that much anymore, except for the odd discussion about how bad the forums had turned out... And as the community started to grow, I also felt that everything had been discussed over and over again... It wasn't as fun talking about "Who is the best Bond-villain ever?" as it had been when I was twelve.
I still go there sometimes, and I might be seen as an "oldbie" there, but I am nowhere as active as I used to be.
Now I've discovered AGS in all its beauty, and since I'm quite new, everything still is fun - But I don't doubt that one day my interest in these forums will fade too...
Oh, now I'm all depressed. Great.
Let's just finish saying that I hope that it will take a very long time before I grow tired of this wonderful community and its games... ;D
(some idiotic program just navigated to a different URL in this window and when I pressed "Back" I lost everything I'd written. damnit!)
I'm just a newb, so I don't have the same perspective as many of the veteran members, but I have seen this type of thing happen countless times in many internet communities. A notable example is rec.games.miniatures.warhammer, which has existed since, if I recall correctly, 1994 or 1995. There are members who are still around from the first year, and even some who helped found it. Obviously, there are fewer and fewer of these by the year, but the situation over there is much more extreme than the one over here. People who have been around less than three or four years are seen as newbies, and aren't really acknowledged by the vets. I think that here at AGS it's a slightly better situation. I'm sure that this type of thing pops up every once in a while, but I'm really glad that the majority opinion seems to lean towards no oldies board, and that things aren't really getting worse but rather it's just a basically inevitable cycle.
Of course, I'm a bit biased, only having been here a few months, but as I've said I have personally seen these tendencies in at least three or four other communities of which I've been a part. It's really no big deal, to be honest, and when all the oldies startto have such mentalities, it really makes things uncomfortable for newbies, and gives them the impression that they can never be part of the group. I'm not saying I feel that way, I'm just saying I've seen that happen elsewhere. Remember, everybody was a newbie once.
It's all a matter of perspective. Of course if you've been here three years then the topics will seem more jouvenile than when you joined- because you are three years older now than you were then. And of course the joke threads and the favourite ags game threads and the inane question threads and the angst threads will seem lame and uninteresting- because you've seen them all before, whereas the newbies will be having a whale of a time releasing all their pent up philosophical energies ^__^ or... something.
As for some of those regulars leaving, I can sort of understand it, despite the fact I've been here just less than a year.
I used to go to a Monkey Island newsgroup a lot, and there were only a few of us regulars, maybe not even 20, but it was a fun place. There was Skyfox from The SCUMM Bar, other website creators and big MI fans, and all we would discuss was Monkey Island, in great depth. In my simple-minded youth I wasn't getting bored of that. Anyway, eventually the board got more and more popular with some becoming very regular posters, but the topics became less and less MI-related and more to do with crazy fan fiction about time-travelling talking burgers etc., which was all a bit too much for us people who just wanted to discuss how great Largo's theme was, or why Guybrush's hair colour has changed, or what the 'secret' was (hoo boy, that always creates a long thread). Soon all the old regulars got a bit bored with the silliness of it all and left. I just think it's natural for someone who's got very used to the way things usually are to not really fit in with the big changes.
I only arrived here a little under a year ago, and I've not produced a game. I've posted on the forum quite a few times, but I have long times keeping away from AGS and everything to do with it (it's not my major hobby, it's something I just dip into when I have the time). The forums have always seemed kinda fun though, and don't get worse for me really, because I don't pay a lot of attention to the quality of the threads...I just log in a few times a week and see what interests me. Perhaps once you get absorbed in the forum (as is easy to do) it's inevitable it will turn sour over time. As Rincewind says about the Bond villains threads, it gets less exciting.
But yeah, some of those dudes do have other reasons for neglecting the forums, so it doesn't always apply. I'll definitely miss some of those guys if we see less of them, but that's the way it goes.
As for the 'oldbies forum', when it comes down to it, thats a really bad idea. It creates a nasty division of forum members that would probably worsen the situation if anything.