Summer means no religion or politics?

[Vince Twelve]

I say that killing people is wrong, but I haven't killed nobody yet, so I can's say what punishment is coming to people who did.

Can I just say that the word "yet" here is scaring me?

[Jim Reed]

Speachless...=D
My stupidity amazes me sometimes. Don't worry, I'm not planing to kill anyone, anyday.

[SSH]

So Nacho seems to be freely admitting he's not intelligent enough to debate the big bang and yet he believes it anyway because some special people wearing white lab coats tell him its true.

Substitute "Big bang" for "God" and "white lab coats" for "preist's robes" and its hard to spot the difference...

[rharpe]

This is a cliche way to get the forums revived...

As a Catholic, I can't see how I can shut off religion and politics for the summer. My religion is a part of me and my way of life. The morals of my religion sync up with my political views. (I guess you can't separate church and state after all.)

It's sad to see people here that claim a religion yet don't stand behind it.

(This ought to keep this topic running for some time now!) 

[Oliwerko]

Nacho, I don't really see what you're after here. Is it the church/book christians like Jim here that go onto your nerves, or just every believer?

For me, for example, your questions doesn't really matter. I'm not interested in any testament rules, it doesn't matter for me if and when there was a big bang, how the earth was created and so on. Belief (as I see it) is not about proving anything, it's not about proving that monkeys have soul and shouldn't be annihilated.

Your questions certainly make sense, but answering them and proving something is impossible, as you surely know. I would too ask these questions some church/book/rules christian blindly following what someone told him. Is there these people that you ask them, or simply any believer?

Because as I said, I think there's a huge difference between claiming to be a believer based on going to church and blindly following some 'rules', and believing in something higher, trying to be generally good, etc.

[Snarky]

So Nacho seems to be freely admitting he's not intelligent enough to debate the big bang and yet he believes it anyway because some special people wearing white lab coats tell him its true.

Substitute "Big bang" for "God" and "white lab coats" for "preist's robes" and its hard to spot the difference...

I've long since lost track of what this bit of the discussion is meant to prove, but I don't think it's unreasonable to trust in what scientists tell us about the Big Bang. The technical details may be inaccessible to us laypeople, but that doesn't mean we can't grasp the processes by which the experts have come to their conclusions. I mean, we understand on a general level what astronomical observations mean, we understand that data can be fed into mathematical formulas, we understand that if a model makes sense of things we know, and successfully predicts things we didn't know, we gain increasing confidence that it does provide a good description of how things really work.

Most of us probably even know about some of the observations that led scientists to believe in the Big Bang, like the observation that the universe is expanding, seen as a red-shift in the spectral absorption lines of light from distant stars, and we have probably heard about weird things happening to time and space under extreme conditions (like the massive gravity around a black hole), know that these effects have been empirically validated, and can follow how they might apply to the early universe (being tiny and super-dense) in such a way that there would be no time or space "before" the Big Bang (even if we can't intuitively wrap our minds around what that means).

In other words, it's not blindly putting our faith in "people in white lab coats" (which I don't think astrophysicists wear, anyway). It trusting in a process we do grasp, having a well-grounded belief that the professionals know what they're talking about, and accepting an explanation that we vaguely understand and can sort-of make sense of. That said, whether claims about what happened at the moment of the universe's beginning are robust enough (come from a solid theory without major weaknesses or omissions, have seen off all attempts to refute them, have no serious challengers, and have been generally accepted by the scientific community for a significant period of time, etc.) to be asserted as scientific fact I don't know. My sense is that they are not.

I can't even start to compare or contrast this with religious belief, because I see no parallel in the first place. What's the resemblance? Do Christians believe that there is evidence of God's existence, but that it's so technical that only the experts (priests) can understand it (although anyone could in principle acquire the ability)?

[Nacho]

So Nacho seems to be freely admitting he's not intelligent enough to debate the big bang and yet he believes it anyway because some special people wearing white lab coats tell him its true.

Substitute "Big bang" for "God" and "white lab coats" for "preist's robes" and its hard to spot the difference...

So, you finally admitt that being a believer is undistinguishable from a non believer? Thanks. That' s what I wanted to hear from the beginning. (Anyway my belief doesn't need to trust that the couples of all the animals fit in a boat... Only that big masses create singularities)

Babar: You replied to the questions very smartly, with something that "non-believers" also have: Common sense. Shouldn't the believers reply with something unified and superior than what us, mere non-enlighted by God, atheistics have?

So, basically we've seen that being a believer doesn't make you superior, smarter or better than a non believer, something they have claimed for centuries. So, as someone said: "God probably doesn't exist, so, don't worry and be happy" or, for not to offend anybody "If God exists believing in him doesn't make a difference, so, behave with common sense, and don't waste time worshipping him or energies trying to convince your kids of his existence: Allow them to be free to decide when they are adults".

[Phemar]

Well I guess summer does mean religion then haha...

[Babar]

Babar: You replied to the questions very smartly, with something that "non-believers" also have: Common sense. Shouldn't the believers reply with something unified and superior than what us, mere non-enlighted by God, atheistics have?

I don't think being a believer automatically entitles a person to super-intelligence, although that would be a nice power . What is truth is truth, whether told by a theist or atheist.

[SSH]

So, you finally admitt that being a believer is undistinguishable from a non believer? Thanks. That's what I wanted to hear from the beginning. (Anyway my belief doesn't need to trust that the couples of all the animals fit in a boat... Only that big masses create singularities)

Since you clearly don't understand the physics, how can you judge the relatrive liklihood of these two things?

So, basically we've seen that being a believer doesn't make you superior, smarter or better than a non believer, something they have claimed for centuries.

Who claimed that, exactly? Have you a quote? It's certainly not something I've ever claimed. Christians are not better behaved or more honest although they should strive to be. They are not cleverer. They are not superior. They are just saved.

[Jim Reed]

...church/book christians like Jim here...

Whoa there...
Let's get this straight, so we don't get confused.

I don't know what do you mean by church/book Christians, but if it means that you try to not break any commandements and generaly not doing to people anything that you would not anyone do to yourself, and belive in God as the true lord of all things, well yes I am.
If it means going to church regulary, and reading the bible every day, saying prayers before eating, sleeping, shiting or any other similar purpose, and all around being a stereotype, broom-up-their-ass movielike Christian, then I'm not.

I was baptised at the age of 13, and got my second and third sacraments in the following month.
I even don't know all the ten commandments.
I did some fucked up things in my life, including a lot of things that I am not proud of.

Anyone who thinks that I am special, because my prayers have been answered, can stop right now. I believe that the mustard seed thing is true, so anyone can do this. Also, my faith is heavily influenced by shamanism, explicitly, don Juan Matus'es teachings, in the first four books of the series by Carlos Castaneda. Those teachings bring a clear light to many questions that people ask and the teachings seem very compatible to Christianity. Also some of my knowledge is leart from books, some through expirience and some through word of mouth by more powerfull men than me.

I asked in my first post, has someone here read Castaneda, but I can ask again if you skimmed it that time.
So, has anyone?

[Nacho]

Who claimed that, exactly? Have you a quote? It's certainly not something I've ever claimed. Christians are not better behaved or more honest although they should strive to be. They are not cleverer. They are not superior. They are just saved.

And a human being of infinite goodness who was born in the middle of the Amazon and had no chance to know "God" not?

Then your God is not a being of infinite goodness... He is just a ticket reviewer.

You haven't still answered to my question... If your kids are not what you expected to be... would you kill them drowning in the bath tube? As I guess your answer is no... How can you follow a being who did it?

Mr. Andrew... Are you aware that if you were born 1,000 years ago you would probably deffending things like "earth was created around 10,000 years ago in 6 days", with the same conviction and devotion that the one you use now to deffend the "we are saved" message? How can you be so convinced about one specific part of the message in particular when some other things (things which convinced people as much as you are now) have prooven to be incorrect?

[Oliwerko]

If it means going to church regulary, and reading the bible every day, saying prayers before eating, sleeping, shiting or any other similar purpose, and all around being a stereotype, broom-up-their-ass movielike Christian, then I'm not.

Then it wasn't properly adressed, I apologize. You sounded like you were.

What I'm trying to say is that belief and common "good" sense is very close, that's all.

[Ghost]

You haven't still answered to my question... If your kids are not what you expected to be... would you kill them drowning in the bath tube? As I guess your answer is no... How can you follow a being who did it?

Wait. Wait! So you are saying god really did drown kids in a bath tube? You did, you know. It's right there in that quote. God came to some place where there was a bath tube and drowned kids in it. Taking the sentence really literally, it also were SSH's kids.

This is getting ridiculous, really- do you realise that you're twisting words all the time, and then come up with such a thing? And that too will get twisted and again and again... really, I do enjoy a discussion (even if I disagree), and I really respect you for having a strong opinion, but... no, that one really cracked me.

[Nacho]

You haven't still answered to my question... If your kids are not what you expected to be... would you kill them drowning in the bath tube? As I guess your answer is no... How can you follow a being who did it?

Wait. Wait! So you are saying god really did drown kids in a bath tube? You did, you know. It's right there in that quote. God came to some place where there was a bath tube and drowned kids in it. Taking the sentence really literally, it also were SSH's kids.

This is getting ridiculous, really- do you realise that you're twisting words all the time, and then come up with such a thing? And that too will get twisted and again and again... really, I do enjoy a discussion (even if I disagree), and I really respect you for having a strong opinion, but... no, that one really cracked me.

He "drowned his descendants" with the universal deluge because "they decived him", yes, "he did".

[Ghost]

Right. Just wanted to show the dangers of semantics. Because I really think this is what the thread comes down to- spinning words. There are some strong positions here though, so I'll still hang on for the ride.

[miguel]

Wow!
Summer does mean religion after all.
And God is not dead. Sorry Nietzsche.
Well, I've got a lot to do at my café because it is August and my town is packed with tourist so I really cannot answer you all. My exceptions will be of course Mr.Natcho  
and KhrisMUC who does not know that Heaven has a piece of land with his name on it.

Seriously, I think Vince and Misj' have started a very interesting dialogue here, Tuomas and Babar have clearly something to say on the subject,
and my advice to the others is that you should keep the low jokes for another thread. It breaks the concentration of who's reading several pages in tiny letters and what happens is that people are answering people with unrelated comments in the middle.

The point of this thread was to get everybody talking and I guess it was successful. If we didn't do it right or the correct way (me included) than it's because we are still learning.

P.S: Natcho, asking irrelevant questions twice is a sign that you really know what you're going to get.
      And every time you speak you force me to come back here. Please be more responsible. There are 16 year kids reading this stuff who might be nutty enough to believe you.
     

[Jim Reed]

If it means going to church regulary, and reading the bible every day, saying prayers before eating, sleeping, shiting or any other similar purpose, and all around being a stereotype, broom-up-their-ass movielike Christian, then I'm not.

Then it wasn't properly adressed, I apologize. You sounded like you were.

What I'm trying to say is that belief and common "good" sense is very close, that's all.

Don't worry, I don't get offended that easily. =D
Well, if you mean that not doing anything to others, one would not want to be done to himself, I agree with you.

If you mean that common good sense implies, that a lot of thing that are considered nice let's say in most of the sterotype world (meaning civilized more or less), go hand in hand with the techings of how to be good to others, from, let's say, the bible, I will agree with you on that, too.

Common sense is a very good thing in my opinion. A man with enough of it would eventualy discover for himself that, lieing, stealing, killing and so forth, will get him in trouble with other men, if he hasn't been told that allready, or has, but choose to ignore it, or he just forgot it.

[Nacho]

Miguel, I am not asking irrelevant questions... I am just prooving that believers can't answer the questions we atheistics can't either. So, what' s the point of believing? It gives no advantage (Well... probably believing there' s something else after passing away makes you happier... Like ignoring that you have a lung cancer and the famine in the world. Happier? Yes. Right? I doubt it.)

Nice avatar, though! ^_^

[Jim Reed]

Hmm...
-How can you, knowing that the "conviction" of the "old believers" was uncorrect, be so sure that your "conviction" is the correct one?

As I see it, everything that I haven't confirmed in reality, is suspect. I may belive that some things are thruth or lies, untill I confirm them, or the opposite.

-Do gorillas have a soul?

Yes.

-When were humans awarded with a soul?

When they are concieved.

-Did neandertals had a sould? If so, why God allowed them to be terminated?

Yes. I don't know about why God does things, but anyway, all things change, everyone must die sometime.

-If the best and kindiest golden-heart person in earth is born in a place where they don' t know God and he does not have the possibility to become a believer... can he go to heaven?

Yes.

-

Can Hitler go to heaven if he confesses his sins before passing away, if his confession was "correct" according to catholic standards?

He must, not only confess, but try to make up for it, in some way, and then he has a chance.

-If he can... what is the point of behaving propperly, if you can fix it all at the end?

The more you sin, the more you need to pay for, so having many sins, is a lot of work to clear out in your dieing moments.

-Is it okay to force your sister in law to marry her brother in law if she widowed shortly before and has no kids?

You can marry again if you have no living husband/wife. Forcing someone is a hard thing to do, and anyway you can't make choices for others, so if she married someone, it would be solely her choice.

-Who can go to heaven? Christians? Those who follow the religions of the book, muslims and jews can go to heaven as well?

Every person alive.

-What happens with those who believe in Shiva?

They pray to her =D
Matter of diety name is irrelevant, all the world abides the same rules, so if you do things right, you will go to heaven.

-What happens with the souls of those who were in earth before the old testament was written?
-What happens to you if you made a mortal sin one week before it was written in the Old Testament?
-What happens to you if you make a mortal sin that has been recently added to the Old testament, but you had no possible way to read it because the last edition of the book hasn't arrived yet to your local book store?

Rules were ther before the testament, so you would have the same consequences for the same actions, then as today.

-God can ask me to do bad things. He asked Abraham to kill his son, and he was going to do it, but fortunatelly (Thank's God, better...) HE stopped him. But he can ask us to do bad things. If he asks us to do bad things... are we good christians if we do it?

If He asks you to do something, it's your choice, and your therefore, your responsibility.
If He commands you to do it, It's His choice and His resposibility.
Anything bad that happens, when you do something that is commanded to you by God, will have no effect on you. Meaning if it's a sin, you will not suffer the consequences.

-How can we distinguish between a real God commitement and one created by a mental disorder?

Could you rephrase that, and elaborate, please.

-If the devil, disguised as God, tells us to do something bad, are we sinners or not, if we believe it was God who asked us to do it?

Your choice, your responsibilities.

-How do we judge people who acted bad if they say it was God who told them to do it?

Courts make human judgement, and God makes His judgement. If you break the rules, He will punish you exactly as much as is just.

-When bad things happens, some believers say "That's because he gave us free of will... Bad human acts are our fault, not his. He can't intervene" Okay, but he acted before to kill bad humans. He purgued the humanity with the universal deluge: Why he acted before and he does not now?

Only God knows why He does the things He does. Oh, He can say it to someone, naturally so he would then know, also.

-Can he act again, if out level of imperfection becomes too high?

Being omnipotent (most powerfull), He can do anything.
Being omnipresent (everywhere), He can see everything and act everywhere.

-How could he, being infinitelly intelligent, create a humanity that was so unperfect that he had to purgue it?

His bussiness is His bussines, simple.

-If our kids are not as perfect as we wanted, can we kill them drowning them in the bath tube?

If you make a sin, you will suffer the punishment, as you're responsible for your actions.