Summer means no religion or politics?

[miguel]

KhrisMUC, I see you get embarrassed somehow when my religion forgives and accepts who you are. Your rage is a sign of admiration more than anything. I feel that the little seed hasn't died on you yet.

RickJ, probably the only person I let down in this forums. Back in 2003 I told him I'd help on remaking the AGS Demo-Game. Even if I had no skills whatsoever (why do I think I've got them now?) he told me that every little bit of work I could do would be appreciated. Well, the following year my life changed and so did I concerning making games. So I kept quiet for a long time and when I came on the forums as a guest I never did logged in and apologize to RickJ.
Well, I guess I'll do it now.
I wish I had his clear mind and write posts like he just did.
The interview is fascinating btw.
I can't help myself but many things I said here are there on the interview.
Can you non-believers listen to it, it's a wise man first of all, and judge him after the interview, please.
 

[Matti]

KhrisMUC, I see you get embarrassed somehow when my religion forgives and accepts who you are. Your rage is a sign of admiration more than anything. I feel that the little seed hasn't died on you yet.

Now you wanna get him really angry, aren't you?

@Jim Reed:

I think your belief is nothing else than escapism, because you say that every bad thing that happens to people is part of god's plan. That's just crazy and very contraproductive - in every way. Also, Khris is right, when he's saying that you just want to make money by telling people that you can cure them. I'm convinced of that because of these two phrases of yours:

1.Some form of compensation as it's forbiden for me to work this kind of thing for free.
2.I didn't make those rules, I only abide by them.

Who's rules are you following? Gods? Is he telling you that you can't do it for free? Are you kidding?

@ the other believers:

Though I can't really get it into my mind that people are religious, I respect it in general, cause it completely depends on the person. If they deal with their belief in a mature manner and if it really helps them... well, I'm fine with it.

The main thing is that I don't get why people genuinely believe in a god just because he was raised that way. Oliwerko said - on one of these pages here - that he has a "custom belief" and that is something I can understand. A belief just cannot be something else than 'custom' imo, because I've heard of nobody that he shared a vision or sudden intuition with sombody else. And if that would actually happen - well, then it would be a 2-men-religion that has nothing to do with other people. If a christian is a christian because he read the bible or heard stories about Jesus, then I must really wonder if his mind is in mint condition... no offense, ahem.

What annoyed me the most here is the stupid discussion about how real the events in the bible are and if it's possible that there is a god. It just doesn't matter. A belief is something you believe in and that's it. Discussing the possibility of the existence of a supernatural omnipotent entity is utterly stupid, cause it leads nowhere. And the answer to it is: Well, of course there could be something like that, just like there could be a ghost in my night desk (which I don't see). But because God is something that cannot be seen and isn't affected by any/his own physical rules, because he's OMNIPOTENT, then there'S nothing left to just believe in it or not. I believe in nature, other's in god, but it's the same thing. The difference is that I just don't know where Miss Nature comes from, but that she's developing and behaving according so some rules (given by nobody) while the others think that god created and IS nature.

Okay, blabla. My point being: I don't really care about other people's beliefs as long as

a) Nobody's acting crazy / talking bullshit / killing people etc. just because he has a certain believe
b) Nobody's escaping reality, doesn't use his brain and is laying the blame of men-made shit on god

Altogether I'm with Khris and Vince here...

Let me close with a quote of Bart Simpson regarding tha major religions:
"The little stupid differences are nothing next to the big stupid similarities".

[miguel]

Hahaha, I sincerely hope there's a disguised smile just before his next post Mr Matti.
Well thanks for being tolerant, it's very precious this days, let me tell you that all true Christians question themselves a lot. I myself had serious doubts when I was a teenager because it's all about human nature to do that. Even when my life wasn't going anywhere and I couldn't see any future I had no time to God.
So, I guess it is a personal choice and a well thought one.

[Jim Reed]

@Jim Reed:

I think your belief is nothing else than escapism, because you say that every bad thing that happens to people is part of god's plan. That's just crazy and very contraproductive - in every way. Also, Khris is right, when he's saying that you just want to make money by telling people that you can cure them. I'm convinced of that because of these two phrases of yours:

1.Some form of compensation as it's forbiden for me to work this kind of thing for free.
2.I didn't make those rules, I only abide by them.

Who's rules are you following? Gods? Is he telling you that you can't do it for free? Are you kidding?

When a man does something bad to another man, you can't blame God that he did it. You have the power of choice, but God will punish you if you did something against His rules. Therefore, He doesn't do bad things, people do them, to put it clearly.
It's not contraproductive, it's just. So God didn't kill jews in the Holocaust, Hitler(and others) did it, for example. Don't confuse God's justice with the acts of free will, please.
I'm surley not trying to make money by lieing. The rules I follow, when doing prayer healing are the same rules given to me by the man who gave me permission to it. God didn't directly give them to me. I suspect that that man was given rules also, by the man who gave him his licence, too.
Examining closely your words, you say that I can cure them. I'll repeat myself, I pray for forgiveness from God, and He cures them. So your statement is not true.

But because God is something that cannot be seen and isn't affected by any/his own physical rules, because he's OMNIPOTENT, then there'S nothing left to just believe in it or not.

God can be seen. What affects God is not known to me. He is also omnimystical (allmysterious) and cannot be comprehended in His completnes by humans. Don't confuse omnipotent here. Omnipotent means that something is all powerfull, meaning that it can do anything. You don't have to belive in fire, but if you put an open flame beneath a sheet of paper, it will burn. So beliveing in fire doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can also not belive in God, but if you break His commandements, you will suffer the punishment, no matter what you believe in.

[Khris]

Seriously miguel, stop it or I'll pray to the Spaghetti Monster for Him to bitch-slap you with his noodly appendage.

I'm still interested though what exactly you believe and what you see as a metaphor. E.g. was there a talking snake?
And will you get dizzy with joy when you learn that you have terminal cancer because you're going to heaven soon?
What do you make of God's rule that people who slaughtered babies can get to heaven if they find to Jesus but the nice, helpful guy next door will burn in hell for all eternity if he denies the existence of the holy ghost?
And why do you find this rule just?

Would you have found to Jesus if you grew up in Baghdad, or Bombay?

Did you watch the piece of Zeitgeist I linked you to?
And if you did, how can you seriously still be a Christian without shutting off your brain completely?

@Jim Reed:
Where did the first healer get his license from?
And if you don't actually heal people, why did you say so earlier? And if the only thing you do is pray for forgiveness for them, why is that restricted by so many rules?
And are you just making this shit up as you go along, because it sure sounds like it?


I believe in Thor now, btw.

[Jim Reed]

@Jim Reed:
Where did the first healer get his license from?
And if you don't actually heal people, why did you say so earlier? And if the only thing you do is pray for forgiveness for them, why is that restricted by so many rules?
And are you just making this shit up as you go along, because it sure sounds like it?

I don't know, but Jesus healed and told His apostoles to go and do the same. It's in the bible.
I said that I can help, not heal. Read my posts carefully, and you'll see it clear as day. I could quote it, also.

Many is a matter of opinion. I'll repeat myself: I didn't make the rules, I only abide by them

No, I don't just make this shit up as I go along.  What it sounds like is a matter of opinion.

[miguel]

KhrisMUC,
I understand your questions and will try to answer them:

-The Bible was written by several persons during a long period of time, and in most cases by people with no literary skills. I do believe God spoke to them by spiritual ways and do believe that they did see the snake. God revealed Himself to show mankind they were sinners and a way of living according to what He wants.
-I will feel very sad if I find that I have such a disease. Although my faith would surely help me face the adversity.
-It's purely a way of telling people that they should accept God, really. Fear was used then as a way of obedience. You can say it's wrong but maybe God thought there wasn't other way.
-I find that "rule" just because it cannot be 'read' like that. You cannot take the Bible literally, by now you should have accepted that.
-I would have heard of Him, of course. And who in its right mind can not like Jesus?

Conspiracy theories do not interest me. Maybe the Man on the Moon thing does but not that much, I've seen some YouTube Videos.
But, I'll take a look out of respect for you and tell you about it.  
A.Huxley did it before and it didn't stick.

[Domino]

Nacho will shoot you all dead. 

[Lionmonkey]

Still waiting for that "Ooh, Lionmonkey, you're sooo smart and wise and cool, you've actully completely beaten all of us in pholosophy, rhetorics and whatnot!!! Now just leave us alone!" post.

[Nacho]

Hahahaha, Domino!

[Khris]

I said that I can help, not heal. Read my posts carefully, and you'll see it clear as day. I could quote it, also.

You said you "do prayer healing". Twice.
I don't want to get into semantics here, but when I read "prayer healing", I think of person A praying that sick person B gets healthy again. This is done all the time, but since you're taking money for it while trying to be a good person, you must be convinced that it works. And you are, going by your own words.

Later you said you just "pray for forgiveness" and it's up to God to heal the sick person. Going by what you said about God, there's no guarantee he'll answer your prayer; so when do you get paid? Only if the person gets better?
Or is there a money-back guarantee?

And if prayer healing is a valid and useful way to treat sick people, why isn't it part of official medicine? Why are there numerous studies that show that prayer has no significant effect on the recovery of sick people?
I'd prefer an answer that doesn't suggest a word-wide conspiracy of doctors, scientists and "big pharma", btw.

miguel:

I understand that you don't take all of the bible literally. But what do you employ to help you decide which parts you do and which you don't?

And can you understand that I'm relying on the very same thing to ditch all of it?

And why doesn't god reveal himself to muslims, hindus or buddhists if he's the one true god? If he's still there, why does he rely on the guy who walked through Baghdad and convinced you to believe in Jesus although you were circumcised and then brought up by traditional muslims who pounded their faith into you since you were little?
And do you realize that as a muslim kid, you'd think that this guy must be converted or killed?
Can you at least acknowledge that convincing a young muslim that Christianity is the way to go is bordering on impossible?

Why do you feel sad if you find out that you're about to enter heaven to spend all eternity in bliss at His side?

Why do you think, when given the option that A) there's an invisible man who controls everything and answers prayers and B) religion is still abundant because it is a very effective political tool to keep people in line, that option A is the truth, despite Occam's Razor, a principle you completely rely on in everyday life when evaluating anything besides religion, heavily suggests B to be the correct answer?

Maybe I don't like Jesus because there are certain passages in his biography suggesting that by neighbors, he was only referring to fellow tribesmen.

---

I'm glad we agree on something, namely that conspiracy theories are silly. It's interesting though that the most ridiculous of all of them caught your interest. There's hardly another conspiracy theory which has been as thoroughly and elegantly crushed as the belief NASA faked the moon landings.

[SSH]

Of course, Occam's Razor menas that the simplest answer is usually the right one. Many people might think that an all powerful being making everything is somewhat simpler in concept than extrapolating back billions of years through time and trying to understand quarks, leptons, hadrons,  superstrings and dark matter.

Maybe I don't like Jesus because there are certain passages in his biography suggesting that by neighbors, he was only referring to fellow tribesmen.

Err, that's the exact opposite of what it says...

[Nacho]

What matters what "Jesus" said? St. Paul rewrote it all to make it more suitable for greco-roman cultures...

[Akatosh]

GODDIDIT is the shortest answer by a long shot, but also the most inaccurate and least useful one.

The thing is, we can explain a very decent amount of natural phenomenons without assuming the existence of an all-powerful being, and we're making progress in the other areas. So far, there is no evidence that such a being has to exist - so why slap on that unneccesary addition?

[miguel]

To Khris:
I think you'd want me to say Nothing from the Bible is to be taken literally, but the thing is that I have faith, I'm a  believer and you don't. Therefore some things I cannot prove to you but you cannot prove them wrong to me because you don't believe in them, so you assume they don't exist. For you there is only the material side of things and everything must be on a equation while for me there is the God factor that holds everything together and gives it meaning.

Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists do follow the same God but in different ways. Actually they too have the equivalent to my Gospels and to study them (both the Christian Gospels or, say, the Cabala) and truly understand their meaning takes a lot of time. People from all religions dedicate their lives doing it. New Christians like me (New has a capital letter because it is the beginning of the sentence, it's not a new cult, sorry) gather and exchange knowledge and even if some parts are quite difficult to interpret for me or for them it is clear that the word that moves us to do it is love.
My step son shares his class with a Muslim kid. The funny thing is that the other kids get curious about his culture and habits but never went against it or mock him. His colour though is another question. Looks like modern society still has a long way to go according to the most primary impulses.
I guess both science and religion can play a part on spreading tolerance, not difference.
Back to your question, would it be difficult for me to convince a young Muslim?
If he lives with his parents and I am in Baghdad then yes, of course.
If I'd find the same kid some years later in college, then I could have a chance.
By the way, if you can understand and put yourself in the role of a young Muslim and imagine what his feelings/thoughts might be, then why is it so difficult to you to go back some millennium before and imagine what an Hebrew thought when he got to know God.

Spending all eternity at God's side is not my destiny, I do not deserve it. But I can let myself die in peace because I hope to be even with the world.
I said it before, KhrisMUC, Heaven is a state of mind. It's making peace with God and Jesus. If I do find all God's grace in a beautiful garden after my life here then the joy will be tremendous.

As for your last questions I believe that by now it's pretty clear how strong religion is.
Why? Well, consider that it's the organization with the poorest propaganda and advertisement ever. Consider that official statements coming out of the Vatican are at least 3 decades later than what the world has evolved to stablish as acceptable and common. Consider that religion members lack glamour and cool. Consider that religion has to keep up with multi billion science projects that consistently deny what religion cannot prove.

"Forgive them father because they don't know what they're doing."

SSH: exactly  
           

[Nacho]

And remember, Akatosh! Some centuries ago "God" was the answer for everything!

Old days:

God 100 % I------------------------------------------------------------I Science 0%

Nowadays, things are changing...

God 20% I--------------I---------------------------------------------I Science 80%.

But of course, Believers are not able even to think of the possibility that this "20%" is going to move to "0%" one of this days... They ASSUME they know the future and that "God" is going to remain,  immobile as a rock, for ever. Believers do not also believe in God, they also predict future! Predicting future is the base of their beliefs. Wow...

I preffer to say a humble "I don't know" when I am asked if science will do the 100%. They not.

Of course, I am the unpolite...

I think you'd want me to say Nothing from the Bible is to be taken literally, but the thing is that I have faith, I'm a  believer and you don't. Therefore some things I cannot prove to you but you cannot prove them wrong to me because you don't believe in them, so you assume they don't exist. For you there is only the material side of things and everything must be on a equation while for me there is the God factor that holds everything together and gives it meaning.

Well... I can prove that a couple of all the animals in the world does not fit in an ark as the one described in the Bible.

[Jim Reed]

You said you "do prayer healing". Twice.
I don't want to get into semantics here, but when I read "prayer healing", I think of person A praying that sick person B gets healthy again.

Semantics, yes. A prays (to God), sick person B gets healed by Him (God). I don't see what confuses you here. When I say: I can help, I don't say: I can heal.

This is done all the time, but since you're taking money for it while trying to be a good person, you must be convinced that it works. And you are, going by your own words.

It's the mustard seed thing. If you belive in God, He will help them, after you asked Him to, surely, but the extent will depend on His(God's) will.
If there are people who lie that they can do it, it's not for me to judge or punish them.
I take compensation, as it's ordered for me to take it. That doesn't mean money explicitly. I would like to do it for free, but breaking the rules given to me upon gaining my licence/approval, without consulting the man who gave them to me, would I think, nullify it. So I wouldn't do that.
Yes, I am convinced, I did it many times, it was done to me many times also. It worked every time.

Later you said you just "pray for forgiveness" and it's up to God to heal the sick person. Going by what you said about God, there's no guarantee he'll answer your prayer; so when do you get paid? Only if the person gets better?
Or is there a money-back guarantee?

There is a guarantee. If you believe in Him he will allways listen. Believing in Him means a lot of things, btw, not just: Yeah there's God and there is me, lalalala, I'm going out now, see you later. If you believe in God, you believe He is omnipresent (everywhere at all times), infinite to say it, so whenewer you pray, whereever you may find yourself at that time, He is there also to listen. There is no blanket you can crawl under if you feel like it, to get away. As He is everywhere, that means inside of you and other people, too. So doing anything against anyone else, is doing it against Him also. As he is a part of us all, we are all in a way, brothers and sisters.
Payment for my service is a must for me, but you can give any amount you feel you owe me. I will not say that it's too much, or too little.
Believing in Him, I cannot find a situation in which it will not work. Every single time I saw it, it worked. I am convinced.

And if prayer healing is a valid and useful way to treat sick people, why isn't it part of official medicine? Why are there numerous studies that show that prayer has no significant effect on the recovery of sick people?

In my country, there are many people who can do this, but you(KrisMUC) can go to the nearest chatolic church and ask the minister where can you find this sort of healing, and probably will get an answer, because the church grants those kind of licences.
Official medicine point's of view are just that, a point's of view. Maybe the studies are wrong in some way? I can honestly admit that I saw it work.

I'd prefer an answer that doesn't suggest a word-wide conspiracy of doctors, scientists and "big pharma", btw.

You can prefer whatever you wan't, but I'm just stating what I know, without lieing, so I'm sorry if it doesn't sometimes agree with your point of view.
And on a side note, If we all had the same point of view, the world would be pretty boring, I think.

[SSH]

What matters what "Jesus" said? St. Paul rewrote it all to make it more suitable for greco-roman cultures...

Well, once again Nacho misses the point (or consturcts a Strawman, but lets be charitable). Khrismuc (how do you pronounce that, anyway: it always sounds insulting if I say it out loud?!)  said Jesus's biography says that your neighbour is only people of a certain tribe, by which I assume he means the gospels in the Bible. However, the parable of the good samaritan in those books (no matter who wrote them or changed them) implies that everyone is your neighbour, so I was pointing out his error.

[Nacho]

Of course... Whether the words in the bible were inspired by God or just an ancient marketing exercise it's irrelevant... the only thing that matters it's the message: When I die I will go to a better place! It's so comfortating...  

[SSH]

Hmmm, time to give you your own medicine Nacho, i.e. take a tiny part of what you said and twist it to make an entirely different point...

the words in the bible were inspired by God

Glad you think so