Summer means no religion or politics?

[Nacho]

Yes, allpowerfull means just that, there is no one above God. But if He, let's say, kills a man, and says that others shouldn't do it, I would do what He tells me, and not do what He does.

There are things that are above "God", according to my experience.

-The flying spaghetti monster.
-Papa Smurf.
-Superman.
-The mighty Unicorn.

And to prove that my words are right I give you the following evidences:

-
-
-
And
-


Which are, basically, the same evidences you gave me of the existence of God.

[Akatosh]

And how come that people even ask "How can a good god do evil things?" Because that implies that they have a different view of what's evil and what isn't. Why would an omnipotent God create beings that have a different moral standard...?

You really need to work on your doublethink, KhrisMUC. There is evil in the world and there's an omnipotent entity which doesn't allow evil to happen. It's all very easy - just don't think about it. Reason is thoughtcrime! Crimestop is doubleplusgood!

[guitar_hero]

If you look at what we have achieved, I think we all deserve a pat on the back. (Sure, there have been some... less-than-pleasant occurences, but we more or less fixed them. We've come a long way from the grunting cave people who worshipped sky-grandpas because they had no explanation for thunder.)

And that way leads right into a brighter future, hm? Seriously, are you kidding me?? Just take a look at a newspaper or turn on the news on TV. Or maybe just look carefully at your own actions. Most people would even do something they know is evil. Oh, and did I mention world war II? So much on "moral sense".

Wow, that's a really fucked up way of deciding what's good and what's evil. Congratulations, you've negated tens of thousands of years of evolution of our moral sense.

In the absence of evidence for the existence of god (which is, well, the current situation), I prefer to consider good what makes people feel happy and bad what makes people fell shitty, thanks.

And how come that people even ask "How can a good god do evil things?" Because that implies that they have a different view of what's evil and what isn't.

Yeah, I think you got my point! It's a totally different concept, isn't it! The bible makes so much sense (at least, to me that is ): It's just that "I can decide what's good and evil on my own"-attitude that in the story of Adam and Eve gets between them and their maker. They weren't created with that attitude but somehow they got to this point. In the core it is so not about moral. If good=god (and his will), and evil=opposition to that, it's the relationship between god and human that is concerned. So by turning from god to themselve,s Adam and Eve turned in their relationship with god from friend to enemy.

If your god tells me to never, ever question and just mindlessly obey him, I'll stick with some alternative, thank you very much.

I would not agree on that word "mindlessly" - but yes. And if god really did not have bad things in mind for those he created that would be no propblem, right? The only question is, is god trustworthy (or: is common sense/ humanity/myself... more trustworthy)? That's what faith is about. Believing in god is all about trusting god over anything else. Which on the other hand means to give up own judgement and independency.

[Nacho]

The Bible makes sense? Hehehe...

And, on second though... Can you bring at least ONE unique and original concept in Bible?

[Khris]

guitar_hero:
When you started posting here, talking about how you're a strong critic of theology, I'd never have guessed that you're a biblical literalist who thinks it's ok, even good(!) to stone homosexuals to death.

And about World War II: We've come a long way since two thousand years ago. Like Akatosh said, some crazy evil people managed to screw up stuff badly for a whole lot of other people occasionally, but as a whole, things are way better than even a few hundred years ago, when people where tortured and burnt at the stake by pious fucks just for having red hair.
Please also note that the most violent and underdeveloped countries are also the most religious ones.

Your attitude that it's best to give up judgment and independence to follow a leader who decides what's good and bad is precisely what turns average people into Nazi goons, suicide bombers or militia who slaughter their own families.
If that's really what you call "good", you're simply a sociopath by pretty much everyone's definition.

[Misj']

I'd never have guessed that you're a biblical literalist who thinks it's ok, even good(!) to stone homosexuals to death.

I've heard that argument before that the bible states that homosexuals should be stoned to death (heard similar things about the quo'ran)...but no one ever gave me a citation. So a quick Google-search concerning 'homosexuality' and 'bible' gave me the following texts: Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9. I read them, and still don't know which one states that it's okay (or even good) to stone these people.

So please...could someone finally help me out of my misery and tell me where the bible states that homosexuals should be stoned. As I said: I've heard people say this, but can't seem to find it.

[Jim Reed]

Hahahaha, you all make me laugh =D
Anyone can learn why going against the ten commandments is wrong, on their own, without having to read/listen to them.
God made the ten commandments so that people who didn't realize what a bad thing to do is, don't make mistakes before they know that they are mistakes.

As for terrorists and the Nazi and their ilk, killing people is forbidden, whatever excuse you use to justify it.
I would only approve of killing another man, if he is trying to kill me and I have no other options.

God sends devils to do bad things, and that doesn't mean that He is evil. If He sends a devil to do his bidding that means He has a good reason to do it. Like punishing the sinfull. And if you think that God Edit: -doesn't rule- above all, including Lucifer and his minions, you're wrong. There is not a single thing that He can not do. And don't confuse a man's choice with an act from God here.

...Yeah, but I prayed to God to help me the other day, and He did, but I doubt papa smurf could do it.
That's all the proof I need of His existence.
He couldn't help me if He doesn't exist now, could He?

[guitar_hero]

guitar_hero:
When you started posting here, talking about how you're a strong critic of theology, I'd never have guessed that you're a biblical literalist who thinks it's ok, even good(!) to stone homosexuals to death.

As you don't know me, please be careful with your judging over what I would do or not do, think or not think.
Again, if god wanted someone to be stoned to dead, this would be good. It's obviuosly not something you like to hear, that's ok, but I don't find this thought hard to understand. I don't get where you're connection to literalism comes from. That's a totally different subject.

And about World War II: We've come a long way since two thousand years ago. Like Akatosh said, some crazy evil people managed to screw up stuff badly for a whole lot of other people occasionally, but as a whole, things are way better than even a few hundred years ago, when people where tortured and burnt at the stake by pious fucks just for having red hair.

Those were the euphoric thoughts of the enlightenment. Then the big war came. You have to imagine what that meant to the people and how their whole thinking got shattered. Did we learn anything from that?

Please also note that the most violent and underdeveloped countries are also the most religious ones.

I don't know if that's true, but frankly, I couldn't care less. Not for the people, though. I just don't see how one could draw any conclusions from that.

Your attitude that it's best to give up judgment and independence to follow a leader who decides what's good and bad is precisely what turns average people into Nazi goons, suicide bombers or militia who slaughter their own families.
If that's really what you call "good", you're simply a sociopath by pretty much everyone's definition.

So you do agree it depends on the leader if giving up judgement and independence is a good idea? Of course, you better had a good leader - be that god, society or yourself.

[Akatosh]

Did we learn anything from that?

"Giving all authority to one person who says it's for your own good is a bad, bad idea"?

As for the drawing of conclusions, you'd expect your god to be nice to believers. Which, according to statistics, he isn't. Of course, none of this can beat the awesome power of anecdotal "evidence" of god helping things along that could/might/would have happened anyway!

[smiley]

I read them, and still don't know which one states that it's okay (or even good) to stone these people.

3.Mo 20:13 "If a man also lies with a man, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

[Jim Reed]

Nice to believers...
What is nice, and what are believers to you?

[Vince Twelve]

I read them, and still don't know which one states that it's okay (or even good) to stone these people.

3.Mo 20:13 "If a man also lies with a man, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

I'm a bible literalist, so as long as you do it standing up, you're good.

[Nacho]

God made the ten commandments so that people who didn't realize what a bad thing to do is, don't make mistakes before they know that they are mistakes.

Wait, you are saying that there was no ethical code telling what the Ten Commandments tell before they were given to Moses?

False. They were... And some of them were much rich and extense than the ten commandments...

That's  why we need a God? To give us something we managed to get without his help? man... The more I know about that "God", the more convinced I am that he is a truly incompetent.

[Matti]

Yeah, I think you got my point! It's a totally different concept, isn't it! The bible makes so much sense (at least, to me that is ): It's just that "I can decide what's good and evil on my own"-attitude that in the story of Adam and Eve gets between them and their maker. They weren't created with that attitude but somehow they got to this point. In the core it is so not about moral. If good=god (and his will), and evil=opposition to that, it's the relationship between god and human that is concerned. So by turning from god to themselve,s Adam and Eve turned in their relationship with god from friend to enemy.

Whoa, if everyone would think like you, I'd be really afraid that Huntington's "Clash of the cultures" would become true*. If you strictly follow your own gods plans- without your "own judgement and independency", then there necessarily must be war between religions. If you take the first few commandments seriously, that is.

* Well, he mixed up cultures and religion, so "Clash of the religions" would be a more adequate term.

Oh, and did I mention world war II? So much on "moral sense".

Yeah, it's funny how believing christians can turn into killing machines, isn't it?

Hahahaha, you all make me laugh =D

Yeah... and vice versa...

Anyone can learn why going against the ten commandments is wrong,

Those commandments - without putting them into context and relating them to a certain situation - are as stupid as trying to divide mankind/life into "good" and "evil".

If a guy would have shot Hitler, would that be an evil action? If a poor homless guy would steal some bread from the bakery to survive - would that be a reason to throw him in hell after he passed away in winter?

I have my own standards and morals and that is much smarter then following some lines written thousands of years ago...

Then the big war came. You have to imagine what that meant to the people and how their whole thinking got shattered. Did we learn anything from that?

Yes, we did. Though I'm not considering the average german as a smart person, something like that won't happen again. And I don't think Europe will see any wars again (unless Italy's fascists will become more powerful than they already are, that is  )

Also, without considering WW2 too much - take a look at the situation before the 60s - the mothers had to stay in the kitchen, the fathers were authorities and the kids had nothing to say, but behave 'properly', without questioning anything, no matter how stupid it may be. Morals and (equality) rights are being continuously developed and that's a good thing. If we'd go after the bible, we'd still live in the middle ages.

Wow, people post too quickly, I have a hard time keeping on track..

[Misj']

I read them, and still don't know which one states that it's okay (or even good) to stone these people.

3.Mo 20:13 "If a man also lies with a man, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Thanks
Leviticus 20:13 wasn't in the list I found (and while it doesn't say by stoning, it does speaks of death) so that's why I missed it.

[ThreeOhFour]

If only the threads started about game design topics and the like got this much activity...

I'm sure we all agree that the perception of anything is relative to your circumstances, and therefore we'd be able to argue about this sort of thing all day.

At least Miguel got his wish for a thread about religion 

[guitar_hero]

Wait, you are saying that there was no ethical code telling what the Ten Commandments tell before they were given to Moses?

False. They were... And some of them were much rich and extense than the ten commandments...

That's  why we need a God? To give us something we managed to get without his help? man... The more I know about that "God", the more convinced I am that he is a truly incompetent.

How much did you people deal with the stuff you're posting about? Don't take this personally, and I'm not referring to you only, Nacho. But there are some rather strange ideas of what the bible might actually tell and what's complete nonsense.

The ten commandments are gods will on how people should be living together, right. But they are no moral codex. At least their intent never was to make the hebrews to better people. This wouldn't have worked anyway. Not because they were hebrew or not that high developed or too dumb, but because they were human and humans can either be friends of god (then they are called good) or enemies (in that case they're called evil). Following a rule doesn't make one a friend of god. (I think that that rule goes for most relationships). The ten commandments show how we as humans are thinking and acting against gods will, against himself. One might try to keep them all (seriously though, who wants that?) but will it find impossible. Now faith is not about learnig how to follow the rules and becoming "good" enough to go to heaven. Faith is about receiving forgiveness and learning how to trust god again, to be friends. Maybe that answers the question about who should be called a 'believer', too.

And Mr. Matti: No. I don't think you have thought that through.

[Jim Reed]

God made the ten commandments so that people who didn't realize what a bad thing to do is, don't make mistakes before they know that they are mistakes.

Wait, you are saying that there was no ethical code telling what the Ten Commandments tell before they were given to Moses?

False. They were... And some of them were much rich and extense than the ten commandments...

That's  why we need a God? To give us something we managed to get without his help? man... The more I know about that "God", the more convinced I am that he is a truly incompetent.

Nacho, the commandments are things you can realise as being good without reading/knowing about/have been told about them. If you don't realize what's good for you yet, you can read them and follow them untill you do.

Like eg. a flight manual, describing procedures for a stall. You can read the manual and do what it says and come out of it alive, or you can survive many stalls untill you figure out the answer yourself.

[Jim Reed]

Those commandments - without putting them into context and relating them to a certain situation - are as stupid as trying to divide mankind/life into "good" and "evil".

If a guy would have shot Hitler, would that be an evil action? If a poor homless guy would steal some bread from the bakery to survive - would that be a reason to throw him in hell after he passed away in winter?

I have my own standards and morals and that is much smarter then following some lines written thousands of years ago...

Yeah, killing Hitler would be a sin, and stealing also.
But why would you try to convince Hitler that he's wrong and why would you ask for bread when it's easier to kill and steal?
The path to heaven is not easy. I hope you get the sarcastic point here.

I apologise for the double post.

[Nacho]

Jim... Can you read?

Did I told the Ten Commandments are bad? Where? Quote it, please.

I said: "They are not original, so, we don't need a God to give us something we already had".

Clear?