Summer means no religion or politics?

[MrColossal]

Well, as I'm not prone to say things I can't stand behind, I'll say that I do prayer healing, alebit it has some angles, if you are sick, just PM me and I'll se what I can do.

Quick question, I'm serious here because I believe this is very important:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39120000/jpg/_39120806_amputee203ap.jpg

Can you bring the arms and hands back to full working order on this child?

If so, how? Also, please do! If not, why not?

[Jim Reed]

Well, as I'm not prone to say things I can't stand behind, I'll say that I do prayer healing, alebit it has some angles, if you are sick, just PM me and I'll se what I can do.

Quick question, I'm serious here because I believe this is very important:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39120000/jpg/_39120806_amputee203ap.jpg

Can you bring the arms and hands back to full working order on this child?

If so, how? Also, please do! If not, why not?

Well, first thing's first. I actually don't make people grow limbs or cure disiases, but ask forgivness for their sins from God, and the extent that He helps them is all up to Him.

And if you are wondering what could an innocent child could sin, it can be that his parents, grandparents etc. or a member of family have commited it and the punishment may come to this child. Belive it or not, that is the way things work.

On the other hand I would need a few things also.
A sentence said in thruth, or writen to me from the recipient that he acknowledges God as lord.
Exactly; I -name and surname- acknowledge God as lord.

The permission of the recipient that I can pray for him.

Some form of compensation as it's forbiden for me to work this kind of thing for free.

Amognst other things, I need an licence/approval of a man that heals via prayers and has the licence allready, which, I have.

[Matti]

And if you are wondering what could an innocent child could sin, it can be that his parents, grandparents etc. or a member of family have commited it and the punishment may come to this child.

Oh my god*, are you serious? Is that really what you're believing in? Why do you worship such a cruel 'lord' who randomly punishs human beings I wonder?

Belive it or not, that is the way things work.

Yeah, believe it... or not!.


* I'm aware of the irony of me using that term. 

[Jim Reed]

Yes I am serious, and I believe this is the way things work.

Why do I belive in such a God?
Why do you want to know that?

[Tuomas]

sheesh, I'm going to have really handicapped kids then. Perhaps I should better not have any at all. But who's suffer my sins then?

[Jim Reed]

I know that punishment is transferable to direct descendants, but I'm not certain would it be possible for it to transfer to other relatives such as sisters, brothers, couisns and such.
So to conclude: very likely that you would be held accountable.

[Akatosh]

Well, as I'm not prone to say things I can't stand behind, I'll say that I do prayer healing, alebit it has some angles, if you are sick, just PM me and I'll se what I can do.

Then get thee to a university. They'll be pretty excited to have proof that prayer healing works. Oh, and while you're at it, I'm short-sighted. 

Well, I don't know about different material clothes being covered in the ten commandments, but if you would break any of them, bad things will happen.

It's not in the ten commandments, but it is in the Book Leviticus, Old Testament.

I can't seem to rember that it says: Thou shall not kill, it's bad.

That's almost literally the wording in the ten commandments: "Thou shalt not kill".

I hope you understand.

Not really, I'm afraid. But if the saying means that large bodies of mass attract smaller bodies of mass, it's a very smart saying indeed.

I don't know who could have gotten in the mind of an animal to comprehend what do they recognise, as it is a thought, and I don't know that it is possible to know what others think.

Well, it's not possible to read thoughts as of yet, but they do things like examine spots they couldn't normally see and all that. For example, the article I read said that the chimpanzee in question scrutinized the interior of its mouth and used a straw to remove some food rests from between its teeth, so it's quite likely it did, indeed, understand what the reflection meant, and has to have at least a shadowy sense of self-awareness.

In this instance, I am yet unable to prove it's truthfullnes, but I will say that, as the other knowledge that I gathered in the same way (from a the same, more knowedgable man) was truthfull, I think that this one is truth, too.

Appeal To Authority isn't a valid argument, I'm afraid. I'm willing to believe what my Computer Science professor has to say about, say, the Von Neumann architecture, but I'd take his comments on, say, classical literature with as much of a grain of salt as those of average Joe.

Yes I am serious, and I believe this is the way things work.

Seriously? You believe that an innocent child would be punished for what somebody completly else has done? How would that be just? Sorry, I'll have to call Poe.

[Vince Twelve]

Misj':

I can see that we have a lot of semantic differences still, so I'll just put that stuff behind us instead of picking on your words or trying to explain myself where you picked on mine except to say that clearly I should have said that science helps lead to products such as cars, medicine, etc rather than directly producing them, and a scientific paper doesn't actually change, but new papers are written than debunk old ones and they become adopted into the scientific dialog in place of the old.  So assumption, hypothesis, whatever as long as we know what we're talking about...

But I guess we disagree on to what extent science is actually progressing and helping our world.  I, maybe because I'm a bit of an optimist, think that science is doing an overwhelming amount of good in the world, but is often being hampered by capitalism, politics, and yes, religion.  And you seem to think that it's stagnant and corrupted and flawed at its basest ideals.  (I don't want to put words into your mouth, so let me know if that's not accurate)

And since neither of us can produce any hard scientific (heh) data to decide how many scientific pursuits are being affected significantly (hard to quantify) by capitalism, or the conclusion being drawn before designing the experiment, or whatever.  And how do you compare, say, the tests regarding the safety of an axiety pill being affected by a drug company that wants to rush to market to beat a competitor against a pure and uncorrupted pursuit of science looking for the "god particle" at the LHC in Cern (an assumption on my part, I know, but just as an example).

So, determining or measuring how many false conclusions are reached and adopted into the scientific dialog by corrupt studies or too many asumptions or whatever becomes as unlikely as settling the god debate on an online forum dedicated to a free Adventure game making software.  There's nothing quantifiable to build data and compare against.

HOWEVER! The affects of science are evident in our everyday world.  You say that science is just about the mechanics, but the mechanics go so deep in creating the products that we use.  A way long time ago, a scientist hypothesized and tested and concluded that certain types of metals are better than others for conducting electricity.  His conclusions led to certain metals being used more often for the job.  Another guy hypothesized a way to do the same thing but smaller, and tested several different things until he had a smaller conductor.  This process was continued by hundreds, probably thousands, of scientists who all first had an idea or hypothesis about improving or utilizing the discoveries that came before them, they devised experiments for verifying their hypotheses, and they formed conclusions, allowing others, in turn to make new hypotheses.  The result is the CPU being as small and fast as it is today. 

And tons of scientists are employed by big companies like Intel who want them to follow the proper scientific procedures to get the best results, which turns into the best product, which attracts the most consumers, which makes money for the company.  So in those cases, capitalism drives science rather than corrupts it.  I doubt Intel would be happy with an employee who formed a conclusion, ran tests designed to support that conclusion, fudged some numbers, presented his conclusion, had a product made, and the product failed to perform.

Or maybe we disagree on the semantics of the word science and what it entails?

So, I'm back to good science = good.  Bad science = bad.  Agreed?  And we'll just agree to disagree about the proportion of good science to bad since there's no real way to objectively quantify it.

[Snarky]

I have, at best (though that adjective doesn't really seem to fit), skimmed the thread, but let me say a few words about science:

Yes, the way scientific work is performed in practice often falls somewhat short of the idealized model. Scientists are driven by ego, funding, politics, "publish or perish", stubbornness and fads. They get lazy and sloppy, they cut corners, they fudge data, they rely on their intuition, they accept things on the basis of authority when they shouldn't. Still, on the whole it more or less works. Speaking purely pragmatically, science has been fantastically successful. In pretty much every field, from physics to chemistry to medicine to biology to astronomy to linguistics to anthropology to source criticism to computer science, science has enabled us to come up with measurably better explanations (in the sense of being able to make more accurate predictions) for observed phenomena, and often to use these explanations to create new and useful technologies.

Science is a little bit like democracy, in that it doesn't always live up to its own standards, and can look messy, ugly and corrupt up close. Still, it works a lot better than anything else.

So why does it work? Well, I think in part it's because scientists are in competition, so you have a somewhat adversarial relationship where they keep each other on their toes and check the worst abuses. Secondly, just like in a democracy, there's a shared and generally understood ideal of how it should work, which sets a standard for how to deal out criticism and praise. Finally, and I would guess most importantly, reality provides the ultimate authority. In empirical science, if you get it wrong, observations and calculations will eventually expose your error. If your theory or your model isn't, to a good approximation, how reality behaves, it simply isn't going to work.

That's why, although scientists may not be looking for ultimate truth, their work provides an ever fuller and ever more detailed depiction of reality "as it is", or at least as it is to us. There will always be unanswered questions, but I believe that everything we can know about the universe, we can know by science.

(BTW, I've known a number of scientists--in fact, most of my best friends are scientists--and although they're just people, with the same prejudices and biases and assumptions as everyone else, they are all sincere about their discipline and about the scientific process. And I've reviewed papers myself, and seen for myself that it more or less works. While weak papers from well-known researchers do sometimes get published on the back of their authors' reputation, people who know the field are usually able to tell that it's not a good paper, and will treat it accordingly.)

[Oliwerko]

And if you are wondering what could an innocent child could sin, it can be that his parents, grandparents etc. or a member of family have commited it and the punishment may come to this child. Belive it or not, that is the way things work.

This is one of the worst sides of the...let's call it "God theory".
I can understand a lot, but in no way I could understand how come that someone born with no legs has just the bad luck that his grampa sinned. Being punished for other one's sins? I don't know, somehow I can't swallow this one.

I was once given an answer to this question by "involved" people. It went "and where's written that you have to have legs when you're born?" Something along the lines that there is no guarantee you will be healthy when born. Those who are, are just privileged. I as why, WHY the hell are they privileged?

I call myself a believer, yet not a believer in God as Jim presents him. I believe in something, call it what you like, something higher. Why do I believe in him/her/it? One, it's comfortable - when you pray for something - and it goes well, you're happy because "the God did it". The same if something goes wrong. You have someone you can talk to anytime. I could go on, these are just ways to lighten up, and wheter or not the God did the thing you prayed for or not is left for speculation. I personally think that some coincidences are by far unbelievable to be just coincidences. I believe that this higher force has some "control over randomness" and can somehow help you,kill you, make you ill, cure you etc. if he/she/it wants. Why this force does it, or why does it not do these things at times, I don't know. I don't care. But I refuse to take a God that's served to me "as is", just "Take this, this is truth, ask no questions and have faith" or things like "I take God as the lord" or anything like that. I believe in my "custom religion", not in something someone tells me is true despite no evidence. I have my common sense, so I use it.

Now please, question my belief, I would be glad to discover more about my own beliefs.
Seriously, question it, I will be grateful.

[Ghost]

I totally question your belief. Feelin' better? 

[Jim Reed]

Can't write more now because I'm working, but I'll post here when I finish.

[Nacho]

I still have questions... Don't divert my atention asking me about Big Bang... I am just a mere, humble and stupid atheistic!  I do not have (or claimed to have) the answers... There are things I do not know. But you are enlighted with the light of a superior knowleadge, so, again, please, answer this:

Some years ago "believers" believed that eart was created something like 6,000 years ago, in 6 days, and every animal, including men, where created in that period. They were CONVINCED it was true. Nowadays believers (Or at least, most of them) say: "Well, you know? That was poetry! Metaphors and all that... We know God did not created the Universe that way... But we are CONVINCED he was there, and he created the universe more or less in the way scientist say"

-How can you, knowing that the "conviction" of the "old believers" was uncorrect, be so sure that your "conviction" is the correct one?
-Do gorillas have a soul? When were humans awarded with a soul? Homo Habilis? Homo Erectus? Did neandertals had a sould? If so, why God allowed them to be terminated?
-If the best and kindiest golden-heart person in earth is born in a place where they don' t know God and he does not have the possibility to become a believer... can he go to heaven?
-Can Hitler go to heaven if he confesses his sins before passing away, if his confession was "correct" according to catholic standards? If he can... what is the point of behaving propperly, if you can fix it all at the end? If he can' t, how can God, a being of superior intelligence, do a sacrament that does not work?
-Is it okay to force your sister in law to marry her brother in law if she widowed shortly before and has no kids?
-Who can go to heaven? Christians? Those who follow the religions of the book, muslims and jews can go to heaven as well?
-What happens with those who believe in Shiva?
-What happens with the souls of those who were in earth before the old testament was written?
-What happens to you if you made a mortal sin one week before it was written in the Old Testament?
-What happens to you if you make a mortal sin that has been recently added to the Old testament, but you had no possible way to read it because the last edition of the book hasn't arrived yet to your local book store?
-God can ask me to do bad things. He asked Abraham to kill his son, and he was going to do it, but fortunatelly (Thank's God, better...) HE stopped him. But he can ask us to do bad things. If he asks us to do bad things... are we good christians if we do it? How can we distinguish between a real God commitement and one created by a mental disorder? If the devil, disguised as God, tells us to do something bad, are we sinners or not, if we believe it was God who asked us to do it? How do we judge people who acted bad if they say it was God who told them to do it?

When bad things happens, some believers say "That's because he gave us free of will... Bad human acts are our fault, not his. He can't intervene" Okay, but he acted before to kill bad humans. He purgued the humanity with the universal deluge: Why he acted before and he does not now? Can he act again, if out level of imperfection becomes too high? How could he, being infinitelly intelligent, create a humanity that was so unperfect that he had to purgue it? If our kids are not as perfect as we wanted, can we kill them drowning them in the bath tube?

Still waiting for answers. Believers, you have three options:

1)Reply to me with an unified, full of wisdom replies, prooving me that the knowleadge of the believers comes from something from above.
2)Reply to me with non unified answers... prooving that "God" gives answers that are argueable... as any other human created ethic code.
3)Try to divert the topic prooving that your "knowleadge" is not superior at all to the one I have.

Let' s see...

[Tuomas]

I'm no believer, no way, but I'd like to fill in the questionaire too, if I may

-How can you, knowing that the "conviction" of the "old believers" was uncorrect, be so sure that your "conviction" is the correct one?
This is a good question. I've never really got an answer to this really. But if it's really believing, doesn't it mean, that you aren't sure, I mean, in the real sense of the word. That's how I understand it

-Do gorillas have a soul? When were humans awarded with a soul? Homo Habilis? Homo Erectus? Did neandertals had a sould? If so, why God allowed them to be terminated?
If we have souls, what ever they are, so do animals. But what the hell is a soul anyway, and what is it good for? I mean, it's used to explain psyche, ideas, thoughts, right? Gorillas are known to have learned signal language by the way, take note on that people, they're not completely stupid and hollow. And God's not into just souls, his into you... I think, I mean, what's the physical body there for otherwise? The function of the soul is pretty unclear to me.

-If the best and kindiest golden-heart person in earth is born in a place where they don' t know God and he does not have the possibility to become a believer... can he go to heaven?
No, beciause heaven's reserved for mormons. Seriously though, you go to heaven through believing in Jesus, and these 'forgotten souls' are actually worth the same to God as monkeys, basically they're not human at all, not worth the spot in the ivory tower. That's why we were wholly justified in our crusades and colonization, bringing religion and corrupted politics to poor countries. To help them in the afterlife, which is the one that matters.

-Can Hitler go to heaven if he confesses his sins before passing away, if his confession was "correct" according to catholic standards? If he can... what is the point of behaving propperly, if you can fix it all at the end? If he can' t, how can God, a being of superior intelligence, do a sacrament that does not work?
The point is, that a person, having acted like Hitler throughout his time is less likely to truly regret his actions than Laura Ingalls, who's got nothing on her. But should he, then yes, because the regret would be genuine, and God forgives everything and everyone, as long as they really want to be forgiven.

-Is it okay to force your sister in law to marry her brother in law if she widowed shortly before and has no kids?
I don't understand the question at all, but no, it's never okay in my book

-Who can go to heaven? Christians? Those who follow the religions of the book, muslims and jews can go to heaven as well?
I reckon they all have their own heavens. Or else there's a huge war going on in there, and I certainly don't want to go!

-What happens with the souls of those who were in earth before the old testament was written?
I suppose at that time there were so few men, that God knew everyone personally, and didn't have to make churches spread his word. So they were basically living next door to him.

-What happens to you if you made a mortal sin one week before it was written in the Old Testament?
A mortal sin in itself is a paradox

-What happens to you if you make a mortal sin that has been recently added to the Old testament, but you had no possible way to read it because the last edition of the book hasn't arrived yet to your local book store?
You get terrorists shouting at you asking for an apology or demnding your death, but the good society will protect you for man is more powerful than God.

-God can ask me to do bad things. He asked Abraham to kill his son, and he was going to do it, but fortunatelly (Thank's God, better...) HE stopped him. But he can ask us to do bad things. If he asks us to do bad things... are we good christians if we do it? How can we distinguish between a real God commitement and one created by a mental disorder? If the devil, disguised as God, tells us to do something bad, are we sinners or not, if we believe it was God who asked us to do it? How do we judge people who acted bad if they say it was God who told them to do it?
If my God asked my personally to kill my son, I'd probably comfirm him, that he's not my God anymore. I mean, sounds like a sadistic shithead, but weren't they all at that time, and I guess it's just a figure of speach.

[Nacho]

Interesting replies, my friend, but I would like to read the answers of a "believer" to see if their belief in God makes his knowleadge distinguishable from the knowleadge of those who do not.  

EDIT:

-Is it okay to force your sister in law to marry her brother in law if she widowed shortly before and has no kids?
I don't understand the question at all, but no, it's never okay in my book

Would you understand the question if I tell you that this is preciselly what bible tells you to do? 

[Tuomas]

It would actually... I reckon it's in the old testament again. I mean, the new one has some sense to it at least. Let me do the math here... So she's to marry the dead husband's brother? Ick.

[Jim Reed]

Then get thee to a university. They'll be pretty excited to have proof that prayer healing works. Oh, and while you're at it, I'm short-sighted.  

Thanks for the tip. =D

It's not in the ten commandments, but it is in the Book Leviticus, Old Testament.

I can't say that I read the bible, or claim that I know everything, but I too wear clothes from different materials, and I can't find anything wrong with that.

That's almost literally the wording in the ten commandments: "Thou shalt not kill".

That is the commandment.
And you said it; "almost"
I say that killing people is wrong, but I haven't killed nobody yet, so I can's say what punishment is coming to people who did.

Not really, I'm afraid. But if the saying means that large bodies of mass attract smaller bodies of mass, it's a very smart saying indeed.

Yes it does, and you guessed correctly at my meaning.

Well, it's not possible to read thoughts as of yet, but they do things like examine spots they couldn't normally see and all that. For example, the article I read said that the chimpanzee in question scrutinized the interior of its mouth and used a straw to remove some food rests from between its teeth, so it's quite likely it did, indeed, understand what the reflection meant, and has to have at least a shadowy sense of self-awareness.

Well, a chipanzee can pick it's teeth or it's fingernails without a mirror, too =D
But it can't focus it's awarenes inside itself as humans do. This I have yet not confirmed to be thruth myself, but I'll belive it untill I prove to my self otherwise.

Appeal To Authority isn't a valid argument, I'm afraid. I'm willing to believe what my Computer Science professor has to say about, say, the Von Neumann architecture, but I'd take his comments on, say, classical literature with as much of a grain of salt as those of average Joe.

I'm willing to belive the man that said the fact about animals (beforementioned), because I think that he knows about it more than me, but I would suspect anything he said about something I know I know better than him.

Seriously? You believe that an innocent child would be punished for what somebody completly else has done? How would that be just? Sorry, I'll have to call Poe.

"Seriously?"
I'll repeat myself, Yes I'm serious about it.

"somebody completly else"
'll repeat myself, direct descendant, and that excludes "somebody completly else" as the child's, let's say, father or mother is not "completly else" being that the child in question would be a product of it's mother and father, therefore part of them in a way.

How would that be just?
God's justice is God's bussiness, and I can't advocate on His behalf, what is just or not.
Being just=D me, I would say that a just man is impartial.
On another note, you cannot get a punishment from God if the sin that brings it is not commited. That seems just to me.

As in nature, you cannot create something out of nothing, so did Jesus create wine out of water, and not nothing.
Don't think that the child is suffering for nothing, because it didn't do anything. It maybe that it's parents or granparents etc. sined in the past, and the punishmment has come to the baby now.
I know a few examples by expirience in this.

[Misj']

I'm sorry I don't have time to continue in this thread, but time and work is catching up with me. I did send some PM's to some people to create some closure on those topics. If you weren't one of them than I didn't find your subject interesting enough (ok, enough with the sarcasm).

But I'm sure you can all continue this discussion without me.

Ps. One small thing...Nacho, from your questions (and earlier posts) I reckon that you consider Catholicism as THE religion (sacraments, mortal sins, catholic standards). Why is that? - Is that just a frustration about the way they behave where you live, or is it because they are (claim to be) the original Christian sect (well, they don't call themselves a sect, but sociologically Christianity and the Islam as sects of Judaism)? - Honest question, because I haven't been able to figure it out from your posts.

[Babar]

* Babar is actually foolish enough to fan the flames of this little fire

Hey Nacho! Just for the heck of it, I decided to tackle some of your questions. I haven't gone through Tuomas's answers, so apologies for any repeats). From the outset, I'd warn you that you probably won't be satisfied with most of my answers.

Also, I realise you might be a very competitive personality , but I'm really not here to participate in some kind of Ultimate Forum Wars against you. I'm here simply for the interesting discussion, I'm not "in it to win it", because realistically, it doesn't really matter who "wins". I'm just telling you this so that you understand that my responses aren't a....challenge directed to you, and I'm not setting up any huge points to bring your argument crashing down or anything (although you might be doing that? I dunno).

Whew...so anyway...

-How can you, knowing that the "conviction" of the "old believers" was uncorrect, be so sure that your "conviction" is the correct one?
Does it matter, or even make a difference? One is a physical question, and the other is somewhat metaphysical. People being CONVINCED of something isn't in any way indicative of the truth. Now if someone were to still, in this day and age claim something along the lines of "everything suddenly popped up in a discrete fashion over a period of 6 literal days a couple thousand years ago", they'd need to provide some evidence to prove this, since it has been understood to have happened differently.


-Do gorillas have a soul? When were humans awarded with a soul? Homo Habilis? Homo Erectus? Did neandertals had a sould? If so, why God allowed them to be terminated?
Do they? Does it matter? Not to me. Perhaps to the gorilla. I'm not sure what you mean by terminated either....do you mean to ask why they went extinct? Once again, I don't know...everything has to die, I guess. I'm not god.


-If the best and kindiest golden-heart person in earth is born in a place where they don' t know God and he does not have the possibility to become a believer... can he go to heaven?
According to my personal beliefs? Yes.


-Can Hitler go to heaven if he confesses his sins before passing away, if his confession was "correct" according to catholic standards? If he can... what is the point of behaving propperly, if you can fix it all at the end? If he can' t, how can God, a being of superior intelligence, do a sacrament that does not work?
This isn't really directed to me, I guess, since I'm not catholic, but I suppose I can interpret the question to respond about my own beliefs. It is an interesting question, anyhow, and It'd be nice to see it further discussed: I mean, if a person is a horrible, horrible person, the very personification of evil (Hitler, if you will ), is there any way they can be redeemed? What if they did horrible horrible things, and then later followed with very very good deeds? Or if they just repented and asked forgiveness (of God, of the people who were wronged, whatever)? Or what if (more interestingly) they did very very good deeds, followed by horrible horrible things?
Personally, I think if the person repented, and did their best to right their wrongs, they'd have a good chance.


-Is it okay to force your sister in law to marry her brother in law if she widowed shortly before and has no kids?
Forcing? I guess not....


-Who can go to heaven? Christians? Those who follow the religions of the book, muslims and jews can go to heaven as well?
Once again, my personal beliefs? You believe in God and do good stuff, you've got a solid chance. Or if you are not knowledgeable about God (I think you asked this question earlier), then you can't really be blamed, so you've got a good solid chance as well (depending how good you were?).


-What happens with the souls of those who were in earth before the old testament was written?
-What happens to you if you made a mortal sin one week before it was written in the Old Testament?
-What happens to you if you make a mortal sin that has been recently added to the Old testament, but you had no possible way to read it because the last edition of the book hasn't arrived yet to your local book store?
Use your best judgement. A "mortal sin" (no idea what that is, actually, sorry) would probably be just as obviously wrong before it was written in a book as afterwards. As for the minor stuff, no I don't think that matters.


-God can ask me to do bad things. He asked Abraham to kill his son, and he was going to do it, but fortunatelly (Thank's God, better...) HE stopped him. But he can ask us to do bad things. If he asks us to do bad things... are we good christians if we do it? How can we distinguish between a real God commitement and one created by a mental disorder? If the devil, disguised as God, tells us to do something bad, are we sinners or not, if we believe it was God who asked us to do it? How do we judge people who acted bad if they say it was God who told them to do it?
Bad stuff would be bad stuff, so I'd think it'd be against God's law to do that anyway. As for judging other people (if that is necessary), I'm not really christian, but I believe there is something in the Bible about being measured by your fruits?


-When bad things happens, some believers say "That's because he gave us free of will... Bad human acts are our fault, not his. He can't intervene" Okay, but he acted before to kill bad humans. He purged the humanity with the universal deluge: Why he acted before and he does not now? Can he act again, if out level of imperfection becomes too high? How could he, being infinitelly intelligent, create a humanity that was so unperfect that he had to purge it? If our kids are not as perfect as we wanted, can we kill them drowning them in the bath tube?
Didn't the Bible say something along the lines of the flood being the last time such a measure would be taken? Also, I've noticed a trend where you are taking death as "bad" or "punishment" or "evil". I'd just like to point out that it is the natural order of things. Everything will die eventually (naturally of course, I'm certainly not advocating infanticide). The difference between dying of a heart attack and of being murdered would only be evident on the murderer. The dead person is dead either way.


Most of my answers are not going to match every other "believer" who could answer that. But you knew that, right? I mean, you can't expect everyone to have the same answer, and them not having the same answer doesn't really prove anything at all.

[Phemar]

Another one from the old testament says you shouldn't shave or cut the hair on your temples...